Re: 16517a maximum signal speed
At 2019-04-18 03:04 PM, Keith Monahan via Groups.Io
wrote:
Nyquist says 2x the signal
frequency absolute minimum.
Pardon me if I'm out of place, but I'll chime in here about the
"Nyquist frequency fable", which I have fought for years. What
Nyquist actually said was that sampling any slower than 2x is guaranteed
to give aliasing, not the converse, which is usually attributed to him.
In fact I did a whole magazine article on that some years back (I don't
remember, maybe for Electronic Design) illustrating this very topic. You
also have to remember that the theory is based on sampling both the real
and imaginary parts, which in effect means sampling at the 0, 90, 180,
and 270 phase points of the signal and thus at 4x the highest frequency
component. You can easily demonstrate the fallacy by taking a 1 KHz sine
wave and sampling it at 4.1 KSPS. What comes out the other end looks like
it's amplitude-modulated at a low frequency, something like the beat of
the sampling frequency and a multiple of the sine wave frequency. Like
you, I have long used the rule of sampling 4x to 10x the signal
frequency, unless the wave shape is particularly important. The above
shows where the 4x comes from; it mostly suppresses the appearance of
modulation. You have to get out around 10x, where you're guaranteed to
sample within at worst 18? of the peak, to really suppress that aliasing
effect.
Of course aliasing can be quite useful, too - that's essentially the
basis of a superhet receiver!
</soapbox>
Steve Hendrix
|
Re: 16517a maximum signal speed
That's great then.? I've got about a 1.2Ghz digital signal I need to analyze and can clock it down for state analysis.? Just wanted to make sure I wasn't looking at a max of 500-600MHz even in timing mode.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
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-------- Original message --------
From: "Harvey White via Groups.Io" <madyn@...>
Date: 4/18/19 4:33 PM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 16517a maximum signal speed
On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 20:14:52 +0000, you wrote:
>That's what I'm trying to determine, if the 1-4Ghz is talking analog sampling or digital sampling.? What is the maximum digital signal speed (i.e. 1's and 0's) I can expect the card to be able to reproduce with the internal 4Ghz clock?
As far as I know, the card does digital.? Glitch catching may be at a
lower frequency because of the need for additional clocks and data
patterns.? The data goes into a comparator, and is then stored.? If
the data storage were analog, then it'd be a small oscilloscope, with
perhaps a flash converter (and those are only so fast) and I think
you'd have a lower sampling rate.
The specs on the card may tell you the different rates for different
conditions.? Store/transistion limited/glitch catching all have
different capture rates.
Harvey
>
>Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
>
>
>-------- Original message --------
>From: "Glen Slick via Groups.Io" <glen.slick@...>
>Date: 4/18/19 3:59 PM (GMT-05:00)
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 16517a maximum signal speed
>
>Yeah, if someone wanted to sample in timing mode a signal that was
>switching at a 4GHz rate that wouldn't work, if that was what the
>original question was. It wasn't clear what the digital vs. analog
>part of the original question meant.
>
>On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 12:39 PM Peter Gottlieb <hpnpilot@...> wrote:
>>
>> It is important if the sampling is asynchronous to a clocked signal.
>>
>> If synchronous, the only question is whether the analyzer can handle the clock rate, and you can go right up to it.
>
>
>
>
>
|
Re: Fuse holder for hp 437B
Hi Emst
Yes I have a spare removable fuse carrier and am in the UK. ?I also have a 437B and have checked that the 432A fuse does fit it.
Please send me your address to G6HIG at Yahoo dot com.
73 George G6HIG
On Thursday, April 18, 2019 9:35 PM, Dave W6TE <w6te@...> wrote:
Ernst,
?
If you will send me your address I¡¯ll send you a fuse cap. Are you good in qrz.com?
?
73,
?
Dave W6TE
?
?
Thanks for all replies on part number etc,? Will try to find out a german supplier to avoid high shipping cost.
@George G6HIG
Yes, I only need the removable part. Enclosed a picture of the holder to make sure it is same you have. If it fits I would be glad to accept you offer. Of course I will compensate your expenses.
Ernst
|
Re: Fuse holder for hp 437B
Ernst,
?
If you will send me your address I¡¯ll send you a fuse cap. Are you good in qrz.com?
?
73,
?
Dave W6TE
?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of dk1vi
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2019 9:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Fuse holder for hp 437B
?
Thanks for all replies on part number etc,? Will try to find out a german supplier to avoid high shipping cost.
@George G6HIG
Yes, I only need the removable part. Enclosed a picture of the holder to make sure it is same you have. If it fits I would be glad to accept you offer. Of course I will compensate your expenses.
Ernst
|
Re: 16517a maximum signal speed
On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 20:14:52 +0000, you wrote: That's what I'm trying to determine, if the 1-4Ghz is talking analog sampling or digital sampling. What is the maximum digital signal speed (i.e. 1's and 0's) I can expect the card to be able to reproduce with the internal 4Ghz clock? As far as I know, the card does digital. Glitch catching may be at a lower frequency because of the need for additional clocks and data patterns. The data goes into a comparator, and is then stored. If the data storage were analog, then it'd be a small oscilloscope, with perhaps a flash converter (and those are only so fast) and I think you'd have a lower sampling rate. The specs on the card may tell you the different rates for different conditions. Store/transistion limited/glitch catching all have different capture rates. Harvey
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glen Slick via Groups.Io" <glen.slick@...>
Date: 4/18/19 3:59 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 16517a maximum signal speed
Yeah, if someone wanted to sample in timing mode a signal that was
switching at a 4GHz rate that wouldn't work, if that was what the
original question was. It wasn't clear what the digital vs. analog
part of the original question meant.
On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 12:39 PM Peter Gottlieb <hpnpilot@...> wrote:
It is important if the sampling is asynchronous to a clocked signal.
If synchronous, the only question is whether the analyzer can handle the clock rate, and you can go right up to it.
|
Re: 16517a maximum signal speed
Including aliasing effects?
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On Apr 18, 2019, at 4:24 PM, Ethan Waldo < ewaldo@...> wrote:
Assuming "perfect" probing?? I'm trying to be clear on the capabilities of the card as a starting point.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------
Date: 4/18/19 4:16 PM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 16517a maximum signal speed
How the instrument is set up is important. A surprising number of engineers I¡¯ve run into in companies don¡¯t understand how to set up a logic analyzer.
Peter
> On Apr 18, 2019, at 3:59 PM, Glen Slick < glen.slick@...> wrote:
>
> Yeah, if someone wanted to sample in timing mode a signal that was
> switching at a 4GHz rate that wouldn't work, if that was what the
> original question was. It wasn't clear what the digital vs. analog
> part of the original question meant.
>
>> On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 12:39 PM Peter Gottlieb < hpnpilot@...> wrote:
>>
>> It is important if the sampling is asynchronous to a clocked signal.
>>
>> If synchronous, the only question is whether the analyzer can handle the clock rate, and you can go right up to it.
>
>
>
|
Configuration files for HP E2433-60010 Training Kit for HP Logic Analyzers
Does anyone have the? two disk configuration files for HP E2433-60010 Training Kit for HP Logic Analyzers, preferably for the 16500.
|
Re: 16517a maximum signal speed
Assuming "perfect" probing?? I'm trying to be clear on the capabilities of the card as a starting point.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-------- Original message --------
From: "Peter Gottlieb via Groups.Io" <hpnpilot@...>
Date: 4/18/19 4:16 PM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 16517a maximum signal speed
How the instrument is set up is important. A surprising number of engineers I¡¯ve run into in companies don¡¯t understand how to set up a logic analyzer.
Peter
> On Apr 18, 2019, at 3:59 PM, Glen Slick <glen.slick@...> wrote:
>
> Yeah, if someone wanted to sample in timing mode a signal that was
> switching at a 4GHz rate that wouldn't work, if that was what the
> original question was. It wasn't clear what the digital vs. analog
> part of the original question meant.
>
>> On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 12:39 PM Peter Gottlieb <hpnpilot@...> wrote:
>>
>> It is important if the sampling is asynchronous to a clocked signal.
>>
>> If synchronous, the only question is whether the analyzer can handle the clock rate, and you can go right up to it.
>
>
>
|
Re: 16517a maximum signal speed
How the instrument is set up is important. A surprising number of engineers I¡¯ve run into in companies don¡¯t understand how to set up a logic analyzer.
Peter
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On Apr 18, 2019, at 3:59 PM, Glen Slick <glen.slick@...> wrote:
Yeah, if someone wanted to sample in timing mode a signal that was
switching at a 4GHz rate that wouldn't work, if that was what the
original question was. It wasn't clear what the digital vs. analog
part of the original question meant.
On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 12:39 PM Peter Gottlieb <hpnpilot@...> wrote:
It is important if the sampling is asynchronous to a clocked signal.
If synchronous, the only question is whether the analyzer can handle the clock rate, and you can go right up to it.
|
Re: 16517a maximum signal speed
That's what I'm trying to determine, if the 1-4Ghz is talking analog sampling or digital sampling.? What is the maximum digital signal speed (i.e. 1's and 0's) I can expect the card to be able to reproduce with the internal 4Ghz clock?
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glen Slick via Groups.Io" <glen.slick@...>
Date: 4/18/19 3:59 PM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 16517a maximum signal speed
Yeah, if someone wanted to sample in timing mode a signal that was
switching at a 4GHz rate that wouldn't work, if that was what the
original question was. It wasn't clear what the digital vs. analog
part of the original question meant.
On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 12:39 PM Peter Gottlieb <hpnpilot@...> wrote:
>
> It is important if the sampling is asynchronous to a clocked signal.
>
> If synchronous, the only question is whether the analyzer can handle the clock rate, and you can go right up to it.
|
Re: 16517a maximum signal speed
Yeah, if someone wanted to sample in timing mode a signal that was
switching at a 4GHz rate that wouldn't work, if that was what the
original question was. It wasn't clear what the digital vs. analog
part of the original question meant.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 12:39 PM Peter Gottlieb <hpnpilot@...> wrote:
It is important if the sampling is asynchronous to a clocked signal.
If synchronous, the only question is whether the analyzer can handle the clock rate, and you can go right up to it.
|
Re: 16517a maximum signal speed
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On Apr 18, 2019, at 3:46 PM, Ethan Waldo < ewaldo@...> wrote:
That's the difference between timing and state analysis on this card.? Timing is internal asynchronous clock and state is external synchronous clock.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------
Date: 4/18/19 3:39 PM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 16517a maximum signal speed
It is important if the sampling is asynchronous to a clocked signal.
If synchronous, the only question is whether the analyzer can handle the clock rate, and you can go right up to it.
Peter
> On Apr 18, 2019, at 3:19 PM, Glen Slick < glen.slick@...> wrote:
>
> A 16517A / 16518A isn't an scope, there is no waveform reconstruction
> from the signal acquisition. The output is only a 0 or 1 at each
> sample point.
>
>> On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 12:13 PM Peter Gottlieb < hpnpilot@...> wrote:
>>
>> Nyquist allows for capturing the highest frequency component, but not the fidelity of the waveform shape. Think of the waveform with 4 or 10 sampling dots along it and you can get an idea of what you can actually see.
>>
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>> On Apr 18, 2019, at 3:04 PM, Keith Monahan via Groups.Io < keith@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> 16700A and 16900A owner here.
>>>
>>> You'll probably get a better answer from others here, but I'll take a swing:
>>>
>>> Nyquist says 2x the signal frequency absolute minimum.
>>>
>>> My 200mhz Keysight scope samples at 2ghz.
>>>
>>> Rule of thumb that I've used for years is 4x-10x to be sure. More is usually better. An exception that comes to mind on my scope is that limiting bandwidth on low-frequency signals (like audio spectrum) is really helpful for eliminating high-frequency noise.
>
>
>
|
Re: 16517a maximum signal speed
That's the difference between timing and state analysis on this card.? Timing is internal asynchronous clock and state is external synchronous clock.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-------- Original message --------
From: "Peter Gottlieb via Groups.Io" <hpnpilot@...>
Date: 4/18/19 3:39 PM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 16517a maximum signal speed
It is important if the sampling is asynchronous to a clocked signal.
If synchronous, the only question is whether the analyzer can handle the clock rate, and you can go right up to it.
Peter
> On Apr 18, 2019, at 3:19 PM, Glen Slick <glen.slick@...> wrote:
>
> A 16517A / 16518A isn't an scope, there is no waveform reconstruction
> from the signal acquisition. The output is only a 0 or 1 at each
> sample point.
>
>> On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 12:13 PM Peter Gottlieb <hpnpilot@...> wrote:
>>
>> Nyquist allows for capturing the highest frequency component, but not the fidelity of the waveform shape. Think of the waveform with 4 or 10 sampling dots along it and you can get an idea of what you can actually see.
>>
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>> On Apr 18, 2019, at 3:04 PM, Keith Monahan via Groups.Io <keith@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> 16700A and 16900A owner here.
>>>
>>> You'll probably get a better answer from others here, but I'll take a swing:
>>>
>>> Nyquist says 2x the signal frequency absolute minimum.
>>>
>>> My 200mhz Keysight scope samples at 2ghz.
>>>
>>> Rule of thumb that I've used for years is 4x-10x to be sure. More is usually better. An exception that comes to mind on my scope is that limiting bandwidth on low-frequency signals (like audio spectrum) is really helpful for eliminating high-frequency noise.
>
>
>
|
Re: Fuse holder for hp 437B
Ernst,
Send me your address and I¡¯ll send you one.?
Dave
On Apr 18, 2019, at 9:44 AM, dk1vi < dk1vi@...> wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Thanks for all replies on part number etc,? Will try to find out a german supplier to avoid high shipping cost.
@George G6HIG
Yes, I only need the removable part. Enclosed a picture of the holder to make sure it is same you have. If it fits I would be glad to accept you offer. Of course I will compensate your expenses.
Ernst
<Fuseholder 1.jpg>
|
Re: Fuse holder for hp 437B
E
On Apr 18, 2019, at 9:44 AM, dk1vi < dk1vi@...> wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Thanks for all replies on part number etc,? Will try to find out a german supplier to avoid high shipping cost.
@George G6HIG
Yes, I only need the removable part. Enclosed a picture of the holder to make sure it is same you have. If it fits I would be glad to accept you offer. Of course I will compensate your expenses.
Ernst
<Fuseholder 1.jpg>
|
Re: 16517a maximum signal speed
It is important if the sampling is asynchronous to a clocked signal.
If synchronous, the only question is whether the analyzer can handle the clock rate, and you can go right up to it.
Peter
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Apr 18, 2019, at 3:19 PM, Glen Slick <glen.slick@...> wrote:
A 16517A / 16518A isn't an scope, there is no waveform reconstruction
from the signal acquisition. The output is only a 0 or 1 at each
sample point.
On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 12:13 PM Peter Gottlieb <hpnpilot@...> wrote:
Nyquist allows for capturing the highest frequency component, but not the fidelity of the waveform shape. Think of the waveform with 4 or 10 sampling dots along it and you can get an idea of what you can actually see.
Peter
On Apr 18, 2019, at 3:04 PM, Keith Monahan via Groups.Io <keith@...> wrote:
16700A and 16900A owner here.
You'll probably get a better answer from others here, but I'll take a swing:
Nyquist says 2x the signal frequency absolute minimum.
My 200mhz Keysight scope samples at 2ghz.
Rule of thumb that I've used for years is 4x-10x to be sure. More is usually better. An exception that comes to mind on my scope is that limiting bandwidth on low-frequency signals (like audio spectrum) is really helpful for eliminating high-frequency noise.
|
Re: 16517a maximum signal speed
A 16517A / 16518A isn't an scope, there is no waveform reconstruction
from the signal acquisition. The output is only a 0 or 1 at each
sample point.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 12:13 PM Peter Gottlieb <hpnpilot@...> wrote:
Nyquist allows for capturing the highest frequency component, but not the fidelity of the waveform shape. Think of the waveform with 4 or 10 sampling dots along it and you can get an idea of what you can actually see.
Peter
On Apr 18, 2019, at 3:04 PM, Keith Monahan via Groups.Io <keith@...> wrote:
16700A and 16900A owner here.
You'll probably get a better answer from others here, but I'll take a swing:
Nyquist says 2x the signal frequency absolute minimum.
My 200mhz Keysight scope samples at 2ghz.
Rule of thumb that I've used for years is 4x-10x to be sure. More is usually better. An exception that comes to mind on my scope is that limiting bandwidth on low-frequency signals (like audio spectrum) is really helpful for eliminating high-frequency noise.
|
Re: 16517a maximum signal speed
That is what I was hoping, probing concerns not withstanding.? I am curious if anyone here has successfully acquired at those speeds.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
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-------- Original message --------
From: "Glen Slick via Groups.Io" <glen.slick@...>
Date: 4/18/19 2:42 PM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 16517a maximum signal speed
On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 11:19 AM Ethan Waldo <ewaldo@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone familiar with the 16500 analyzer know what the practical maximum digital signal speed the 16517a can capture is, timing analysis half channel?? I'm not clear if 1-4Ghz speeds are digital speeds or just analog.
>
The timing and state sampling speeds as described in the 16517A /
16518A are all in terms of the digital signal acquisition.
Timing Modes:
The 16517A/18A has two timing modes. In full-channel timing mode, data
is sampled at up to 2 GHz. In half-channel timing mode, data is
sampled at 4 GHz.
Synchronous State Mode:
In the full-channel state mode, a synchronous external clock running
at speeds up to 1 GHz can be used as the sample clock. In addition,
the sample point can be offset to ensure a sample where you know data
is valid.
Not only can you sample at the external clock transitions, but you can
set the analyzer to oversample, in powers of two, up to 32x, or, up to
a maximum of 2 GHz sample rate. Each point of oversampling is
precisely distributed evenly within the external clock period.
|
Re: 16517a maximum signal speed
Nyquist allows for capturing the highest frequency component, but not the fidelity of the waveform shape. Think of the waveform with 4 or 10 sampling dots along it and you can get an idea of what you can actually see.
Peter
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Show quoted text
On Apr 18, 2019, at 3:04 PM, Keith Monahan via Groups.Io <keith@...> wrote:
16700A and 16900A owner here.
You'll probably get a better answer from others here, but I'll take a swing:
Nyquist says 2x the signal frequency absolute minimum.
My 200mhz Keysight scope samples at 2ghz.
Rule of thumb that I've used for years is 4x-10x to be sure. More is usually better. An exception that comes to mind on my scope is that limiting bandwidth on low-frequency signals (like audio spectrum) is really helpful for eliminating high-frequency noise.
Keysight says 8x-10x for "today's(2017) complex signals." See below for a discussion.
Each module may have its own series of limitations, like which bits are active (0-3 in your case?), and the sample rate of 128k bytes. Check your user reference manual to be sure.
At the higher frequencies, I'd be fairly concerned about probing and how you're going about getting access on your target to those signals. I'm not familiar with that module's specific probing options, but there's associated restrictions that you should research.
Hope that helps,
Keith
On 4/18/2019 2:19 PM, Ethan Waldo wrote:
Does anyone familiar with the 16500 analyzer know what the practical maximum digital signal speed the 16517a can capture is, timing analysis half channel? I'm not clear if 1-4Ghz speeds are digital speeds or just analog.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
|
Re: 16517a maximum signal speed
16700A and 16900A owner here.
You'll probably get a better answer from others here, but I'll take a swing:
Nyquist says 2x the signal frequency absolute minimum.
My 200mhz Keysight scope samples at 2ghz.
Rule of thumb that I've used for years is 4x-10x to be sure. More is usually better. An exception that comes to mind on my scope is that limiting bandwidth on low-frequency signals (like audio spectrum) is really helpful for eliminating high-frequency noise.
Keysight says 8x-10x for "today's(2017) complex signals." See below for a discussion.
Each module may have its own series of limitations, like which bits are active (0-3 in your case?), and the sample rate of 128k bytes. Check your user reference manual to be sure.
At the higher frequencies, I'd be fairly concerned about probing and how you're going about getting access on your target to those signals. I'm not familiar with that module's specific probing options, but there's associated restrictions that you should research.
Hope that helps,
Keith
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 4/18/2019 2:19 PM, Ethan Waldo wrote: Does anyone familiar with the 16500 analyzer know what the practical maximum digital signal speed the?16517a can capture is, timing analysis half channel?? I'm not clear if 1-4Ghz speeds are digital speeds or just analog.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
|
Dave Smith
Keith Monahan