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Re: Perpetual licence fees - what's the best option?

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Yep...the frog in a pot on the stove.....clueless too!
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On 12/15/24 1:56 PM, Dave McGuire via groups.io wrote:


? "You will own nothing and be happy".

? Explanations of this, why it is bad, why it is unnecessary, and why people should avoid it are met with blank stares.? The same kind of blank stares that result from people being told about "free" online services, the fact being that if you receive value for free, you are the product.? People just don't get it.

? People are generally clueless.? I've all but given up trying to save them from their own stupidity.? You can only yell "you are heading toward a cliff!" for so long before it becomes tiresome.

?????????? -Dave


Re: 3577A multiple problems - update

 

Well, here's something interesting.? I wondered if the unit would run without the fast processor card installed, and it does.

Of course, the analyzer doesn't actually function, but it also doesn't crash, no error messages that I was having before, no unlock messages.? Something on that board must be interfering with the main processor board.

Peter

On 12/15/2024 2:55 PM, Wilko Bulte via groups.io wrote:
Bad trace memory should not give illegal instruction traps. Assuming the trace memory is solely used to store data, and is not (also) used to store executable code in. Unless, of course, something is corrupting the data path, common to both instruction and data transfers.

You have returned the suspect RAM chips to their original location?
Re: 3577A multiple problems - update

 

What is a "BUS ERROR" anyway?

Guessing this is triggered from the BERR/ input to the MC68000 going low.? A bunch of conditions seem to trigger this but it looks like attempts to write to ROM or access of high addresses that aren't used will do it.? I do get an error saying it is trying to access address 1862F3A which is out of range considering this processor can only address to 07FFFFF.? Not even sure how it "understands" an address up there.

But, yeah, it had to be a ROM program error, although the ROM checksum test passes.

I believe code is only stored in the ROM chips with no code stored in RAM, but I could be wrong.

Right now I'm suspecting a ROM error of some kind.

I have an opportunity to buy another unit from a friend and I may do just that.? I have limited time to mess around.? I could tell pretty quickly by board swap where the problem lies with this unit, after I run the experiments I need to run which were the reason I pulled this out of storage.

Peter

On 12/15/2024 2:55 PM, Wilko Bulte via groups.io wrote:
Bad trace memory should not give illegal instruction traps. Assuming the trace memory is solely used to store data, and is not (also) used to store executable code in. Unless, of course, something is corrupting the data path, common to both instruction and data transfers.

You have returned the suspect RAM chips to their original location?
Re: Perpetual licence fees - what's the best option?

 

Yup, waste of time.

Peter

On 12/15/2024 4:56 PM, Dave McGuire via groups.io wrote:
On 12/15/24 14:31, Frank Mashockie via groups.io wrote:
This also goes back to right to repair and the lengths companies from all industries are going to 'protect' IP.? Which I still can't believe there were people in this group arguing for company practices like this in the last discussion I was involved in on this topic.
Also, I wouldn't underestimate your need for instrument support with newer equipment.? I work in the biotech industry as an in-house Lab Instrument Engineer.? And for newer equipment, manufacturers are locking down the equipment so that any time you need to perform a repair you NEED to utilize add-on software that allows a manufacturer tech to remotely access the instrument to resolve the issue.? This isn't a feature, it is required!? I suspect any manufacturers of equipment not under scrunity of recent changes to copyright law (ensuring that customers get access to service codes, passwords, etc) will continue these kinds of practices.? That includes electronic test equipment.
I tell my colleagues the same thing that others have said here. Unless you really need the newest equipment because it encompasses technology that will truly advance our science, go with something that is 15-20 years old (or more).? You'll be able to service it without the expensive service contracts these OEMs push in lieu of supporting customer/3rd party repair.? This will keep upfront AND long-term costs way down.
? "You will own nothing and be happy".

? Explanations of this, why it is bad, why it is unnecessary, and why people should avoid it are met with blank stares.? The same kind of blank stares that result from people being told about "free" online services, the fact being that if you receive value for free, you are the product.? People just don't get it.

? People are generally clueless.? I've all but given up trying to save them from their own stupidity.? You can only yell "you are heading toward a cliff!" for so long before it becomes tiresome.

?????????? -Dave
Re: Perpetual licence fees - what's the best option?

 

On 12/15/24 14:34, Paul Amaranth wrote:
Jamovi looks interesting, but there are lots of moving parts under the hood
(embedded web server + web browser in a virual environment ...).
Whoa.. /me cancels download

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Re: Perpetual licence fees - what's the best option?

 

On 12/15/24 14:31, Frank Mashockie via groups.io wrote:
This also goes back to right to repair and the lengths companies from all industries are going to 'protect' IP.? Which I still can't believe there were people in this group arguing for company practices like this in the last discussion I was involved in on this topic.
Also, I wouldn't underestimate your need for instrument support with newer equipment.? I work in the biotech industry as an in-house Lab Instrument Engineer.? And for newer equipment, manufacturers are locking down the equipment so that any time you need to perform a repair you NEED to utilize add-on software that allows a manufacturer tech to remotely access the instrument to resolve the issue.? This isn't a feature, it is required!? I suspect any manufacturers of equipment not under scrunity of recent changes to copyright law (ensuring that customers get access to service codes, passwords, etc) will continue these kinds of practices.? That includes electronic test equipment.
I tell my colleagues the same thing that others have said here.? Unless you really need the newest equipment because it encompasses technology that will truly advance our science, go with something that is 15-20 years old (or more).? You'll be able to service it without the expensive service contracts these OEMs push in lieu of supporting customer/3rd party repair.? This will keep upfront AND long-term costs way down.
"You will own nothing and be happy".

Explanations of this, why it is bad, why it is unnecessary, and why people should avoid it are met with blank stares. The same kind of blank stares that result from people being told about "free" online services, the fact being that if you receive value for free, you are the product. People just don't get it.

People are generally clueless. I've all but given up trying to save them from their own stupidity. You can only yell "you are heading toward a cliff!" for so long before it becomes tiresome.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Re: 3577A multiple problems - update

 

Could be pretty much anything on either of the two largest cards in the analyzer.? Plus stuff not on those cards.? And yes I agree it smells like a ROM going bad.? I wonder if I could pull them, read them out and reprogram onto new chips.? If one is on the edge that might fix it.? EPROMs do go bad...

If it's a random bus transceiver somewhere, ugh.

Peter

On 12/15/2024 2:46 PM, Wilko Bulte via groups.io wrote:
Buss errors and illegal instructions smell like bad RAM, ROM or maybe both. Or a bad bus transceiver maybe. Can be other things too, anything dodgy in address decoding, address bus or data bus can also do it ??
Re: Perpetual licence fees - what's the best option?

 

I ran into the "special service software" issue with a newer R&S transceiver.? Even the ability to swap major assemblies is limited unless you have the special software, which isn't available outside of R&S, nor will they talk to you unless you have a support account with them.? This is needed to support the most basic radio functionality.? No thanks.

Make manufacturers of test equipment state very clearly up front what you are buying and what you are licensing for a limited time. Also, whether licenses are transferable should the underlying hardware fail.? Something like "This functionality requires a subscription and is non-transferable."

I, too, am highly reluctant to deal with licenses.? I am going through such a hassle right now with Schneider PLC components.

Peter

On 12/15/2024 2:31 PM, Frank Mashockie via groups.io wrote:
This also goes back to right to repair and the lengths companies from all industries are going to 'protect' IP.? Which I still can't believe there were people in this group arguing for company practices like this in the last discussion I was involved in on this topic.
Also, I wouldn't underestimate your need for instrument support with newer equipment.? I work in the biotech industry as an in-house Lab Instrument Engineer.? And for newer equipment, manufacturers are locking down the equipment so that any time you need to perform a repair you NEED to utilize add-on software that allows a manufacturer tech to remotely access the instrument to resolve the issue.? This isn't a feature, it is required!? I suspect any manufacturers of equipment not under scrunity of recent changes to copyright law (ensuring that customers get access to service codes, passwords, etc) will continue these kinds of practices.? That includes electronic test equipment.
I tell my colleagues the same thing that others have said here.? Unless you really need the newest equipment because it encompasses technology that will truly advance our science, go with something that is 15-20 years old (or more).? You'll be able to service it without the expensive service contracts these OEMs push in lieu of supporting customer/3rd party repair.? This will keep upfront AND long-term costs way down.
HP 8753A - Want to create/modify user cal kit (using front panel interaction) so that 85033D is resident in storage RAM

 

On HP 8753A, I'm having trouble using front panel interaction to modify an existing cal kit standards to yield a user cal kit (planning 7MM modified to clone 85033D). Looking for help, hand-holding, pointer to suitable how-to, or other resource. I'm not equipped to use GPIB/HPIB, VNA Cal Kit Manager, or GPIB/HPIB floppy drive such as 9122C, so I'm endeavoring to work out the front panel menu system to achieve this.

(details)

I've now got my 8753A set so that the onboard persistent storage (0.22 Farad supercap, about 4 days' life) is kept going with three AA cells (tethered to the supercap via a blocking diode and 10K series resistor); after a week it's stable at 4.4V (fail threshold is around 2V), I'm expecting months of life at least, so I'd now like to perform the task for which I set up this standby power modification.

The 8753A (and successors, evidently with minor variations) has menu directives to modify an existing cal kit (or create from scratch) yielding a (single) user cal kit which can be named and saved.

I'm not set up to connect via HPIB/GPIB and don't have a working 9122C external floppy drive. As I expect my battery/supercap standby supply to provide very long service life, I don't expect to have to re-do the front panel procedure often, so my goal is just to capture the correct key sequence, do and verify the sequence, and go from there.

For the user kit, I'd like use 85033D parameters. I've read through the section of the 8753A user manual 08753-90015 on modifying/creating a user cal kit (later part of section 5), as well as HP's 8510-5B (5956-4352). I'm at the stage "that sort of makes sense" but it's clear that the user cal kit mechanism has to accommodate a large range of use cases, so it's flexible and general purpose, perhaps making the procedure somewhat opaque.

My initial attempts (at modifying the 7mm cal kit as a starting point, as unlike the 85033C and 85032/36 the male/female open and short cal standards have apparently same characteristic parameters) have not been at all successful, so I'm looking for assistance/guidance.

Thanks for any comments, requests for clarification, or pointers to better venue for fielding this question!
Re: 3577A multiple problems - update

 

Bad trace memory should not give illegal instruction traps. Assuming the trace memory is solely used to store data, and is not (also) used to store executable code in. Unless, of course, something is corrupting the data path, common to both instruction and data transfers.

You have returned the suspect RAM chips to their original location?
Re: 3577A multiple problems - update

 

Buss errors and illegal instructions smell like bad RAM, ROM or maybe both. Or a bad bus transceiver maybe. Can be other things too, anything dodgy in address decoding, address bus or data bus can also do it ??
Re: Perpetual licence fees - what's the best option?

 

On Sun, Dec 15, 2024 at 06:28:29PM +0000, Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd wrote:

I am somewhat more than irritated in having to learn a statistics program
(Minitab) whilst doing a mathematics degree. The license is time limited.
??? R is a bit too daunting for many people, but

provides similar functionality to Minitab, but is open-source.

Dave
In far off days I used to do the Unix ports for Minitab (back when there was a
Unix market). Those were simple days, an executable + some supporting files :-)
I always liked Minitab, it was a pretty simple stat program. Maybe it's
changed, I haven't been involved with it for 20 years.

Jamovi looks interesting, but there are lots of moving parts under the hood
(embedded web server + web browser in a virual environment ...). If it installs
and works, great. I've been bitten a couple times by changes in supporting libraries
that break code and that can be fun to track down. For whatever reason, python
seems to be more prone to that.

In the not so gui oriented model, there's Istat which has been around since 79 for
basic analysis. Gnu PSPP is an alternative to SPSS.

Paul

--
Paul Amaranth, GCIH | Manchester MI, USA
Aurora Group of Michigan, LLC | Security, Systems & Software
paul@... | Linux/Unix - We don't do windows
Re: Perpetual licence fees - what's the best option?

 

This also goes back to right to repair and the lengths companies from all industries are going to 'protect' IP.? Which I still can't believe there were people in this group arguing for company practices like this in the last discussion I was involved in on this topic.??
?
Also, I wouldn't underestimate your need for instrument support with newer equipment.? I work in the biotech industry as an in-house Lab Instrument Engineer.? And for newer equipment, manufacturers are locking down the equipment so that any time you need to perform a repair you NEED to utilize add-on software that allows a manufacturer tech to remotely access the instrument to resolve the issue.? This isn't a feature, it is required!? I suspect any manufacturers of equipment not under scrunity of recent changes to copyright law (ensuring that customers get access to service codes, passwords, etc) will continue these kinds of practices.? That includes electronic test equipment.
?
I tell my colleagues the same thing that others have said here.? Unless you really need the newest equipment because it encompasses technology that will truly advance our science, go with something that is 15-20 years old (or more).? You'll be able to service it without the expensive service contracts these OEMs push in lieu of supporting customer/3rd party repair.? This will keep upfront AND long-term costs way down.
HP equipment

 

Hi all,
?
As rarely happens there is some HP equipment (an 8712 vna and a hp3586) for sale here in Australia.
?
See the website.
?
Regards,
?
Waz
Re: Perpetual licence fees - what's the best option?

 

As one of the memebers of the comittee on purchase strategies at the university
where I worked, I was able to add a rule that:
?
No instrument with other than perpetual licenses for the features requested
when ordering should ever be considered buying.
?
This rule was basically aimed at another instrument vendor that had the
strategy of forcing buyers to also pay a service fee for the instrument features.
?
Bad if Keysight is moving in the same direction.
?
Ulf
SM6GXV
Re: Perpetual licence fees - what's the best option?

 

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 at 17:04, neil via <=[email protected]> wrote:
I'm considering purchasing a new VNA, which is a pretty hefty outlay. However, i'm amazed also at the high annual costs of the node-locked perpetual licences. Apparently, these also cover software support. Is there any way of getting around these costs so i can continue to operate without spending a huge amount on the annual licence fee? I'm perhaps not so interested in the online support, once you're familiar with the kit, you can manage without this. I don¡¯t have to pay anything for my old VNA you just connect up and start working.

many thanks for any advice,
Neil


Have Keysight actually gone as far as disabling features you have paid for unless you pay an annual fee? I would never buy an instrument like that.?

I am somewhat more than irritated in having to learn a statistics program (Minitab) whilst doing a mathematics degree. The license is time limited. ??? R is a bit too daunting for many people, but
provides similar functionality to Minitab, but is open-source.?

Dave
Re: Perpetual licence fees - what's the best option?

 

On 12/15/24 12:04, neil via groups.io wrote:
I'm considering purchasing a new VNA, which is a pretty hefty outlay. However, i'm amazed also at the high annual costs of the node-locked perpetual licences. Apparently, these also cover software support. Is there any way of getting around these costs so i can continue to operate without spending a huge amount on the annual licence fee? I'm perhaps not so interested in the online support, once you're familiar with the kit, you can manage without this. I don¡¯t have to pay anything for my old VNA you just connect up and start working.
Two approaches:

1. Keep your old VNA

2. If you absolutely *need* an upgrade for some real reason, obtain a used VNA that's new enough to have the capabilities that you need, but old enough to not have been infected by the suitly licensing BS. And hope that it will last you until you're done. (dead, etc)

Don't validate the suits' awful behavior by buying into (or by buying) it!

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Perpetual licence fees - what's the best option?

 

I'm considering purchasing a new VNA, which is a pretty hefty outlay. However, i'm amazed also at the high annual costs of the node-locked perpetual licences. Apparently, these also cover software support. Is there any way of getting around these costs so i can continue to operate without spending a huge amount on the annual licence fee? I'm perhaps not so interested in the online support, once you're familiar with the kit, you can manage without this. I don¡¯t have to pay anything for my old VNA you just connect up and start working.

many thanks for any advice,
Neil
Re: 3577A multiple problems - update

 

That is possible, but as I don't have extender cards it is a slow process involving tack soldering on a wire or two to make the measurement.? Per my other recent post, I believe there is a single issue and it is in the digital circuits.? This may be related to the CPU cards or could be the digital portion of the A7 card.

Or it could simply be that the CPU is attempting to access the trace memory which at this point has two bad RAM chips.? I will know the answer to that later next week when the replacement chips arrive.

Peter

On 12/15/2024 7:49 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via groups.io wrote:
Having experienced that supply bypass components in modules and on PCB's
such as inductors or resistors (Allen Bradley carbon resistors in particular)
can go bad, I would recommend checking all supply voltages at the respective
module.
Ulf
SM6GXV
Re: 3577A multiple problems - update

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Thanks for the ideas.

I have checked all PS rails and they are all good and steady and well within spec.? I have measured them at the PCB card edge connectors on the motherboard and all look good.

I am now thinking that the two remaining problems I have are actually a single problem.

I was starting on the A7 unlock problem but suspicious as it would regain lock and operate properly upon pressing the Instrument Preset button.? It does this whether warm or cold and is always immediate.? The manual is a little deceptive though.? See the attached schematic.? The engineers very helpfully put in the W1 jumper at the right to break the loop and feed the VCO with 0 or +5 volts.? This is supposed to test the VCO at both high and low frequency extremes.

I did some measurements and got the following:

? 0V = 363 MHz
+5V = 529 MHz

According to the manual, this shows a problem with the VCO since there should be a 300 MHz range, and they suggest looking at the components around Q161.? Seems pretty clear.

HOWEVER,

This morning I decided I would look at the voltage at the input to the VCO in the short time before it went unlocked and found:

0 MHz instrument = 300.250 MHz VCO = 6.04 volts
100 MHz instrument = 400.250 MHz VCO = 4.24 volts
200 MHz instrument = 500.250 MHz VCO = 1.72 volts

So, to get to the 300.250 MHz requires 6.04 volts which is greater than the 5 volts the W1 jumper provides.? Is this out of spec?? Perhaps, but it is still easily within the capability of the op-amp feeding it which is powered from +/-12 volts.? So yes it will work just fine.? And does, until something else happens elsewhere.? I also disconnected the VCO and used a power supply to feed it a control voltage and it seems to be quite stable and solid.

So I am concluding that the indications of a VCO problem are incorrect.

The other serious fault I am having is with the CPU section.? I get crash screens showing bus errors, frequently but not always at PC:0000CDD4, and sometimes illegal CPU instruction, typical PC: 3229FFFE.

So my thought is that what I have is primarily a digital problem and it affects the synthesizer programming resulting in loss of lock.? Now it may very well be related to a marginal chip on the A7 board but in the digital section.? The problem is that this is hard to locate as it takes time to show up and the manual does not provide CPU memory maps.

Peter


On 12/15/2024 6:00 AM, Dave_G0WBX via groups.io wrote:

Hi Peter.

Sounds a bit suspicious, multiple issues all at the same time.

As you had (and fixed) one one PSU issue, unless you have already checked the other PSU output rails, I'd suggest you do that, and the condition of power distribution network, interconnects + decoupling caps elsewhere etc..

Older ROM's, EPROM's and RAM chips can "misbehave" when one or more DC rail they need isn't quite up to snuff, as can (as I have found) older CPU chips etc.

Moving RAM chips around (same type of course) does indicate one or other is suspect, but again if the DC supplies are not clean and stable, one might be "just on the edge" at the best of times anyway.

The OCXO?? Leave it powered for a day and see if it can be pulled back into spec.? Assuming nothing else goes "funny" while waiting.

Is the CRT subsystem OK, no random twitches that could indicate a HV problem?? Perhaps also "spiking" other things that get upset.

Regards to All.

Dave 'KBV



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