Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
JBC- isn't that the British heavy equipment company? (backhoes, bulldozers and such)
-Dave
On Saturday, March 19, 2022, 05:35:04 PM PDT, Lothar baier <lothar@...> wrote:
Back when i was a kit there were no cheap tools , in Germany we had all small local stores selling tools and all of it was name brand quality stuff . As far as soldering irons concerned ERSA was the common name but you had to either go to CONRAD or order the iron, weller was mostly used by commercial users and out if reach for hobbyists at the time . Dad bought me a ERSA soldering station for Christmas when i was 12 and granny got hit up mostly for hand tools usually as birthday presents. I got aquainted with weller at my first job and then bought a rework station through my place of employment mostly because they got a hell of a discount, i stayed loyal to weller until i got a job at Nokia , they used JBC and once i used one of their stations I ditched weller > On Mar 19, 2022, at 15:52, Adrian Nicol via groups.io <Adrian= [email protected]> wrote: > > ?Hi Paul, yes 1949 for me! > > My Dad was at the Cavendish Labs in Cambridge so I got to cut my teeth on all sorts of discarded electronic bits and pieces, when I was about 12 he got a lift back in the Cavendish van with a vast, non-functional Cossor 1049 'scope "to see if I could fix it" - on reflection, should you really give a 12 year old a box with a beefy 400V HT and a 4KV half Amp EHT supply and suggest he pokes around inside it? - as it happened it was easy to fix and two gassey valves and a burnt out pot later I had my first scope (or 'Oscillograph' as it was actually called) It's still out in the barn somewhere, I should dig it out and see if it can be fired up one day - it had a very pretty blue phosphor in the tube I seem to recall and probably emits a lifetimes X-ray radiation dose in about 8 hours! > > First TV I fixed was a neighbour's Pye VT4 when I was about 14 I think, I got my first real mains electric shock on that too, learnt a valuable lesson about never assume always check! It was out of it's case sitting on my bench and I'd been getting ready to put it back before leaving for school. When got back, picked the chassis up to slide it into the case and ...Bam!... really got zapped but I knew I'd unplugged it before I left that morning. Of course what I didn't know was that my mum had plugged it back in to show the neighbour? how it was now all working.....we both learnt from that, she still dined out on how she nearly killed her son when she was in her 90's bless her. > > Adrian > >> On 19/03/2022 19:44, Paul Bicknell wrote: >> Hi Adrian >> >> I think I must be a few years younger than you as I was born in !957 >> I started learning with the Philips electronic kits think it was called EE8 at the age of 10 but already dismantled a TV during one holiday when I was about 6 >> >> Regards Paul? located south coast England >>?
>> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto: [email protected]] On Behalf Of Adrian Nicol >> Sent: 19 March 2022 19:32 >> To: [email protected]>> Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns! >> >> I also grew up in the UK and was at secondary school (age 11-16) in the early 1960s and had the same experience as Paul, because I went to a village college we also had 2 hours a week of what was known as 'Rural Science' added to the other practical subjects, we had just over half an acre of cultivated land, a small fruit orchard and a couple of large glasshouses where we got to put farming theory into practice (and took our share of the fruit and veg harvest home!). All practical subjects were taught with the view that we would likely be getting jobs that would need those skills for real too, so we got 'work experience' weeks from time to time where we were sent off to local companies for a week and worked on the shop floor. The result was mostly a whole bunch of very employable 16 year old kids leaving school with the basic skills and confidence to set us up for life. >> >> Oh yes, my first soldering was done with a fire-heated iron too, Dad gave me a crystal set kit for my 8th birthday and we sat up building it that night, heating the iron on the kitchen coal fire. Strange, that must have been March 1957 and I still remember that night so clearly! >> >> Adrian >> >>> On 19/03/2022 18:41, Paul Bicknell wrote: >>> Hi Dave regarding? good quality tools and how to use them >>> >>> In the UK when I was at school we had a minimum of 1? and a half >>> hours per week of Metalwork , Woodwork , Technical drawing? (total? 5 >>> Hours minimum ) this all changed and a new subject called ICT >>> relapsed it all with less than 2 hours a week? by a teacher that was >>> not able to do the subject >>> >>> So we ended up with a generation that never learnt how to use any >>> tools until they went to collage subsequently we have a generation >>> between 33 to 40 that are dangerous with a tool I also had to teach >>> several? electronic and mechanical graduates that had their degree how >>> to solder >>> >>> Personally I had a screw driver in my hand from the age of 5 and >>> bought my first electric soldering iron with my 10 birthday money as I >>> had difficulty soldering Jack plugs with an iron I had to worm up on >>> the gas stove >>> >>> And by the time I was 19 it was worn out and I replaced it with a >>> Weller that is still good 40 years later ( several new parts ) I must >>> admit it is difficult to convince someone 10? sets of plyers? in my >>> draw will cost ?600 to replace when they think they are worth ?30 and >>> ?40 would be to expensive >>> >>> Regards Paul >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected]>>> [mailto: [email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave >>> McGuire >>> Sent: 19 March 2022 15:54 >>> To: [email protected]>>> Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns! >>> >>> On 3/19/22 01:55, Alexandre Souza wrote: >>>> Hey, bad-mood-Dave! >>>? ? Well it's good to be known for something, at least. :-) >>> >>>> Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was >>>> (still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools >>>> in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro" >>>> I understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first >>>> weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it! >>>? ? :-) >>> >>>> But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just >>>> because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive >>>> fot 98% of all us Brazilians >>>> >>>> I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't >>>> afford anything. Been there... >>>? ? I see your point.? I think (and my thoughts on this are evolving with the help of this conversation) that the biggest problem I have is the younger folk not understanding or believing when/if these cheap Chinese instruments are inferior. >>> >>>? ? "Hahahaa, you're dumb, you spend thousands of dollars for an oscilloscope, but I got one for thirty bucks!!"? They're all equivalent in the eyes of many of these people, it seems. >>> >>>? ? My thinking is that, whenever possible, we should be mindful of WHY people like us have respect for high-end equipment, and impart that knowledge to the younger generations, so they can appreciate them too. >>> >>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave >>> >>> -- >>> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >>> New Kensington, PA >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > >
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
When you talking about phillips EE kits are you talking about the things that used the blue hole plates and springs to clip the parts ?
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On Mar 19, 2022, at 19:35, Lothar baier via groups.io <Lothar@...> wrote:
?Back when i was a kit there were no cheap tools , in Germany we had all small local stores selling tools and all of it was name brand quality stuff .
As far as soldering irons concerned ERSA was the common name but you had to either go to CONRAD or order the iron, weller was mostly used by commercial users and out if reach for hobbyists at the time .
Dad bought me a ERSA soldering station for Christmas when i was 12 and granny got hit up mostly for hand tools usually as birthday presents.
I got aquainted with weller at my first job and then bought a rework station through my place of employment mostly because they got a hell of a discount, i stayed loyal to weller until i got a job at Nokia , they used JBC and once i used one of their stations I ditched weller
On Mar 19, 2022, at 15:52, Adrian Nicol via groups.io <Adrian@...> wrote:
?Hi Paul, yes 1949 for me!
My Dad was at the Cavendish Labs in Cambridge so I got to cut my teeth on all sorts of discarded electronic bits and pieces, when I was about 12 he got a lift back in the Cavendish van with a vast, non-functional Cossor 1049 'scope "to see if I could fix it" - on reflection, should you really give a 12 year old a box with a beefy 400V HT and a 4KV half Amp EHT supply and suggest he pokes around inside it? - as it happened it was easy to fix and two gassey valves and a burnt out pot later I had my first scope (or 'Oscillograph' as it was actually called) It's still out in the barn somewhere, I should dig it out and see if it can be fired up one day - it had a very pretty blue phosphor in the tube I seem to recall and probably emits a lifetimes X-ray radiation dose in about 8 hours!
First TV I fixed was a neighbour's Pye VT4 when I was about 14 I think, I got my first real mains electric shock on that too, learnt a valuable lesson about never assume always check! It was out of it's case sitting on my bench and I'd been getting ready to put it back before leaving for school. When got back, picked the chassis up to slide it into the case and ...Bam!... really got zapped but I knew I'd unplugged it before I left that morning. Of course what I didn't know was that my mum had plugged it back in to show the neighbour how it was now all working.....we both learnt from that, she still dined out on how she nearly killed her son when she was in her 90's bless her.
Adrian
On 19/03/2022 19:44, Paul Bicknell wrote: Hi Adrian
I think I must be a few years younger than you as I was born in !957
I started learning with the Philips electronic kits think it was called EE8 at the age of 10 but already dismantled a TV during one holiday when I was about 6
Regards Paul located south coast England
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Adrian Nicol
Sent: 19 March 2022 19:32
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
I also grew up in the UK and was at secondary school (age 11-16) in the early 1960s and had the same experience as Paul, because I went to a village college we also had 2 hours a week of what was known as 'Rural Science' added to the other practical subjects, we had just over half an acre of cultivated land, a small fruit orchard and a couple of large glasshouses where we got to put farming theory into practice (and took our share of the fruit and veg harvest home!). All practical subjects were taught with the view that we would likely be getting jobs that would need those skills for real too, so we got 'work experience' weeks from time to time where we were sent off to local companies for a week and worked on the shop floor. The result was mostly a whole bunch of very employable 16 year old kids leaving school with the basic skills and confidence to set us up for life.
Oh yes, my first soldering was done with a fire-heated iron too, Dad gave me a crystal set kit for my 8th birthday and we sat up building it that night, heating the iron on the kitchen coal fire. Strange, that must have been March 1957 and I still remember that night so clearly!
Adrian
On 19/03/2022 18:41, Paul Bicknell wrote:
Hi Dave regarding good quality tools and how to use them
In the UK when I was at school we had a minimum of 1 and a half
hours per week of Metalwork , Woodwork , Technical drawing (total 5
Hours minimum ) this all changed and a new subject called ICT
relapsed it all with less than 2 hours a week by a teacher that was
not able to do the subject
So we ended up with a generation that never learnt how to use any
tools until they went to collage subsequently we have a generation
between 33 to 40 that are dangerous with a tool I also had to teach
several electronic and mechanical graduates that had their degree how
to solder
Personally I had a screw driver in my hand from the age of 5 and
bought my first electric soldering iron with my 10 birthday money as I
had difficulty soldering Jack plugs with an iron I had to worm up on
the gas stove
And by the time I was 19 it was worn out and I replaced it with a
Weller that is still good 40 years later ( several new parts ) I must
admit it is difficult to convince someone 10 sets of plyers in my
draw will cost ?600 to replace when they think they are worth ?30 and
?40 would be to expensive
Regards Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave
McGuire
Sent: 19 March 2022 15:54
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
On 3/19/22 01:55, Alexandre Souza wrote:
Hey, bad-mood-Dave! Well it's good to be known for something, at least. :-)
Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was
(still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools
in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro"
I understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first
weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it! :-)
But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just
because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive
fot 98% of all us Brazilians
I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't
afford anything. Been there... I see your point. I think (and my thoughts on this are evolving with the help of this conversation) that the biggest problem I have is the younger folk not understanding or believing when/if these cheap Chinese instruments are inferior.
"Hahahaa, you're dumb, you spend thousands of dollars for an oscilloscope, but I got one for thirty bucks!!" They're all equivalent in the eyes of many of these people, it seems.
My thinking is that, whenever possible, we should be mindful of WHY people like us have respect for high-end equipment, and impart that knowledge to the younger generations, so they can appreciate them too.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Back when i was a kit there were no cheap tools , in Germany we had all small local stores selling tools and all of it was name brand quality stuff .
As far as soldering irons concerned ERSA was the common name but you had to either go to CONRAD or order the iron, weller was mostly used by commercial users and out if reach for hobbyists at the time .
Dad bought me a ERSA soldering station for Christmas when i was 12 and granny got hit up mostly for hand tools usually as birthday presents.
I got aquainted with weller at my first job and then bought a rework station through my place of employment mostly because they got a hell of a discount, i stayed loyal to weller until i got a job at Nokia , they used JBC and once i used one of their stations I ditched weller
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Mar 19, 2022, at 15:52, Adrian Nicol via groups.io <Adrian@...> wrote:
?Hi Paul, yes 1949 for me!
My Dad was at the Cavendish Labs in Cambridge so I got to cut my teeth on all sorts of discarded electronic bits and pieces, when I was about 12 he got a lift back in the Cavendish van with a vast, non-functional Cossor 1049 'scope "to see if I could fix it" - on reflection, should you really give a 12 year old a box with a beefy 400V HT and a 4KV half Amp EHT supply and suggest he pokes around inside it? - as it happened it was easy to fix and two gassey valves and a burnt out pot later I had my first scope (or 'Oscillograph' as it was actually called) It's still out in the barn somewhere, I should dig it out and see if it can be fired up one day - it had a very pretty blue phosphor in the tube I seem to recall and probably emits a lifetimes X-ray radiation dose in about 8 hours!
First TV I fixed was a neighbour's Pye VT4 when I was about 14 I think, I got my first real mains electric shock on that too, learnt a valuable lesson about never assume always check! It was out of it's case sitting on my bench and I'd been getting ready to put it back before leaving for school. When got back, picked the chassis up to slide it into the case and ...Bam!... really got zapped but I knew I'd unplugged it before I left that morning. Of course what I didn't know was that my mum had plugged it back in to show the neighbour how it was now all working.....we both learnt from that, she still dined out on how she nearly killed her son when she was in her 90's bless her.
Adrian
On 19/03/2022 19:44, Paul Bicknell wrote:
Hi Adrian
I think I must be a few years younger than you as I was born in !957
I started learning with the Philips electronic kits think it was called EE8 at the age of 10 but already dismantled a TV during one holiday when I was about 6
Regards Paul located south coast England
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Adrian Nicol
Sent: 19 March 2022 19:32
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
I also grew up in the UK and was at secondary school (age 11-16) in the early 1960s and had the same experience as Paul, because I went to a village college we also had 2 hours a week of what was known as 'Rural Science' added to the other practical subjects, we had just over half an acre of cultivated land, a small fruit orchard and a couple of large glasshouses where we got to put farming theory into practice (and took our share of the fruit and veg harvest home!). All practical subjects were taught with the view that we would likely be getting jobs that would need those skills for real too, so we got 'work experience' weeks from time to time where we were sent off to local companies for a week and worked on the shop floor. The result was mostly a whole bunch of very employable 16 year old kids leaving school with the basic skills and confidence to set us up for life.
Oh yes, my first soldering was done with a fire-heated iron too, Dad gave me a crystal set kit for my 8th birthday and we sat up building it that night, heating the iron on the kitchen coal fire. Strange, that must have been March 1957 and I still remember that night so clearly!
Adrian
On 19/03/2022 18:41, Paul Bicknell wrote:
Hi Dave regarding good quality tools and how to use them
In the UK when I was at school we had a minimum of 1 and a half
hours per week of Metalwork , Woodwork , Technical drawing (total 5
Hours minimum ) this all changed and a new subject called ICT
relapsed it all with less than 2 hours a week by a teacher that was
not able to do the subject
So we ended up with a generation that never learnt how to use any
tools until they went to collage subsequently we have a generation
between 33 to 40 that are dangerous with a tool I also had to teach
several electronic and mechanical graduates that had their degree how
to solder
Personally I had a screw driver in my hand from the age of 5 and
bought my first electric soldering iron with my 10 birthday money as I
had difficulty soldering Jack plugs with an iron I had to worm up on
the gas stove
And by the time I was 19 it was worn out and I replaced it with a
Weller that is still good 40 years later ( several new parts ) I must
admit it is difficult to convince someone 10 sets of plyers in my
draw will cost ?600 to replace when they think they are worth ?30 and
?40 would be to expensive
Regards Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave
McGuire
Sent: 19 March 2022 15:54
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
On 3/19/22 01:55, Alexandre Souza wrote:
Hey, bad-mood-Dave! Well it's good to be known for something, at least. :-)
Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was
(still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools
in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro"
I understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first
weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it! :-)
But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just
because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive
fot 98% of all us Brazilians
I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't
afford anything. Been there... I see your point. I think (and my thoughts on this are evolving with the help of this conversation) that the biggest problem I have is the younger folk not understanding or believing when/if these cheap Chinese instruments are inferior.
"Hahahaa, you're dumb, you spend thousands of dollars for an oscilloscope, but I got one for thirty bucks!!" They're all equivalent in the eyes of many of these people, it seems.
My thinking is that, whenever possible, we should be mindful of WHY people like us have respect for high-end equipment, and impart that knowledge to the younger generations, so they can appreciate them too.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
My father had an electronics business in the 80s. Ham radio stuff,
some computer and video game things. That business was mostly wound up
by the time I was born, but all the parts and equipment were still
there and he taught me about it. I learned to solder when I was seven,
and dad taught me the basics. When the internet came along I became
more self-teaching and learned how to use transistors, etc. I learned
more in college, of course, and by experience.
I think kids are really lucky nowadays - if their parents know how to
support these interests. The breadth of stuff available, and so
cheaply, is amazing, especially in terms of microcontrollers. When I
was a kid there was the BASIC STAMP, but it was so expensive I only
had one and that felt kinda limiting (plus the device itself was very
weak.) There were the Microchip PIC parts which I at the time wanted
to learn more about but wasn't sure of the pathway to, and the 8 bit
era stuff I had access to and could tinker with but was beyond my
14-year-old self's abilities to get running from scratch. So I would
build robots and other projects with, like, a whole thrift store 8 bit
micro or a junker PC to control them.
Contrast nowadays, where for a few bucks you can have a 32 bit ARM
micro in a bread-boardable form factor with a complete suite of open
source software including IDE. Not to mention similar microcontroller
modules that have wifi, AI image recognition, FPGAs...
There are plenty of other technical things to mess with that can get
kids interested in engineering. 3D printers and drones and stuff can
be built from a kit. I wish you could build a HeathKit smartphone but
for technological reasons that has probably passed. Maybe someone
should think of ways to get kids interested in digital modes for ham
radio.
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
For me it was the mid-1960s, when I was in year 9 high school I think. Our 21" STC TV had lost sync. I asked mum if I could have a go fixing it. She looked me in the face and could see that I was desperate to have a go. So she said go ahead, seeing it was already broken. After all, what harm could I do? It took me 3 days to work out that the 6CS6 was the sync separator. I went out and bought a new one, plugged it in and bingo! From then on my reputation seemed to spread, and I made good pocket money after school fixing radios and TVs for friends. Those were the good old days!
Cheers,
George
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto: [email protected]] On Behalf Of Adrian Nicol Sent: Sunday, 20 March 2022 7:53 AM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns! Hi Paul, yes 1949 for me! My Dad was at the Cavendish Labs in Cambridge so I got to cut my teeth on all sorts of discarded electronic bits and pieces, when I was about 12 he got a lift back in the Cavendish van with a vast, non-functional Cossor 1049 'scope "to see if I could fix it" - on reflection, should you really give a 12 year old a box with a beefy 400V HT and a 4KV half Amp EHT supply and suggest he pokes around inside it? - as it happened it was easy to fix and two gassey valves and a burnt out pot later I had my first scope (or 'Oscillograph' as it was actually called) It's still out in the barn somewhere, I should dig it out and see if it can be fired up one day - it had a very pretty blue phosphor in the tube I seem to recall and probably emits a lifetimes X-ray radiation dose in about 8 hours! First TV I fixed was a neighbour's Pye VT4 when I was about 14 I think, I got my first real mains electric shock on that too, learnt a valuable lesson about never assume always check! It was out of it's case sitting on my bench and I'd been getting ready to put it back before leaving for school. When got back, picked the chassis up to slide it into the case and ...Bam!... really got zapped but I knew I'd unplugged it before I left that morning. Of course what I didn't know was that my mum had plugged it back in to show the neighbour how it was now all working.....we both learnt from that, she still dined out on how she nearly killed her son when she was in her 90's bless her. Adrian On 19/03/2022 19:44, Paul Bicknell wrote: Hi Adrian
I think I must be a few years younger than you as I was born in !957
I started learning with the Philips electronic kits think it was called EE8 at the age of 10 but already dismantled a TV during one holiday when I was about 6
Regards Paul located south coast England
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Adrian Nicol
Sent: 19 March 2022 19:32
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
I also grew up in the UK and was at secondary school (age 11-16) in the early 1960s and had the same experience as Paul, because I went to a village college we also had 2 hours a week of what was known as 'Rural Science' added to the other practical subjects, we had just over half an acre of cultivated land, a small fruit orchard and a couple of large glasshouses where we got to put farming theory into practice (and took our share of the fruit and veg harvest home!). All practical subjects were taught with the view that we would likely be getting jobs that would need those skills for real too, so we got 'work experience' weeks from time to time where we were sent off to local companies for a week and worked on the shop floor. The result was mostly a whole bunch of very employable 16 year old kids leaving school with the basic skills and confidence to set us up for life.
Oh yes, my first soldering was done with a fire-heated iron too, Dad gave me a crystal set kit for my 8th birthday and we sat up building it that night, heating the iron on the kitchen coal fire. Strange, that must have been March 1957 and I still remember that night so clearly!
Adrian
On 19/03/2022 18:41, Paul Bicknell wrote:
Hi Dave regarding good quality tools and how to use them
In the UK when I was at school we had a minimum of 1 and a half
hours per week of Metalwork , Woodwork , Technical drawing (total 5
Hours minimum ) this all changed and a new subject called ICT
relapsed it all with less than 2 hours a week by a teacher that was
not able to do the subject
So we ended up with a generation that never learnt how to use any
tools until they went to collage subsequently we have a generation
between 33 to 40 that are dangerous with a tool I also had to teach
several electronic and mechanical graduates that had their degree how
to solder
Personally I had a screw driver in my hand from the age of 5 and
bought my first electric soldering iron with my 10 birthday money as I
had difficulty soldering Jack plugs with an iron I had to worm up on
the gas stove
And by the time I was 19 it was worn out and I replaced it with a
Weller that is still good 40 years later ( several new parts ) I must
admit it is difficult to convince someone 10 sets of plyers in my
draw will cost ?600 to replace when they think they are worth ?30 and
?40 would be to expensive
Regards Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave
McGuire
Sent: 19 March 2022 15:54
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
On 3/19/22 01:55, Alexandre Souza wrote:
Hey, bad-mood-Dave! Well it's good to be known for something, at least. :-)
Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was
(still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools
in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro"
I understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first
weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it! :-)
But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just
because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive
fot 98% of all us Brazilians
I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't
afford anything. Been there... I see your point. I think (and my thoughts on this are evolving with the help of this conversation) that the biggest problem I have is the younger folk not understanding or believing when/if these cheap Chinese instruments are inferior.
"Hahahaa, you're dumb, you spend thousands of dollars for an oscilloscope, but I got one for thirty bucks!!" They're all equivalent in the eyes of many of these people, it seems.
My thinking is that, whenever possible, we should be mindful of WHY people like us have respect for high-end equipment, and impart that knowledge to the younger generations, so they can appreciate them too.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
In Argentina we had Lupin Eletronica magazine, I do my first experiments with them. I was 8 yo when started. I do electron tube radio receiver ( very simple ) but my father don¡¯t let me to connect to hv. He used to test my first circuits that of corse don¡¯t worked unless her help. My father was avionics technician on Argentinian Air Force. In resume a life with electronics , a very fun life!! I keep that special feeling each time manage to ¡°align the electrons ¡° .? Ing. Patricio A. GrecoTaller Aeron¨¢utico de Reparaci¨®n 1B-349Organizaci¨®n de Mantenimiento Aeron¨¢utico de la Defensa OMAD-001Gral. Mart¨ªn Rodr¨ªguez 2159San Miguel (1663)Buenos AiresT:?+5411-4455-2557F:?+5411-4032-0072
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On 19 Mar 2022, at 19:30, Tom Gardner <tggzzz@...> wrote:
? Ditto. I still have few bits of my EE20 knocking around.I presume you have seenhttp://www.hansotten.com/electronic-kits/ee-series/ee8-ee20-a20/andhttps://archive.org/details/ee20-colour-enI don't have any of the concentrated HCl + iron sulphate my father bought home on the bus, but I do have some lumps of sodium - and the red hot (soldering) poker.On 19/03/22 19:44, Paul Bicknell wrote:Hi Adrian
I think I must be a few years younger than you as I was born in !957
I started learning with the Philips electronic kits think it was called EE8 at the age of 10 but already dismantled a TV during one holiday when I was about 6
Regards Paul ?located south coast England
?
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Adrian Nicol
Sent: 19 March 2022 19:32
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
I also grew up in the UK and was at secondary school (age 11-16) in the early 1960s and had the same experience as Paul, because I went to a village college we also had 2 hours a week of what was known as 'Rural Science' added to the other practical subjects, we had just over half an acre of cultivated land, a small fruit orchard and a couple of large glasshouses where we got to put farming theory into practice (and took our share of the fruit and veg harvest home!). All practical subjects were taught with the view that we would likely be getting jobs that would need those skills for real too, so we got 'work experience' weeks from time to time where we were sent off to local companies for a week and worked on the shop floor. The result was mostly a whole bunch of very employable 16 year old kids leaving school with the basic skills and confidence to set us up for life.
Oh yes, my first soldering was done with a fire-heated iron too, Dad gave me a crystal set kit for my 8th birthday and we sat up building it that night, heating the iron on the kitchen coal fire. Strange, that must have been March 1957 and I still remember that night so clearly!
Adrian
On 19/03/2022 18:41, Paul Bicknell wrote:
Hi Dave regarding ?good quality tools and how to use them
In the UK when I was at school we had a minimum of 1 ?and a half
hours per week of Metalwork , Woodwork , Technical drawing ?(total ?5
Hours minimum ) this all changed and a new subject called ICT
relapsed it all with less than 2 hours a week ?by a teacher that was
not able to do the subject
So we ended up with a generation that never learnt how to use any
tools until they went to collage subsequently we have a generation
between 33 to 40 that are dangerous with a tool I also had to teach
several ?electronic and mechanical graduates that had their degree how
to solder
Personally I had a screw driver in my hand from the age of 5 and
bought my first electric soldering iron with my 10 birthday money as I
had difficulty soldering Jack plugs with an iron I had to worm up on
the gas stove
And by the time I was 19 it was worn out and I replaced it with a
Weller that is still good 40 years later ( several new parts ) I must
admit it is difficult to convince someone 10 ?sets of plyers ?in my
draw will cost ?600 to replace when they think they are worth ?30 and
?40 would be to expensive
Regards Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave
McGuire
Sent: 19 March 2022 15:54
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
On 3/19/22 01:55, Alexandre Souza wrote:
Hey, bad-mood-Dave!
????Well it's good to be known for something, at least. :-)
Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was
(still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools
in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro"
I understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first
weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it!
????:-)
But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just
because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive
fot 98% of all us Brazilians
I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't
afford anything. Been there...
????I see your point. ?I think (and my thoughts on this are evolving with the help of this conversation) that the biggest problem I have is the younger folk not understanding or believing when/if these cheap Chinese instruments are inferior.
????"Hahahaa, you're dumb, you spend thousands of dollars for an oscilloscope, but I got one for thirty bucks!!" ?They're all equivalent in the eyes of many of these people, it seems.
????My thinking is that, whenever possible, we should be mindful of WHY people like us have respect for high-end equipment, and impart that knowledge to the younger generations, so they can appreciate them too.
??????????????-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Ditto. I still have few bits of my EE20 knocking around.
I presume you have seen
and
I don't have any of the concentrated HCl + iron sulphate my father bought home on the bus, but I do have some lumps of sodium - and the red hot (soldering) poker.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 19/03/22 19:44, Paul Bicknell wrote: Hi Adrian
I think I must be a few years younger than you as I was born in !957
I started learning with the Philips electronic kits think it was called EE8 at the age of 10 but already dismantled a TV during one holiday when I was about 6
Regards Paul located south coast England
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Adrian Nicol
Sent: 19 March 2022 19:32
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
I also grew up in the UK and was at secondary school (age 11-16) in the early 1960s and had the same experience as Paul, because I went to a village college we also had 2 hours a week of what was known as 'Rural Science' added to the other practical subjects, we had just over half an acre of cultivated land, a small fruit orchard and a couple of large glasshouses where we got to put farming theory into practice (and took our share of the fruit and veg harvest home!). All practical subjects were taught with the view that we would likely be getting jobs that would need those skills for real too, so we got 'work experience' weeks from time to time where we were sent off to local companies for a week and worked on the shop floor. The result was mostly a whole bunch of very employable 16 year old kids leaving school with the basic skills and confidence to set us up for life.
Oh yes, my first soldering was done with a fire-heated iron too, Dad gave me a crystal set kit for my 8th birthday and we sat up building it that night, heating the iron on the kitchen coal fire. Strange, that must have been March 1957 and I still remember that night so clearly!
Adrian
On 19/03/2022 18:41, Paul Bicknell wrote:
Hi Dave regarding good quality tools and how to use them
In the UK when I was at school we had a minimum of 1 and a half
hours per week of Metalwork , Woodwork , Technical drawing (total 5
Hours minimum ) this all changed and a new subject called ICT
relapsed it all with less than 2 hours a week by a teacher that was
not able to do the subject
So we ended up with a generation that never learnt how to use any
tools until they went to collage subsequently we have a generation
between 33 to 40 that are dangerous with a tool I also had to teach
several electronic and mechanical graduates that had their degree how
to solder
Personally I had a screw driver in my hand from the age of 5 and
bought my first electric soldering iron with my 10 birthday money as I
had difficulty soldering Jack plugs with an iron I had to worm up on
the gas stove
And by the time I was 19 it was worn out and I replaced it with a
Weller that is still good 40 years later ( several new parts ) I must
admit it is difficult to convince someone 10 sets of plyers in my
draw will cost ?600 to replace when they think they are worth ?30 and
?40 would be to expensive
Regards Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave
McGuire
Sent: 19 March 2022 15:54
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
On 3/19/22 01:55, Alexandre Souza wrote:
Hey, bad-mood-Dave! Well it's good to be known for something, at least. :-)
Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was
(still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools
in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro"
I understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first
weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it! :-)
But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just
because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive
fot 98% of all us Brazilians
I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't
afford anything. Been there... I see your point. I think (and my thoughts on this are evolving with the help of this conversation) that the biggest problem I have is the younger folk not understanding or believing when/if these cheap Chinese instruments are inferior.
"Hahahaa, you're dumb, you spend thousands of dollars for an oscilloscope, but I got one for thirty bucks!!" They're all equivalent in the eyes of many of these people, it seems.
My thinking is that, whenever possible, we should be mindful of WHY people like us have respect for high-end equipment, and impart that knowledge to the younger generations, so they can appreciate them too.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Hi Paul, yes 1949 for me!
My Dad was at the Cavendish Labs in Cambridge so I got to cut my teeth on all sorts of discarded electronic bits and pieces, when I was about 12 he got a lift back in the Cavendish van with a vast, non-functional Cossor 1049 'scope "to see if I could fix it" - on reflection, should you really give a 12 year old a box with a beefy 400V HT and a 4KV half Amp EHT supply and suggest he pokes around inside it? - as it happened it was easy to fix and two gassey valves and a burnt out pot later I had my first scope (or 'Oscillograph' as it was actually called) It's still out in the barn somewhere, I should dig it out and see if it can be fired up one day - it had a very pretty blue phosphor in the tube I seem to recall and probably emits a lifetimes X-ray radiation dose in about 8 hours!
First TV I fixed was a neighbour's Pye VT4 when I was about 14 I think, I got my first real mains electric shock on that too, learnt a valuable lesson about never assume always check! It was out of it's case sitting on my bench and I'd been getting ready to put it back before leaving for school. When got back, picked the chassis up to slide it into the case and ...Bam!... really got zapped but I knew I'd unplugged it before I left that morning. Of course what I didn't know was that my mum had plugged it back in to show the neighbour? how it was now all working.....we both learnt from that, she still dined out on how she nearly killed her son when she was in her 90's bless her.
Adrian
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Show quoted text
On 19/03/2022 19:44, Paul Bicknell wrote: Hi Adrian
I think I must be a few years younger than you as I was born in !957
I started learning with the Philips electronic kits think it was called EE8 at the age of 10 but already dismantled a TV during one holiday when I was about 6
Regards Paul located south coast England
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Adrian Nicol
Sent: 19 March 2022 19:32
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
I also grew up in the UK and was at secondary school (age 11-16) in the early 1960s and had the same experience as Paul, because I went to a village college we also had 2 hours a week of what was known as 'Rural Science' added to the other practical subjects, we had just over half an acre of cultivated land, a small fruit orchard and a couple of large glasshouses where we got to put farming theory into practice (and took our share of the fruit and veg harvest home!). All practical subjects were taught with the view that we would likely be getting jobs that would need those skills for real too, so we got 'work experience' weeks from time to time where we were sent off to local companies for a week and worked on the shop floor. The result was mostly a whole bunch of very employable 16 year old kids leaving school with the basic skills and confidence to set us up for life.
Oh yes, my first soldering was done with a fire-heated iron too, Dad gave me a crystal set kit for my 8th birthday and we sat up building it that night, heating the iron on the kitchen coal fire. Strange, that must have been March 1957 and I still remember that night so clearly!
Adrian
On 19/03/2022 18:41, Paul Bicknell wrote:
Hi Dave regarding good quality tools and how to use them
In the UK when I was at school we had a minimum of 1 and a half
hours per week of Metalwork , Woodwork , Technical drawing (total 5
Hours minimum ) this all changed and a new subject called ICT
relapsed it all with less than 2 hours a week by a teacher that was
not able to do the subject
So we ended up with a generation that never learnt how to use any
tools until they went to collage subsequently we have a generation
between 33 to 40 that are dangerous with a tool I also had to teach
several electronic and mechanical graduates that had their degree how
to solder
Personally I had a screw driver in my hand from the age of 5 and
bought my first electric soldering iron with my 10 birthday money as I
had difficulty soldering Jack plugs with an iron I had to worm up on
the gas stove
And by the time I was 19 it was worn out and I replaced it with a
Weller that is still good 40 years later ( several new parts ) I must
admit it is difficult to convince someone 10 sets of plyers in my
draw will cost ?600 to replace when they think they are worth ?30 and
?40 would be to expensive
Regards Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave
McGuire
Sent: 19 March 2022 15:54
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
On 3/19/22 01:55, Alexandre Souza wrote:
Hey, bad-mood-Dave! Well it's good to be known for something, at least. :-)
Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was
(still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools
in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro"
I understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first
weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it! :-)
But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just
because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive
fot 98% of all us Brazilians
I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't
afford anything. Been there... I see your point. I think (and my thoughts on this are evolving with the help of this conversation) that the biggest problem I have is the younger folk not understanding or believing when/if these cheap Chinese instruments are inferior.
"Hahahaa, you're dumb, you spend thousands of dollars for an oscilloscope, but I got one for thirty bucks!!" They're all equivalent in the eyes of many of these people, it seems.
My thinking is that, whenever possible, we should be mindful of WHY people like us have respect for high-end equipment, and impart that knowledge to the younger generations, so they can appreciate them too.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Growing up in Germany we had shopclass as well as technical drawing , later when I learned a trade we had to go to vocational school once a week and beside of all the electronics stuff we also had metal working
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On Mar 19, 2022, at 14:32, Adrian Nicol via groups.io <Adrian@...> wrote:
?I also grew up in the UK and was at secondary school (age 11-16) in the early 1960s and had the same experience as Paul, because I went to a village college we also had 2 hours a week of what was known as 'Rural Science' added to the other practical subjects, we had just over half an acre of cultivated land, a small fruit orchard and a couple of large glasshouses where we got to put farming theory into practice (and took our share of the fruit and veg harvest home!). All practical subjects were taught with the view that we would likely be getting jobs that would need those skills for real too, so we got 'work experience' weeks from time to time where we were sent off to local companies for a week and worked on the shop floor. The result was mostly a whole bunch of very employable 16 year old kids leaving school with the basic skills and confidence to set us up for life.
Oh yes, my first soldering was done with a fire-heated iron too, Dad gave me a crystal set kit for my 8th birthday and we sat up building it that night, heating the iron on the kitchen coal fire. Strange, that must have been March 1957 and I still remember that night so clearly!
Adrian
On 19/03/2022 18:41, Paul Bicknell wrote:
Hi Dave regarding good quality tools and how to use them
In the UK when I was at school we had a minimum of 1 and a half hours per week of Metalwork , Woodwork , Technical drawing (total 5 Hours minimum )
this all changed and a new subject called ICT relapsed it all with less than 2 hours a week by a teacher that was not able to do the subject
So we ended up with a generation that never learnt how to use any tools until they went to collage subsequently we have a generation between 33 to 40 that are dangerous with a tool
I also had to teach several electronic and mechanical graduates that had their degree how to solder
Personally I had a screw driver in my hand from the age of 5 and bought my first electric soldering iron with my 10 birthday money as I had difficulty soldering Jack plugs with an iron I had to worm up on the gas stove
And by the time I was 19 it was worn out and I replaced it with a Weller that is still good 40 years later ( several new parts )
I must admit it is difficult to convince someone 10 sets of plyers in my draw will cost ?600 to replace when they think they are worth ?30 and ?40 would be to expensive
Regards Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: 19 March 2022 15:54
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
On 3/19/22 01:55, Alexandre Souza wrote:
Hey, bad-mood-Dave! Well it's good to be known for something, at least. :-)
Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was
(still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools
in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro" I
understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first
weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it! :-)
But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just
because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive
fot 98% of all us Brazilians
I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't
afford anything. Been there... I see your point. I think (and my thoughts on this are evolving with the help of this conversation) that the biggest problem I have is the younger folk not understanding or believing when/if these cheap Chinese instruments are inferior.
"Hahahaa, you're dumb, you spend thousands of dollars for an oscilloscope, but I got one for thirty bucks!!" They're all equivalent in the eyes of many of these people, it seems.
My thinking is that, whenever possible, we should be mindful of WHY people like us have respect for high-end equipment, and impart that knowledge to the younger generations, so they can appreciate them too.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Hi Adrian
I think I must be a few years younger than you as I was born in !957
I started learning with the Philips electronic kits think it was called EE8 at the age of 10 but already dismantled a TV during one holiday when I was about 6
Regards Paul located south coast England
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto: [email protected]] On Behalf Of Adrian Nicol Sent: 19 March 2022 19:32 To: [email protected]Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns! I also grew up in the UK and was at secondary school (age 11-16) in the early 1960s and had the same experience as Paul, because I went to a village college we also had 2 hours a week of what was known as 'Rural Science' added to the other practical subjects, we had just over half an acre of cultivated land, a small fruit orchard and a couple of large glasshouses where we got to put farming theory into practice (and took our share of the fruit and veg harvest home!). All practical subjects were taught with the view that we would likely be getting jobs that would need those skills for real too, so we got 'work experience' weeks from time to time where we were sent off to local companies for a week and worked on the shop floor. The result was mostly a whole bunch of very employable 16 year old kids leaving school with the basic skills and confidence to set us up for life. Oh yes, my first soldering was done with a fire-heated iron too, Dad gave me a crystal set kit for my 8th birthday and we sat up building it that night, heating the iron on the kitchen coal fire. Strange, that must have been March 1957 and I still remember that night so clearly! Adrian On 19/03/2022 18:41, Paul Bicknell wrote: Hi Dave regarding good quality tools and how to use them
In the UK when I was at school we had a minimum of 1 and a half
hours per week of Metalwork , Woodwork , Technical drawing (total 5
Hours minimum ) this all changed and a new subject called ICT
relapsed it all with less than 2 hours a week by a teacher that was
not able to do the subject
So we ended up with a generation that never learnt how to use any
tools until they went to collage subsequently we have a generation
between 33 to 40 that are dangerous with a tool I also had to teach
several electronic and mechanical graduates that had their degree how
to solder
Personally I had a screw driver in my hand from the age of 5 and
bought my first electric soldering iron with my 10 birthday money as I
had difficulty soldering Jack plugs with an iron I had to worm up on
the gas stove
And by the time I was 19 it was worn out and I replaced it with a
Weller that is still good 40 years later ( several new parts ) I must
admit it is difficult to convince someone 10 sets of plyers in my
draw will cost ?600 to replace when they think they are worth ?30 and
?40 would be to expensive
Regards Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave
McGuire
Sent: 19 March 2022 15:54
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
On 3/19/22 01:55, Alexandre Souza wrote:
Hey, bad-mood-Dave! Well it's good to be known for something, at least. :-)
Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was
(still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools
in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro"
I understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first
weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it! :-)
But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just
because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive
fot 98% of all us Brazilians
I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't
afford anything. Been there... I see your point. I think (and my thoughts on this are evolving with the help of this conversation) that the biggest problem I have is the younger folk not understanding or believing when/if these cheap Chinese instruments are inferior.
"Hahahaa, you're dumb, you spend thousands of dollars for an oscilloscope, but I got one for thirty bucks!!" They're all equivalent in the eyes of many of these people, it seems.
My thinking is that, whenever possible, we should be mindful of WHY people like us have respect for high-end equipment, and impart that knowledge to the younger generations, so they can appreciate them too.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
I also grew up in the UK and was at secondary school (age 11-16) in the early 1960s and had the same experience as Paul, because I went to a village college we also had 2 hours a week of what was known as 'Rural Science' added to the other practical subjects, we had just over half an acre of cultivated land, a small fruit orchard and a couple of large glasshouses where we got to put farming theory into practice (and took our share of the fruit and veg harvest home!). All practical subjects were taught with the view that we would likely be getting jobs that would need those skills for real too, so we got 'work experience' weeks from time to time where we were sent off to local companies for a week and worked on the shop floor. The result was mostly a whole bunch of very employable 16 year old kids leaving school with the basic skills and confidence to set us up for life.
Oh yes, my first soldering was done with a fire-heated iron too, Dad gave me a crystal set kit for my 8th birthday and we sat up building it that night, heating the iron on the kitchen coal fire. Strange, that must have been March 1957 and I still remember that night so clearly!
Adrian
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 19/03/2022 18:41, Paul Bicknell wrote: Hi Dave regarding good quality tools and how to use them
In the UK when I was at school we had a minimum of 1 and a half hours per week of Metalwork , Woodwork , Technical drawing (total 5 Hours minimum )
this all changed and a new subject called ICT relapsed it all with less than 2 hours a week by a teacher that was not able to do the subject
So we ended up with a generation that never learnt how to use any tools until they went to collage subsequently we have a generation between 33 to 40 that are dangerous with a tool
I also had to teach several electronic and mechanical graduates that had their degree how to solder
Personally I had a screw driver in my hand from the age of 5 and bought my first electric soldering iron with my 10 birthday money as I had difficulty soldering Jack plugs with an iron I had to worm up on the gas stove
And by the time I was 19 it was worn out and I replaced it with a Weller that is still good 40 years later ( several new parts )
I must admit it is difficult to convince someone 10 sets of plyers in my draw will cost ?600 to replace when they think they are worth ?30 and ?40 would be to expensive
Regards Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: 19 March 2022 15:54
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
On 3/19/22 01:55, Alexandre Souza wrote:
Hey, bad-mood-Dave! Well it's good to be known for something, at least. :-)
Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was
(still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools
in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro" I
understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first
weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it! :-)
But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just
because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive
fot 98% of all us Brazilians
I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't
afford anything. Been there... I see your point. I think (and my thoughts on this are evolving with the help of this conversation) that the biggest problem I have is the younger folk not understanding or believing when/if these cheap Chinese instruments are inferior.
"Hahahaa, you're dumb, you spend thousands of dollars for an oscilloscope, but I got one for thirty bucks!!" They're all equivalent in the eyes of many of these people, it seems.
My thinking is that, whenever possible, we should be mindful of WHY people like us have respect for high-end equipment, and impart that knowledge to the younger generations, so they can appreciate them too.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Years ago I used ammonium persulphate to etch
boards.
I had a hard time convincing local chemical distributor I needed
it.
Appears it is also rocket fuel oxidizer.
I used it in a bubble etch tank with a few drops of mercuric
chloride, IIRC.
The fumes rusted a lot of stuff in my garage and it dissolve a
spot of concrete leaving only the pebbles behind when a small
quantity was spilled and not noticed.
It turns blue when exhausted, does nor stain like ferric chloride
and was faster.
Glenn
On 3/19/2022 10:29 AM, Jeff Kruth via
groups.io wrote:
Hi Lothar!
Two questions: When you used Ammonium Persulphate, did
you have to add an activator (few drops of something) to
make it etch faster?? remember Kepro selling a small bottle
with their "kit" that have the "magic" activator. Not sure
if its needed.
?
Second: What is your eBay handle, sounds like you have
some good stuff.
?
Regards
Jeff Kruth
?
In a message dated 3/18/2022 8:48:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Lothar@... writes:
?
Actually eventually I switched to ammonia
persulphate , cheaper no smell and less stress with mom over
holes in shirts ?
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
< [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Harvey White via groups.io
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment]
Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
If you can get it, I'd suggest the CuCl method, about 4
parts Hydrogen peroxide (drugstore strength) and 1 part of
Hydrochloric (muriatic) acid.? It'll need air bubbling
through it as the hydrogen peroxide turns to water.
Lots cheaper.? Ferric chloride eventually turns up being
CuCl, anyway.
Harvey
On 3/18/2022 7:26 PM, Zentronics42@...
wrote:
> I still etch with ferric chloride here at the house.
But I do use an earth sciences Hot shaker table with a water
bath rather than food prep area. So at least some
improvement.
>
> Zen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Lothar baier
> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 6:55 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: BS, was Re:
[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet
Returns!
>
> Oh lord , I remember me and dad etching circuit boards
using ferric
> chloride solution on the kitchen stove
>> On Mar 18, 2022, at 17:22, Dave McGuire via
groups.io <mcguire= [email protected]>
wrote:
>>
>> On 3/18/22 18:00, Zentronics42@...
wrote:
>>>? ? Zen is one of my names I guess. Living in
the digital age you seem to collect things like names.
>>> I have gone by Zenwizard on line for going on
25 years now. For off line use I am an Eric, however there
are also some that know me as Adain (there is a LONG off
topic story there).
>>? Ah, sorta.? I've been living in that same digital
age, but never did the nickname thing.? We don't have rigid
rules here, but this is a mailing list of mostly
professional types, so we do prefer the use of given names.?
I'm by no means bossing you around on that, but just
consider it a light suggestion from a list moderator.
>>
>>? Either way, welcome!
>>
>>> I am honestly looking to push the lab in to the
RF space. But even now the gear is cost prohibitive to
acquire at a rapid pace. I have recently (with in the last
year) been able to acquire proper spectrum analyzers for the
lab. HP E4411B and HP 8596E.? I have my 10 Mhz reference
sorted this year as well. So lab building is going well but
it is slow. I am targeting some VNA and some microwave
equipment as well as precision DC and calibration standards.
I am in to the expensive toys it seems.
>>? RF is great fun, and a wonderful thing to sink
your teeth into.? But yes, it does get expensive.? The
"good/fast/cheap (pick any two)" rule applies here; amazing
deals can be had if you're patient, but personally I think
patience isn't all it's cracked up to be.? If we keep
waiting, by the time we're dead, we'll have great stuff...No
thanks!? But really good deals do come along from time to
time, if you're lucky.
>>
>>? Your E4411B and 8596E are a great start.? You'll
need some good signal sources too, and a good microwave
counter.? Next would probably be a power meter.? Fortunately
these are all pretty easy to come by, with the possible
exception of a sensor for the power meter.
>>
>>>? ? As for background it is extremely wide and
varied. But most of it has been electronics based, computer
based, or getting the two to talk to each other in some way.
>>>? ? I'll also be taking two students to their
first swap meet in a few months... their first one will be
the Dayton Hamvention. So we are going to start small?
>>? Hahaaa yes, trial by fire indeed. ;)? If their
minds aren't totally
>> blown by that, they might survive! B-)
>>
>>? I'm about 4.5hrs East of Dayton; I may have some
gear for you, but you'd need some car space.? That may be a
challenge after Dayton. ;)? I also run the Large Scale
Systems Museum (google it) which you might find interesting,
if it would be convenient for you to extend that Hamvention
road trip.
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave
>>
>> --
>> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
>> New Kensington, PA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn Little ARRL Technical Specialist QCWA LM 28417
Amateur Callsign: WB4UIV wb4uiv@... AMSAT LM 2178
QTH: Goose Creek, SC USA (EM92xx) USSVI, FRA, NRA-LM ARRL TAPR
"It is not the class of license that the Amateur holds but the class
of the Amateur that holds the license"
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Hi Dave regarding good quality tools and how to use them
In the UK when I was at school we had a minimum of 1 and a half hours per week of Metalwork , Woodwork , Technical drawing (total 5 Hours minimum )
this all changed and a new subject called ICT relapsed it all with less than 2 hours a week by a teacher that was not able to do the subject
So we ended up with a generation that never learnt how to use any tools until they went to collage subsequently we have a generation between 33 to 40 that are dangerous with a tool
I also had to teach several electronic and mechanical graduates that had their degree how to solder
Personally I had a screw driver in my hand from the age of 5 and bought my first electric soldering iron with my 10 birthday money as I had difficulty soldering Jack plugs with an iron I had to worm up on the gas stove
And by the time I was 19 it was worn out and I replaced it with a Weller that is still good 40 years later ( several new parts )
I must admit it is difficult to convince someone 10 sets of plyers in my draw will cost ?600 to replace when they think they are worth ?30 and ?40 would be to expensive
Regards Paul
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto: [email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: 19 March 2022 15:54 To: [email protected]Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns! On 3/19/22 01:55, Alexandre Souza wrote: Hey, bad-mood-Dave! Well it's good to be known for something, at least. :-) Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was
(still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools
in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro" I
understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first
weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it! :-) But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just
because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive
fot 98% of all us Brazilians
I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't
afford anything. Been there... I see your point. I think (and my thoughts on this are evolving with the help of this conversation) that the biggest problem I have is the younger folk not understanding or believing when/if these cheap Chinese instruments are inferior. "Hahahaa, you're dumb, you spend thousands of dollars for an oscilloscope, but I got one for thirty bucks!!" They're all equivalent in the eyes of many of these people, it seems. My thinking is that, whenever possible, we should be mindful of WHY people like us have respect for high-end equipment, and impart that knowledge to the younger generations, so they can appreciate them too. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Laminating the outlines would have the problem of placing them
exactly so.? You're dealing with (at least as small) as 4 mm space
between tracks and 4 mm tracks.? What many designers do for a 2
layer board is a ground (or VCC) pour on a layer, which often
fills in the blanks and reduces the waste copper.? The VCC plane
or ground plane (both partial), do add to the stability of the
design.? On a 4 layer board there is a dedicated ground plane,
possibly a dedicated VCC plane, and those definitely add to
stability.? Inner layers may or may not have ground pours, I
didn't on one board.? The top layer on a 4 layer board had a vcc
pour and the bottom layer may have had a ground pour.? Inner
layers may have 1/2 ounce copper rather than 1.
There are steps that can be taken.
I don't know if people try to recover or not the copper from the
etchant.? Possibly would be profitable in larger plants, possibly
electrolytic methods.? Don't know.
Harvey
On 3/19/2022 12:30 PM, greenboxmaven
via groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Was it possible to recycle the copper
removed by these etchants? Was it possible in mass manufacture
of circuit boards to laminate copper outlines of the crcuit
paths, when there was substantial empty space on the finished
board, so less would have to be etched away ?
??? Bruce Gentry, KA2IVY
On 3/19/22 10:29, Jeff Kruth via
groups.io wrote:
Hi Lothar!
Two questions: When you used Ammonium Persulphate,
did you have to add an activator (few drops of something)
to make it etch faster?? remember Kepro selling a small
bottle with their "kit" that have the "magic" activator.
Not sure if its needed.
?
Second: What is your eBay handle, sounds like you
have some good stuff.
?
Regards
Jeff Kruth
?
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View/Reply Online (#123960) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic
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Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Good to know!? Thanks, Ross.
Jim Ford
Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-------- Original message -------- From: si_emi_01 <wellington@...> Date: 3/19/22 12:46 AM (GMT-08:00) Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Agree with the FR-4 Comments. The Dielectric Constant (ER and ER') changes based on manufacturer and other properties. As is always said, a Dielectric Constant, isn't. FR-4 changes based on Frequency. The Standard was measured at NIST as a thick cube or block. That Standard is right around 4.5. At 1 GHz, it is around 4.05. So based on the base Frequency and edge rate (like 1 ns), of a digital signal, you need to consider that in your design. Also consider that your Stack-up thickness tolerance is generally +/-10%. That affects your target Impedance. It is caused by the heat/pressing/weave nesting (Resin vs. Glass), of creating the stack-up. Couple that with your Line Width tolerance plus over/under etch tolerances from vendor-to-vendor. That's why it is a good idea to have the vendor work with you when you have your design nearly completed. You may have to change your line widths or stack-up thicknesses. It varies from vendor-to-vendor too. Some will blow up the layer with the CAM Software and then shoot the layers reduced. Their tolerances vary. They generally use a TDR to measure Impedance on their PCB Coupons. They establish and control their processes this way. A Polar TDR and Tek TDR will give different values based on the launch and step rate. Make sure you trust it. The Impedance also varies based on where the Coupon is located on the panel (usually 18 x 22"). The pressing isn't always uniform across the panel. If you are designing very high-rate Digital Boards, you would look at other dielectrics and Weave Bias Routing options. FR-4 can be used for <2GHz Frequencies as Lothar recommends. Above that, aside from the change in Dielectric Constant, the Dielectric Losses (Loss Tangent), become prohibitive too. The Rogers 4003 and 4350 he recommends are good choices for GHz work. For more information you can check out IPC4103 Slash sheets for Duroid, PTFE Dielectrics. Ross Wellington -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Lothar baier Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 9:58 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns! With FR-4 you definatly have issues with ER lot variations this is why you use materials like rogers 4350B -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave McGuire via groups.io Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 9:22 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns! On 3/18/22 22:19, Lothar baier wrote: > If you do edge coupled microstrip filters or directional couplers than > the accuracy of the gaps is very important but another aspect that has > to be considered is the roughness of the edges ?? Yes.? There's a great deal of activity in building replacement boards and modules for instruments like ours (trying to bring this further on-topic), so if the results there are adequate, this does open up some possibilities.? One thing that causes trouble with the more affordable board houses is that sometimes they change substrate compositions, so the published dielectric constant isn't always something you can count on. ??????????? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Recycle my butt ?lol , when the etchant was Saturated it was dumped down the toilet?
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Show quoted text
On Mar 19, 2022, at 11:31, greenboxmaven via groups.io <ka2ivy@...> wrote:
?
Was it possible to recycle the copper removed by these etchants? Was it possible in mass manufacture of circuit boards to laminate copper outlines of the crcuit paths,
when there was substantial empty space on the finished board, so less would have to be etched away ?
??? Bruce Gentry, KA2IVY
On 3/19/22 10:29, Jeff Kruth via groups.io wrote:
Hi Lothar!
Two questions: When you used Ammonium Persulphate, did you have to add an activator (few drops of something) to make it etch faster?? remember Kepro selling a small bottle with
their "kit" that have the "magic" activator. Not sure if its needed.
?
Second: What is your eBay handle, sounds like you have some good stuff.
?
Regards
Jeff Kruth
?
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You receive all messages sent to this group.
View/Reply Online (#123960) |
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Unsubscribe [ka2ivy@...]
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Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Was it possible to recycle the copper
removed by these etchants? Was it possible in mass manufacture
of circuit boards to laminate copper outlines of the crcuit
paths, when
there was substantial empty space on the finished board,
so less would have to be etched away ?
??? Bruce Gentry, KA2IVY
On 3/19/22 10:29, Jeff Kruth via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
On 3/19/22 01:55, Alexandre Souza wrote: Hey, bad-mood-Dave! Well it's good to be known for something, at least. :-) Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was (still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro" I understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it! :-) But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive fot 98% of all us Brazilians
I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't afford anything. Been there... I see your point. I think (and my thoughts on this are evolving with the help of this conversation) that the biggest problem I have is the younger folk not understanding or believing when/if these cheap Chinese instruments are inferior. "Hahahaa, you're dumb, you spend thousands of dollars for an oscilloscope, but I got one for thirty bucks!!" They're all equivalent in the eyes of many of these people, it seems. My thinking is that, whenever possible, we should be mindful of WHY people like us have respect for high-end equipment, and impart that knowledge to the younger generations, so they can appreciate them too. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
No activator, just plain chemical but i used a fishtank heater to warm it up
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Show quoted text
On Mar 19, 2022, at 09:42, John Griessen via groups.io <john@...> wrote:
?
On 3/18/22 20:04, Zentronics42@... wrote:
I am thinking about switching to cupric chloride as in theory I should not have much of a waste product. That's right. If you get too much volume increase of your solution by using it, some can be neutralized and it precipitates copper oxide out. The remaining water is low copper and neutral, so it can go on the yard plants.
Yes, store the solution outdoors and use outdoors away from your favorite cars, tools, or anything else since it releases chlorine and HCl mist from bubbler operation.
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
On 3/18/22 20:04, Zentronics42@... wrote: I am thinking about switching to cupric chloride as in theory I should not have much of a waste product. That's right. If you get too much volume increase of your solution by using it, some can be neutralized and it precipitates copper oxide out. The remaining water is low copper and neutral, so it can go on the yard plants. Yes, store the solution outdoors and use outdoors away from your favorite cars, tools, or anything else since it releases chlorine and HCl mist from bubbler operation.
|
Patricio A. Greco
Paul Bicknell
Dave McGuire