Re: HP 16500C Display Question
The whole thing is awful. I lived through it too, and continue to do so, but my perspective is a bit different. Everywhere, all the time, I hear people looking for these things, invariably whining "I had one years ago but I tossed it, I was so dumb!" Now they're forced to pay $200-400 for an EGA CRT if they can even find one.
The same thing will happen to VGA CRTs, though their production volumes were much higher.
People contact LSSM almost daily asking if we have any EGA CRTs to sell. (despite the fact that EGA is decades too new for our focus, and we don't sell anything!)
Extreme short-sightedness is endemic now. This is how things become "rare". And salesmen laugh all the way to the bank.
-Dave
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On 11/3/24 11:58, Chuck Harris wrote: Having lived through it, I see the story differently:
When VGA came out, the idiot collectors and museums
dropped the ball by not obsessively hoarding all of
the obsolete EGA monitors for future use and display
in their museums.
The EPA, egged on by woke, but truly ignorant
environmentalists, forbade the export of scrap CRT lead
glass cullet to non OECD countries (think: third world).
This forced the E-scrappers to unwisely (and much later
illegally) warehouse the lead glass cullet while waiting
for market, and regulatory, conditions to improve. This
also forced the non OECD countries, which would have
gladly processed the scrap lead glass cullet back into
CRTs, to buy virgin lead glass to meet their manufacturing
needs.
Conditions changed, but only for the worse. You see,
the scrap CRT lead glass cullet went from an item that
could be recycled into new CRTS, by non OECD countries,
into an item that was by EPA decree a toxic waste to be
disposed of in sealed toxic waste landfills, at a very
toxic price.
The regulators, feeding off of the crisis they helped
create, fined the E-scrappers that warehoused the lead
glass cullet into bankruptcy. Ultimately, US taxpayers
and the warehouse landlords paid for the disposal of the
lead glass cullet abandoned by the EPA bankrupted E-scrap
companies.
As ye sow, so shall ye reap.
-Chuck Harris
On Sun, 03 Nov 2024 09:23:31 -0500 "Dave McGuire"
<mcguire@...> wrote:
EGA monitors are quite rare and expensive today, due to idiots
obsessively e-cycling them. If they are still common down in your
area, you are very lucky!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
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Re: HP 16500C Display Question
Having lived through it, I see the story differently: When VGA came out, the idiot collectors and museums dropped the ball by not obsessively hoarding all of the obsolete EGA monitors for future use and display in their museums. The EPA, egged on by woke, but truly ignorant environmentalists, forbade the export of scrap CRT lead glass cullet to non OECD countries (think: third world). This forced the E-scrappers to unwisely (and much later illegally) warehouse the lead glass cullet while waiting for market, and regulatory, conditions to improve. This also forced the non OECD countries, which would have gladly processed the scrap lead glass cullet back into CRTs, to buy virgin lead glass to meet their manufacturing needs. Conditions changed, but only for the worse. You see, the scrap CRT lead glass cullet went from an item that could be recycled into new CRTS, by non OECD countries, into an item that was by EPA decree a toxic waste to be disposed of in sealed toxic waste landfills, at a very toxic price. The regulators, feeding off of the crisis they helped create, fined the E-scrappers that warehoused the lead glass cullet into bankruptcy. Ultimately, US taxpayers and the warehouse landlords paid for the disposal of the lead glass cullet abandoned by the EPA bankrupted E-scrap companies. As ye sow, so shall ye reap. -Chuck Harris On Sun, 03 Nov 2024 09:23:31 -0500 "Dave McGuire" <mcguire@...> wrote: EGA monitors are quite rare and expensive today, due to idiots
obsessively e-cycling them. If they are still common down in your
area, you are very lucky!
-Dave
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Re: Can anyone identify this 53132A Optional 3GHz prescaler?
I have used these aftermarket option 30 boards several times. There are open sourced design files on the web, and several chinese vendors offer both the bare boards and completely built (including requisite cables and standoffs) for a reasonable price. I don¡¯t have a signal source for microwave frequencies but at 1000 MHz the boards I have purchased meet the option 30 specs. Since the layout and components look identical to the OEM option 30 boards, I would hope they performed at least to spec if not just as well.
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It¡¯s interesting that you found a 53132 on eBay equipped with one! I don¡¯t think it was one that I outfitted, because the ribbon cable is slightly diffferent than the ones I have used.
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I would be interested to hear what sensitivity readings you obtain above 1000 MHz.
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Vic
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Re: HP 16500C Display Question
EGA monitors are quite rare and expensive today, due to idiots obsessively e-cycling them. If they are still common down in your area, you are very lucky! -Dave On November 3, 2024 8:41:58 AM "Alexandre Souza" <alexandre.tabajara@...> wrote:>Is it just me or no one understands this is a common EGA monitor? Enviado do meu Tele-Movel.
Desculpe a brevidade.
Em dom., 3 de nov. de 2024 06:30, Damien Towning via groups.io
<connolly.damien@...> escreveu:
I found a link to somebody who had converted the display to use in a video
game console. I think it is vga.
In the service manual is a brief mention of the pinout. Looks like vga. I
had a quick go at jumpering it out to a vga cable.
Interestingly appeared to get sync but only a black screen displayed.
See here for more detailed description :
The pinout / cable appears to have changed during revisions to....
On Sat, Nov 2, 2024 at 12:33?AM William Stillwell - KI4SWY via groups.io
<ki4swy@...> wrote:
Based on the information from the GitHub , looks like its actually a
"EGA" Signal ( or Medium Res ) ~ Close to Amiga Res..
You could be able to just piggy back off the signal and use an external
monitor that supports ~25Khz and is larger , or maybe a GBS-8200 to adapt
to a larger monitor for easier view. --
Damien Towning
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
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Re: I did it again - Damaged spectrum analyzer 8563EC
Vladan...you do it all yourself, by being one! Not only a genious, but an over all extremely helpful and nice guy!?
Nick, you are in my neighborhood, same city in which I work, 30 minutes away from home. If you need any kind of RF help with another SpecAn or signal generator to fix that beastie, let me know.?
-Matt
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Re: HP 16500C Display Question
Is it just me or no one understands this is a common EGA monitor?
Enviado do meu Tele-Movel.
Desculpe a brevidade. Em dom., 3 de nov. de 2024 06:30, Damien Towning via <connolly.damien= [email protected]> escreveu:
I found a link to somebody who had converted the display to use in a video game console. I think it is vga.
In the service manual is a brief mention of the pinout. Looks like vga. I had a quick go at jumpering it out to a vga cable.
Interestingly appeared to get sync but only a black screen displayed.
See here for more detailed description :
?The pinout / cable appears to have changed during revisions to....?
On Sat, Nov 2, 2024 at 12:33?AM William Stillwell - KI4SWY via <ki4swy= [email protected]> wrote: Based on the information from the GitHub , looks like its actually a "EGA" Signal ( or Medium Res ) ~ Close to Amiga Res..
?
You could be able to just piggy back off the signal and use an external monitor that supports ~25Khz and is larger , or maybe a GBS-8200 to adapt to a larger monitor for easier view.
?
?
--
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Re: HP 16500C Display Question
I found a link to somebody who had converted the display to use in a video game console. I think it is vga.
In the service manual is a brief mention of the pinout. Looks like vga. I had a quick go at jumpering it out to a vga cable.
Interestingly appeared to get sync but only a black screen displayed.
See here for more detailed description :
?The pinout / cable appears to have changed during revisions to....?
On Sat, Nov 2, 2024 at 12:33?AM William Stillwell - KI4SWY via <ki4swy= [email protected]> wrote:
Based on the information from the GitHub , looks like its actually a "EGA" Signal ( or Medium Res ) ~ Close to Amiga Res..
?
You could be able to just piggy back off the signal and use an external monitor that supports ~25Khz and is larger , or maybe a GBS-8200 to adapt to a larger monitor for easier view.
?
?
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Re: Repair of HP Logic Clips
You could reduce the component count by using ULN2802 IC's.
8 Darlington Transistors in one package.? Overkill for just LED's, but would make things more compact.
(There are different versions, for different source logic families.)
You just need to add the Vcc/Gnd* diodes from each input to the clip's internal power/ground rails.
(* The inputs have diodes there already, but the data sheet is vague on their characteristics.)
I'd not be surprised if there were smaller package versions from other suppliers.
Just a thought.
Dave B (UK)
--
Created on and sent from a Unix like PC running and using open source software:
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Re: Repair of HP Logic Clips
Ran across this one:
,%20Meters%20&%20Measurement/Digital%20Testers/Circuits/16%20LED%20Logic%20Monitor.pdf
Not a complete replacement, but close. Gives a better idea of what might be in the HP clipo
--
Paul Amaranth, GCIH | Manchester MI, USA
Aurora Group of Michigan, LLC | Security, Systems & Software
paul@... | Linux/Unix - We don't do windows
|
Can anyone identify this 53132A Optional 3GHz prescaler?
Hi all,
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I recently just picked up a 53132A with 'meas' error on channel 1, and with some probing it turned out to be a faulty Q30, so a 20 cent part fixed my $140 gamble. :)
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As a bonus, this counter came with option 010 high stability OCXO, and a 3GHz channel 3 option.
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The prescaler is not a genuine HP item, although it does use the same prescaler chip, but I haven't yet been able to identify who made it or where it came from.
It is a different physical layout to HP, and has soldered in brass standoffs and the input coax is directly soldered to the PCB, indicating a somewhat DIY attempt, but the board looks to be somewhat well thought out and seems at first glance to somewhat follow the HP design.
?
?
?
?
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Maybe this is an older aftermarket prescaler that isn't available anymore?
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Has anyone seen this design before? I wouldn't mind finding out the history of it.
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I think I'll also measure it's input sensitivity for fun once I have my counter all buttoned up and compare to my prescaler design and the HP specs to see what is better.
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Thanks,
Jared
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Re: Repair of HP Logic Clips
Those were made when I was at HP-Santa Clara. That is indeed a custom chip. My group made the photomasks.
Jeremy ?
There's no listed equivalent in the HP cross references, so it's almost
certainly a custom chip.? You could do that when you owned your own fab.
I'm not aware of any off the shelf part that can automatically connect
itself to the correct power rails.
If you skipped that part, it would be easy enough to duplicate using
smd parts.
On Sat, Nov 02, 2024 at 08:25:17PM +0000, Tom Gardner wrote:
> Based on the little information in that manual, it could be no more than a
> 74LSxx plus input pull up resistor, optionally with a schmitt trigger
> input. That's based on the absence of a spec for what happens when the
> input is below 2V
>
> But the input might also be a comparator, with the decision voltage being
> 2V.
>
--
Paul Amaranth, GCIH? ? ? ? ? ? ?| Manchester MI, USA? ? ? ? ? ? ?
Aurora Group of Michigan, LLC? ?|? ?Security, Systems & Software
paul@...? ? ? ? ? ? ? |? ?Linux/Unix - We don't do windows
|
Re: Repair of HP Logic Clips
There's no listed equivalent in the HP cross references, so it's almost
certainly a custom chip. You could do that when you owned your own fab.
I'm not aware of any off the shelf part that can automatically connect
itself to the correct power rails.
If you skipped that part, it would be easy enough to duplicate using
smd parts.
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Show quoted text
On Sat, Nov 02, 2024 at 08:25:17PM +0000, Tom Gardner wrote: Based on the little information in that manual, it could be no more than a
74LSxx plus input pull up resistor, optionally with a schmitt trigger
input. That's based on the absence of a spec for what happens when the
input is below 2V
But the input might also be a comparator, with the decision voltage being
2V.
--
Paul Amaranth, GCIH | Manchester MI, USA
Aurora Group of Michigan, LLC | Security, Systems & Software
paul@... | Linux/Unix - We don't do windows
|
Re: Repair of HP Logic Clips
Based on the little information in that manual, it could be no more than a 74LSxx plus input pull up resistor, optionally with a schmitt trigger input. That's based on the absence of a spec for what happens when the input is below 2V
But the input might also be a comparator, with the decision voltage being 2V.
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On Saturday 2 November 2024, Paul Amaranth via <paul= [email protected]> wrote: > Here's a link to the operating and service manual > > > > It has the disassembly procedure and the little tool that you referenced.? Other than > a block diagram, there are no schematics.? It's possible there might be some technical > info in an issue of the HP Journal somewhere. > > You could probably come up with something similar using a microcontroller and a multichannel > A/D. > > It is a handy item though if you're working with that kind of logic circuitry. > The way it auto connects the power pins is pretty neat. > > ? Paul > -- > Paul Amaranth, GCIH? ? ? ? ? ? ?| Manchester MI, USA? ? ? ? ? ? ? > Aurora Group of Michigan, LLC? ?|? ?Security, Systems & Software > paul@...? ? ? ? ? ? ? |? ?Linux/Unix - We don't do windows > > > > > >
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Re: Repair of HP Logic Clips
Here's a link to the operating and service manual
(10528A).pdf
It has the disassembly procedure and the little tool that you referenced. Other than
a block diagram, there are no schematics. It's possible there might be some technical
info in an issue of the HP Journal somewhere.
You could probably come up with something similar using a microcontroller and a multichannel
A/D.
It is a handy item though if you're working with that kind of logic circuitry.
The way it auto connects the power pins is pretty neat.
Paul
--
Paul Amaranth, GCIH | Manchester MI, USA
Aurora Group of Michigan, LLC | Security, Systems & Software
paul@... | Linux/Unix - We don't do windows
|
Re: Repair of HP Logic Clips
The manual is easy to find with Google - I just looked at it.
It has a dissassembly procedure for replacing the contact pins, but no schematic or parts list. I'm sure the "logic assembly" is meant to be replaced as a unit.
The manual shows a picture of the inside - looks like nothing but a 2-pin DIP IC. The part number appears to be 1820-0421.
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Pete
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Re: I did it again - Damaged spectrum analyzer 8563EC
Nick, don't be shy, just give ma a call. And thanks for making me look like some kind of a genius!
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Vladan
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I did it again - Damaged spectrum analyzer 8563EC
Recently, I've been clearing out little used devices from my workshop. I posted about the two massively parallel HP/Agilent logic analyzers that I'm fixing and getting rid of. Well, I'm getting rid of them in theory. We'll see if it actually happens when they are working again.
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I did pull my Agilent 8563EC 26.5 GHz spectrum analyzer off the shelf. It went on the shelf after an embarrassing event. You see, through my inexperience with all things RF, I applied a bit of DC to the front end of this analyzer. Stay with me for a moment as I share some interesting history of this analyzer.
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A few years back, I bought this 8563EC on Facebook Marketplace from a gent in Maryland. He bought quite a few of these from some government auction, and was selling them for their gold value. I was fortunate to get one, but that's all I could get. At that time, I was completely ignorant as to how spectrum analyzers worked, and how one could be employed to be useful to me, or at the minimum, interesting. Upon receiving it, I did power it on. It behaved oddly, but I'll get back to that. I decided to put it through the customary deep cleaning. This includes fixing other mechanical issues like dents in the shell.
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The 8563EC's 'C' indicates that its display is a LCD, not a CRT like the 8563E. While I like the CRT-based devices for nostalgic reasons, the LCD version includes some color elements, won't ever suffer burn-in, and may only some day require a CCFL backlight replacement (or LED retrofit). Having something that works up to 26.5 GHz still seems amazing to me.
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The analyzer behaved well when the span was set to some subset of frequencies, but above certain ranges, the scans would be saturated - the signal was at the top of the screen at all times. I shot quite a lot of video of the symptoms, the diagnosis, and the repair. During this time, I also made a friend who is also on this group as 'pianovt'. PianoVT, it turns out, was one of the designers of many of these spectrum analyzers for Hewlett Packard. PianoVT took time to systematically go over the symptoms, and guide me to measure signals throughout the analyzer. Fortunately, I had also picked up a 8591E which needed only some front-end diodes replaced. I was able to do that on my own earlier. This would prove instrumental in finding the problem with the 8563EC.
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PianoVT explained how the 8563EC used compensation amplifiers to flatten the output. He was somewhat unhappy with the engineering of this family of SAs, saying the designers could have eliminated the sources of error instead of compensating for them with these flatness compensators. If you have an 8560-series SA, you will know about these amps because you must tune them for each of a great many frequency ranges during a full calibration to flatten the response.
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For me, the RF block diagram was amazing. With PianoVT's help (actually, he did all the work), I began to understand a lot more about RF mixers, PIN diodes (they act like frequency dependent RF resistors in a way), YIG oscillators, and much more. Through my probing, and PianoVT's intelligence, he quickly zeroed in on a single op-amp. I must admit I was dubious that a tiny piece of simplicity - a quad op-amp, with no real load, operating well within its normal regime, would fail. I dutifully replaced it, and the SA began to operate perfectly. After a good bit of calibration and verification, I had a fantastic spectrum analyzer that worked across a large range of frequencies.
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Some time later, I was troubleshooting something, and mistakenly put a bit of DC energy onto the input of the SA. Now HP had put large yellow patches of ink, large yellow decals, and pretty much every other warning they could devise to instruct the operators to apply no DC to the input. As expected, I've blown something in the input stage of the 8563EC. At that time, I wasn't able to diagnose and repair the SA, so I took it out of service, and put it up on the 'fix me later' shelf. Now, I'd like to dig back into that instrument.
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As an RF 'pleeb', I will have to re-familiarize myself with the block diagram of this instrument, and I'll channel my internal PianoVT to determine what went wrong. I'm frankly embarrassed to reach out to him, at least at first. For the moment, this is just a story. I may come back asking for assistance.
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Thanks for reading.
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NickyDoes
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HP made two different versions of their logic clips: the HP10528A (7 V Max) and the HP548A (18 V Max, but up to 30 V for quick pulses.) I have both, but both of my 10528s were damaged long ago by a co-worker who didn't notice the 7 V limit. I'd like to get them working again.
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I'm SURE I had manuals for these, and I recall that there was a disassembly procedure in there. Does anyone else remember this? IIRC, it involved making a special tool that could fit between the jaws while the jaws were still completely closed, and could then push the display "guts" up and out of the clip. Does this sound familiar?
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Once out, I wonder if repair is possible. Does anyone have a schematic and parts list? These are just too useful to leave broken.
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I realize that I may have to make some homemade parts to make this work, but, with luck, I might even be able to make them survive higher voltages.
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--
Jim Adney
Madison, WI USA
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Status of two HP / Agilent logic analyzers
Recently, I've had an experience many of you will undoubtedly identify with. Before I get to the details, a bit of background, as I don't post here too often. You see, I may have become a collector inadvertently. This wasn't planned. At first, I wanted some awesome tools so I could take advantage of new skills I've been learning. After repairing these tools, which are inevitably broken in some way or another, I have become enamored with the design intelligence, commitment to build quality, and the overall feel of these pieces of equipment. Surely many of my dear comrades here have shared this experience, and know exactly the path I have traveled. I mentioned that I became a collector; I'm not sure if having one of a thing makes you a collector, but in the case of 1990's era logic analyzers, owning two of these behemoths surely qualifies me as a collector.
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My workshop has one fatal flaw: Its walls are fixed. By this, I mean they do not expand as I acquire additional equipment. I have been paring down the materials and equipment in the workshop to make the space more conducive to, well, working. When it is overly cluttered, any new project starts with clearing a space for that project. The unintended effect is that, too often, I do not start the project. This brings me back to my recent experience.
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I've determined that I am simply not using my wide-bus logic analyzers, of which I have two, a HP 16500C and a newer Agilent 16702B. Both of these are amazing, though I must admit the physical build quality of the 16500C still leaves me agape. The 16702B, no doubt, is of higher complexity overall, evident when one considers the chips and software behind its operation. These are quite large, and the pair, including their accessories, take up a substantial amount of space in the workshop - even though they are in fairly 'cheap' offline-style storage places. I, therefore, decided to take them out and power them up, with the intention of assessing their condition and capability. I resolved to sell one of them.
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The 16500C is my favorite, even though it is less capable and substantially more difficult to use than the 16702C. I love the 9 inch Sony Trinitron monitor embedded into its frame, which, by the way is a diecast monster - reminiscent of the Tesla Cybertruck single die cast chassis. I chose to explore that one first. I heaved it on the worktable and simply plugged it in. Here's where the trouble begins.
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The device powers up, but nothing appears on the display. I mean to say the fans run. To paint a clear picture: The monitor is power on. When I remove power, the deflection coil fields collapse, and I see the telltale sign of an electron gun doing its job. Also, I had replaced the Quantum Fireball SCSI disk with a SCSI2SD arrangement a few years ago. Just in case, I reverted to spinning metal, even though I should have seen something on the display before the disk was accessed.
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I proceeded to do basic troubleshooting, starting with the 1st commandment: thou shall check power rails. All power rails on the monster power supply are doing exactly what the service manual say they should. I also pulled out every module from the chassis. Still, no sign of anything, ever, on the monitor. I pulled out the logic / CPU board - the bottom one on the stack. Here, I checked connections, reseated the SIMMs, and generally did the usual mechanical-first troubleshooting, hoping for a wonky connection. None of this had any effect. Interestingly, I don't get signs of life from the microprocessor. The floppy drive never lights or seeks, and the CPU board remains surprisingly cold, even after being powered for over 1h.
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The level of service manual that I have stops at the level of module replacement. By this manual's logic, I should replace either the CRT, the logic board, or both.
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Of course, it worked when I put it away last, and nothing unusual happened when I first re-powered it. I noticed some dipped 3-legged capacitors that look identical to the Kemet ones that fail on IBM PC 5150 motherboards. Possibly something like this has failed, and taken out a board-level fuse with it? This would leave the power supply rails intact.
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My intention is to sell the 16702B. It is in excellent physical condition - clean, unbroken, and without missing parts. Unfortunately, the display shows some banding which gets far better after it warms up.
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Given my difficulties with the 16500C, along with the lack of use and my space challenges, I'm strongly considering selling it as well.
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I'm in the US, specifically in Raleigh, North Carolina. I would love to chat with any fellow test-equipment-anonymous members. If anyone has ideas on how to bring the 16500C back to life, please reach out. If you're interested in buying one of them, let me know - especially if I don't have to box it to ship it.
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Thanks for being one of my dear readers.
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NickyDoes
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Re: HP8564E-Can the attenuators be operated remotely using GPIB?
You should absolutely be able to set the 8564E attenuator via GPIB commands.
You cannot control each of the attenuator sections individually, except via GPIB commands such as ¡°AT0DB, AT10DB, AT20DB, ¡., AT70DB¡±. You should look at the attenuator truth table in the Theory of Operation section or the Troubleshooting section of the service manual. To view this action on the display you will need to be in a relatively narrow span, RBW, and a displayed signal in the -20dB, -30dB reference level range. This will allow you to the entire range of the attenuator - 0dB to - 70dB.
You als want to decouple the auto RL/AT function.
Don Bitters
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Dave McGuire
Alexandre Souza
Jared Cabot
Jeremy Nichols
saipan59 (Pete)