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Re: 85672A Spurious Response Utility for an 8563E

 

Opps - Just looked at the images of the card - Yep, they're different "Espon" cards then.
?
TonyG
Re: 85672A Spurious Response Utility for an 8563E

 

I'm wondering - If they're ROM cards and there isn't a license entry in the setup program, how did HP stop people from sharing this (as they could just pass the cards around)?
?
Also, are these cards the same basic types as the one used in the 8920? If so then I have the SW/HW to copy them (I created 8920 cards for a device that I sent to my Dad in Aus).
?
TonyG
Re: 1 mw - 0dbm lab calibration

 

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You can get a standards lab calibration on the H series 478's from KT for considerably less than NIST.? They (KT) does a direct comparison against the standards that they've sent to NIST which saves you a LOT of money.? The last time I sent KT a 478A-H75, the cost was only 600.? As long as the sensor you send them is an "H" option, you can get whatever H calibration you? want so you can choose the data points you want data on.? That was about 6ish years ago so I'm sure that the price has gone up.
Richard



From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Razvan Popescu via groups.io <yo8ryr@...>
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2025 4:38 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 1 mw - 0dbm lab calibration
?
The standard 478A can be converted to the H75 option by replacing
capacitors C1 and C2 with 0.1uF ones.

This will make it the H75 version and will be limited to 10MHz-1GHz and
SWR at 50MHz will be around 1.05

One capacitor is in the connector assembly and one is on the thermistor
assembly.

I don't know which values were used for the H76 option. I never saw a
service manual for it.

Paul already uploaded the H75 manual in the Files area which has the
info above.

Best would be to buy a used 478A H75/H76 and have it sent for
calibration to NIST but that will cost around USD 5000 to 7000 from what
I saw on their website.

If I am not mistaken NIST is using a submerged microcalorimeter which I
think no other labs have that.

On 23/04/2025 22:42, Patricio A. Greco via groups.io wrote:
> There are an special sensor to use as reference on 50MHz 478A H76 . It
> has very low SWR and very accurate cal factor at 50MHz. this is the best
> standard you can have at lab. if you take care can reach to 0,25% of
> accuracy.
>
> Regards, Patricio.
Re: 1 mw - 0dbm lab calibration

 

The standard 478A can be converted to the H75 option by replacing capacitors C1 and C2 with 0.1uF ones.

This will make it the H75 version and will be limited to 10MHz-1GHz and SWR at 50MHz will be around 1.05

One capacitor is in the connector assembly and one is on the thermistor assembly.

I don't know which values were used for the H76 option. I never saw a service manual for it.

Paul already uploaded the H75 manual in the Files area which has the info above.

Best would be to buy a used 478A H75/H76 and have it sent for calibration to NIST but that will cost around USD 5000 to 7000 from what I saw on their website.

If I am not mistaken NIST is using a submerged microcalorimeter which I think no other labs have that.

On 23/04/2025 22:42, Patricio A. Greco via groups.io wrote:
There are an special sensor to use as reference on 50MHz 478A H76 . It has very low SWR and very accurate cal factor at 50MHz. this is the best standard you can have at lab. if you take care can reach to 0,25% of accuracy.
Regards, Patricio.
Re: 1 mw - 0dbm lab calibration

 

开云体育

There are an special sensor to use as reference on 50MHz 478A H76 . It has very low SWR and very accurate cal factor at 50MHz. this is the best standard you can have at lab. if you take care can reach to 0,25% of accuracy. ??

Regards, Patricio.?

Ing. Patricio A. Greco
Taller Aeronáutico de Reparación 1B-349
Organización de Mantenimiento?Aeronáutico de la Defensa OMAD-001
Laboratorio de Calibración ISO 17025?AREA: RF/MW?
Gral. Martín Rodríguez 2159
San Miguel (1663)
Buenos Aires
T: +5411-4455-2557
F: +5411-4032-0072




On 23 Apr 2025, at 17:34, jmr via <jmrhzu@...> wrote:

In my opinion, the most uncertainty will lie with the 478A sensor and its limitations at 50 MHz rather than with the meters themselves. I'm not sure the old 432A meter itself is the weak link here especially if you use DC substitution via a calibrated >5 digit DVM.?
?
In my experience, you have to be careful using the standard 478A thermistor sensor at 50 MHz as the VSWR begins to creep up below about 70 MHz and there may also be a subtle wiggle in the return loss near 50 MHz.
?
This can very slightly affect the efficiency of the sensor where there is a wiggle as it becomes frequency dependent throughout the bandwidth of the wiggle. If you then factor in that the sensor efficiency of a 478A has to be known accurately if you want to use it for metrology then this system isn't ideal if you want to do this stuff outside a calibration lab at 50 MHz.
?
The best performance will come from a special (option) version of the 478A sensor that has low VSWR at 50 MHz and has known efficiency at 50 MHz.?
?
Despite all this I do still check my 0dBm 50 MHz source using a 432A and a 478A sensor every year or so here at home and I use the DC substitution method with a 6.5 digit DVM. I get very repeatable results. So I think the efficiency of the sensor is very stable vs time as I've had this 478A sensor for over 30 years now :)
Re: HP853A+8559A spectrum analyzer.

 

Also, that spring contact does not look quite right. It does not have that tang on the end that is pointing down. Check the 853A manual for a pic or parts blow up for the mainframe contact assy.

Don Bitters
Re: 1 mw - 0dbm lab calibration

 

In my opinion, the most uncertainty will lie with the 478A sensor and its limitations at 50 MHz rather than with the meters themselves. I'm not sure the old 432A meter itself is the weak link here especially if you use DC substitution via a calibrated >5 digit DVM.?
?
In my experience, you have to be careful using the standard 478A thermistor sensor at 50 MHz as the VSWR begins to creep up below about 70 MHz and there may also be a subtle wiggle in the return loss near 50 MHz.
?
This can very slightly affect the efficiency of the sensor where there is a wiggle as it becomes frequency dependent throughout the bandwidth of the wiggle. If you then factor in that the sensor efficiency of a 478A has to be known accurately if you want to use it for metrology then this system isn't ideal if you want to do this stuff outside a calibration lab at 50 MHz.
?
The best performance will come from a special (option) version of the 478A sensor that has low VSWR at 50 MHz and has known efficiency at 50 MHz.?
?
Despite all this I do still check my 0dBm 50 MHz source using a 432A and a 478A sensor every year or so here at home and I use the DC substitution method with a 6.5 digit DVM. I get very repeatable results. So I think the efficiency of the sensor is very stable vs time as I've had this 478A sensor for over 30 years now :)
Re: 1 mw - 0dbm lab calibration

 

Hi Roy,

The prices are as following for the two power meters:
- Keysight N432A is USD 16,048.00
- Tegam 1830A is USD 6,495.00

Cables and other accessories are bought separately.

On 23/04/2025 22:16, Roy Thistle via groups.io wrote:
On Wed, Apr 23, 2025 at 10:33 AM, Paul Bicknell wrote:
Thank you Patricio?? for the functional comparison
It's what Gemini, or ChatGTP? outputs.
If you use different prompts, you get slightly different results.
And? they will, and do. contradict themselves, and each other.
You always need to go through the sources.
AFAIK... the Tegam 1830A does not have GPIB?
But ... AFAIK... both N432A and Tegam 1830A? have USB, and Ethernet
AFA price goes... both are ex... pensive... especially new.
Keysight N432A... with sensor, and some options... about 17,000USD, from Keysight
If the Tegam stuff is less expensive, Tegam is not going out of there way to say what the price is... AFAICT.... except for their cables, on Mouser... they are only giving out quotes.
Re: HP853A+8559A spectrum analyzer.

 

The signal on the left is normal (sort of). It is the zero HZ LO feed through. It does look a little distorted - too much signal at the base of the feed through on the right side. You may be sweeping too fast. For several of the adjustments (amplitude, resolution bandwidths, log amps) you only need the cal signal after you have verified the amplitude accuracy and frequency to spec., and/or a clean 10MHz, 30MHz, 50MHz, or 100MHz source with very accurate step attenuation or an external 10dB to 70dB step attenuator that you know the step accuracy per step. The frequency response requires an accurately leveled (crystal detector or power meter) frequency source, a power splitter (DC - 26.5GHz) so that you have a known level accuracy over the entire frequency range. The frequency response is not a quick or easy adjust to get it in spec., but definitely doable and worth it. The 853A/8559A SA is a nice reliable tool once it is working properly, and you discover all of its quirks. This SA is well documented, the schematics are available, as are most of the parts, it is 99% through-hole parts. Even the microwave modules can be repaired with patience and advice.

Do understand that this is not a preselected SA, so you will see the harmonics, spurious signal from the input signal, but there is a signal Id button to help you sort out what you are seeing. Once you get it all fixed, do read the operating instructions and the theory of operation to get an understanding of this SA.

Best regards and good luck in your endeavor.

Don Bitters
Re: 1 mw - 0dbm lab calibration

 

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I know people that has N432A , its great but the return to factory calibration is a problem. Specially living in Argentina. 432A with multimeter works very good and the interfase problem are solved via multimeter interfase. There are R/S thermoelectric power sensors that works very good as standard too.

?

Ing. Patricio A. Greco
Taller Aeronáutico de Reparación 1B-349
Organización de Mantenimiento?Aeronáutico de la Defensa OMAD-001
Laboratorio de Calibración ISO 17025?AREA: RF/MW?
Gral. Martín Rodríguez 2159
San Miguel (1663)
Buenos Aires
T: +5411-4455-2557
F: +5411-4032-0072




On 23 Apr 2025, at 17:16, Roy Thistle via <roy.thistle@...> wrote:

On Wed, Apr 23, 2025 at 10:33 AM, Paul Bicknell wrote:
Thank you Patricio?? for the functional comparison
?
It's what Gemini, or ChatGTP? outputs.
If you use different prompts, you get slightly different results.
And? they will, and do. contradict themselves, and each other.
You always need to go through the sources.
?
AFAIK... the Tegam 1830A does not have GPIB?
But ... AFAIK... both N432A and Tegam 1830A? have USB, and Ethernet
?
AFA price goes... both are ex... pensive... especially new.
Keysight N432A... with sensor, and some options... about 17,000USD, from Keysight
If the Tegam stuff is less expensive, Tegam is not going out of there way to say what the price is... AFAICT.... except for their cables, on Mouser... they are only giving out quotes.
Re: 1 mw - 0dbm lab calibration

 

On Wed, Apr 23, 2025 at 10:33 AM, Paul Bicknell wrote:
Thank you Patricio?? for the functional comparison
?
It's what Gemini, or ChatGTP? outputs.
If you use different prompts, you get slightly different results.
And? they will, and do. contradict themselves, and each other.
You always need to go through the sources.
?
AFAIK... the Tegam 1830A does not have GPIB?
But ... AFAIK... both N432A and Tegam 1830A? have USB, and Ethernet
?
AFA price goes... both are ex... pensive... especially new.
Keysight N432A... with sensor, and some options... about 17,000USD, from Keysight
If the Tegam stuff is less expensive, Tegam is not going out of there way to say what the price is... AFAICT.... except for their cables, on Mouser... they are only giving out quotes.
Re: WTB 5061B Cesium standard AC power cord

 

This reminded me that I have this in my notes, for the 5061A. I don't know offhand if the 5061B is different, but I doubt it.

Power connectors:
DC: Cannon MS3106E-14S-5S
AC: Cannon MS3106A-18-22SW (A/E are environmental I think)

-Dave

On 4/23/25 14:53, Razvan Popescu via groups.io wrote:
Hi Brian,
I cannot find a clear picture of the AC power connector but it looks like an MS3106 20-19S. You can look at the same connector series and check which one might be the right one when you have the unit.
Regards,
Razvan
On 23/04/2025 15:01, mill_glen_chevy via groups.io wrote:
Hi
I have a 55061B coming to the lab soon and need a power cord for it. ?If anyone has a spare, or knows what parts I need to make one, I’d appreciate it.
Thanks, Brian
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Re: WTB 5061B Cesium standard AC power cord

 

Hi Brian,

I cannot find a clear picture of the AC power connector but it looks like an MS3106 20-19S. You can look at the same connector series and check which one might be the right one when you have the unit.

Regards,
Razvan

On 23/04/2025 15:01, mill_glen_chevy via groups.io wrote:
Hi
I have a 55061B coming to the lab soon and need a power cord for it. ?If anyone has a spare, or knows what parts I need to make one, I’d appreciate it.
Thanks, Brian
Re: 85672A Spurious Response Utility for an 8563E

 

As all utilities for the 856XX and 859XX these cards are SEIKO/EPSON cards : the ROM are unobtainable and are now reserved for private HP.... use . You can only find RAM cards which are common with some HP old hand held calculators. Therefore you must dismantle one of these calculators (or a mass memory module, a 70004A... ) to get the mechanical reader frame, and make the cabling to a DIL on a support to put on your EPROM Programmer. You need the pin arrangement of the SEIKO chip and the correct equivalent in the RAM family chip --with battery-- and it is all (but, in the real world a tedious work...). A US now closed famous programmer had the adapter and the direct programming possibility.
Direct download from the SA is impossible : HP was not stupid...


On Wednesday, April 23, 2025 at 08:05:18 PM GMT+2, Dave G8KHU via groups.io <david.fielding.uk@...> wrote:


Rico

Reading the manual, it appears that the card contains RAM powered by a coin cell lithium battery. In which case if the battery is exhausted the cards may well have lost their content. It appears that to change or check the battery the card must be plugged into a powered mass memory module. Do you have the mass memory module? And if so can you check that the utilities are still good?

?

All

From the CLIP the mass memory module is just dumb logic/RAM so it should be possible to read the mass memory content via the main connector (J1) with a suitable PC or Raspberry Pi interface based on an EPROM programmer. If the cards are OK then I’d be willing to take a stab at some suitable interface hardware if someone would help me out with writing a suitable program in Python.

?

I suspect that trying to copy the utilities via HPIB won’t work as I’d assume that HP would have included some sort of protection against that.

?

Dave

Re: 85672A Spurious Response Utility for an 8563E

 

Dave,
From what I have seen it looks like the cards containing the personalities are ROM and not battery backed up, so they should still be good.? I think it is only the generic user programable ones which are battery backed up.? Although I do not have any of the personality cards on hand to confirm that guess, but it would be stupid on HP's part to put software like that on something that relies on a battery to keep it viable.? As for copy protection, there has to be some kind of way to do it given there is an option for the mass memory module which completely removes the card interface, meaning programs would only be able to be uploaded through HPIB somehow.
Re: 85672A Spurious Response Utility for an 8563E

 

Rico

Reading the manual, it appears that the card contains RAM powered by a coin cell lithium battery. In which case if the battery is exhausted the cards may well have lost their content. It appears that to change or check the battery the card must be plugged into a powered mass memory module. Do you have the mass memory module? And if so can you check that the utilities are still good?

?

All

From the CLIP the mass memory module is just dumb logic/RAM so it should be possible to read the mass memory content via the main connector (J1) with a suitable PC or Raspberry Pi interface based on an EPROM programmer. If the cards are OK then I’d be willing to take a stab at some suitable interface hardware if someone would help me out with writing a suitable program in Python.

?

I suspect that trying to copy the utilities via HPIB won’t work as I’d assume that HP would have included some sort of protection against that.

?

Dave

Re: 1 mw - 0dbm lab calibration

 

开云体育

In my lab I use 432A with a 6,5 digit multimeter and works very good with the measurement procedure described on user manual .I modified it to have a third Rb value of 300Ω . With the advantage that you can calibrate the unit on site using the calibrator . Calibration of N432A are made on factory only. N432A are USD 15K range and Tegam on 7K range…?


Ing. Patricio A. Greco
Taller Aeronáutico de Reparación 1B-349
Organización de Mantenimiento?Aeronáutico de la Defensa OMAD-001
Laboratorio de Calibración ISO 17025?AREA: RF/MW?
Gral. Martín Rodríguez 2159
San Miguel (1663)
Buenos Aires
T: +5411-4455-2557
F: +5411-4032-0072




On 23 Apr 2025, at 14:33, Paul Bicknell via <admin@...> wrote:

Thank you Patricio?? for the functional comparison?
?
Do you know the new cost of the Keysight? N432A? and the? Tegam 1830A as I think I will be looking for a second user one soon?
?
Paul?
?
From:?[email protected]?[mailto:[email protected]]?On Behalf Of?Patricio A. Greco via?
Sent:?23 April 2025 18:23
To:?[email protected]
Subject:?Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 1 mw - 0dbm lab calibration
?
<image001.png>

Ing. Patricio A. Greco
Taller Aeronáutico de Reparación 1B-349
Organización de Mantenimiento?Aeronáutico de la Defensa OMAD-001
Laboratorio de Calibración ISO 17025?AREA: RF/MW?
Gral. Martín Rodríguez 2159
San Miguel (1663)
Buenos Aires
T: +5411-4455-2557
F: +5411-4032-0072




On 23 Apr 2025, at 14:01, Paul Bicknell via??<admin@...> wrote:
?
Hi all? Regarding 1 mw lab calibration
I am looking for comparisons between the old and trusted? HP 432A? the replacement
N 432A and the Tegam 1830A and I was wondering if anyone hear Can give any feedback on the Tegam 1830A? compared to the new N 432A
?
Also is there a report comparing the 3 meters??
?
Regards Paul
?
Re: 1 mw - 0dbm lab calibration

 

开云体育

Thank you Patricio?? for the functional comparison

?

Do you know the new cost of the Keysight? N432A? and the? Tegam 1830A as I think I will be looking for a second user one soon

?

Paul

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Patricio A. Greco via groups.io
Sent: 23 April 2025 18:23
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 1 mw - 0dbm lab calibration

?

Ing. Patricio A. Greco
Taller Aeronáutico de Reparación 1B-349
Organización de Mantenimiento?Aeronáutico de la Defensa OMAD-001
Laboratorio de Calibración ISO 17025?AREA: RF/MW?
Gral. Martín Rodríguez 2159
San Miguel (1663)
Buenos Aires
T: +5411-4455-2557
F: +5411-4032-0072




On 23 Apr 2025, at 14:01, Paul Bicknell via <admin@...> wrote:

?

Hi all? Regarding 1 mw lab calibration

I am looking for comparisons between the old and trusted? HP 432A? the replacement

N 432A and the Tegam 1830A and I was wondering if anyone hear Can give any feedback on the Tegam 1830A? compared to the new N 432A

?

Also is there a report comparing the 3 meters?

?

Regards Paul

?
[WTD] 8303A HP-IB interface

 

Looking to upgrade an 8503A with Opt 001 HP-IB interface.
Does anyone have an 08503-60016 interface card excess to their needs?
Any suggestions / experiences on the upgrade process, hints and kinks?
?
thanks, Ron
Re: 1 mw - 0dbm lab calibration

 

开云体育

Ing. Patricio A. Greco
Taller Aeronáutico de Reparación 1B-349
Organización de Mantenimiento?Aeronáutico de la Defensa OMAD-001
Laboratorio de Calibración ISO 17025?AREA: RF/MW?
Gral. Martín Rodríguez 2159
San Miguel (1663)
Buenos Aires
T: +5411-4455-2557
F: +5411-4032-0072




On 23 Apr 2025, at 14:01, Paul Bicknell via <admin@...> wrote:

Hi all ?Regarding 1 mw lab calibration
I am looking for comparisons between the old and trusted? HP 432A? the replacement
N 432A and the Tegam 1830A and I was wondering if anyone hear Can give any feedback on the Tegam 1830A ?compared to the new N 432A

?

Also is there a report comparing the 3 meters?

?

Regards Paul
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