8590B low sensitivity problem
Having repaired the PSU and overcome my issue with corrupt NVRAM, I'm now trying to run the self calibration routines. The frequency routines run OK, but the amplitude routines fail very quickly. Testing the analyser with a variety of sources shows that it's very insensitive, unable to discriminate a signal below about 10MHz, improving very slightly as the frequency inceases to 200MHz, but still 70dB too low. I'm having to use the 8590E manual for the fault finding process as I'm unable to locate the service manual for the B; I do have the CLIP for the B version, although there do seem to be differences on my unit, e.g. the backup battery is on the main board and is AA rather than the A123 battery on the memory board indicated in the CLIP. The service manual calls for the HP IF Test Module which isn't something I can lay my hands on, making it rather tricky to fault find signal level issues, especially as the CLIP doesn't have signal levels marked in many places.
Does anyone have the correct service manual for the 8590B or can tell me what signal levels to expect at various locations?
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Re: Repairing flat high voltage ribbon used in HP displays
On 2020-12-04 6:13 a.m., Joel Setton wrote: Hello,
Hi Joel, Thanks again for more info. Yes, this is a delicate repair, indeed. Replacing the complete ribbon
cable, assuming you could get one, does not look like an option, because
the other end of the cable is somehow bonded to the CRT, I think there's
no possibility you could remove it in a way which would make it repairable.
Yes. I'm pretty sure that's the case. I am definitely trying to avoid complete CRT removal from the 1331A. You are right in saying that high-voltage insulation is only required
between the HV trace and the others. Slicing the cable so that the HV
conductor is separate from the other ones looks like a reasonable
possibility, assuming you could find some nice, flexible tubing which
could stand the high voltage (teflon ?). I think it would be more
flexible if "not shrunk".? It would not look as nice as the original
thing, but there's a good chance it would work. My intuition might be off here, but I would have thought that ordinary heatshrink would be sufficient? It would interrupt the shortest path air gap completely.
For what it's worth, I am attaching a picture of the flat cable in my
181A. It looks very similar to the one in your 1335A. What is not
visible in the picture is that I also installed a piece of plastic sheet
inside the cover, so that the ribbon cable would not spring an arc to
the sheet metal. Of course, YMMV.
That looks like an identical cable and junction box. Very neat, you can't tell it has been reglued. I imagine keeping it attached to the CRT while reglueing and holding in a vise was quite a delicate operation? My _biggest_ concern with either regluing or slicing is keeping things intact towards the CRT. Some kind of clamp would seem to be wanted to stop further delamination? At the moment I am favouring the slicing idea. --Toby
I'm staying tuned !
Joel
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Re: Repairing flat high voltage ribbon used in HP displays
Hello,
Yes, this is a delicate repair, indeed. Replacing the complete ribbon cable, assuming you could get one, does not look like an option, because the other end of the cable is somehow bonded to the CRT, I think there's no possibility you could remove it in a way which would make it repairable.
You are right in saying that high-voltage insulation is only required between the HV trace and the others. Slicing the cable so that the HV conductor is separate from the other ones looks like a reasonable possibility, assuming you could find some nice, flexible tubing which could stand the high voltage (teflon ?). I think it would be more flexible if "not shrunk".? It would not look as nice as the original thing, but there's a good chance it would work.
For what it's worth, I am attaching a picture of the flat cable in my 181A. It looks very similar to the one in your 1335A. What is not visible in the picture is that I also installed a piece of plastic sheet inside the cover, so that the ribbon cable would not spring an arc to the sheet metal. Of course, YMMV.
I'm staying tuned !
Joel
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Re: Weather resistant, covered Litz wire wanted.
Hi Donald,
how many meters do you need ? I have AWG24/19 FEP
73, Rainer
Am 04.12.2020 um 01:21 schrieb donald collie:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Sorry about the off topic post, but can anyone suggest a source of
Litz wire that can be used outside in the weather.[PVC, or Teflon,
etc covered]. I`m going to build a loop antenna for receive, and
need several meters. Thankyou!? <donaldbcollie@...>
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Re: Weather resistant, covered Litz wire wanted.
Thanks for the suggestion George - there`s plenty of cotton covered stuff on eBay [bless em]...................Don C.
Donald
I would suggest that you use standard cotton covered and put several layers of varnish on it.
George G6HIG Dover UK
Sorry about the off topic post, but can anyone suggest a source of Litz wire that can be used outside in the weather.[PVC, or Teflon, etc covered]. I`m going to build a loop antenna for receive, and need several meters. Thankyou!? < donaldbcollie@...>
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Re: Weather resistant, covered Litz wire wanted.
Donald
I would suggest that you use standard cotton covered and put several layers of varnish on it.
George G6HIG Dover UK
On Friday, 4 December 2020, 00:21:54 GMT, donald collie <donaldbcollie@...> wrote:
Sorry about the off topic post, but can anyone suggest a source of Litz wire that can be used outside in the weather.[PVC, or Teflon, etc covered]. I`m going to build a loop antenna for receive, and need several meters. Thankyou!? <donaldbcollie@...>
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Re: Performance verification on a HP8510C
One question - are you confusing calibration with verification. If
so, calibration can be done with systm software and a set of
standards. The verification needs an external computer and a set of
standard air lines.
Cheers!
Bruce
Quoting Job PH4AS <groupsio@...>:
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Hi Bill,
I will have the 3.5mm Verification kit and I have a cal kit. So it
is up to the software to make sense of the data disk of the
Verification kit. I do not believe it is in the controller as there
is a 2 disk set (08510-10033) for this purpose. But before I go
after it I want to know what I do with it as I do not have a HP9000
system.
So far I understand that to use a NI GPIB-USB dongle with it you
need HTBasic ($$) to run it. So maybe it would be better to
understand what the data is on the data disk or what the
verification software does and replicate it in Python or so.
Best regards,
Job
PH4AS
On 03-12-2020 03:05, billyatams wrote:
The verification of the 8510C, like most of the HP/Agilent/Keysight
VNA family, requires a set of verification standards as well as the
appropriate calibration kit for the connector type on the test set.
The verification kit is an 85053A for a test set 3.5mm connectors.
It includes two attenuators, a 50 ohm airline and a 25 ohm mismatch
airline. These devices are characterized at Keysight for loss and
reflection in both magnitude and phase in both directions. The
measured values are contained on the disk supplied with the
verification kit. It is imperative that a very high quality cable
is used.
It has been a very long time since I played with an 8510 so I could
be wrong about this, but I thought the System Verification software
that’s contained on the disk supplied with the Verification Kit ran
on the controller that is native to the 8510. There are some quirks
to running the application. It was not as automatic as the PNA Sys
Ver tool.
Bill
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Not sure of number off hand but it looks the same.? ?I will look it up ehen i get home.?
P
On Thu, Dec 3, 2020, 5:04 PM Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd < drkirkby@...> wrote: On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 at 04:10, Pete Manfre < pmanfre@...> wrote: Sold by Top Dog Test.? ?Made by Ceyear.? ?Conpared it to a Keysight and was electrically equivalent.? ?They are supposed to be the supplier to Keysight… so i was told.?
Pete
What Keysight kit was it equivalent to? .
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Weather resistant, covered Litz wire wanted.
Sorry about the off topic post, but can anyone suggest a source of Litz wire that can be used outside in the weather.[PVC, or Teflon, etc covered]. I`m going to build a loop antenna for receive, and need several meters. Thankyou!? <donaldbcollie@...>
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Not sure of number off hand but it looks the same.? ?I will look it up ehen i get home.?
P
On Thu, Dec 3, 2020, 5:04 PM Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd < drkirkby@...> wrote: On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 at 04:10, Pete Manfre < pmanfre@...> wrote: Sold by Top Dog Test.? ?Made by Ceyear.? ?Conpared it to a Keysight and was electrically equivalent.? ?They are supposed to be the supplier to Keysight… so i was told.?
Pete
What Keysight kit was it equivalent to? .
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On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 at 04:10, Pete Manfre < pmanfre@...> wrote: Sold by Top Dog Test.? ?Made by Ceyear.? ?Conpared it to a Keysight and was electrically equivalent.? ?They are supposed to be the supplier to Keysight… so i was told.?
Pete
What Keysight kit was it equivalent to? .
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On Wed, Dec 2, 2020, 10:14 PM Mike Vande Voort < mike@...> wrote: Pete? Who made this cal kit ? Thx Mike
On Wed, Dec 2, 2020, 8:04 PM Pete Manfre < pmanfre@...> wrote:
I bought a new 2.92mm 40GHz cal kit for use with my 8510c (which has finally been sold).? ?So it is no longer needed by me.?
This is a 40GHz 2.92mm male OSLT… open,? short,? load,? thru.? Got it and never used it.? Contains all data specs on thumb drive.? ?I also added 5 precision 2.92mm fm to fm barrels.? ?I spent over $2k.
Location… Ft. Mill, SC USA
Payment… check on US bank,? PO. MO,? western union,? bank wire transfer.?
$1150 shipped CONUS outside US additional.?
Pete wa2odo_._,_
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Just to set the record straight, the 8644, 8645 and 8665 were all developed at the same time as part of what we called the Performance Signal Generator family. They share hardware but there are differences between them. The 8643 is an 8644 with a different power supply and without the 140ns frequency discriminator option. The 8664 is an 8665 without the output section to operate above 3 GHz.
The 8645 was designed for fast frequency hopping applications. The 8644 was a general purpose generator covering the same frequency range. The 8665 with its YIG oscillator extended frequency coverage to 4.2GHz (A version) and 6 GHz (B version). All three utilized a single loop fractional N synthesizer with frequency discriminators to enhance phase noise performance.
These generators were designed at the Spokane Division of HP. One other generator followed which was the 8647. It was a low cost generator that used the signal generator hardware developed for the 8920 test set. Around 1992 the RF signal generator charter moved from Spokane to Santa Rosa so Spokane could concentrate on cellular test. The 8648 used some of the 8647 design but the RF hardware was different and was designed in Santa Rosa.
To be complete, the 8640 and 8660 were designed at the Stanford Park division and their production was moved to Spokane when Spokane split off from Stanford Park. The 8642 was designed in Spokane to be a programmable replacement for the 8640. The 8642 was a multi-loop synthesizer design that used fractional N synthesis in a low frequency loop.
The 8662 was designed at Stanford Park and the 8663 was in development when it was transferred to Spokane. These generators had very good close in phase noise performance but were worse than the 8640 or 8642 at higher offsets.
Jim KD7F
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On Dec 2, 2020, at 11:20 PM, Don Bitters via groups.io <donbitters@...> wrote:
Guys,
The 8664A and the 8643A are from different subfamilies of generators- so while some circuitry is the same or similar - the factories leveraged existing circuits all that they could.
The 8640B ->8645A, possibly even the 8648A are in one subfamily - analog oscillator with lots of digital control. The 8660A -> 8665A are in another subfamily - full digital synthesis and digital control. Check the block diagrams for both series.
Don Bitters
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Re: Repairing flat high voltage ribbon used in HP displays
Toby wrote on 12/3/2020 9:27 AM:
<snip>
I can see some very difficult aspects to this repair. If it's
delaminating along the whole length then the whole length would need to
be reglued, but a perfect seal would only be needed in the gap between
the 7.5kV conductor and the others?
Hello, Toby and the group--
I can offer the following high-voltage NOS wire which may provide
another option to repairing the ribbon cable:
High-voltage wire: Brim
Electronics p/n CHV22-6.5, AWG#22 (19 strands of AWG#34) insulated
with
Teflon ? tape overwrap, plus special anticorona treatment of
the conductor. Rated for 32.5 KVDC
maximum.
or 10 KVAC maximum. Outer
diameter is 0.141 inch.
?Limited
qty. available at $1.50 per foot, plus USPS postage. Note that overseas shipment may be extremely
expensive!
Questions
welcomed, PayPal honored.
73--
Brad? AA1iP
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Re: Repairing flat high voltage ribbon used in HP displays
On 2020-12-03 3:27 a.m., Joel Setton wrote: Hello Toby,
I had exactly the same problem on the CRT of my 181A oscilloscope. I
repaired it by putting the delaminated flex cable together with some
2-part epoxy. While the epoxy is curing, it is vitally important to
pinch the cable as thin and as flat as possible, so that it remains
flexible. I held it with two pieces of cardboard, secured in a vice. Hi Joel, Yes it does, thanks for the reply. I'd be interested to know what your ribbon cable looks like. Was it removable at the CRT end, or integrally connected? I can see some very difficult aspects to this repair. If it's delaminating along the whole length then the whole length would need to be reglued, but a perfect seal would only be needed in the gap between the 7.5kV conductor and the others? I am also thinking that slicing the 7.5kV part away from the other two and heatshrinking it along its length would also work. I might even be able to avoid removing the entire CRT this way (it took me a few _hours_ to remove a broken CRT from a 1335A plus I'd be very worried about damaging this one. These CRTs now seem to be unobtainable, period). Never attempted anything like this myself so it is great to hear from someone who has resolved it before! --Toby
I hope this helps !
Joel
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The 8664 charges the battery when plugged in, at least mine did. I replaced them anyway.
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Re: Performance verification on a HP8510C
Hi Job, You are welcome, verification process is basically having VNA to measuring all components in a calibration kit and then compare the obtained S parameter data to the HP factory supplied data (with verification kit) to see how much it is off. I think by measuring the verification kit component and look on the displayed S11, S21 you should already know if your cal kit or system is ok or not. You don’t really need to run the verification program, unless you have other serious need. I strongly suggest you to download full manual in my previous link and read section 8 for more detail. Good luck. ? ? Best regards,?? Steve Cheng? ??????????????? North American EMC Certification Services Inc.
24889 Ferguson Ave..
Maple Ridge,?BC, Canada V2W 1H4
Tel: (604) 466-5978
Email: steve.cheng@... ?
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Re: Performance verification on a HP8510C
Job
Please contact me off list
Hardy
?
?
Hi Steve,
Thanks for highlighting the requirements. I guess I was hoping for a more
modern solution. Unfortunately it seems the commercial HTBasic package is the
only option in that sense. At least I have not found indications otherwise. I
better first get hold of the software disks and see if I can figure out what
they do.
Best regards,
Job
PH4AS
?
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On 03-12-2020 09:24, Steve Cheng wrote:
Hi Job,
Please check sect 8 of following 8510 service manual, I think you can find all
info you need in it. (if following link does not work, you can try google
"HP 8510C Service.pdf"
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Dear All,
The HP8664A is in the same family as the HP8643A, with many modules common.
On my HP8643A, the battery only seems to charge when the generator is switched on, not when in standby.
I, too, had calibration errors when I bought it.
There were two causes:
1. An internal connector that was not properly seated.
2. The battery issue.
These days, I switch it on for a few hours every couple of weeks- that ensures it holds last settings and does not get stuck in the cal. errors problems.
I’m sure the battery could do with replacement- does anyone know where the battery is and what is a suitable replacement type?
Other than this issue, this is my chosen generator for reciprocal mixing measurements, as it has very low amplitude and phase noise for a synthesised generator of that era- I believe it was made for testing aircraft landing systems (ground segment- it weighs so much, an aircraft might struggle to take off, unless it was a B52).
Regards,
Alwyn
?
_____________________________________________________
Alwyn Seeds, Director
SynOptika Ltd.,
114 Beaufort Street,
London,
SW3 6BU,
England.
SynOptika Ltd., Registered in England and Wales: No. 04606737
Registered Office: 114 Beaufort Street, London, SW3 6BU, United Kingdom. _____________________________________________________
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HP6129C Option J20 Wanted
Dear Group.
?????????????????????? Has any Member HP6129C For Sale ?? Must have Option J20
?????????? Best Regards
???????????????????? Marc Christian
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Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd