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Re: HP 140B LVPS -12.6V Not Working

 

Hi David,

I saw some of your comments on another site (eevblog?) regarding 1854-0071.? It appears I have the 4-071 TI001 version.? If these are indeed failure prone, then possibly that's what happened in my case.

I didn't want to remove it unless I had good cause but since it tests in circuit the way it does, then I think there's good reason to at least remove it and test it out of circuit.? If it is indeed bad, then I can at least try a 2n3904.

If HP did switch to 2n3904s for that P/N, then I wonder if those are good for any/all instances?? If not, then I might want to get a supply of 2n3704s since, as you can see, that's not the only one on this board (and, maybe, on other boards in this scope).

Thanks again,
Barry - N4BUQ



1854-0071 is one of the very common small general purpose transistors used all over HP TE, 1853-0020 is the other common one.
It depends on which manual you look at, I've seen 1854-0071 (marked 4-071) listed as 2N3391 and as a selected 2N3704 in different manuals, they were made by various manufacturers and pinouts vary.
I've found original parts fitted marked MPS3391 in a HP 180, the 4-071 or 1854-0071 seems to be the most often failed part I find in HP scopes & other TE.
Later they used 1854-0215 which is a 2N3904.

A few of the common one and the generic part listed, from manuals.

1854-0071 = selected from 2N3704
1853-0020 = selected from 2N3702
Those are listed in the 432A pdf.

1854-0215 = 2N3904
1853-0036 = 2N3906
And those are listed in the 3310A/B pdf.

David

Re: 5342A: sometimes counts, sometimes not

 

Just to be sure: I mean the self test you initiate with <SHIFT> 1

Wilko
Re: N9020A

 

I really wouldn't worry about the Windows aspect of these analysers. It isn't a valid reason to declare them as 'not worth the trouble' etc.?

The MXA really is a nice analyser. At work I'm used to using the PSA and PXA but there are some MXA/EXA and even CXA analysers.

I've only used the MXA a few times but it isn't that far behind the high end models. I used a rented one for several months at work and was quite pleased with it. From memory, the only disappointing aspect (compared to the high end analysers) was the amplitude response and the noise floor response, especially when crossing from band 0 to band 1 at about 3.6GHz. The frequency response, the DANL and noise floor 'flatness' is much better on the high end analysers. Even the 23 year old PSA model is markedly better than the MXA?when tested like this.

The phase noise and spurious free dynamic range is also going to be better on the high end models like the PSA, but not by much. Most users would never notice.

My main niggle with the old PSA is the display. Even the ancient HP 8568B had a better display quality in terms of resolution. I remember using a PSA for the first time back in about 2002. The display was a big disappointment even back then. For many years, I've been hoping that a display upgrade would be available for the PSA but it never happened. If it had been a Windows based machine it would have been much easier to upgrade the LCD display ;)
Re: Interesting power supply issue!

 

What I found is more interesting than a short.

First of all, the power supply uses mag amps to regulate each output.? That's not very common!

Each output is floating with respect to the others in the supply. When the supply is plugged into the backplane the four outputs have their commons tied together and to chassis ground.? So my first thought was that there was a short inside the switcher transformer that led to high currents when the outputs were tied together. Measurements ruled that out.

Measuring the voltages of the outputs led me to the problem.? The +12 was at +23 volts.? So the +12 volt regulator has a fault.

The key finding is that there is a supervisory circuit in the supply which guards against such failures by crowbarring the supply.? But, its design only works when the individual supply commons are tied together.? With the +12 supply left floating the overvoltage protection circuit cannot sense that fault and the supply runs.? Tie the commons together and the overvoltage protection circuit keeps the supply from running, as intended.

I got the CLIP very quickly online from Artek Media and will track down the component fault when I get a little more bench time.

If you are curious about the mag amp angle, the control chips they use are UC3838 and the datasheets are easy to find on the web.? If the fault in mine is that chip, it is available.

Peter

On 4/22/2024 4:19 AM, Martin via groups.io wrote:
Hi Peter,

maybe there is a short circuit in the PS towards its chassis that only reveals itself when screwed to the instrument's chassis?

cheers
Martin
Re: HP 140B LVPS -12.6V Not Working

 

1854-0071 is one of the very common small general purpose transistors used all over HP TE, 1853-0020 is the other common one.
It depends on which manual you look at, I've seen 1854-0071 (marked 4-071) listed as 2N3391 and as a selected 2N3704 in different manuals, they were made by various manufacturers and pinouts vary.
I've found original parts fitted marked MPS3391 in a HP 180, the 4-071 or 1854-0071 seems to be the most often failed part I find in HP scopes & other TE.
Later they used 1854-0215 which is a 2N3904.

A few of the common one and the generic part listed, from manuals.

1854-0071 = selected from 2N3704
1853-0020 = selected from 2N3702
Those are listed in the 432A pdf.

1854-0215 = 2N3904
1853-0036 = 2N3906
And those are listed in the 3310A/B pdf.

David
Re: N9020A

 

HI Hardy,

I did not mean trying this on an existing instrument.

I was wondering how one could design the architecture of a modern instrument to be more universal and less dependant on a single computer. I imagine (dream of) enabling the HW core of the instrument to be used to full extent with an external computer if the internal has failed or cannot be used anymore.

cheers
Martin
Re: N9020A

 

Martin
If the OS in these instrument goes-bad-,one have to re-install it.
You cant connect to the instrument without a working OS.
Hardy

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: [email protected]
<[email protected]> P? vegne af Martin via groups.io
Sendt: 22. april 2024 10:30
Til: [email protected]
Emne: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] N9020A

On 21. Apr 2024, at 23:13, jmr via groups.io
<jmrhzu@...> wrote:
...A fairly decent analyser will have a 14 bit digital IF, a real time
bandwidth of 10MHz to maybe 160MHz and very good specifications for dynamic
range...

One part of the analyser is merely a computer doing signal analysis in SW,
displaying measurements, doing automation etc.

Not sure about the architecture of these "modern" instruments, but I guess
their specs mainly depend on the hardware parts. Talking about "right to
repair", would it be possible to pilot these parts exclusively with some
(well documented) logic or FPGA that provides an interface like HPIB?

If the internal computer (win, linux etc.) goes bad one could still connect
to HPIB and to everything via an external computer. A bit like when the
internal display goes bad and you connect an external monitor to a VGA port.

cheers
Martin






--
Denne mail er blevet tjekket for vira af AVG-antivirussoftware.
www.avg.com
Re: N9020A

 

On 21. Apr 2024, at 23:13, jmr via groups.io <jmrhzu@...> wrote:
...A fairly decent analyser will have a 14 bit digital IF, a real time bandwidth of 10MHz to maybe 160MHz and very good specifications for dynamic range...
One part of the analyser is merely a computer doing signal analysis in SW, displaying measurements, doing automation etc.

Not sure about the architecture of these "modern" instruments, but I guess their specs mainly depend on the hardware parts. Talking about "right to repair", would it be possible to pilot these parts exclusively with some (well documented) logic or FPGA that provides an interface like HPIB?

If the internal computer (win, linux etc.) goes bad one could still connect to HPIB and to everything via an external computer. A bit like when the internal display goes bad and you connect an external monitor to a VGA port.

cheers
Martin
Re: Interesting power supply issue!

 

Hi Peter,

maybe there is a short circuit in the PS towards its chassis that only reveals itself when screwed to the instrument's chassis?

cheers
Martin
Re: N9020A

 

开云体育

The X-series analyzers have evolved quite a bit since their introduction, as the early versions ran XP, and the newer ones are probably on Win10, maybe 11. That gets into licensing negotiations with uSoft. Even with XP, the EXA, MXA, and PXA were faster and more capable than the PSA.

?

The PSA was faster than the 8566/8568, and had a better display, as well as better dynamic range and speed. Log mag display linearity was no longer an issue as the log amps in the IF were replaced with software log functions. Dynamic range was at least 20 dB better. Amplitude accuracy improved from =/- 1.5 dB or worse to less than .5 dB, almost into power meter territory. ?The limitation of the PSA was that it could not support USB devices very well. Writing thee drivers to accommodate every possible peripheral in the wild, wild west that was USB back then was a lot of work. uS was doing all of that work, so why re-invent the wheel.

?

The EXA/MXA/PXA took a lot of the hardware tech from the PSA and added the speed, memory, peripheral support, and processing horsepower of a modern PC, integral to the machine. Could it have used Linux instead of Windows? Yes, but at the time, Linux did not have the horsepower and peripheral support, among other things. ?

?

Some features that ship standard with every box:

?

More displayed data points, at least 64,000 last I knew were available. No, the LCD won’t show them all but they are all available via GPIB, USB, or LAN ports.

?

Sweep speeds are substantially faster than the 8566/8568.

?

Amplitude accuracy and frequency are much better because of the large amounts of memory, both RAM and disk, which allows calibrating at more points across the range of the box, and applying the corrections immediately.

?

Measurements like channel power and adjacent channel power are available.

?

There are at least 4, traces available, in color, that can use any of 4 or 5 different detectors, so you can compare traces taken simultaneously with different detectors ( Rosenfell, Peak, Neg Peak, Average, and Sample). There are more trace math tricks available than the earlier models.

?

There are, I think, 10 markers available, on each trace. Any marker can be a reference marker and any other marker can be a delta marker to that. Multiple reference and delta markers can exist on the same trace.

?

On board storage of setups, traces, etc. is limited only by the size of the hard disk, which of course have grown larger over time. With the USB and LAN ports, off-board storage is just like you would do on a Win PC.

?

There are several other cool things the X-series can do, but I think I’ve hit a few of the more useful ones.

?

I have used the 8566/8568 family since they came out in the late 70’s, the PSA for several years, and also the X-series since they were introduced. I still own a 66, a 68, and a 3.6 GHz EXA. I don’t use the 68 much. I use the 66 for microwave needs, but the EXA for most everything else on my test bench. Yeah, I hate the slow boot up time, but it does everything else so well and so much faster, and I very seldom need to post-process any sweeps, which saves me a lot more time than the slow boot up costs.

?

My EXA has the noise figure option, and it does have some quirks compared the using the 8970 system that I used to have, but it is just as capable. It doesn’t have quite as many tricks as the 8970 could pull off with its Special Functions menu, but I haven’t missed those.

?

I have had the EXA for going on 15 years and have not had any problems with it. (OK, now I’m slightly apprehensive about going into the lab and turning it on, having said that!)

?

Just like PCs in general, the hardware needed to support newer versions of Windows has changed, and obsoletes the older stuff. An upgrade is pretty simple, though not hobbyist cheap. The computer part ?is a plug in module that has a standard interface, so that , last I heard, an original X-series can be upgraded to the lates Wintel version just by replacing that module. The RF hardware doesn’t need to change at all. Certainly, I would expect that more recently built units will have better RF stuff as that evolves over time.

?

Blame the suits for going to a Windows OS? Nope, blame the engineers who finally got the freedom to build a machine that could do everything that the evolving technology of RF hardware, signal processing, and computing horsepower made possible.

?

Tom, N8ZM

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of hardyhansendk via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2024 11:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] N9020A

?

Hi

Just an extra note

The preamp are inbuilt all MXA`s

One of the very nice features are a package named EDP..enhanced display package— its also an ?software option and works wonders-it simply lets you make normal sweeps at your own choise…and have a split screen with a spectrogram….

If one buy from the seller I earlier have linked to,you simply ask Hong for the options you want..and the analyzer can use!!

?

Fra: [email protected] <[email protected]> P? vegne af hardyhansendk via groups.io
Sendt: 22. april 2024 04:51
Til: [email protected]
Emne: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] N9020A

?

Hi Jeremy et all

The MXA have both a preamp and electronically attenuator as option.All MXA have inbuilt 28v dc for noise sources.

The phase noise and noise figure options works even better than the one used in the old PSA.

Regarding vsa 89600 software….all MXA` used to come with ?version 12.02 and version 14 preinstalled.works great in my MXA`s -and of course one can use this software from a pc as well.

There exist ?cracks for version 12.02 and version 22.21.

Only two of the sellers at ebay can offer the units with-a lot- of options…have made a link.

I have collected most info about these nice systems.If interested I can share!!

The only caveat are the bandwidth at 3.6 Ghz,but many of us ?still have the ?old HP/Agilent 856x/859x series analyzers going to multi Ghz.Combinedwith the 3.6 Ghz MXA it’s a great combo as the vsa 89600 sofware have an inbuilt up/down converter mode.The MXA come standard with a digital bandwidth of 25 Mhz!!!

Hardy

?

?

Fra: [email protected] <[email protected]> P? vegne af jmr via groups.io
Sendt: 22. april 2024 00:22
Til: [email protected]
Emne: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] N9020A

?

Here's the datasheet for the N9020A? MXA analyser


It may be the case that the 28V hardware for driving an external noise source is standard equipment. It might therefore be possible to measure noise figure by adding a suitable licence code. Maybe Hardy can advise about this.

The analyser would also need a preamp to cover up to 3.6GHz or an external (homebrew or HP) preamp could be fitted. The noise figure of the internal preamp isn't that great, so I'd recommend making an external preamp, especially for use below about 1GHz.

A noise source would also be needed and this could be homebrew or something like an HP 346A/B. A homebrew noise source would be a lot cheaper but it won't be as stable or as accurate.

The noise figure GUI will probably be similar to that used in other Agilent/Keysight analysers. It's a really nice feature to have on a modern spectrum analyser.?

?

Virusfri.
Re: 5342A: sometimes counts, sometimes not

 

PD: self-check doesn't show 75000000, only zeros
Re: 5342A: sometimes counts, sometimes not

 

Alright guys, I'll check that first. It also seems to me that there is a problem with the frequency reference.?I didn't know that the processor itself depended so much on the time base, but seeing how it has behaved other times, I'll check that and the int/ext switch.

Thank you ;)
Re: N9020A

 

开云体育

Hi

Just an extra note

The preamp are inbuilt all MXA`s

One of the very nice features are a package named EDP..enhanced display package— its also an ?software option and works wonders-it simply lets you make normal sweeps at your own choise…and have a split screen with a spectrogram….

If one buy from the seller I earlier have linked to,you simply ask Hong for the options you want..and the analyzer can use!!

?

Fra: [email protected] <[email protected]> P? vegne af hardyhansendk via groups.io
Sendt: 22. april 2024 04:51
Til: [email protected]
Emne: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] N9020A

?

Hi Jeremy et all

The MXA have both a preamp and electronically attenuator as option.All MXA have inbuilt 28v dc for noise sources.

The phase noise and noise figure options works even better than the one used in the old PSA.

Regarding vsa 89600 software….all MXA` used to come with ?version 12.02 and version 14 preinstalled.works great in my MXA`s -and of course one can use this software from a pc as well.

There exist ?cracks for version 12.02 and version 22.21.

Only two of the sellers at ebay can offer the units with-a lot- of options…have made a link.

I have collected most info about these nice systems.If interested I can share!!

The only caveat are the bandwidth at 3.6 Ghz,but many of us ?still have the ?old HP/Agilent 856x/859x series analyzers going to multi Ghz.Combinedwith the 3.6 Ghz MXA it’s a great combo as the vsa 89600 sofware have an inbuilt up/down converter mode.The MXA come standard with a digital bandwidth of 25 Mhz!!!

Hardy

?

?

Fra: [email protected] <[email protected]> P? vegne af jmr via groups.io
Sendt: 22. april 2024 00:22
Til: [email protected]
Emne: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] N9020A

?

Here's the datasheet for the N9020A? MXA analyser


It may be the case that the 28V hardware for driving an external noise source is standard equipment. It might therefore be possible to measure noise figure by adding a suitable licence code. Maybe Hardy can advise about this.

The analyser would also need a preamp to cover up to 3.6GHz or an external (homebrew or HP) preamp could be fitted. The noise figure of the internal preamp isn't that great, so I'd recommend making an external preamp, especially for use below about 1GHz.

A noise source would also be needed and this could be homebrew or something like an HP 346A/B. A homebrew noise source would be a lot cheaper but it won't be as stable or as accurate.

The noise figure GUI will probably be similar to that used in other Agilent/Keysight analysers. It's a really nice feature to have on a modern spectrum analyser.?

?

Virusfri.

Enhanced Display Package Option EDP - Technical Overview 5991-4002EN c20141030 [8] (1).pdf
Enhanced Display Package Option EDP - Technical Overview 5991-4002EN c20141030 [8] (1).pdf
9018-03435internal preamp.pdf
9018-03435internal preamp.pdf
5989-4943mxa config.pdf
5989-4943mxa config.pdf

Re: N9020A

 

开云体育

Hi Jeremy et all

The MXA have both a preamp and electronically attenuator as option.All MXA have inbuilt 28v dc for noise sources.

The phase noise and noise figure options works even better than the one used in the old PSA.

Regarding vsa 89600 software….all MXA` used to come with ?version 12.02 and version 14 preinstalled.works great in my MXA`s -and of course one can use this software from a pc as well.

There exist ?cracks for version 12.02 and version 22.21.

Only two of the sellers at ebay can offer the units with-a lot- of options…have made a link.

I have collected most info about these nice systems.If interested I can share!!

The only caveat are the bandwidth at 3.6 Ghz,but many of us ?still have the ?old HP/Agilent 856x/859x series analyzers going to multi Ghz.Combinedwith the 3.6 Ghz MXA it’s a great combo as the vsa 89600 sofware have an inbuilt up/down converter mode.The MXA come standard with a digital bandwidth of 25 Mhz!!!

Hardy

?

?

Fra: [email protected] <[email protected]> P? vegne af jmr via groups.io
Sendt: 22. april 2024 00:22
Til: [email protected]
Emne: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] N9020A

?

Here's the datasheet for the N9020A? MXA analyser


It may be the case that the 28V hardware for driving an external noise source is standard equipment. It might therefore be possible to measure noise figure by adding a suitable licence code. Maybe Hardy can advise about this.

The analyser would also need a preamp to cover up to 3.6GHz or an external (homebrew or HP) preamp could be fitted. The noise figure of the internal preamp isn't that great, so I'd recommend making an external preamp, especially for use below about 1GHz.

A noise source would also be needed and this could be homebrew or something like an HP 346A/B. A homebrew noise source would be a lot cheaper but it won't be as stable or as accurate.

The noise figure GUI will probably be similar to that used in other Agilent/Keysight analysers. It's a really nice feature to have on a modern spectrum analyser.?


Virusfri.
HP 140B LVPS -12.6V Not Working

 

I was working on my HP 140B when I suddenly smelled something overheating.? I looked and I'd lost the traces and on further inspection, both -100V and -12.6V were gone.? -100V was an open 1/2A fuse and replacing that restored -100V but -12.6V is still missing.? I found that Q483 was damaged and I replaced it (a 2n3904); however, -12.6V is still not working.

I'm not sure, but I think Q484 may also be bad.? My DMM's diode check mode shows that BE checks okay both ways as expected due to the reverse parallel diode.? My DMM also beeps between BC in both directions.? I don't seen anything that would cause it to beep in the reverse direction (negative on B and positive on C).? I wouldn't think the 20k and 432k in series across BC would be low enough to cause that but I'm not sure about that.? Am I wrong to say that it should only check in the proper forward-biased direction and not in the other direction?

I Q484 is bad, it's listed as a 1854-0071 and from what I've found, there doesn't seem to be an agreement as to what can be used to sub for it.? I have seen where a 2n3904 is suitable but if that's the case, then I wonder why HP didn't use it there.? Anyone know?



Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ
Re: N9020A

 

You can read about the various NF instruments in this old Agilent document here:



The MXA and the older PSA are both listed. I've got extensive experience of using the noise figure personality with the Agilent PSA analyser.?
The noise figure option is very powerful on the PSA, but the user interface for the noise figure personality is very clunky in terms of file management.?
Renaming and saving and reloading custom ENR tables on the PSA analyser is really clunky and frustrating to do. This is one area where Windows should be vastly better because the file visibility and file handling will be much better. Hopefully, it will be easier on the MXA.

The plot below is a noise figure measurement of a Philips OM345 gain block as used in the little Marconi 2022 signal generators. This was taken with a PSA analyser. There's also a plot of a PGA103+ LNA up to 1GHz.

It's also possible to configure the analyser to measure the noise figure of active mixers by setting up the GUI as in the other image below. I'd expect the MXA to support this as well. These are really powerful signal/spectrum analysers.
Re: Interesting power supply issue!

 

So very odd.? The connector is a 15 pin D with guide pins and cannot go in wrong.? Infinite between supplies and common, and between supplies and each other.

It appears that simply connecting the various rail returns together, as they are done at the backplane, causes the problem.? I will see which particular one is the issue.

On 4/21/2024 7:18 PM, Harvey White via groups.io wrote:
Connector miskeyed?? Off by one?? bad?

Any idea what line is shorted?? Resistance with the power supply off but plugged into the backplane?

Guesses.

Harvey


On 4/21/2024 7:12 PM, Peter Gottlieb wrote:
I have an 8711B where the power supply runs when out of the chassis but when plugged in it keeps trying to start as if there is a short.

I have determined that the supply acts this way when the small backplane is plugged in without any assemblies connected.

There are no shorts on the backplane and it is in perfect condition including connectors.

I just ordered the CLIP from ArtekMedia to help me look into this.

Has anyone ever seen something like this?? It's a new one to me!

Peter
Re: Interesting power supply issue!

 

Connector miskeyed?? Off by one?? bad?

Any idea what line is shorted?? Resistance with the power supply off but plugged into the backplane?

Guesses.

Harvey

On 4/21/2024 7:12 PM, Peter Gottlieb wrote:
I have an 8711B where the power supply runs when out of the chassis but when plugged in it keeps trying to start as if there is a short.

I have determined that the supply acts this way when the small backplane is plugged in without any assemblies connected.

There are no shorts on the backplane and it is in perfect condition including connectors.

I just ordered the CLIP from ArtekMedia to help me look into this.

Has anyone ever seen something like this?? It's a new one to me!

Peter
Interesting power supply issue!

 

I have an 8711B where the power supply runs when out of the chassis but when plugged in it keeps trying to start as if there is a short.

I have determined that the supply acts this way when the small backplane is plugged in without any assemblies connected.

There are no shorts on the backplane and it is in perfect condition including connectors.

I just ordered the CLIP from ArtekMedia to help me look into this.

Has anyone ever seen something like this?? It's a new one to me!

Peter
Re: N9020A

 

开云体育

These MXA options are ridiculously expensive for a hardware that is included on analyzer.?
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F:?+5411-4032-0072

On 21 Apr 2024, at 19:22, jmr via groups.io <jmrhzu@...> wrote:

?Here's the datasheet for the N9020A? MXA analyser


It may be the case that the 28V hardware for driving an external noise source is standard equipment. It might therefore be possible to measure noise figure by adding a suitable licence code. Maybe Hardy can advise about this.

The analyser would also need a preamp to cover up to 3.6GHz or an external (homebrew or HP) preamp could be fitted. The noise figure of the internal preamp isn't that great, so I'd recommend making an external preamp, especially for use below about 1GHz.

A noise source would also be needed and this could be homebrew or something like an HP 346A/B. A homebrew noise source would be a lot cheaper but it won't be as stable or as accurate.

The noise figure GUI will probably be similar to that used in other Agilent/Keysight analysers. It's a really nice feature to have on a modern spectrum analyser.?

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