Re: I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?
On 11/24/21 7:38 AM, Chuck Harris wrote: Depending on the manufacturer, the lead arrangement had another
more practical purpose, it made capacitor orientation irrelevant.
The outer leads were welded to the aluminum can, and were by
convention the negative leads. The inner lead was positive.
It is virtually always the case with radial leaded aluminum
electrolytic capacitors that the outer most lead(s) will be the
negative lead, and the most central lead(s) the positive.
There were some tantalum caps in a similar package that were all
doubles, as I recall. I forgot to mention this. The capacitors in question here look like typical cylindrical Al electrolytics, but they have a third lead coming out from the *top* of the Al can. See the datasheet for the Vishay/Sprague 672D series. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
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Re: I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?
On 11/24/21 7:38 AM, Chuck Harris wrote: Depending on the manufacturer, the lead arrangement had another
more practical purpose, it made capacitor orientation irrelevant.
The outer leads were welded to the aluminum can, and were by
convention the negative leads. The inner lead was positive.
It is virtually always the case with radial leaded aluminum
electrolytic capacitors that the outer most lead(s) will be the
negative lead, and the most central lead(s) the positive.
There were some tantalum caps in a similar package that were all
doubles, as I recall. Yes there are. IBM used two types on boards from mainframe/midrange systems, three- and four-lead capacitors. They're usually +-+ or +--+, to solve the orientation problem. These boards were typically not hand-assembled, but making their orientation irrelevant allowed them to use loose parts in vibratory hopper feeders on the assembly line, rather than the more expensive and larger tape-and-reel component feeders. These capacitors come in both the yellow dipped tantalum bead styles, usually no more than 1/2" tall, as well as small black molded rectangular blocks, about 3/8" tall and anywhere from 3/16" to 3/8" wide, and 1/8" thick or less. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
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Re: 70900A Artek CLIP Manual
The 70900X and 70XXXX power supplies were never bought outside (obvious, the 3 lead capacitors). The A3 power supplply board is on the 70900B CLIP
On Wednesday, November 24, 2021, 02:09:16 PM GMT+1, Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> wrote:
The power supply's schematic probably lives in one of many Chinese
power supply manufacturer's archives.
By the time the 70000K series came around, it was common for HP
to buy their power supplies from outside vendors (OEMs).? The OEM's
supplies were inexpensive (a relative term), and were considered
to be interchangeable.? They were not generally repaired, but rather
swapped out as a unit.
Switching supplies have been refined to a point where the IC's, etc
are arranged so that they can be used on single sided boards.? For
safety, because of the voltages involved, they were laid out in a
straight forward way.? UL requires the line side, and the grounded
side be well marked with zebra lines, and warnings.
There are only two topologies in common use: 1) bootstrapped, and 2)
power factor correcting.
Bootstraped will always have a pair of largish HV electrolytic
capacitors on the AC end of the supply that rectify/double the power
line voltage.? You can count on there being a 120V/240V line selection
switch/strap somewhere.
Power factor correcting will usually have a single large HV
electrolytic capacitor, 900V or so, that can take any line voltage from
90V to 300V, without any user intervention.
Anyway, there are books galore on the two normal topologies, and once
you have determined which you have, it is quite easy to follow the signals
across the circuit board... the board is as good as the schematics the
Chinese made for these supplies.
Those that fix these sorts of boards don't use schematics, but rather
use their senses (eyes, nose...), ESR meters, and knowledge of the parts
that generally fail.
-Chuck Harris
On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 19:52:15 -0800 "Gene Silvernail" < genesilvernail@...> wrote: > Working on the PS board of the 70900A and bought the CLIP from Artek. > Beautifully clear images, excellent for what's there. Unfortunately, > the one thing I really needed it for isn't, that being the PS board. > Anyone have any idea where that would that be found? Any help is > greatly appreciated. > > Pre-Thanks > > Gene/K7QHO > > Attachments: > dummyfile.0.part: > /g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/attachment/120425/0> > > > >
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Re: 70900A Artek CLIP Manual
The power supply's schematic probably lives in one of many Chinese power supply manufacturer's archives. By the time the 70000K series came around, it was common for HP to buy their power supplies from outside vendors (OEMs). The OEM's supplies were inexpensive (a relative term), and were considered to be interchangeable. They were not generally repaired, but rather swapped out as a unit. Switching supplies have been refined to a point where the IC's, etc are arranged so that they can be used on single sided boards. For safety, because of the voltages involved, they were laid out in a straight forward way. UL requires the line side, and the grounded side be well marked with zebra lines, and warnings. There are only two topologies in common use: 1) bootstrapped, and 2) power factor correcting. Bootstraped will always have a pair of largish HV electrolytic capacitors on the AC end of the supply that rectify/double the power line voltage. You can count on there being a 120V/240V line selection switch/strap somewhere. Power factor correcting will usually have a single large HV electrolytic capacitor, 900V or so, that can take any line voltage from 90V to 300V, without any user intervention. Anyway, there are books galore on the two normal topologies, and once you have determined which you have, it is quite easy to follow the signals across the circuit board... the board is as good as the schematics the Chinese made for these supplies. Those that fix these sorts of boards don't use schematics, but rather use their senses (eyes, nose...), ESR meters, and knowledge of the parts that generally fail. -Chuck Harris On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 19:52:15 -0800 "Gene Silvernail" <genesilvernail@...> wrote: Working on the PS board of the 70900A and bought the CLIP from Artek.
Beautifully clear images, excellent for what's there. Unfortunately,
the one thing I really needed it for isn't, that being the PS board.
Anyone have any idea where that would that be found? Any help is
greatly appreciated.
Pre-Thanks
Gene/K7QHO
Attachments:
dummyfile.0.part:
/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/attachment/120425/0
|
Re: I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?
Depending on the manufacturer, the lead arrangement had another more practical purpose, it made capacitor orientation irrelevant. The outer leads were welded to the aluminum can, and were by convention the negative leads. The inner lead was positive. It is virtually always the case with radial leaded aluminum electrolytic capacitors that the outer most lead(s) will be the negative lead, and the most central lead(s) the positive. There were some tantalum caps in a similar package that were all doubles, as I recall. -Chuck Harris On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 20:03:55 -0800 "Gene Silvernail" <genesilvernail@...> wrote: Thanks Kuba,
Yeh coming from the era of tubes I had assumed a dual cap…so much for
assuming.
Now that’s starting to make sense with the single component
designator, but leaves the question which 2 out of the 3 leads make
up the capacitor and what purpose does the third lead serve. Is it a
non-electrical, mechanical only?
I’m working without a schematic even though I bought the CLIP from
Artek which is minus the PS board.
Pre-Thanks
Gene/K7QHO
From: [email protected]
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Kuba Ober
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2021 7:26 PM To:
[email protected] Subject: Re:
[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old;
good or bad omen?
My assumption would be that the number of legs has not much to do
with anything: it’s a single capacitor each with 3 or 4 legs. Very
common in that era. I’ e got lots of contemporaneous Tektronix
equipment that has the same capacitor styles.
The double and triple electrolytics were a thing in the vacuum tube
era.
Cheers, Kuba
23 nov. 2021 kl. 9:54 em skrev Gene Silvernail
<genesilvernail@... <mailto:genesilvernail@...> >:
?
Thanks Paul,
Just got the component location PDF on the site which provides me the
PS cap numbers; also ordered the 70900A CLIP. However, looking at
them I’m confused further with the 3 leads. Only 1 component number
associated with a dual capacitor…huh? Hopefully the schematic will
clarify this.
Regards
Gene
From: [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> > On Behalf Of Paul
Bicknell Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2021 12:56 PM To:
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re:
[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old;
good or bad omen?
Hi Gene
sorry made a mistake the 3 legged caps are on the Vishay N -cap and
can be found on the hp 70000 groups site. Regards Paul
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Re: HP 8640B - internal counter suddenly got crazy
On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 10:03 AM Emanuele Girlando via groups.io <emanuele_girlando@...> wrote:
Francesco, we cross posted.
If not EECL, what?
The most intriguing behavior is "External counter input works OK in the 0-10Mhz range, but doubles
the reading in the 10-512Mhz range (BUT not if signal is coming from output REF (rear panel) !!"
aux output you mean? One of the rear there're two output connectors, one is only for the 5 MHz (or 1 MHz) fixed internal reference. The counter input works well only between a certain range of input signal amplitude. The aux output has a fixed amplitude. So if the counter works fine with the external input at a fixed amplitude, I'd really check switch contacts first. Frank
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Re: HP 8640B - internal counter suddenly got crazy
Francesco, we cross posted.
If not EECL, what?
The most intriguing behavior is "External counter input works OK in the 0-10Mhz range, but doubles
the reading in the 10-512Mhz range (BUT not if signal is coming from output REF (rear panel) !!"
I'll double check the band switch wipers... they seem in place and none found floating inside the instrument..
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Re: HP 8640B - internal counter suddenly got crazy
On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 9:55 AM Emanuele Girlando via groups.io <emanuele_girlando@...> wrote:
I've received the manual.
I am going to go through the counter tests to isolate the fault.
I suspected the unobtainable EECL front end chip.
when that IC dies, usually the counter doesn't show any count when switched to the high frequency input.
Just in case, does anybody have experience replacing it with Motorola MC100EL31D (or with MC10EL31DG) as
described in a 1999 article from n2gx I've found on the Internet ?
I've done a similar replacement as described in the N2GX article, but that circuit didn't work for me, I've had much better success by using a proper transistor based level converter instead of the simple diode level shifter he used. I've reported my changes to its schematic on this group years ago (it was 2014 or 2015 afair). I don't recall much of the details now, my 8640B's counter is working fine since then, even better than with the original prescaler. Frank IZ8DWF
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Re: HP 8640B - internal counter suddenly got crazy
I've received the manual.
I am going to go through the counter tests to isolate the fault.
I suspected the unobtainable? EECL front end chip.
Just in case, does anybody have experience replacing it with Motorola MC100EL31D (or with MC10EL31DG) as
described in a 1999 article from n2gx I've found on the Internet ?
Thx.
Emanuele.
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Re: HP 8640B - internal counter suddenly got crazy
I don't think it's the EECL prescaler or any other EECL in the counter assembly, it usually makes the high frequency input dead. However I've succesfully replaced the EECL prescaler with a modern ECL IC, that was more than 5 years ago, but it should be found in the groups archives. In these cases, the first thing to do is get the correct schematic and manual for your 8640B serial prefix. This instrument went through a lot of different revisions and schematics can have large differences between the revisions. Once you get the correct schematic, the usual method is following the troubleshooting procedures. You need some good test equipment though. Frank IZ8DWF On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 9:11 AM george edmonds via groups.io <G6HIG@...> wrote:
You are by far more likley to have a failed counter IC, these are a unobtainable HP version of ECL logic.
George G6HIG
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Re: BASIC on the HP 3396B Integrator II ?
BTW, there was a discussion going on on the ChromForum that points out that Peak96 obviously needs a special cable to run properly:
pinout Peak 96 Data Transfer Cable Configuration:
.....DB 15 Connector..........DB 9 Connector
............1................................... 1
............2....................................3
NC........3....................................
SH........4....................................4.....SH
SH........5....................................7.....SH
NC........6....................................8.....SH
NC........7....................................
NC........8....................................
............9...................................5
NC........10..................................
NC........11..................................6.....NC
NC........12 ................................9.....NC
NC........13..................................
............14.................................2
NC........15.................................
NC = No Connection
SH = Pins shorted together
Chris
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Re: BASIC on the HP 3396B Integrator II ?
...another approach would be to look at the description of the instruments and SW that are supposed to run with the 3396B, for example the 5890 GC documentation. I added a description that details out the RS232 configuration required for the 5890 GC to connect to UniChrom.
Chris
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Re: HP 8640B - internal counter suddenly got crazy
You are by far more likley to have a failed counter IC, these are a unobtainable HP version of ECL logic.
George G6HIG
|
Re: HP 8640B - internal counter suddenly got crazy
Jon,
it worked fine until a couple of days ago.
No doubler installed.
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Re: BASIC on the HP 3396B Integrator II ?
Hello Martin,
maybe the Agilent 3396 Series Integrator BASIC Reference Guide might help here? Please see attached. The Agilent website mentions the 3396-90335 manual as obsolete (which initially was a manual for the 3396A, as far as I know), but it might be worth a request:
Chris
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Re: HP 8640B - internal counter suddenly got crazy
Bonjour I dont comprendre if it was OK and now changes or it was always that way.
Please clarify, counter indication was first OK and something changes or failed or it was always bad?
The behavior of the counters depends on the option for doubler extending the highest band to 1024 MHZ.
I am sure this is a moved or oxidized contact on the band switch.
8640B options and serial number manuals are available as free PDF perhaps from BAMA archive or on an HP legacy site.
Bon Chance
Jon
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Re: I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?
On 11/23/21 11:31 PM, Gene Silvernail wrote: All, Disregard previous 70900A power supply capacitor statements I made. A case of head? improperly arrange on my anatomy. My apologies.
What’s is now realized…duh
The blue caps on the PS are NOT duals but standard low ESR caps. The third lone lead on the one end is for mechanical purposes only no electrical. This would help in shake table testing for vibe specs, an assumption. Yes, it's mechanical; I did mention this a day or two ago, I guess it just went by. My mistake was starting without a schematic. The caps are packed side by side tight preventing a clean view of the big arrow. Markings, which on most electrolytics points to the neg terminal on axial packages. In these the marling points to the Positive terminal, not THE END, arranged radially… oh hell… you live and learn even over 70. Fortunately they're not difficult to remove on those boards. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
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Re: I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?
Not? a problem.
How technology has changed, though.? I remember single hole
electrolytics that mounted with a single nut.? Inside, I think,
may have been a boric acid solution.? Of course, the tubes in that
one had two digit numbers, IIRC.
Harvey
On 11/23/2021 11:33 PM, Gene Silvernail
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Thanks Harvey,
?
My mistakes see my other apologies.
?
Regards
Gene
?
?
Many of the typical capacitors with metal cans have more than
one ground lug, arranged in a circle.? The lugs are, IIRC,
only for grounding and mounting stability.? On the capacitors
I've seen (not the two lead ones), inside the circle formed by
the case mounting ears you'll find the hot lead of the
capacitor.?
If you remember the dual capacitors in tube equipment, the
hot leads should be inside this circle as well.
One thing to note (for instance, in the 468 series scope),
the case can be used as a jumper to tie grounds together.? The
little adaptor plates often have ties to a common ground ring,
even though the replacement capacitor only has two leads.?
You may have to run a wire from ground lug to ground lug if
they are not obviously visually connected.
Harvey
?
On 11/23/2021 11:03 PM, Gene Silvernail
wrote:
Thanks Kuba,
?
Yeh coming from the era of tubes I had
assumed a dual cap…so much for assuming.
Now that’s starting to make sense with
the single component designator, but leaves the question
which 2 out of the 3 leads make up the capacitor and what
purpose does the third lead serve. Is it a non-electrical,
mechanical only?
I’m working without a schematic even
though I bought the CLIP from Artek which is minus the PS
board.
?
Pre-Thanks
?
Gene/K7QHO
?
?
My assumption would be that the number
of legs has not much to do with anything: it’s a single
capacitor each with 3 or 4 legs. Very common in that era.
I’ e got lots of contemporaneous Tektronix equipment that
has the same capacitor styles.
The double and triple electrolytics
were a thing in the vacuum tube era.
?
Thanks Paul,
?
Just got the component location PDF
on the site which provides me the PS cap numbers; also
ordered the 70900A CLIP. However, looking at them I’m
confused further with the 3 leads. Only 1 component
number associated with a dual capacitor…huh? Hopefully
the schematic will clarify this.
?
Regards
?
Gene
?
?
Hi Gene
sorry made a mistake the 3 legged caps are on the Vishay
N -cap ?and can be found on the hp 70000 groups
site. Regards Paul?
|
Re: I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?
Thanks Harvey, ? My mistakes see my other apologies. ? Regards Gene ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Harvey White Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2021 8:20 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen? ? Many of the typical capacitors with metal cans have more than one ground lug, arranged in a circle.? The lugs are, IIRC, only for grounding and mounting stability.? On the capacitors I've seen (not the two lead ones), inside the circle formed by the case mounting ears you'll find the hot lead of the capacitor.? If you remember the dual capacitors in tube equipment, the hot leads should be inside this circle as well. One thing to note (for instance, in the 468 series scope), the case can be used as a jumper to tie grounds together.? The little adaptor plates often have ties to a common ground ring, even though the replacement capacitor only has two leads.? You may have to run a wire from ground lug to ground lug if they are not obviously visually connected. Harvey ? On 11/23/2021 11:03 PM, Gene Silvernail wrote: Thanks Kuba, ? Yeh coming from the era of tubes I had assumed a dual cap…so much for assuming. Now that’s starting to make sense with the single component designator, but leaves the question which 2 out of the 3 leads make up the capacitor and what purpose does the third lead serve. Is it a non-electrical, mechanical only? I’m working without a schematic even though I bought the CLIP from Artek which is minus the PS board. ? Pre-Thanks ? Gene/K7QHO ? ? My assumption would be that the number of legs has not much to do with anything: it’s a single capacitor each with 3 or 4 legs. Very common in that era. I’ e got lots of contemporaneous Tektronix equipment that has the same capacitor styles. The double and triple electrolytics were a thing in the vacuum tube era. ? Thanks Paul, ? Just got the component location PDF on the site which provides me the PS cap numbers; also ordered the 70900A CLIP. However, looking at them I’m confused further with the 3 leads. Only 1 component number associated with a dual capacitor…huh? Hopefully the schematic will clarify this. ? Regards ? Gene ? ? Hi Gene
sorry made a mistake the 3 legged caps are on the Vishay N -cap ?and can be found on the hp 70000 groups
site. Regards Paul?
|
Re: I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen?
All, Disregard previous 70900A power supply capacitor statements I made. A case of head? improperly arrange on my anatomy. My apologies. ? What’s is now realized…duh ? The blue caps on the PS are NOT duals but standard low ESR caps. The third lone lead on the one end is for mechanical purposes only no electrical. This would help in shake table testing for vibe specs, an assumption. ? My mistake was starting without a schematic. The caps are packed side by side tight preventing a clean view of the big arrow. Markings, which on most electrolytics points to the neg terminal on axial packages. In these the marling points to the Positive terminal, not THE END, arranged radially… oh hell… you live and learn even over 70. ? Where can a schematic for the 70900A PS board be acquired? Its not Artek. Just bought theirs and no PS data. ? Pre-thanks for all the help and again my apologies. ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Gene Silvernail via groups.io Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2021 8:04 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] I'm old 70+, the 70K system is old; good or bad omen? ? Thanks Kuba, ? Yeh coming from the era of tubes I had assumed a dual cap…so much for assuming. Now that’s starting to make sense with the single component designator, but leaves the question which 2 out of the 3 leads make up the capacitor and what purpose does the third lead serve. Is it a non-electrical, mechanical only? I’m working without a schematic even though I bought the CLIP from Artek which is minus the PS board. ? Pre-Thanks ? Gene/K7QHO ? ? My assumption would be that the number of legs has not much to do with anything: it’s a single capacitor each with 3 or 4 legs. Very common in that era. I’ e got lots of contemporaneous Tektronix equipment that has the same capacitor styles. The double and triple electrolytics were a thing in the vacuum tube era. ? Thanks Paul, ? Just got the component location PDF on the site which provides me the PS cap numbers; also ordered the 70900A CLIP. However, looking at them I’m confused further with the 3 leads. Only 1 component number associated with a dual capacitor…huh? Hopefully the schematic will clarify this. ? Regards ? Gene ? ? Hi Gene
sorry made a mistake the 3 legged caps are on the Vishay N -cap ?and can be found on the hp 70000 groups
site. Regards Paul?
|
Dave McGuire
Emanuele Girlando
Froggie the Gremlin