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Re: Converting VNA HP8510C to 8530A for Antenna Measurements

 

Hi Wojciech,
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My question was exactly how do know that the 8530A in the ebay listing is not running 8510C firmware? To me it looks like 8510C firmware just as much as 8530A firmware. I agree that it is an LCD in the ebay listing.
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Regards
Saevar
Re: Converting VNA HP8510C to 8530A for Antenna Measurements

 

Hi Saevar,
Thanks for the information. Indeed, OS seems to be the same. I have also found that information in the document 9018-40568 (https://www.keysight.com/us/en/assets/9018-40568/installation-guides/9018-40568.pdf)
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Regarding 8530A and LCD version: here 8530A is clearly running on LCD version of 85101C:
Therefore what I'm wondering is if A.01.66 can be run on LCD. I have ask seller to check what firmware version is he running and I'm waiting for that information.
Thanks,
Wojciech
Re: 1 mw - 0dbm lab calibration

 

I googled for n432a and wheatstone and this found a technical review of the N432A.
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This clearly shows it uses a similar system to the original 432A with a self balancing Wheatstone bridge. Keysight must have stuck with this system for a good reason. In my opinion it is a very elegant system.
I noted that this document presents the equation (see equation 1 in the document) in a different format and it also has the addition of two versions of Vcomp. i.e. Vcomp0 and Vcomp1.? When I first played with DC substitution with my 432A I logged all the voltages throughout the process and Vcomp doesn't change between the RF on and RF off states. But this was only done at 50 MHz in my case. It may be that the temperature compensation thermistors aren't fully isolated at much higher RF frequencies, so maybe this is why the equation has been enhanced in this way.?
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Keysight provide an uncertainty analysis (and an uncertainty calculator) for the N432A when used with the external 8.5 digit 3458A DVM and DC substitution. This is only really relevant to a calibration house though.?
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I tried to find equivalent info from Tegam and all I can find is the 217 application note. There's nothing about how the uncertainty is estimated, nothing about the impact of the various amplifier offsets. I did find a page in the manual about calibration and there are various offsets that need to be calibrated. This isn't a surprise, looking at the block diagram in app note 217. I'm not sure if buyers are given extra information about these offsets or if you are just supposed to accept all this from Tegam in good faith that the offsets don't impact the uncertainty in any meaningful way. In the absence of any additional data, I think most engineers (including me) would not be confident about the 1830A. I wonder how many they have sold?
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Re: HP 8510C with 8340A?

 

On Fri, 2 May 2025 at 21:01, Tam Hanna via <tamhan=[email protected]> wrote:

For me, the key question is whether this - it is quite an old version of the generator - will be compatible with the 8510C? I looked around the internet a bit, and so far did not find any binding answer...


Tam


I have a customer with an 8510C, which he bought with a sweeper that worked. However, when he tried to use an electronic calibration (Ecal), it would not work. He had to upgrade the sweeper. I have no idea what model or firmware he had.?

Dave
Re: HP 8510C with 8340A?

 

I Have a 8340A running flawlessly in my 8510C system.
HP8340A Firmware:
Rev 23, May 85
Serial Prefix 2602A
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Hope this helps,
Tom
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Re: Converting VNA HP8510C to 8530A for Antenna Measurements

 

Hi Wojciech,
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The firmware is the same with or without the options. For opt 010 the 8510 complains about missing option when trying to select time domain in the menu.
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How can you tell that it is 8530A firmware running on the 85101 LCD?
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The 8510C has different firmware for CRT and LCD.
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Re: Service notes HP5343A, Count about 350MHz wrong

 

Thanks for that service note!

Wilko
Re: Keysight R8486D/Q8486D microwave transition power sensor question

 

Thanks Richard.?
Re: HP 8510C with 8340A?

 

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The 8350B (V7 mainframe firmware) and 83595C (v9 firmware) worked with my 8510C with 7.00 firmware.

Using an ecal module/controller on the 8510C(8515A test set) with 7.10 firmware seemed to work to 20GHz, failing above 20GHz. 7.16 firmware throws a syntax error on an OB command sent to the 8350B, trying to determine the band switch points for the YIG oscillator/multiplier.

I have no idea how any of that would work with a test set with integrate doubler like an 8516A.

The 8350B+83595C got moved to the 8970B+8971C, so I just moved an HPIB cable one position in the stack.

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Jim Ford via groups.io <james.ford@...>
Sent: Friday, May 2, 2025 5:06:13 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP 8510C with 8340A?
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No annoyance taken, Tam.

I remembered seeing in one of the HP app notes about using different sweepers with the 8510 system.? Here's a screenshot; hopefully you can read it:

Inline image

Note 1 shows that the 8340 series synthesized sweepers can be used with the 8510 but at some degraded performance level versus the 8360 series sweepers.? I'm not sure what the performance degradation would be.? In fact, I'd expect better performance from the 8340A vs. the 20 GHz 8350B sweeper I have that will someday be part of my own 8510 system (so far, that's the only component of the system I have, no display, no IF unit, no test set).

I've attached the upgrade guide for your convenience.? The excerpt I showed is on page 8.

Good luck, Tam.

Jim Ford
Laguna Hills, California, USA


On Friday, May 2, 2025 at 03:01:39 PM CDT, Tam Hanna <tamhan@...> wrote:


Hello Folks,

sorry to annoy you with a problem - in an act of stupidity, I bought like half of a 8510C VNA. In particular, I got the display and the test set, which means I miss the compute unit and the waveform generator.


A friend of mine would now have a 2602 serial number of the 8340A unit which he would want to offload onto me for a nice price.


For me, the key question is whether this - it is quite an old version of the generator - will be compatible with the 8510C? I looked around the internet a bit, and so far did not find any binding answer...


Tam


-- 
With best regards
Tam HANNA 

Enjoy electronics? Join 21k4 other followers by visiting the Crazy Electronics Lab at

Re: HP 8510C with 8340A?

 

Hello Jim,

thank you for your kind response, and sorry for being slow in getting back to you.


My worry is the firmware revision on the 8340A. I have seen a few posts about the A models needing firmware updates which require a four EEPROM board, but I have no way to verify that the unit I have has this motherboard revision.


Or, will any 8340A work with the 8510C if it has a sufficiently recent firmware?


Tam

--
With best regards
Tam HANNA

Enjoy electronics? Join 21k4 other followers by visiting the Crazy Electronics Lab at

Re: 1 mw - 0dbm lab calibration

 

On Sat, May 3, 2025 at 06:59 PM, vbonhorst wrote:
The N432A and Tegam use a NBS Type IV bridge. I attach three links that reflect on power measurement.
Thanks there's some interesting info there. Are you sure the N432A is an IV bridge? Maybe there are different ways to describe these circuits but I think the N432A uses a classic self balancing Wheatstone bridge system that is similar to that used in the old HP 432A.
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I think the HP 432A is a great choice for home use if the aim is to just calibrate a 1mW power sensor and make measurements up to maybe 1500 MHz at a similar power level. Once the 432A is used below about -10dBm the drift becomes an issue and I think the overall uncertainty will creep up. To check my 50 MHz 1mW reference here, I've been doing annual DC substitution checks using my 432A here for about 9 years and I get consistent results each time and I log all the resistance, V0, V1, Vcmp readings in a spreadsheet. I also find that making a basic DVM measurement at the recorder at the back agrees very closely with the DC substitution method. Maybe I'm just fortunate with the accuracy of the recorder output from this particular 432A?
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Re: Keysight R8486D/Q8486D microwave transition power sensor question

 

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The D series use the same power sensor cartridges? as the 8487D and can be used to bring those back to life if they have a blown cartridge.? The power meters know which power range they cover by the value of a resistor between ground and a pin on the? ??
power sensor to cable connector.? While they are 'sensitive', you can handle them as long as you use basic anti-static procedures.
There is no filter on the 50Mhz connector, its in direct contact with? the center of the cartridge.
Richard

From:[email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Roy Thistle via groups.io <roy.thistle@...>
Sent:?Saturday, May 3, 2025 12:01 PM
To:[email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject:?Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Keysight R8486D/Q8486D microwave transition power sensor question
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On Sat, May 3, 2025 at 05:15 AM, Edward Prest wrote:
manual says nothing besides not being repairable.
manual says, in part, "Due to the extreme static sensitivity of the power sensors, customer repair is not recommended. If your power sensor should feel or need calibration, return it to Keysight Technologies"
"I'm feeling one here... under anti-static conditions... but, I can't tell if it 'needs' calibration.
Perhaps, it doesn't 'feel' like it?
Re: 1 mw - 0dbm lab calibration

 

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Measuring RF power is not an easy job. Testing power sensors is much more difficult.

Bolometers are very good transfer sensors and are especially stable over a long time.

Errors in Instrumentation accuracy can be small, depending on the capabilities in DC metrology.

The limiting factor always is the knowledge of the calibration factor of the reference power sensor.

Some NMIs specify around 0.2 % as their best CMCs. A calibration at this level of accuracy is time consuming and expensive.

A second influence is stability of the environment temperature. ?One never should forget, RF power measurement ??is a thermal measurement.

Instruments to control thermistor mounts had been made by some companies, like HP/ Keysight and Tegam. The old HP 432A (Type II bridge) is a good low cost choice,

If you do not mind DC Substitution. The N432A and Tegam use a NBS Type IV bridge. I attach three links that reflect on power measurement.

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regards,

Hubert

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Basic 4.0 Series 200_300 Manuals

 

Available and PM directly for details. Thanks,?
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Keysight R8486D/Q8486D microwave transition power sensor question

 

This rf power sensor has a waveguide to TEM transition which then drives the more or less standard diode detector/chopper mechanism (I assume, never seen one).? Does anybody know if there is a filter between the 50MHz ref connector and the transition? Keysight manual says nothing besides not being repairable.? Another question is calibration.? It needs a? 30dB atten so the sensor cals at -30dBm, how does the display know about that?
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Re: 1 mw - 0dbm lab calibration

 


The HPAK system is easier for me to understand (in terms of error management and uncertainty) because it uses a simple resistive Wheatstone bridge and a single differential amplifier for each thermistor in the sensor. It looks like the Tegam system uses multiple amplifiers to allow them to dispense with the two 1k bridge resistors. Presumably it relies on being able to cope with and cancel the offsets in the various amplifiers in their system as it auto nulls.
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It would be interesting to know how the amplifier offset issue is managed and how significant it can be.?
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There does appear to be a maintenance port at the rear of the 1830A. This isn't described in the manual and maybe this can support external DC substitution?
Re: 1 mw - 0dbm lab calibration

 

Thanks. I watched a few of them on youtube and have mixed views on what I saw.
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The webinar above started off really well, but it turned into a bit of a train wreck when the application engineer actually tried to use their hardware with their PS Cal software to do a basic power measurement. To save you all 53 minutes of your time, there was some sort of setup issue and they failed to demonstrate anything and the demo was halted. The only potentially useful thing in that video is a direct contact email for the applications engineer right at the end of the video. Maybe this email is still valid?
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I also found application note 217 from Tegam
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This also has issues. It really doesn't read like a professional document. I've been reading lots of (truly excellent and informative) HPAK app notes all my career and although HPAK do sometimes make typos and mistakes in their text and diagrams, I think this app note 217 from Tegam has more than just bad diagrams that concern me.
Obviously their system diagram is a hastily drawn mess, with nodes grounded that shouldn't be grounded, but it's the wording and the poor technical description and lack of analysis that sets this apart from HPAK. It also appears that they don't use a hardware based self balancing bridge. HPAK use two 1K and one 200R resistors and the thermistor in a bridge. But Tegam appear to do it a slightly different way to HPAK? Maybe the diagram is missing some key components. There's no uncertainty analysis anywhere, just an accuracy figure in the datasheet.
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For me, even if the Tegam unit is technically comparable to HPAK, the N432A and the old HP432A have the massive advantage that they both offer external DC substitution using a DVM. So this means you don't have to return the meter for calibration. This is great for home use.
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Re: Service notes HP5343A, Count about 350MHz wrong

 

Not a lot to calibrate on 5343A or 5342A. I have a 5342A, only adjusting the reference OCXO comes to mind.

Wilko
Re: HP 3580a Option E02

 

2030A4400 is the s/n
Re: HP 3580a Option E02

 

Interesting thought Peter!!!
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I like it sans other ideas ??
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