Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
I also grew up in the UK and was at secondary school (age 11-16) in the early 1960s and had the same experience as Paul, because I went to a village college we also had 2 hours a week of what was known as 'Rural Science' added to the other practical subjects, we had just over half an acre of cultivated land, a small fruit orchard and a couple of large glasshouses where we got to put farming theory into practice (and took our share of the fruit and veg harvest home!). All practical subjects were taught with the view that we would likely be getting jobs that would need those skills for real too, so we got 'work experience' weeks from time to time where we were sent off to local companies for a week and worked on the shop floor. The result was mostly a whole bunch of very employable 16 year old kids leaving school with the basic skills and confidence to set us up for life.
Oh yes, my first soldering was done with a fire-heated iron too, Dad gave me a crystal set kit for my 8th birthday and we sat up building it that night, heating the iron on the kitchen coal fire. Strange, that must have been March 1957 and I still remember that night so clearly!
Adrian
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On 19/03/2022 18:41, Paul Bicknell wrote: Hi Dave regarding good quality tools and how to use them
In the UK when I was at school we had a minimum of 1 and a half hours per week of Metalwork , Woodwork , Technical drawing (total 5 Hours minimum )
this all changed and a new subject called ICT relapsed it all with less than 2 hours a week by a teacher that was not able to do the subject
So we ended up with a generation that never learnt how to use any tools until they went to collage subsequently we have a generation between 33 to 40 that are dangerous with a tool
I also had to teach several electronic and mechanical graduates that had their degree how to solder
Personally I had a screw driver in my hand from the age of 5 and bought my first electric soldering iron with my 10 birthday money as I had difficulty soldering Jack plugs with an iron I had to worm up on the gas stove
And by the time I was 19 it was worn out and I replaced it with a Weller that is still good 40 years later ( several new parts )
I must admit it is difficult to convince someone 10 sets of plyers in my draw will cost ?600 to replace when they think they are worth ?30 and ?40 would be to expensive
Regards Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: 19 March 2022 15:54
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
On 3/19/22 01:55, Alexandre Souza wrote:
Hey, bad-mood-Dave! Well it's good to be known for something, at least. :-)
Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was
(still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools
in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro" I
understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first
weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it! :-)
But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just
because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive
fot 98% of all us Brazilians
I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't
afford anything. Been there... I see your point. I think (and my thoughts on this are evolving with the help of this conversation) that the biggest problem I have is the younger folk not understanding or believing when/if these cheap Chinese instruments are inferior.
"Hahahaa, you're dumb, you spend thousands of dollars for an oscilloscope, but I got one for thirty bucks!!" They're all equivalent in the eyes of many of these people, it seems.
My thinking is that, whenever possible, we should be mindful of WHY people like us have respect for high-end equipment, and impart that knowledge to the younger generations, so they can appreciate them too.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Years ago I used ammonium persulphate to etch
boards.
I had a hard time convincing local chemical distributor I needed
it.
Appears it is also rocket fuel oxidizer.
I used it in a bubble etch tank with a few drops of mercuric
chloride, IIRC.
The fumes rusted a lot of stuff in my garage and it dissolve a
spot of concrete leaving only the pebbles behind when a small
quantity was spilled and not noticed.
It turns blue when exhausted, does nor stain like ferric chloride
and was faster.
Glenn
On 3/19/2022 10:29 AM, Jeff Kruth via
groups.io wrote:
Hi Lothar!
Two questions: When you used Ammonium Persulphate, did
you have to add an activator (few drops of something) to
make it etch faster?? remember Kepro selling a small bottle
with their "kit" that have the "magic" activator. Not sure
if its needed.
?
Second: What is your eBay handle, sounds like you have
some good stuff.
?
Regards
Jeff Kruth
?
In a message dated 3/18/2022 8:48:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Lothar@... writes:
?
Actually eventually I switched to ammonia
persulphate , cheaper no smell and less stress with mom over
holes in shirts ?
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
< [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Harvey White via groups.io
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment]
Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
If you can get it, I'd suggest the CuCl method, about 4
parts Hydrogen peroxide (drugstore strength) and 1 part of
Hydrochloric (muriatic) acid.? It'll need air bubbling
through it as the hydrogen peroxide turns to water.
Lots cheaper.? Ferric chloride eventually turns up being
CuCl, anyway.
Harvey
On 3/18/2022 7:26 PM, Zentronics42@...
wrote:
> I still etch with ferric chloride here at the house.
But I do use an earth sciences Hot shaker table with a water
bath rather than food prep area. So at least some
improvement.
>
> Zen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Lothar baier
> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 6:55 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: BS, was Re:
[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet
Returns!
>
> Oh lord , I remember me and dad etching circuit boards
using ferric
> chloride solution on the kitchen stove
>> On Mar 18, 2022, at 17:22, Dave McGuire via
groups.io <mcguire= [email protected]>
wrote:
>>
>> On 3/18/22 18:00, Zentronics42@...
wrote:
>>>? ? Zen is one of my names I guess. Living in
the digital age you seem to collect things like names.
>>> I have gone by Zenwizard on line for going on
25 years now. For off line use I am an Eric, however there
are also some that know me as Adain (there is a LONG off
topic story there).
>>? Ah, sorta.? I've been living in that same digital
age, but never did the nickname thing.? We don't have rigid
rules here, but this is a mailing list of mostly
professional types, so we do prefer the use of given names.?
I'm by no means bossing you around on that, but just
consider it a light suggestion from a list moderator.
>>
>>? Either way, welcome!
>>
>>> I am honestly looking to push the lab in to the
RF space. But even now the gear is cost prohibitive to
acquire at a rapid pace. I have recently (with in the last
year) been able to acquire proper spectrum analyzers for the
lab. HP E4411B and HP 8596E.? I have my 10 Mhz reference
sorted this year as well. So lab building is going well but
it is slow. I am targeting some VNA and some microwave
equipment as well as precision DC and calibration standards.
I am in to the expensive toys it seems.
>>? RF is great fun, and a wonderful thing to sink
your teeth into.? But yes, it does get expensive.? The
"good/fast/cheap (pick any two)" rule applies here; amazing
deals can be had if you're patient, but personally I think
patience isn't all it's cracked up to be.? If we keep
waiting, by the time we're dead, we'll have great stuff...No
thanks!? But really good deals do come along from time to
time, if you're lucky.
>>
>>? Your E4411B and 8596E are a great start.? You'll
need some good signal sources too, and a good microwave
counter.? Next would probably be a power meter.? Fortunately
these are all pretty easy to come by, with the possible
exception of a sensor for the power meter.
>>
>>>? ? As for background it is extremely wide and
varied. But most of it has been electronics based, computer
based, or getting the two to talk to each other in some way.
>>>? ? I'll also be taking two students to their
first swap meet in a few months... their first one will be
the Dayton Hamvention. So we are going to start small?
>>? Hahaaa yes, trial by fire indeed. ;)? If their
minds aren't totally
>> blown by that, they might survive! B-)
>>
>>? I'm about 4.5hrs East of Dayton; I may have some
gear for you, but you'd need some car space.? That may be a
challenge after Dayton. ;)? I also run the Large Scale
Systems Museum (google it) which you might find interesting,
if it would be convenient for you to extend that Hamvention
road trip.
>>
>>? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave
>>
>> --
>> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
>> New Kensington, PA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn Little ARRL Technical Specialist QCWA LM 28417
Amateur Callsign: WB4UIV wb4uiv@... AMSAT LM 2178
QTH: Goose Creek, SC USA (EM92xx) USSVI, FRA, NRA-LM ARRL TAPR
"It is not the class of license that the Amateur holds but the class
of the Amateur that holds the license"
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Hi Dave regarding good quality tools and how to use them
In the UK when I was at school we had a minimum of 1 and a half hours per week of Metalwork , Woodwork , Technical drawing (total 5 Hours minimum )
this all changed and a new subject called ICT relapsed it all with less than 2 hours a week by a teacher that was not able to do the subject
So we ended up with a generation that never learnt how to use any tools until they went to collage subsequently we have a generation between 33 to 40 that are dangerous with a tool
I also had to teach several electronic and mechanical graduates that had their degree how to solder
Personally I had a screw driver in my hand from the age of 5 and bought my first electric soldering iron with my 10 birthday money as I had difficulty soldering Jack plugs with an iron I had to worm up on the gas stove
And by the time I was 19 it was worn out and I replaced it with a Weller that is still good 40 years later ( several new parts )
I must admit it is difficult to convince someone 10 sets of plyers in my draw will cost ?600 to replace when they think they are worth ?30 and ?40 would be to expensive
Regards Paul
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto: [email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: 19 March 2022 15:54 To: [email protected]Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns! On 3/19/22 01:55, Alexandre Souza wrote: Hey, bad-mood-Dave! Well it's good to be known for something, at least. :-) Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was
(still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools
in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro" I
understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first
weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it! :-) But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just
because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive
fot 98% of all us Brazilians
I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't
afford anything. Been there... I see your point. I think (and my thoughts on this are evolving with the help of this conversation) that the biggest problem I have is the younger folk not understanding or believing when/if these cheap Chinese instruments are inferior. "Hahahaa, you're dumb, you spend thousands of dollars for an oscilloscope, but I got one for thirty bucks!!" They're all equivalent in the eyes of many of these people, it seems. My thinking is that, whenever possible, we should be mindful of WHY people like us have respect for high-end equipment, and impart that knowledge to the younger generations, so they can appreciate them too. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Laminating the outlines would have the problem of placing them
exactly so.? You're dealing with (at least as small) as 4 mm space
between tracks and 4 mm tracks.? What many designers do for a 2
layer board is a ground (or VCC) pour on a layer, which often
fills in the blanks and reduces the waste copper.? The VCC plane
or ground plane (both partial), do add to the stability of the
design.? On a 4 layer board there is a dedicated ground plane,
possibly a dedicated VCC plane, and those definitely add to
stability.? Inner layers may or may not have ground pours, I
didn't on one board.? The top layer on a 4 layer board had a vcc
pour and the bottom layer may have had a ground pour.? Inner
layers may have 1/2 ounce copper rather than 1.
There are steps that can be taken.
I don't know if people try to recover or not the copper from the
etchant.? Possibly would be profitable in larger plants, possibly
electrolytic methods.? Don't know.
Harvey
On 3/19/2022 12:30 PM, greenboxmaven
via groups.io wrote:
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Was it possible to recycle the copper
removed by these etchants? Was it possible in mass manufacture
of circuit boards to laminate copper outlines of the crcuit
paths, when there was substantial empty space on the finished
board, so less would have to be etched away ?
??? Bruce Gentry, KA2IVY
On 3/19/22 10:29, Jeff Kruth via
groups.io wrote:
Hi Lothar!
Two questions: When you used Ammonium Persulphate,
did you have to add an activator (few drops of something)
to make it etch faster?? remember Kepro selling a small
bottle with their "kit" that have the "magic" activator.
Not sure if its needed.
?
Second: What is your eBay handle, sounds like you
have some good stuff.
?
Regards
Jeff Kruth
?
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Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Good to know!? Thanks, Ross.
Jim Ford
Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
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-------- Original message -------- From: si_emi_01 <wellington@...> Date: 3/19/22 12:46 AM (GMT-08:00) Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Agree with the FR-4 Comments. The Dielectric Constant (ER and ER') changes based on manufacturer and other properties. As is always said, a Dielectric Constant, isn't. FR-4 changes based on Frequency. The Standard was measured at NIST as a thick cube or block. That Standard is right around 4.5. At 1 GHz, it is around 4.05. So based on the base Frequency and edge rate (like 1 ns), of a digital signal, you need to consider that in your design. Also consider that your Stack-up thickness tolerance is generally +/-10%. That affects your target Impedance. It is caused by the heat/pressing/weave nesting (Resin vs. Glass), of creating the stack-up. Couple that with your Line Width tolerance plus over/under etch tolerances from vendor-to-vendor. That's why it is a good idea to have the vendor work with you when you have your design nearly completed. You may have to change your line widths or stack-up thicknesses. It varies from vendor-to-vendor too. Some will blow up the layer with the CAM Software and then shoot the layers reduced. Their tolerances vary. They generally use a TDR to measure Impedance on their PCB Coupons. They establish and control their processes this way. A Polar TDR and Tek TDR will give different values based on the launch and step rate. Make sure you trust it. The Impedance also varies based on where the Coupon is located on the panel (usually 18 x 22"). The pressing isn't always uniform across the panel. If you are designing very high-rate Digital Boards, you would look at other dielectrics and Weave Bias Routing options. FR-4 can be used for <2GHz Frequencies as Lothar recommends. Above that, aside from the change in Dielectric Constant, the Dielectric Losses (Loss Tangent), become prohibitive too. The Rogers 4003 and 4350 he recommends are good choices for GHz work. For more information you can check out IPC4103 Slash sheets for Duroid, PTFE Dielectrics. Ross Wellington -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Lothar baier Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 9:58 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns! With FR-4 you definatly have issues with ER lot variations this is why you use materials like rogers 4350B -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave McGuire via groups.io Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 9:22 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns! On 3/18/22 22:19, Lothar baier wrote: > If you do edge coupled microstrip filters or directional couplers than > the accuracy of the gaps is very important but another aspect that has > to be considered is the roughness of the edges ?? Yes.? There's a great deal of activity in building replacement boards and modules for instruments like ours (trying to bring this further on-topic), so if the results there are adequate, this does open up some possibilities.? One thing that causes trouble with the more affordable board houses is that sometimes they change substrate compositions, so the published dielectric constant isn't always something you can count on. ??????????? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Recycle my butt ?lol , when the etchant was Saturated it was dumped down the toilet?
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On Mar 19, 2022, at 11:31, greenboxmaven via groups.io <ka2ivy@...> wrote:
?
Was it possible to recycle the copper removed by these etchants? Was it possible in mass manufacture of circuit boards to laminate copper outlines of the crcuit paths,
when there was substantial empty space on the finished board, so less would have to be etched away ?
??? Bruce Gentry, KA2IVY
On 3/19/22 10:29, Jeff Kruth via groups.io wrote:
Hi Lothar!
Two questions: When you used Ammonium Persulphate, did you have to add an activator (few drops of something) to make it etch faster?? remember Kepro selling a small bottle with
their "kit" that have the "magic" activator. Not sure if its needed.
?
Second: What is your eBay handle, sounds like you have some good stuff.
?
Regards
Jeff Kruth
?
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Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Was it possible to recycle the copper
removed by these etchants? Was it possible in mass manufacture
of circuit boards to laminate copper outlines of the crcuit
paths, when
there was substantial empty space on the finished board,
so less would have to be etched away ?
??? Bruce Gentry, KA2IVY
On 3/19/22 10:29, Jeff Kruth via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
On 3/19/22 01:55, Alexandre Souza wrote: Hey, bad-mood-Dave! Well it's good to be known for something, at least. :-) Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was (still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro" I understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it! :-) But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive fot 98% of all us Brazilians
I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't afford anything. Been there... I see your point. I think (and my thoughts on this are evolving with the help of this conversation) that the biggest problem I have is the younger folk not understanding or believing when/if these cheap Chinese instruments are inferior. "Hahahaa, you're dumb, you spend thousands of dollars for an oscilloscope, but I got one for thirty bucks!!" They're all equivalent in the eyes of many of these people, it seems. My thinking is that, whenever possible, we should be mindful of WHY people like us have respect for high-end equipment, and impart that knowledge to the younger generations, so they can appreciate them too. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
No activator, just plain chemical but i used a fishtank heater to warm it up
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On Mar 19, 2022, at 09:42, John Griessen via groups.io <john@...> wrote:
?
On 3/18/22 20:04, Zentronics42@... wrote:
I am thinking about switching to cupric chloride as in theory I should not have much of a waste product. That's right. If you get too much volume increase of your solution by using it, some can be neutralized and it precipitates copper oxide out. The remaining water is low copper and neutral, so it can go on the yard plants.
Yes, store the solution outdoors and use outdoors away from your favorite cars, tools, or anything else since it releases chlorine and HCl mist from bubbler operation.
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
On 3/18/22 20:04, Zentronics42@... wrote: I am thinking about switching to cupric chloride as in theory I should not have much of a waste product. That's right. If you get too much volume increase of your solution by using it, some can be neutralized and it precipitates copper oxide out. The remaining water is low copper and neutral, so it can go on the yard plants. Yes, store the solution outdoors and use outdoors away from your favorite cars, tools, or anything else since it releases chlorine and HCl mist from bubbler operation.
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Hi Lothar!
Two questions: When you used Ammonium Persulphate, did you have to add an activator (few drops of something) to make it etch faster?? remember Kepro selling a small bottle with their "kit" that have the "magic" activator. Not sure if its needed.
?
Second: What is your eBay handle, sounds like you have some good stuff.
?
Regards
Jeff Kruth
?
In a message dated 3/18/2022 8:48:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, Lothar@... writes:
?
Actually eventually I switched to ammonia persulphate , cheaper no smell and less stress with mom over holes in shirts ?
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Harvey White via groups.io Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:29 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns! If you can get it, I'd suggest the CuCl method, about 4 parts Hydrogen peroxide (drugstore strength) and 1 part of Hydrochloric (muriatic) acid.? It'll need air bubbling through it as the hydrogen peroxide turns to water. Lots cheaper.? Ferric chloride eventually turns up being CuCl, anyway. Harvey On 3/18/2022 7:26 PM, Zentronics42@... wrote: > I still etch with ferric chloride here at the house. But I do use an earth sciences Hot shaker table with a water bath rather than food prep area. So at least some improvement. > > Zen > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Lothar baier > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 6:55 PM > To: [email protected]> Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns! > > Oh lord , I remember me and dad etching circuit boards using ferric > chloride solution on the kitchen stove >> On Mar 18, 2022, at 17:22, Dave McGuire via groups.io <mcguire= [email protected]> wrote: >> >> On 3/18/22 18:00, Zentronics42@... wrote: >>>? ? Zen is one of my names I guess. Living in the digital age you seem to collect things like names. >>> I have gone by Zenwizard on line for going on 25 years now. For off line use I am an Eric, however there are also some that know me as Adain (there is a LONG off topic story there). >>? Ah, sorta.? I've been living in that same digital age, but never did the nickname thing.? We don't have rigid rules here, but this is a mailing list of mostly professional types, so we do prefer the use of given names.? I'm by no means bossing you around on that, but just consider it a light suggestion from a list moderator. >> >>? Either way, welcome! >> >>> I am honestly looking to push the lab in to the RF space. But even now the gear is cost prohibitive to acquire at a rapid pace. I have recently (with in the last year) been able to acquire proper spectrum analyzers for the lab. HP E4411B and HP 8596E.? I have my 10 Mhz reference sorted this year as well. So lab building is going well but it is slow. I am targeting some VNA and some microwave equipment as well as precision DC and calibration standards. I am in to the expensive toys it seems. >>? RF is great fun, and a wonderful thing to sink your teeth into.? But yes, it does get expensive.? The "good/fast/cheap (pick any two)" rule applies here; amazing deals can be had if you're patient, but personally I think patience isn't all it's cracked up to be.? If we keep waiting, by the time we're dead, we'll have great stuff...No thanks!? But really good deals do come along from time to time, if you're lucky. >> >>? Your E4411B and 8596E are a great start.? You'll need some good signal sources too, and a good microwave counter.? Next would probably be a power meter.? Fortunately these are all pretty easy to come by, with the possible exception of a sensor for the power meter. >> >>>? ? As for background it is extremely wide and varied. But most of it has been electronics based, computer based, or getting the two to talk to each other in some way. >>>? ? I'll also be taking two students to their first swap meet in a few months... their first one will be the Dayton Hamvention. So we are going to start small? >>? Hahaaa yes, trial by fire indeed. ;)? If their minds aren't totally >> blown by that, they might survive! B-) >> >>? I'm about 4.5hrs East of Dayton; I may have some gear for you, but you'd need some car space.? That may be a challenge after Dayton. ;)? I also run the Large Scale Systems Museum (google it) which you might find interesting, if it would be convenient for you to extend that Hamvention road trip. >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
And store it outside if at all possible, and not on concrete.? It outgasses and will rust iron or steel.
Harvey
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On 3/19/2022 5:18 AM, Wilko Bulte wrote: +1 for CuCl etching. Do use a wel ventilated area!
Wilko
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Yes, and no.
With an insulating resist, it will etch the copper away as long
as there is active etchant in the tank.
With a solder resist, the under cut is prevented by the action
of the tin/lead. Sort of like how zinc protects the steel around
it from rusting in the galvanize process.
Given enough time in the tank, all active metals will disappear
into solution.
-Chuck Harris
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On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 01:14:06 -0400 Zentronics42@... wrote: Time is also a problem to long in the tank is a guaranteed over etch.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Chuck Harris
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 11:57 PM To:
[email protected] Subject: Re: BS, was Re:
[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Whether or not a board under etches traces, or over etches traces is
entirely dependent on the resist used.
Insulating resists don't create any fields in the tank, so they tend
to over etch the traces: \^^^^^^^^/ .
Metallic resists (gold, solder) do create electric fields that
electrolytically deflect the etching action away from the resist, so
they tend to under etch the traces: /^^^^^^^^^\ .
(Or is it the other way around? It has been so long ago.)
-Chuck Harris
On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 00:52:13 +0000 "Lothar baier"
<Lothar@...> wrote:
Eventually dad bought a etch tank from isel , it used a different
cchemical (ammonia persulphate ) and the agitation was done by the
means of air bubbles generated by a airpump ! The problem with
ferric chloride was that while it worked great for most boards dad
did I had issues with under etching on my microwave boards
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Zentronics42
via groups.io Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 6:27 PM To:
[email protected] Subject: Re: BS, was Re:
[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet
Returns!
I still etch with ferric chloride here at the house. But I do use
an earth sciences Hot shaker table with a water bath rather than
food prep area. So at least some improvement.
Zen
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Lothar baier
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 6:55 PM To:
[email protected] Subject: Re: BS, was Re:
[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet
Returns!
Oh lord , I remember me and dad etching circuit boards using ferric
chloride solution on the kitchen stove
On Mar 18, 2022, at 17:22, Dave McGuire via groups.io
<mcguire@...> wrote:
?On 3/18/22 18:00, Zentronics42@... wrote:
Zen is one of my names I guess. Living in the digital age you
seem to collect things like names. I have gone by Zenwizard on
line for going on 25 years now. For off line use I am an Eric,
however there are also some that know me as Adain (there is a
LONG off topic story there). Ah, sorta. I've been living in that same digital age, but never
did the nickname thing. We don't have rigid rules here, but this
is a mailing list of mostly professional types, so we do prefer
the use of given names. I'm by no means bossing you around on
that, but just consider it a light suggestion from a list
moderator.
Either way, welcome!
I am honestly looking to push the lab in to the RF space. But
even now the gear is cost prohibitive to acquire at a rapid
pace. I have recently (with in the last year) been able to
acquire proper spectrum analyzers for the lab. HP E4411B and HP
8596E. I have my 10 Mhz reference sorted this year as well. So
lab building is going well but it is slow. I am targeting some
VNA and some microwave equipment as well as precision DC and
calibration standards. I am in to the expensive toys it seems. RF is great fun, and a wonderful thing to sink your teeth into.
But yes, it does get expensive. The "good/fast/cheap (pick any
two)" rule applies here; amazing deals can be had if you're
patient, but personally I think patience isn't all it's cracked
up to be. If we keep waiting, by the time we're dead, we'll have
great stuff...No thanks! But really good deals do come along
from time to time, if you're lucky.
Your E4411B and 8596E are a great start. You'll need some good
signal sources too, and a good microwave counter. Next would
probably be a power meter. Fortunately these are all pretty easy
to come by, with the possible exception of a sensor for the power
meter.
As for background it is extremely wide and varied. But most
of it has been electronics based, computer based, or getting the
two to talk to each other in some way. I'll also be taking two
students to their first swap meet in a few months... their first
one will be the Dayton Hamvention. So we are going to start
small? Hahaaa yes, trial by fire indeed. ;) If their minds aren't
totally blown by that, they might survive! B-)
I'm about 4.5hrs East of Dayton; I may have some gear for you,
but you'd need some car space. That may be a challenge after
Dayton. ;) I also run the Large Scale Systems Museum (google it)
which you might find interesting, if it would be convenient for
you to extend that Hamvention road trip.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
|
Re: Agilent 3458A Troubleshooting
Thanks everyone for the replies and for all the favourable comments about the 3458A. ? I forgot to mention that I have checked the power supply voltages and they are all OK. ? If I can¡¯t make any headway from members of this group, I will certainly try eevblog next. ? ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of tmillermdems
Sent: Saturday, 19 March 2022 2:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Agilent 3458A Troubleshooting? You can get the clip from Artekmedia. The first step is always to check all the low voltage power supply voltages. The calibration on the 3458a just needs a precision 10 volt reference and an accurate 10 k resistor. It is a wondeful instrument but repair and cal Keysight is a bit painful. It is still in production. Regards and good luck. ? On 3/18/2022 10:30 PM, Labguy wrote: I am trying to restore an HP3458A DVM and I need a little help.
I acquired this unit on ePay some time ago and I finally found some time to check it out. The outside and inside are both neat and clean. The build date is 1988, but someone has maintained over the years, because it has the latest firmware ROMs fitted (Rev 9). The Dallas NV RAMs are 2012, so they are nearing end of life. It is fitted with Option 002? Improved DC reference stability 4 ppm/year(!). The Cal sticker says it was last calibrated in 2013.
A visual check of the PCBs revealed nothing obvious, so after setting the mains switch to 230V I decided to power it up. I was greeted with a sizzle and an acrid smell. I have been there before with other old test gear - the Schaffner mains filter kacked itself. So I ordered a new one and replaced it.
When I powered the unit on again, I was greeted with a short BEEP and the first rectangular block of the green electroluminescent display flashes ON and OFF. That's as far as it gets. I have searched the Agilent manuals, all the info I could find on the internet and watched some excellent Youtube clips on repairing and calibrating 3458A's. I cannot find any troubleshooting reference for a flashing single character block on the display.
I am thinking there may be something wrong with the firmware code in one of the EPROMs that is causing it to hang while booting. I have an EPROM reader/burner, but I am reluctant to go there until I am sure I have to. I would be most grateful for any advice anyone may care to offer.
Cheers,
George
?
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Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
+1 for CuCl etching. Do use a wel ventilated area!
Wilko
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Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
The best PCB films I ever managed to get were done by a friend who was into the offset printing business. They had film imagers at the time which could convert a CAD file into 4800dpi polyesterbase graphical film. "Flawless" edges, within reason.
2nd best I did myself using a surplus graphical camera from the same printing branch. Agfa Copyproof film, I still remember. All this kind of equipment is long since obsolete.
Wilko
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Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Agree with the FR-4 Comments. The Dielectric Constant (ER and ER') changes based on manufacturer and other properties.
As is always said, a Dielectric Constant, isn't. FR-4 changes based on Frequency. The Standard was measured at NIST as a thick cube or block. That Standard is right around 4.5. At 1 GHz, it is around 4.05. So based on the base Frequency and edge rate (like 1 ns), of a digital signal, you need to consider that in your design.
Also consider that your Stack-up thickness tolerance is generally +/-10%. That affects your target Impedance. It is caused by the heat/pressing/weave nesting (Resin vs. Glass), of creating the stack-up. Couple that with your Line Width tolerance plus over/under etch tolerances from vendor-to-vendor. That's why it is a good idea to have the vendor work with you when you have your design nearly completed. You may have to change your line widths or stack-up thicknesses. It varies from vendor-to-vendor too. Some will blow up the layer with the CAM Software and then shoot the layers reduced. Their tolerances vary.
They generally use a TDR to measure Impedance on their PCB Coupons. They establish and control their processes this way. A Polar TDR and Tek TDR will give different values based on the launch and step rate. Make sure you trust it. The Impedance also varies based on where the Coupon is located on the panel (usually 18 x 22"). The pressing isn't always uniform across the panel.
If you are designing very high-rate Digital Boards, you would look at other dielectrics and Weave Bias Routing options.
FR-4 can be used for <2GHz Frequencies as Lothar recommends. Above that, aside from the change in Dielectric Constant, the Dielectric Losses (Loss Tangent), become prohibitive too. The Rogers 4003 and 4350 he recommends are good choices for GHz work. For more information you can check out IPC4103 Slash sheets for Duroid, PTFE Dielectrics.
Ross Wellington
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Lothar baier Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 9:58 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns! With FR-4 you definatly have issues with ER lot variations this is why you use materials like rogers 4350B -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave McGuire via groups.io Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 9:22 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns! On 3/18/22 22:19, Lothar baier wrote: If you do edge coupled microstrip filters or directional couplers than
the accuracy of the gaps is very important but another aspect that has
to be considered is the roughness of the edges Yes. There's a great deal of activity in building replacement boards and modules for instruments like ours (trying to bring this further on-topic), so if the results there are adequate, this does open up some possibilities. One thing that causes trouble with the more affordable board houses is that sometimes they change substrate compositions, so the published dielectric constant isn't always something you can count on. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
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FYI: Added HPBASIC Documentation from TAMS to VintHPcom group
I'm including this notification here, since this group also has many users of HPBASIC. I just added the 1999 Version of the TAMS HPBASIC Documentation CD contents to the files section in the VintHPcom group. /g/VintHPcom/files/HP%20RMB%20Basic/Documentation/HPBASIC%20Documentation%20from%20TAMSTAMS has generously given permission for personal use/reference of this documentation, for which I am specified as the grantee. The documentation is in HTML format and is intended for use only on individual personal systems, NOT to be placed onto a Web server for general public viewing. There probably are newer versions of this documentation (TAMS 2047K or 98616K-0100), if so please let me know and if possible share it with me so that I can include here in groups.io.
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Re: Agilent 3458A Troubleshooting
Hi
Congrats
Try a look at eevblog---they have done alot of work with HP
3458.
Regards
Hardy
?
?
I am trying to restore an HP3458A DVM and I need a little
help.
I acquired this unit on ePay some time ago and I finally found some time to
check it out. The outside and inside are both neat and clean. The build date is
1988, but someone has maintained over the years, because it has the latest
firmware ROMs fitted (Rev 9). The Dallas NV RAMs are 2012, so they are nearing
end of life. It is fitted with Option 002? Improved DC reference stability
4 ppm/year(!). The Cal sticker says it was last calibrated in 2013.
A visual check of the PCBs revealed nothing obvious, so after setting the mains
switch to 230V I decided to power it up. I was greeted with a sizzle and an
acrid smell. I have been there before with other old test gear - the Schaffner
mains filter kacked itself. So I ordered a new one and replaced it.
When I powered the unit on again, I was greeted with a short BEEP and the first
rectangular block of the green electroluminescent display flashes ON and OFF.
That's as far as it gets. I have searched the Agilent manuals, all the info I
could find on the internet and watched some excellent Youtube clips on
repairing and calibrating 3458A's. I cannot find any troubleshooting reference
for a flashing single character block on the display.
I am thinking there may be something wrong with the firmware code in one of the
EPROMs that is causing it to hang while booting. I have an EPROM reader/burner,
but I am reluctant to go there until I am sure I have to. I would be most
grateful for any advice anyone may care to offer.
Cheers,
George
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Hey, bad-mood-Dave!
Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was (still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro" I understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it!?
But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive fot 98% of all us Brazilians
I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't afford anything. Been there...
73 de alexandre pu2sex Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em qui, 17 de mar de 2022 22:28, Dave McGuire < mcguire@...> escreveu:
On 3/17/22 21:16, Lothar baier wrote:
> Nowadays things are different , good luck trying to get kids interested
> in electronics or ham radio they rather spend time on social media ,
? ?Wrong.? Electronics as a hobby is far, far larger than it has ever
been an ANY time in the past.? You're apparently not looking in the
right places.? It is DIFFERENT now, and that's ok.? Kids aren't winding
coils on Quaker Oats cans and screwing Fahnestock clips down to pieces
of wood (well, some are, but not as many as there were in the 1950s),
but plenty of young people are "doing electronics", and they're doing it
just fine.
? ?Further, amateur radio is alive and well.? I suggest that you look up
the statistics on issuance of licenses.
? ?It's very common for older people to say things like this, all the
time, all over the place.? I hear old farts complaining at each other at
hamfest "this hobby's DYIN'!", over and over.? They've not looked at the
licensing statistics either.
? ?I expect that the same goes for our topic of discussion here, test
equipment.? Though too many of these kids don't recognize high-quality
test equipment when they see it, with the "nano" "oscilloscopes" and
such flooding the market for a few tens of dollars.? It's up to us to
EDUCATE them and help them understand.
? ?Not sit on a mailing list spouting "woe is me, everything I love is
disappearing" when, in reality, it really isn't.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave, getting into a very bad mood
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
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Paul Bicknell
Dave McGuire
rmb_guru
Alexandre Souza