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Date
Re: HP instrument measuring ¡°RMS Power¡±

 

That could be. When I was buying this meter, years ago, I didn¡¯t notice the difference in the meter face¡ªdidn¡¯t even occur to me to wonder why it was the way it was.?



On Sat, Sep 3, 2022 at 2:17 PM tgerbic <tgerbic@...> wrote:
Jeremy, thanks for the photos. I guess it was an add on scale just setup to indicate the dbW figure correlated to the dbM graduations.?
--
T. Gerbic
Central California

--
Jeremy Nichols
6.
Re: HP instrument measuring ¡°RMS Power¡±

 

Jeremy, thanks for the photos. I guess it was an add on scale just setup to indicate the dbW figure correlated to the dbM graduations.?
--
T. Gerbic
Central California
Re: Replacement OCXO board for 5315B

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Email sent


-------- Original message --------
From: Joel Setton <setton@...>
Date: 9/3/22 3:47 AM (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Replacement OCXO board for 5315B

Hello everyone,

Just as a follow-up for the other topic (1820-2131 for the 5315B counter).

My 5315B came with Option 004, which is the high-stability OCXO. Unfortunately, the Ovenaire 85-50 oscillator had a problem with the heater which stayed cold, so it "worked" and generated a sinewave, but was 30 Hz away from its nominal 10.0000 MHz.

I decided to use another OCXO and got a Bliley NVG47A, for which I designed a PC board which mounts on the original bracket intended for the Ovenaire oscillator (re: attached pictures). No electrical or mechanical changes to the counter are needed.

I have a few bare PC boards which I'd be glad to sell for $1 each plus the price of mailing from France. If anybody is interested, please let me know !

Cheers,

Joel

Re: Which Vector network analysis book to buy - help

 

Thanks David - I will probably buy the HP book first and then see if I still have interest in the R&S book.

I am concerned about the error concerning the definition of S11 - does your copy have that error (which edition is it) ?

Cheers!

Bruce

Quoting "Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd" <drkirkby@...>:

On Sat, 3 Sept 2022 at 04:27, Bruce <bruce@...> wrote:

I intend to purchase either of both of the following books. I do have an
extensive collection of notes and articles but figure I need some good
bedtime reading. The candidate books are:
1) Handbook of Microwave Component measurement with Advanced VNA
Techniques - (J.P. Dunsmore)
2) Fundamentals of Vector Network Analysis - (M.Heibel)
I *had *both, but sold Heibel. I rarely sell textbooks (only one of two I
can think of in 2 decades). Heibel seems to sell from virtually nothing
(what I paid for mine), to over $1000. (I made 10 dB or so proffit on the
book??).

Dunsmore is quite advanced, and discusses a lot of things you can't do with
affordable VNAs. I did notice a few typos. You might find an errata page.
There's a lot of emphasis on the time domain, which Joel done his PhD on.
You need pretty decent maths skills to follow it. I know the reviewer of
the book, and he loves lots of detailed maths.

Heibel is very superficial. It has colour photographs, but doesn't really
have much content. I'm a bit surprised that reviewer was keen on Heibel, as
my maths is pretty crap, but I found the book lacking in much substance.

Dave
Re: Which Vector network analysis book to buy - help

 

Thanks Caesar -

What does h say about the negative comment on reflection coefficient. That would be a bit hard to classify as a typo?

Cheers!

Bruce

Quoting Caesar Valenti <caesarv@...>:

According to Joel this morning, he knows there were a fair number of typos in the first edition.? Most of these were fixed in the second edition...in addition to new material.
CV
Re: Which Vector network analysis book to buy - help

 

According to Joel this morning, he knows there were a fair number of typos in the first edition.? Most of these were fixed in the second edition...in addition to new material.
CV
Photo Notifications #photo-notice

Group Notification
 

Jeremy Nichols <jn6wfo@...> added the album HP-3400A Option C87 With Meter Movement in RMS Watts : Option C87 provides the HP-3400A with a meter movement calibrated in dBw, Volts, and RMS Watts.

The following photos have been uploaded to the HP-3400A Option C87 (RMS Watts) album of the [email protected] group.

By: Jeremy Nichols <jn6wfo@...>
Re: HP instrument measuring ¡°RMS Power¡±

 

Photos of the front and back of my 3400A have been uploaded to an album entitled ¡°HP-3400A Option C87 (RMS Watts).¡± The url of the album is:?





On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 9:47 PM tgerbic <tgerbic@...> wrote:
Jeremy,
I don't think I have seen a 3400A with a scale in watts (option C87) can you send a clear photo of the front and the scale.

I also have a 3400A and it is a great meter with a crest factor like my 3456A.

--
T. Gerbic
Central California

--
Jeremy Nichols
6.
Re: Which Vector network analysis book to buy - help

 

On Sat, 3 Sept 2022 at 04:27, Bruce <bruce@...> wrote:
I intend to purchase either of both of the following books.? I do have an extensive collection of notes and articles but figure I need some good bedtime reading.? The candidate books are:
1) Handbook of Microwave Component measurement with Advanced VNA Techniques - (J.P. Dunsmore)
2) Fundamentals of Vector Network Analysis - (M.Heibel)
?
I had both, but sold Heibel. I rarely sell textbooks (only one of two I can think of in 2 decades).? Heibel seems to sell from virtually nothing (what I paid for mine), to over $1000. (I made 10 dB or so proffit on the book??).?

Dunsmore is quite advanced, and discusses a lot of things you can't do with affordable VNAs. I did notice a few typos. You might find an errata page. There's a lot of emphasis on the time domain, which Joel done his PhD on. You need pretty decent maths skills to follow it. I know the reviewer of the book, and he loves lots of detailed maths.

Heibel is very superficial. It has colour photographs, but doesn't really have much content. I'm a bit surprised that reviewer was keen on Heibel, as my maths is pretty crap, but I found the book lacking in much substance.?

Dave

Re: HP instrument measuring ¡°RMS Power¡±

 

On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 at 07:48, tgerbic <tgerbic@...> wrote:

The 434A is a calorimetric meter. It is calibrated using by measuring a DC power supply and the calibration port on the front provides a DC signal. I suspect it would effectively be RMS since it is the same wattage measurement for AC as DC.
--
T. Gerbic
Central California

The mean AC power provides the same heating as DC. So RMS watts have no practical use, but that doesn¡¯t stop them being used in the wrong places.?

For a sine wave feeding a resistor, the mean power dissipated in the resistor is not the same as the RMS power. I did once work out the maths of it, but can¡¯t recall the difference - if you Google RMS power, I am sure you will find articles showing ?RMS power is a pointless measurement.?

But as I note from both Analog Devices and Minicircuits, even big companies make the error occasionally.? Keysight seem immune - I can¡¯t see any Keysight products that claim to measure RMS power.?? But I have seen the term on some bit of test equipment. I thought it was old HP, but it might have been Marconi.?
--
Dr. David Kirkby,
Kirkby Microwave Ltd,
drkirkby@...

Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100

Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892.
Registered office:
Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, United Kingdom
Replacement OCXO board for 5315B

 

Hello everyone,

Just as a follow-up for the other topic (1820-2131 for the 5315B counter).

My 5315B came with Option 004, which is the high-stability OCXO. Unfortunately, the Ovenaire 85-50 oscillator had a problem with the heater which stayed cold, so it "worked" and generated a sinewave, but was 30 Hz away from its nominal 10.0000 MHz.

I decided to use another OCXO and got a Bliley NVG47A, for which I designed a PC board which mounts on the original bracket intended for the Ovenaire oscillator (re: attached pictures). No electrical or mechanical changes to the counter are needed.

I have a few bare PC boards which I'd be glad to sell for $1 each plus the price of mailing from France. If anybody is interested, please let me know !

Cheers,

Joel

DSCF7884-2048.jpg
DSCF7885-2048.jpg

Re: Chips for 5315A/B counter: 1820-2131 and 1820-2312

 

Hi Kevin,

Of course I'm still reading this thread ! Here's my 1820-2131 story.

The 1820-2131 is a Mostek MK3870 microcontroller which includes mask-programmed ROM. This chip was first produced by Mostek, then second-sourced by Motorola (I guess the 3870 series was never a part of Motorola's product line). Of course, this chip is now pure unobtainum.

I got a 5315B counter which needed a new 1820-2131. Fortunately, the mask-programmed 3870 can be replaced with a 38P70 (the "P" stands for "Piggyback") fitted with an external 2716 EPROM. Although not cheap, the 38P70 is still available on Epay. The next missing part is the microcode which I think was never published by HP.

Fortunately, Maurice Smulders had a disassembled version of the code, apparently read from a 1820-2131 chip by Sean Riddle. He was kind enough to send it to this group (re. his message on 08/18/19), so I burned it into a 2716, plugged it in my 5315A and crossed my fingers. With a little additional debugging, I got it to work :

- The 38P70 seems to require higher logic-high levels on inputs pins 38 (Ext/int) and 39 (/Reset). This is easily fixed by soldering two 100K pull-up resistors on the underside of the board.

- The 5315B worked, but upon power-up it displayed error E1. This code means the checksum mechanism in the microcode has detected a problem, which I was finally able to identify. The root cause is that the disassembly process generated incorrect data at address 0x7E8, which was an unused address in the original code. This byte must be changed to 0x2B:
?? ?7e6: b5??????? OUTS $05
?? ?7e7: 1c??????? POP
?? ?7e8: 2b??????? NOP????????? ; This byte corrected by JS on Oct 6, 2019
?? ?7e9: 2b??????? NOP
?? ?7ea: 2b??????? NOP

With the corrected file (and pull-up resistors), the "piggyback version" of the 1820-2131 works perfectly on a 5315B. I also tested it in a 5316A and it works just as great. A copy of the binary file is attached.

Comments welcome !

Cheers,

Joel

1820-2131corrected.asm
1820-2131corrected.asm

Re: HP instrument measuring ¡°RMS Power¡±

 

HP has quite a list of power meters starting in the 43x series numbers. I think all or nearly all are peak or average reading.? Most depend on a thermocouple or diode device to do the power measuring.

The 434A is a calorimetric meter. It is calibrated using by measuring a DC power supply and the calibration port on the front provides a DC signal. I suspect it would effectively be RMS since it is the same wattage measurement for AC as DC.
--
T. Gerbic
Central California
Re: HP instrument measuring ¡°RMS Power¡±

 

Jeremy,
I don't think I have seen a 3400A with a scale in watts (option C87) can you send a clear photo of the front and the scale.

I also have a 3400A and it is a great meter with a crest factor like my 3456A.

--
T. Gerbic
Central California
Which Vector network analysis book to buy - help

 

I intend to purchase either of both of the following books.? I do have an extensive collection of notes and articles but figure I need some good bedtime reading.? The candidate books are:
1) Handbook of Microwave Component measurement with Advanced VNA Techniques - (J.P. Dunsmore)
2) Fundamentals of Vector Network Analysis - (M.Heibel)

I would normally tend toward the HP publication as most of my equipment is HP and any examples would be directly relevant

BUT - I find following comments on the HP book and would like to get some comments from the group - PREFERABLY from people who have looked at both books in some detail.

a) Re the HP book
I bought this book on the recommendation of an Agilent application engineer. The author also works for Agilent.
The book is full of errors, typographical but also conceptual. For example the author mentions that the scattering parameter s11 is the input impedance of the network. Even a junior engineer knows that s11 is the reflection coefficient, whose value is always less or equal to 1 for all passive networks, whereas the input impedance can take arbitrary values as long as the real part is positive.
Furthermore the formula for the input impedance of a transmission line is incorrect, perhaps a trivial typographical error, but a strong indication that the author was copying formulas carelessly from other sources. In general, it shows superficial knowledge of the whole subject.
The book is below par for any solid theoretical issues. In contrast the book "Fundamentals of Vector Network Analysis" by M. Hiebel is of very high quality, explaining theoretical as wel as practical aspects of measurements. This is a publication by the Agilent competitor, the German company Rohde & Schwarz, and may be hard to get in this country.

B) Re the HP Book
I bought the book in an effort to divine a clear understanding of what's going on in a 3-port balun measurement on my VNA. I didn't get all that I'd hoped for. The text doesn't seem to "take you all the way". I felt at times that some of it was more like those teaser technical articles that promise details, but deliver generalities; as if perhaps Mr. Dunsmore was using this to attract consulting gigs, rather than impart useful, complete "how-to" information..

I find NO 1-4 star ratings for the R&S book, but I also find fewer reviews total.

SO What "enlightenment" can the group give me as to which to pick. - is the HP book really that"buggy"?? The S11 error seems to be a bit gross - could it have been a missed edit in an earlier version?

WHAT SAY? ALL ????
Re: HP instrument measuring ¡°RMS Power¡±

 

The HP 400EL meter has the top scale linear db from -10 to +2 and label 1mW 600 Ohms

John

On 9/2/2022 5:16 PM, Mikek wrote:
What is the option number for that? Should be tag on the back.
It looks like Option 1, is a db scale on the top line.
???????????????????????? Thank, Mikek
Re: How do you decipher HP serial numbers for date.

 

With computers it¡¯s easy the first two digits are the year after 1960 and the next two digits the week. ?I¡¯ve heard several different versions for instruments. The most common relates to the date the last changes were locked into the next evolution of the instrument. It is a year/week but I never heard how it was defined.?


I only did 10 years at HP from ¡®77 to ¡®87. Maybe some of the longer, ok older, guys will have better/different stuff

steve
Should I be worried?

 

When I powered up my MMS 22GHz SA this week and was greeted with this error.


When I run the analyzer self test it seems to pass. ?And I can change CF and spans and the error does not seem to appear. ?

Is there anything I should be doing to not make it worse?

Thanks
Dave

429F2EBF-3193-4E56-B970-227A4C45C332.jpeg

Re: funny doc typo

 

Probably automatic error correction on an HP computer.

Stuart K6YAZ
Los Angeles
Re: HP instrument measuring ¡°RMS Power¡±

 

You¡¯re right, it¡¯s Option C87. The option characters are typed on a silver/black Hewlett-Packard option label.?



On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 5:16 PM Mikek <amdx@...> wrote:
What is the option number for that? Should be tag on the back.
It looks like Option 1, is a db scale on the top line.
???????????????????????? Thank, Mikek

--
Jeremy Nichols
6.
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