Re: Type of coax for Impedance Analyzer Test Fixtures
I just noticed in an earlier post the desire for a cable set in a common sheath. You can use salvaged VGA monitor cables - the kind that are "better" quality and fatter, that have coax rather than just a bundle of wires or twisted pairs. With the right VGA cable stock, you can get four coax (RGB and sync), of the preferable (to me) 75 ohms. You would have to put your own BNCs on - just use 50 ohm BNCs - it won't matter. There are also pre-made sheathed cable sets for various other monitor types, especially from the old days. I have often found nice salvaged BNC cable bundles in various lengths, even up to several meters. For my purposes, I usually have one end of the cables permanently attached to the fixture, and the other end BNC to the LCZ meter. From one long BNC RGB&S set, I can make two good cables, ready to go.
Ed
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Re: E4401B No 50MHZ Cal signal
Sadly, C448 was not the actual culprit.? When I replaced what I thought was the defective cap, the malfunction returned.
?
At this point, I suspect the 1st IF mixer, or the amplifier post-mixer.? I am waiting on the tools to properly probe the signal path to know for sure.? Once I have the equipment to test, and have more info, I will post it here.
?
-- Mike
?
For what it is worth, and to give you guys an idea I have a good background servicing Motorola and other brands of LMR 2-way radio equipment for over 40 years. I use a R2001H service monitor on the bench as most of my customers with big
radio fleets are still on analog. Besides the R2001H (1GHz), for tracing I do have a Fluke 85 RF probe, which has a upper -3dB limit of 500MHz, and among other scopes have a Tek 2465B with P6137 400MHz probes, and several 1.1GHz frequency counters which I
check and recal as needed with a 10MHz rubidium oscillator. Plus the obligatory 3468, 3478 and several 974/975 handheld DVMs. Not sure that would stack the odds enough in my favor towards being prepared to find the RF problem in that 4411B.
But just in case I would definitively check C448 first, although I doubt will be this lucky.
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Re: Type of coax for Impedance Analyzer Test Fixtures
The zero and open setups should compensate for cable lengths and fixture characteristics - up to a point. At higher frequencies, and in certain instruments, it may be that specific cable types and lengths are expected by the equipment. My 4276A runs up to only 20 kHz, so is fairly easy to set up over a wide range. There is a maximum cable load capacitance that it can handle, maybe 150-200 pF, so I use 75 ohm cable for all my home-made fixtures. This gives lower C, allowing for longer cables if needed. There is no impedance matching issue here - it's all about the range of parasitic R, L, and C that can be accommodated.
Ed
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Re: E4401B No 50MHZ Cal signal
On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 07:43 AM, ArtekManuals wrote:
The CLIP stands for "Component Level Information Package" Beginning in
the 1990's ( for the most part) HP/Agilent stopped publishing what we
all used to know as full up service manuals. At that point in time most
of the service manuals only? had test and adjustment info but not
schematics , no board part locators nor parts list . For roughly the
next 10 years if you wanted schematics you had to purchase a CLIP ( at a
price of $250-$500 !!!) . Trouble shooting trees as we knew them
disappeared all together for the most part . After 2000 they even
stopped ( for the most part) publishing the CLIPS. Typically CLIPS do
not cover GHZ level RF circuits, YIGS etc. Most do not cover the power
supplies and CRT ( or LCD) display units both of which HP had stopped
making and were 3rd party drops ins.
Dave
manuals@...
--
Dave
Manuals@...
www.ArtekManuals.com
Thank you Dave. Do you have anything available for the 4411B in terms of service aid literature? Maybe its time to make another purchase from you.
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Re: E4401B No 50MHZ Cal signal
For what it is worth, and to give you guys an idea I have a good background servicing Motorola and other brands of LMR 2-way radio equipment for over 40 years. I use a R2001H service monitor on the bench as most of my customers with big radio fleets are still on analog. Besides the R2001H (1GHz), for tracing I do have a Fluke 85 RF probe, which has a upper -3dB limit of 500MHz, and among other scopes have a Tek 2465B with P6137 400MHz probes, and several 1.1GHz frequency counters which I check and recal as needed with a 10MHz rubidium oscillator. Plus the obligatory 3468, 3478 and several 974/975 handheld DVMs. Not sure that would stack the odds enough in my favor towards being prepared to find the RF problem in that 4411B.
But just in case I would definitively check C448 first, although I doubt will be this lucky.
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Re: E4401B No 50MHZ Cal signal
The CLIP stands for "Component Level Information Package" Beginning in the 1990's ( for the most part) HP/Agilent stopped publishing what we all used to know as full up service manuals. At that point in time most of the service manuals only? had test and adjustment info but not schematics , no board part locators nor parts list . For roughly the next 10 years if you wanted schematics you had to purchase a CLIP ( at a price of $250-$500 !!!) . Trouble shooting trees as we knew them disappeared all together for the most part . After 2000 they even stopped ( for the most part) publishing the CLIPS. Typically CLIPS do not cover GHZ level RF circuits, YIGS etc. Most do not cover the power supplies and CRT ( or LCD) display units both of which HP had stopped making and were 3rd party drops ins.
Dave
manuals@...
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 4/15/2019 10:28 AM, Alex wrote: Thank you Mark and Mike for the insightful answers.
Unfortunately I don't have access to this particular unit yet, I only saw the error message on one of the pictures sent to me. The selling price is around the $500 mark shipping to FL included. Normally I would feel adventurous in trying to find and ultimately fix this problem, but given the big complexity of these units in this case I am not so sure I really want having to go into the jungle from the get go. Unless someone more experienced in these ESA units thinks the price would still be a good deal, I guess will wait for the next one. Or would anyone care to suggests a counteroffer I could send that would make sense and minimize my risk given the unknowns?
BTW wanted to ask what is the "CLIP" that has been mentioned several times in this thread? Sounds like an extension to the service manual, or some sort of diagnostic hardware. Maybe I should think of getting it ahead of purchasing one of these units. Can't even find a PDF service manual yet.
Thanks again.
--
Dave
Manuals@...
www.ArtekManuals.com
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Re: E4401B No 50MHZ Cal signal
Thank you Mark and Mike for the insightful answers.
Unfortunately I don't have access to this particular unit yet, I only saw the error message on one of the pictures sent to me. The selling price is around the $500 mark shipping to FL included. Normally I would feel adventurous in trying to find and ultimately fix this problem, but given the big complexity of these units in this case I am not so sure I really want having to go into the jungle from the get go. Unless someone more experienced in these ESA units thinks the price would still be a good deal, I guess will wait for the next one. Or would anyone care to suggests a counteroffer I could send that would make sense and minimize my risk given the unknowns?
BTW wanted to ask what is the "CLIP" that has been mentioned several times in this thread? Sounds like an extension to the service manual, or some sort of diagnostic hardware. Maybe I should think of getting it ahead of purchasing one of these units. Can't even find a PDF service manual yet.
Thanks again.
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Re: Type of coax for Impedance Analyzer Test Fixtures
Dr. David Kirkby from Kirkby Microwave Ltd
Does anyone have any idea what kind of coax is used for the 16048A, example below, or other test fixtures.
The data is in the impedance handbook. It is coax. I think its a polyethylene dielectric.?
Its not obvious where the 1 m is measured from. I do have a couple of original test leads / fixtures so can check.
If anyone knows why the cables need to be a specific length, please let me know. I would have thought the short/open calibration would have removed the effects of the cables, but I am obviously missing something.
I managed to get a free option 006 (support for 4 m cables) for my 4284A from Keysight.?
I¡¯ve yet to work out how to properly calibrate my 4285A. The manual is far from clear. It needs a 4TP 100 ohm resistor which i have.
Dave
HP say not to substitute. They are in various colours.
Are they 50 ohm or just shielded wire? Perhaps low capacity?
My dielectric test fixture is near completion and I need cables. It would be nice to have the four coax in one sheath.
-- Dr David Kirkby Ph.D C.Eng MIET
Kirkby Microwave Ltd
Registered office: Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, CHELMSFORD, Essex, CM3 6DT, United Kingdom.
Registered in England and Wales as company number 08914892
Tel 01621-680100 / +44 1621-680100
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Re: Type of coax for Impedance Analyzer Test Fixtures
Is this a guess or do you have real knowledge? Do you think it is microphone cable?
On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 10:29 PM pianovt via Groups.Io <pianovt= [email protected]> wrote: 50 Ohm, 105 pF/m
Vladan
On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 02:17 PM, peter bunge wrote:
Does anyone have any idea what kind of coax is used for the 16048A, example below, or other test fixtures.
HP say not to substitute. They are in various colours.
Are they 50 ohm or just shielded wire? Perhaps low capacity?
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Re: Type of coax for Impedance Analyzer Test Fixtures
RG-174A/U shows as 50 ohms 102 pF/m
That's pretty darn close!
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Show quoted text
On 4/14/2019 10:29 PM, pianovt via Groups.Io wrote: 50 Ohm, 105 pF/m
Vladan
On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 02:17 PM, peter bunge wrote:
Does anyone have any idea what kind of coax is used for the 16048A,
example below, or other test fixtures.
HP say not to substitute. They are in various colours.
Are they 50 ohm or just shielded wire? Perhaps low capacity?
|
Re: Type of coax for Impedance Analyzer Test Fixtures
50 Ohm, 105 pF/m
Vladan
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 02:17 PM, peter bunge wrote:
Does anyone have any idea what kind of coax is used for the 16048A, example below, or other test fixtures.
HP say not to substitute. They are in various colours.
Are they 50 ohm or just shielded wire? Perhaps low capacity?
|
Re: Type of coax for Impedance Analyzer Test Fixtures
MV and HV utility cables also have layers of semiconducting insulation, but for a different reason.
Peter
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Show quoted text
On Apr 14, 2019, at 7:46 PM, Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> wrote:
That is just standard microphone cable... Very messy stuff
to strip.
-Chuck Harris
Paul Bicknell wrote:
Hi the only thought I have is as follows
Coax cables used for charge amps as in Pc / volt often have carbon type of
material over the dielectric then the screen to reduce any mechanical noise
Just a thought
|
Re: Type of coax for Impedance Analyzer Test Fixtures
That is just standard microphone cable... Very messy stuff
to strip.
-Chuck Harris
Paul Bicknell wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hi the only thought I have is as follows
Coax cables used for charge amps as in Pc / volt often have carbon type of
material over the dielectric then the screen to reduce any mechanical noise
Just a thought
|
Re: HP 53310A just failed - very strange
Hello Peter,
the issue, oddly, already solved itself. I just posted an update...
Tam
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Show quoted text
On 2019. 04. 15. 0:03, Peter Gottlieb wrote: Reseat all connectors especially for the power supply?
On 4/14/2019 4:31 PM, Tam Hanna wrote:
Hello Folks,
now that the move is complete for like a month, it looks like it did - after all - claim a victim. Today, I tried to power on my 53310A MDO, and saw a totally confused screen display (as if the screen was unable to sync).
I powered the unit off (forgot to make a picture, silly me) and turned it on again. Now, nothing shows up at all on the screen and the "hello world beep" also is not audible. All the LEDs on the A3 assembly are lit red, and stay on.
Does anyone of you have experience with this issue? I already have the service manual and will dig in soon (exwife in hospital), but just wanted to ask ahead if anyone already saw the problem...
Tam
--
With best regards
Tam HANNA
Enjoy electronics? Join 15k7 other followers by visiting the Crazy Electronics Lab at
|
Re: HP 53310A just failed - very strange
Reseat all connectors especially for the power supply?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 4/14/2019 4:31 PM, Tam Hanna wrote: Hello Folks,
now that the move is complete for like a month, it looks like it did - after all - claim a victim. Today, I tried to power on my 53310A MDO, and saw a totally confused screen display (as if the screen was unable to sync).
I powered the unit off (forgot to make a picture, silly me) and turned it on again. Now, nothing shows up at all on the screen and the "hello world beep" also is not audible. All the LEDs on the A3 assembly are lit red, and stay on.
Does anyone of you have experience with this issue? I already have the service manual and will dig in soon (exwife in hospital), but just wanted to ask ahead if anyone already saw the problem...
Tam
|
Re: Type of coax for Impedance Analyzer Test Fixtures
I've used high quality RG-174 and have had results which SEEM to match up with calibrated numbers.? Am I sure?? Absolutely not.
Peter
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Show quoted text
On 4/14/2019 5:58 PM, peter bunge wrote: It is a bit strange that the length switch on the HP4192A is 0 and 1 meter positions but the cable with the 16047B is about 20" and it is specified for below 2 MHz.
The 16048A is specified as 1 meter length and good to 10 MHz on the HP4275A.. It is not always obvious which instrument the various fixtures are intended for as many were made years (10 or more) after an instrument was made.
A test with (unknown) teflon coax worked with the 4192A but the length switch had no effect. I will check again at max frequency. Comparisons with test capacitor shown below.
PeterB
DSC_9119.JPG DSC_9123.JPG
On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 5:27 PM Paul Bicknell <paul@... <mailto:paul@...>> wrote:
Hi the only thought I have is as follows
Coax cables used for charge amps? as in Pc / volt often have carbon type
of material over the dielectric then the screen? to reduce any mechanical
noise
Just a thought
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:*[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
[mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>] *On Behalf Of *peter bunge
*Sent:* 14 April 2019 22:18
*To:* [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
*Subject:* [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Type of coax for Impedance
Analyzer Test Fixtures
Does anyone have any idea what kind of coax is used for the 16048A,
example below, or other test fixtures.
HP say not to substitute. They are in various colours.
Are they 50 ohm or just shielded wire? Perhaps low capacity?
My dielectric test fixture is near completion and I need cables. It would
be nice to have the four coax in one sheath.
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <>
Version: 2016.0.8048 / Virus Database: 4793/15884 - Release Date: 08/14/18
Internal Virus Database is out of date.
|
Re: Type of coax for Impedance Analyzer Test Fixtures
It is a bit strange that the length switch on the HP4192A is 0 and 1 meter positions but the cable with the 16047B is about 20" and it is specified for below 2 MHz. The 16048A is specified as 1 meter length and good to 10 MHz on the HP4275A.. It is not always obvious which instrument the various fixtures are intended for as many were made years (10 or more) after an instrument was made.? A test with (unknown) teflon coax worked with the 4192A but the length switch had no effect. I will check again at max frequency. Comparisons with test capacitor shown below. PeterB  ?? 
On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 5:27 PM Paul Bicknell < paul@...> wrote:
Hi the only thought I have is as follows
?
Coax cables used for charge amps? as in?
Pc / volt often have carbon type of material over the dielectric then the
screen? to reduce any mechanical noise ??
?
Just a thought
?
?
Does anyone have any idea what kind of coax is used for the 16048A,
example below, or other test fixtures.
HP say not to substitute. They are in various colours.
Are they 50 ohm or just shielded wire? Perhaps low capacity?
My dielectric test fixture is near completion and I need cables. It would be
nice to have the four coax in one sheath.
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG -
Version: 2016.0.8048 / Virus Database: 4793/15884 - Release Date: 08/14/18
Internal Virus Database is out of date.
|
Re: HP 53310A just failed - very strange
Hello Folks,
and the saga is getting weirder.
Called my wife, we started to go through the service manual tour a tour. Removed the cable interconnecting the display and the CPU board, and reinstalled it. Powered the unit on and off a few times, got nothing and all the LEDs on the CPU board stayed lit (!!!).
After that, we let it sit powered off for some time and powered it up again. He started with a message stating that he found an invalid instruction which can be cleared by power cycling with a pressed front panel button (any). Did that, got it working but requiring a self cal to pass all (!!!) self tests.
By the way, the LEDs go off as parts of the test pass, and when running, you get a KIT-like light effect.
Tam
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 2019. 04. 14. 22:31, Tam Hanna wrote: Hello Folks,
now that the move is complete for like a month, it looks like it did - after all - claim a victim. Today, I tried to power on my 53310A MDO, and saw a totally confused screen display (as if the screen was unable to sync).
I powered the unit off (forgot to make a picture, silly me) and turned it on again. Now, nothing shows up at all on the screen and the "hello world beep" also is not audible. All the LEDs on the A3 assembly are lit red, and stay on.
Does anyone of you have experience with this issue? I already have the service manual and will dig in soon (exwife in hospital), but just wanted to ask ahead if anyone already saw the problem...
Tam
--
With best regards
Tam HANNA
Enjoy electronics? Join 15k7 other followers by visiting the Crazy Electronics Lab at
|
Re: Type of coax for Impedance Analyzer Test Fixtures
Hi the only thought I have is as follows
?
Coax cables used for charge amps? as in?
Pc / volt often have carbon type of material over the dielectric then the
screen? to reduce any mechanical noise ??
?
Just a thought
?
?
Does anyone have any idea what kind of coax is used for the 16048A,
example below, or other test fixtures.
HP say not to substitute. They are in various colours.
Are they 50 ohm or just shielded wire? Perhaps low capacity?
My dielectric test fixture is near completion and I need cables. It would be
nice to have the four coax in one sheath.
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG -
Version: 2016.0.8048 / Virus Database: 4793/15884 - Release Date: 08/14/18
Internal Virus Database is out of date.
|
WReeve
Paul Bicknell