Re: Agilent 3458A Troubleshooting
Thanks everyone for the replies and for all the favourable comments about the 3458A. ? I forgot to mention that I have checked the power supply voltages and they are all OK. ? If I can¡¯t make any headway from members of this group, I will certainly try eevblog next. ? ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of tmillermdems
Sent: Saturday, 19 March 2022 2:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Agilent 3458A Troubleshooting? You can get the clip from Artekmedia. The first step is always to check all the low voltage power supply voltages. The calibration on the 3458a just needs a precision 10 volt reference and an accurate 10 k resistor. It is a wondeful instrument but repair and cal Keysight is a bit painful. It is still in production. Regards and good luck. ? On 3/18/2022 10:30 PM, Labguy wrote: I am trying to restore an HP3458A DVM and I need a little help.
I acquired this unit on ePay some time ago and I finally found some time to check it out. The outside and inside are both neat and clean. The build date is 1988, but someone has maintained over the years, because it has the latest firmware ROMs fitted (Rev 9). The Dallas NV RAMs are 2012, so they are nearing end of life. It is fitted with Option 002? Improved DC reference stability 4 ppm/year(!). The Cal sticker says it was last calibrated in 2013.
A visual check of the PCBs revealed nothing obvious, so after setting the mains switch to 230V I decided to power it up. I was greeted with a sizzle and an acrid smell. I have been there before with other old test gear - the Schaffner mains filter kacked itself. So I ordered a new one and replaced it.
When I powered the unit on again, I was greeted with a short BEEP and the first rectangular block of the green electroluminescent display flashes ON and OFF. That's as far as it gets. I have searched the Agilent manuals, all the info I could find on the internet and watched some excellent Youtube clips on repairing and calibrating 3458A's. I cannot find any troubleshooting reference for a flashing single character block on the display.
I am thinking there may be something wrong with the firmware code in one of the EPROMs that is causing it to hang while booting. I have an EPROM reader/burner, but I am reluctant to go there until I am sure I have to. I would be most grateful for any advice anyone may care to offer.
Cheers,
George
?
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Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
+1 for CuCl etching. Do use a wel ventilated area!
Wilko
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Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
The best PCB films I ever managed to get were done by a friend who was into the offset printing business. They had film imagers at the time which could convert a CAD file into 4800dpi polyesterbase graphical film. "Flawless" edges, within reason.
2nd best I did myself using a surplus graphical camera from the same printing branch. Agfa Copyproof film, I still remember. All this kind of equipment is long since obsolete.
Wilko
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Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Agree with the FR-4 Comments. The Dielectric Constant (ER and ER') changes based on manufacturer and other properties.
As is always said, a Dielectric Constant, isn't. FR-4 changes based on Frequency. The Standard was measured at NIST as a thick cube or block. That Standard is right around 4.5. At 1 GHz, it is around 4.05. So based on the base Frequency and edge rate (like 1 ns), of a digital signal, you need to consider that in your design.
Also consider that your Stack-up thickness tolerance is generally +/-10%. That affects your target Impedance. It is caused by the heat/pressing/weave nesting (Resin vs. Glass), of creating the stack-up. Couple that with your Line Width tolerance plus over/under etch tolerances from vendor-to-vendor. That's why it is a good idea to have the vendor work with you when you have your design nearly completed. You may have to change your line widths or stack-up thicknesses. It varies from vendor-to-vendor too. Some will blow up the layer with the CAM Software and then shoot the layers reduced. Their tolerances vary.
They generally use a TDR to measure Impedance on their PCB Coupons. They establish and control their processes this way. A Polar TDR and Tek TDR will give different values based on the launch and step rate. Make sure you trust it. The Impedance also varies based on where the Coupon is located on the panel (usually 18 x 22"). The pressing isn't always uniform across the panel.
If you are designing very high-rate Digital Boards, you would look at other dielectrics and Weave Bias Routing options.
FR-4 can be used for <2GHz Frequencies as Lothar recommends. Above that, aside from the change in Dielectric Constant, the Dielectric Losses (Loss Tangent), become prohibitive too. The Rogers 4003 and 4350 he recommends are good choices for GHz work. For more information you can check out IPC4103 Slash sheets for Duroid, PTFE Dielectrics.
Ross Wellington
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Lothar baier Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 9:58 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns! With FR-4 you definatly have issues with ER lot variations this is why you use materials like rogers 4350B -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave McGuire via groups.io Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 9:22 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns! On 3/18/22 22:19, Lothar baier wrote: If you do edge coupled microstrip filters or directional couplers than
the accuracy of the gaps is very important but another aspect that has
to be considered is the roughness of the edges Yes. There's a great deal of activity in building replacement boards and modules for instruments like ours (trying to bring this further on-topic), so if the results there are adequate, this does open up some possibilities. One thing that causes trouble with the more affordable board houses is that sometimes they change substrate compositions, so the published dielectric constant isn't always something you can count on. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
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FYI: Added HPBASIC Documentation from TAMS to VintHPcom group
I'm including this notification here, since this group also has many users of HPBASIC. I just added the 1999 Version of the TAMS HPBASIC Documentation CD contents to the files section in the VintHPcom group. /g/VintHPcom/files/HP%20RMB%20Basic/Documentation/HPBASIC%20Documentation%20from%20TAMSTAMS has generously given permission for personal use/reference of this documentation, for which I am specified as the grantee. The documentation is in HTML format and is intended for use only on individual personal systems, NOT to be placed onto a Web server for general public viewing. There probably are newer versions of this documentation (TAMS 2047K or 98616K-0100), if so please let me know and if possible share it with me so that I can include here in groups.io.
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Re: Agilent 3458A Troubleshooting
Hi
Congrats
Try a look at eevblog---they have done alot of work with HP
3458.
Regards
Hardy
?
?
I am trying to restore an HP3458A DVM and I need a little
help.
I acquired this unit on ePay some time ago and I finally found some time to
check it out. The outside and inside are both neat and clean. The build date is
1988, but someone has maintained over the years, because it has the latest
firmware ROMs fitted (Rev 9). The Dallas NV RAMs are 2012, so they are nearing
end of life. It is fitted with Option 002? Improved DC reference stability
4 ppm/year(!). The Cal sticker says it was last calibrated in 2013.
A visual check of the PCBs revealed nothing obvious, so after setting the mains
switch to 230V I decided to power it up. I was greeted with a sizzle and an
acrid smell. I have been there before with other old test gear - the Schaffner
mains filter kacked itself. So I ordered a new one and replaced it.
When I powered the unit on again, I was greeted with a short BEEP and the first
rectangular block of the green electroluminescent display flashes ON and OFF.
That's as far as it gets. I have searched the Agilent manuals, all the info I
could find on the internet and watched some excellent Youtube clips on
repairing and calibrating 3458A's. I cannot find any troubleshooting reference
for a flashing single character block on the display.
I am thinking there may be something wrong with the firmware code in one of the
EPROMs that is causing it to hang while booting. I have an EPROM reader/burner,
but I am reluctant to go there until I am sure I have to. I would be most
grateful for any advice anyone may care to offer.
Cheers,
George
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Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Hey, bad-mood-Dave!
Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was (still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro" I understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it!?
But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive fot 98% of all us Brazilians
I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't afford anything. Been there...
73 de alexandre pu2sex Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em qui, 17 de mar de 2022 22:28, Dave McGuire < mcguire@...> escreveu:
On 3/17/22 21:16, Lothar baier wrote:
> Nowadays things are different , good luck trying to get kids interested
> in electronics or ham radio they rather spend time on social media ,
? ?Wrong.? Electronics as a hobby is far, far larger than it has ever
been an ANY time in the past.? You're apparently not looking in the
right places.? It is DIFFERENT now, and that's ok.? Kids aren't winding
coils on Quaker Oats cans and screwing Fahnestock clips down to pieces
of wood (well, some are, but not as many as there were in the 1950s),
but plenty of young people are "doing electronics", and they're doing it
just fine.
? ?Further, amateur radio is alive and well.? I suggest that you look up
the statistics on issuance of licenses.
? ?It's very common for older people to say things like this, all the
time, all over the place.? I hear old farts complaining at each other at
hamfest "this hobby's DYIN'!", over and over.? They've not looked at the
licensing statistics either.
? ?I expect that the same goes for our topic of discussion here, test
equipment.? Though too many of these kids don't recognize high-quality
test equipment when they see it, with the "nano" "oscilloscopes" and
such flooding the market for a few tens of dollars.? It's up to us to
EDUCATE them and help them understand.
? ?Not sit on a mailing list spouting "woe is me, everything I love is
disappearing" when, in reality, it really isn't.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave, getting into a very bad mood
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
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Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
I think I might still have one or two.? Of course they are perfectly safe unless you mistreat them, and that applies to so many things.? I'm always on the lookout for Hg in old thermostats, etc.? Both to keep it out of the landfill, and to add to my collection.? I'm glad I grew up when I did; I'd hate to be a kid these days when everything is so "safe"!? ?
-Dave ? It has been strange to watch the pendulum swing over the years in that respect. I have known a time when we still had silver thermometers. ? Zen
From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Radu Bogdan Dicher Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2022 12:10 AM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns! ? Dave, Eric! (as I've known you as Zen over emails), Agewise, I'm probably right between you two, though?I'll wager far closer to Eric than Dave. Likely at least the same generation. I've been doing tubes for a good bit over 15 years, and repeatedly getting to taste the 450V of my amps' B+ hasn't ever deterred me. I started with electronics at about 7, and no one watched me much if at all at the club house when I was etching my boards with acid.? That said, I do want to suggest a certain amount of reserve with how we feel about the dangers of industry from certain times. I grew up in the most polluted place in Europe in the '80s (to substantiate, this orange acid rain was coming down most evenings around 6:30PM, so no one would ever be out for a couple of hours around that time, particularly in the fall, due to factory schedule of heavy chemicals waste release through unfiltered tall towers and atmospheric?conditions on this riverbed valley, and hanging clothes to dry was a lottery in terms of whether you'd be picking them black when dry due to other chemical agents being released in the air at other times, and for kms around this factory, up and down that same valley, the landscape was factually lunar as there was no growth on the bare, red, soil) and I can tell you living?with heavy metals around you, and inside you, does have effects on your body (and probably mind). I am saying this based upon my experience, and growth as a young boy. I am very careful with my kid around my bench.? Now, all this said, I want to make sure I thank you, Dave, for encouraging me on a certain project a while back (the younger hobbyist tackling a b..ch of a problem). I can't overstate how important this is, for folks from newbies to maybe some of the veterans. Some of these projects are not easy - if they were, no one would ask for help, and this forum would probably have little reason for being. I don't think we tend to have enough regard for encouraging the OP (sweating and swearing at their bench over a perplexing issue, and probably hating their project a bit at the point of asking for input), and making them feel as part of a community. THIS IS HUGE. I almost never capitalize, but here it's called for, and I am.? I am stating this to point out Dave's points, demeanor, and moderation on this forum. Fantastic job at this, Dave.? ? Definitely true for garden-variety FR-4 board material.? For serious microwave work, say >6GHz, you'd want a more stable material, like those made by Roger's, Isola, etc. Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device -------- Original message -------- Date: 3/18/22 7:22 PM (GMT-08:00) Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns! On 3/18/22 22:19, Lothar baier wrote:
> If you do edge coupled microstrip filters or directional couplers than the accuracy of the gaps is very important but another aspect that has to be considered is the roughness of the edges
?? Yes.? There's a great deal of activity in building replacement boards
and modules for instruments like ours (trying to bring this further
on-topic), so if the results there are adequate, this does open up some
possibilities.? One thing that causes trouble with the more affordable
board houses is that sometimes they change substrate compositions, so
the published dielectric constant isn't always something you can count on.
??????????? -Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Time is also a problem to long in the tank is a guaranteed over etch.
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Chuck Harris Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 11:57 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns! Whether or not a board under etches traces, or over etches traces is entirely dependent on the resist used. Insulating resists don't create any fields in the tank, so they tend to over etch the traces: \^^^^^^^^/ . Metallic resists (gold, solder) do create electric fields that electrolytically deflect the etching action away from the resist, so they tend to under etch the traces: /^^^^^^^^^\ . (Or is it the other way around? It has been so long ago.) -Chuck Harris On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 00:52:13 +0000 "Lothar baier" <Lothar@...> wrote: Eventually dad bought a etch tank from isel , it used a different
cchemical (ammonia persulphate ) and the agitation was done by the
means of air bubbles generated by a airpump ! The problem with ferric
chloride was that while it worked great for most boards dad did I had
issues with under etching on my microwave boards
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Zentronics42
via groups.io Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 6:27 PM To:
[email protected] Subject: Re: BS, was Re:
[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
I still etch with ferric chloride here at the house. But I do use an
earth sciences Hot shaker table with a water bath rather than food
prep area. So at least some improvement.
Zen
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Lothar baier
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 6:55 PM To:
[email protected] Subject: Re: BS, was Re:
[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Oh lord , I remember me and dad etching circuit boards using ferric
chloride solution on the kitchen stove
On Mar 18, 2022, at 17:22, Dave McGuire via groups.io
<mcguire@...> wrote:
?On 3/18/22 18:00, Zentronics42@... wrote:
Zen is one of my names I guess. Living in the digital age you
seem to collect things like names. I have gone by Zenwizard on line
for going on 25 years now. For off line use I am an Eric, however
there are also some that know me as Adain (there is a LONG off
topic story there). Ah, sorta. I've been living in that same digital age, but never
did the nickname thing. We don't have rigid rules here, but this is
a mailing list of mostly professional types, so we do prefer the use
of given names. I'm by no means bossing you around on that, but
just consider it a light suggestion from a list moderator.
Either way, welcome!
I am honestly looking to push the lab in to the RF space. But even
now the gear is cost prohibitive to acquire at a rapid pace. I have
recently (with in the last year) been able to acquire proper
spectrum analyzers for the lab. HP E4411B and HP 8596E. I have my
10 Mhz reference sorted this year as well. So lab building is going
well but it is slow. I am targeting some VNA and some microwave
equipment as well as precision DC and calibration standards. I am
in to the expensive toys it seems. RF is great fun, and a wonderful thing to sink your teeth into.
But yes, it does get expensive. The "good/fast/cheap (pick any
two)" rule applies here; amazing deals can be had if you're patient,
but personally I think patience isn't all it's cracked up to be. If
we keep waiting, by the time we're dead, we'll have great stuff...No
thanks! But really good deals do come along from time to time, if
you're lucky.
Your E4411B and 8596E are a great start. You'll need some good
signal sources too, and a good microwave counter. Next would
probably be a power meter. Fortunately these are all pretty easy to
come by, with the possible exception of a sensor for the power
meter.
As for background it is extremely wide and varied. But most of
it has been electronics based, computer based, or getting the two
to talk to each other in some way. I'll also be taking two students
to their first swap meet in a few months... their first one will be
the Dayton Hamvention. So we are going to start small? Hahaaa yes, trial by fire indeed. ;) If their minds aren't totally
blown by that, they might survive! B-)
I'm about 4.5hrs East of Dayton; I may have some gear for you, but
you'd need some car space. That may be a challenge after Dayton. ;)
I also run the Large Scale Systems Museum (google it) which you
might find interesting, if it would be convenient for you to extend
that Hamvention road trip.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Radu, ????????????? Totally agree. I have spent some time in what we will call heavy industry. It is one thing to know that a Tek 576 can light you up with 1500 Vdc and might kill you. It is QUITE another to stand next to a peace of equipment that will DEFFINATLY kill you and not even notice that you are in the way. Safety is key in any lab or industrial environment. Respect and caution is needed, abject terror can also be harmful. We don¡¯t need a full flame retardant hazmat suit to deal with an isopropyl alcohol spill. Though HR might want me to use one. ?I have run in to quite a few that won¡¯t take a failed power supply apart and even look at it ¡°because it plugs in to the wall¡± one of my goals is to empower people especially just starting out. Those first few successes are critical. But if one of the first projects is a CRO scope it is also good for some one to say hey don¡¯t touch the fat red wire. Weird stuff like insulation doesn¡¯t work so well at 21,000 Vdc ? It has been strange to watch the pendulum swing over the years in that respect. I have known a time when we still had silver thermometers. ? Zen
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Radu Bogdan Dicher Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2022 12:10 AM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns! ? Dave, Eric! (as I've known you as Zen over emails), Agewise, I'm probably right between you two, though?I'll wager far closer to Eric than Dave. Likely at least the same generation. I've been doing tubes for a good bit over 15 years, and repeatedly getting to taste the 450V of my amps' B+ hasn't ever deterred me. I started with electronics at about 7, and no one watched me much if at all at the club house when I was etching my boards with acid.? That said, I do want to suggest a certain amount of reserve with how we feel about the dangers of industry from certain times. I grew up in the most polluted place in Europe in the '80s (to substantiate, this orange acid rain was coming down most evenings around 6:30PM, so no one would ever be out for a couple of hours around that time, particularly in the fall, due to factory schedule of heavy chemicals waste release through unfiltered tall towers and atmospheric?conditions on this riverbed valley, and hanging clothes to dry was a lottery in terms of whether you'd be picking them black when dry due to other chemical agents being released in the air at other times, and for kms around this factory, up and down that same valley, the landscape was factually lunar as there was no growth on the bare, red, soil) and I can tell you living?with heavy metals around you, and inside you, does have effects on your body (and probably mind). I am saying this based upon my experience, and growth as a young boy. I am very careful with my kid around my bench.? Now, all this said, I want to make sure I thank you, Dave, for encouraging me on a certain project a while back (the younger hobbyist tackling a b..ch of a problem). I can't overstate how important this is, for folks from newbies to maybe some of the veterans. Some of these projects are not easy - if they were, no one would ask for help, and this forum would probably have little reason for being. I don't think we tend to have enough regard for encouraging the OP (sweating and swearing at their bench over a perplexing issue, and probably hating their project a bit at the point of asking for input), and making them feel as part of a community. THIS IS HUGE. I almost never capitalize, but here it's called for, and I am.? I am stating this to point out Dave's points, demeanor, and moderation on this forum. Fantastic job at this, Dave.? ? Definitely true for garden-variety FR-4 board material.? For serious microwave work, say >6GHz, you'd want a more stable material, like those made by Roger's, Isola, etc. Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device -------- Original message -------- Date: 3/18/22 7:22 PM (GMT-08:00) Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns! On 3/18/22 22:19, Lothar baier wrote:
> If you do edge coupled microstrip filters or directional couplers than the accuracy of the gaps is very important but another aspect that has to be considered is the roughness of the edges
?? Yes.? There's a great deal of activity in building replacement boards
and modules for instruments like ours (trying to bring this further
on-topic), so if the results there are adequate, this does open up some
possibilities.? One thing that causes trouble with the more affordable
board houses is that sometimes they change substrate compositions, so
the published dielectric constant isn't always something you can count on.
??????????? -Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
|
Re: HP83595A/B (HP 8350) ROM firmware required
Thanks!
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-----Message d'origine----- De : [email protected] < [email protected]> De la part de Dave McGuire Envoy¨¦ : 18 mars 2022 22:09 ? : [email protected]Objet : Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP83595A/B (HP 8350) ROM firmware required If you don't need version 7 specifically, version 9 for 83595 is available from the KO4BB archive: -Dave On 3/18/22 22:02, Yves Tardif wrote: Hi, I have 8350B ver7 with 83595A with version 3, have you found
firmware V7 for plugin 83595A ?
Is there a version 7 for this plugin?
*De :*[email protected]
<[email protected]> *De la part de* Yue *Envoy¨¦
:* 8 novembre 2021 22:22 *? :* [email protected]
*Objet :* [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP83595A/B (HP 8350) ROM
firmware required
Hello!
Any one has an 83595 plugin (HP 8350) with firmware rev.7 ? I need the
U1 U2 ROM contents to make it work with 8510B. At this moment I only
found the rev. 4 on KO4BB, and seems only the rev.7 work with 8510B.
If you got an 83595 with firmware rev.7 please upload the ROM content
to KO4BB, and/or let me know.
Thanks lot !
p.s to check the plugin firmware revision: switch 8510B on [ shift ]
[
99 ]. Look the number shows on the plugin display.
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Dave, Eric! (as I've known you as Zen over emails),
Agewise, I'm probably right between you two, though?I'll wager far closer to Eric than Dave. Likely at least the same generation. I've been doing tubes for a good bit over 15 years, and repeatedly getting to taste the 450V of my amps' B+ hasn't ever deterred me. I started with electronics at about 7, and no one watched me much if at all at the club house when I was etching my boards with acid.?
That said, I do want to suggest a certain amount of reserve with how we feel about the dangers of industry from certain times. I grew up in the most polluted place in Europe in the '80s (to substantiate, this orange acid rain was coming down most evenings around 6:30PM, so no one would ever be out for a couple of hours around that time, particularly in the fall, due to factory schedule of heavy chemicals waste release through unfiltered tall towers and atmospheric?conditions on this riverbed valley, and hanging clothes to dry was a lottery in terms of whether you'd be picking them black when dry due to other chemical agents being released in the air at other times, and for kms around this factory, up and down that same valley, the landscape was factually lunar as there was no growth on the bare, red, soil) and I can tell you living?with heavy metals around you, and inside you, does have effects on your body (and probably mind). I am saying this based upon my experience, and growth as a young boy. I am very careful with my kid around my bench.?
Now, all this said, I want to make sure I thank you, Dave, for encouraging me on a certain project a while back (the younger hobbyist tackling a b..ch of a problem). I can't overstate how important this is, for folks from newbies to maybe some of the veterans. Some of these projects are not easy - if they were, no one would ask for help, and this forum would probably have little reason for being. I don't think we tend to have enough regard for encouraging the OP (sweating and swearing at their bench over a perplexing issue, and probably hating their project a bit at the point of asking for input), and making them feel as part of a community. THIS IS HUGE. I almost never capitalize, but here it's called for, and I am.?
I am stating this to point out Dave's points, demeanor, and moderation on this forum. Fantastic job at this, Dave.? Radu.?
Definitely true for garden-variety FR-4 board material.? For serious microwave work, say >6GHz, you'd want a more stable material, like those made by Roger's, Isola, etc.
Jim Ford
Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
-------- Original message -------- Date: 3/18/22 7:22 PM (GMT-08:00) Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
On 3/18/22 22:19, Lothar baier wrote: > If you do edge coupled microstrip filters or directional couplers than the accuracy of the gaps is very important but another aspect that has to be considered is the roughness of the edges ?? Yes.? There's a great deal of activity in building replacement boards and modules for instruments like ours (trying to bring this further on-topic), so if the results there are adequate, this does open up some possibilities.? One thing that causes trouble with the more affordable board houses is that sometimes they change substrate compositions, so the published dielectric constant isn't always something you can count on. ??????????? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
So the challenge you run into when building replacement modules ( and I am entertaining the idea right now for the power amplifier MIC in the 8753 sources ) is that first of most microwave circuits use ceramic and are wire bonded , although substrates exist that offer similar dielectric properties than Al2O3 wire bonding on those substrates is not trivial !
The bigger challenge though is to figure out the specs of the original module , I been thinking about using a bad 8753 source and rigging it up with some test points to measure power and DC voltages going into the power amp and the loss from output to the step attenuator but right now I haven¡¯t found the motivation yet
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave McGuire via groups.io Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 9:22 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns! On 3/18/22 22:19, Lothar baier wrote: If you do edge coupled microstrip filters or directional couplers than
the accuracy of the gaps is very important but another aspect that has
to be considered is the roughness of the edges Yes. There's a great deal of activity in building replacement boards and modules for instruments like ours (trying to bring this further on-topic), so if the results there are adequate, this does open up some possibilities. One thing that causes trouble with the more affordable board houses is that sometimes they change substrate compositions, so the published dielectric constant isn't always something you can count on. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
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Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Back when I worked at UT as a research engineer we had a laser cutting system for MMIC Dies , it was a interesting device but required a lot of skill and experience to use , when you looked through the scope it looked like carpet bombing ?
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Bryce Schroeder via groups.io Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 9:22 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns! I've looked at the laser'd traces from above a lot, tested their isolation with a megger, etc and found them all satisfactory, but I don't know how the roughness is side-on. It would be interesting to investigate. The laser is fundamentally a pulsed device, but the pulse rate is in the 10s of kHz (up to maybe a MHz depending on the particular kind of laser) and cutting through even ordinary half oz copper is a lot of individual passes. Definitely something to investigate. On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 at 22:19, Lothar baier <Lothar@...> wrote:
If you do edge coupled microstrip filters or directional couplers than
the accuracy of the gaps is very important but another aspect that has
to be considered is the roughness of the edges
On Mar 18, 2022, at 21:04, Dave McGuire via groups.io <mcguire@...> wrote:
?On 3/18/22 21:57, Bryce Schroeder wrote:
Yes, it can hold 50 micron / 2 thou trace separation. I am in the
(slow) process of preparing a complete tutorial and open-source
tool chain. (It works, but actually using it at this point is quite
an undertaking for software reasons. I only just last year reverse
engineered the proprietary protocol used by the engraver:
) The calibration process is
also somewhat involved, but it's important (I imagine especially if
you are doing microwave filters and other things where the
dimensions are highly critical to be accurate not just precise.) Nice! I'll look forward to your tutorial.
The engraver I'm using is an inexpensive (relatively) Chinese one.
They don't really have a brand name, but the control board is
Beijing Golden Orange (Bejing JCZ) and the laser source is usually
JPT or Raycus. A 20W one will work fine though 30 or 50 W should be faster.
They cost $2-3 grand, though, so this may be cost prohibitive if
you don't do a lot of PCBs. I design probably twenty PCBs per year, so in-house prototypes would be a big deal here. I just try to interleave my tasks so OshPark's two-week delay doesn't impact me too much, but every now and then clients demand faster service. $2-3K would be difficult right now, since production runs have basically stopped due to component availability issues, but hopefully that will clear up before too long.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
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Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
With FR-4 you definatly have issues with ER lot variations this is why you use materials like rogers 4350B
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave McGuire via groups.io Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 9:22 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns! On 3/18/22 22:19, Lothar baier wrote: If you do edge coupled microstrip filters or directional couplers than
the accuracy of the gaps is very important but another aspect that has
to be considered is the roughness of the edges Yes. There's a great deal of activity in building replacement boards and modules for instruments like ours (trying to bring this further on-topic), so if the results there are adequate, this does open up some possibilities. One thing that causes trouble with the more affordable board houses is that sometimes they change substrate compositions, so the published dielectric constant isn't always something you can count on. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
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Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Whether or not a board under etches traces, or over etches traces is entirely dependent on the resist used. Insulating resists don't create any fields in the tank, so they tend to over etch the traces: \^^^^^^^^/ . Metallic resists (gold, solder) do create electric fields that electrolytically deflect the etching action away from the resist, so they tend to under etch the traces: /^^^^^^^^^\ . (Or is it the other way around? It has been so long ago.) -Chuck Harris On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 00:52:13 +0000 "Lothar baier" <Lothar@...> wrote: Eventually dad bought a etch tank from isel , it used a different
cchemical (ammonia persulphate ) and the agitation was done by the
means of air bubbles generated by a airpump ! The problem with ferric
chloride was that while it worked great for most boards dad did I had
issues with under etching on my microwave boards
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Zentronics42
via groups.io Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 6:27 PM To:
[email protected] Subject: Re: BS, was Re:
[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
I still etch with ferric chloride here at the house. But I do use an
earth sciences Hot shaker table with a water bath rather than food
prep area. So at least some improvement.
Zen
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Lothar baier
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 6:55 PM To:
[email protected] Subject: Re: BS, was Re:
[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Oh lord , I remember me and dad etching circuit boards using ferric
chloride solution on the kitchen stove
On Mar 18, 2022, at 17:22, Dave McGuire via groups.io
<mcguire@...> wrote:
?On 3/18/22 18:00, Zentronics42@... wrote:
Zen is one of my names I guess. Living in the digital age you
seem to collect things like names. I have gone by Zenwizard on
line for going on 25 years now. For off line use I am an Eric,
however there are also some that know me as Adain (there is a LONG
off topic story there). Ah, sorta. I've been living in that same digital age, but never
did the nickname thing. We don't have rigid rules here, but this
is a mailing list of mostly professional types, so we do prefer the
use of given names. I'm by no means bossing you around on that,
but just consider it a light suggestion from a list moderator.
Either way, welcome!
I am honestly looking to push the lab in to the RF space. But even
now the gear is cost prohibitive to acquire at a rapid pace. I
have recently (with in the last year) been able to acquire proper
spectrum analyzers for the lab. HP E4411B and HP 8596E. I have my
10 Mhz reference sorted this year as well. So lab building is
going well but it is slow. I am targeting some VNA and some
microwave equipment as well as precision DC and calibration
standards. I am in to the expensive toys it seems. RF is great fun, and a wonderful thing to sink your teeth into.
But yes, it does get expensive. The "good/fast/cheap (pick any
two)" rule applies here; amazing deals can be had if you're
patient, but personally I think patience isn't all it's cracked up
to be. If we keep waiting, by the time we're dead, we'll have
great stuff...No thanks! But really good deals do come along from
time to time, if you're lucky.
Your E4411B and 8596E are a great start. You'll need some good
signal sources too, and a good microwave counter. Next would
probably be a power meter. Fortunately these are all pretty easy
to come by, with the possible exception of a sensor for the power
meter.
As for background it is extremely wide and varied. But most of
it has been electronics based, computer based, or getting the two
to talk to each other in some way. I'll also be taking two
students to their first swap meet in a few months... their first
one will be the Dayton Hamvention. So we are going to start
small? Hahaaa yes, trial by fire indeed. ;) If their minds aren't
totally blown by that, they might survive! B-)
I'm about 4.5hrs East of Dayton; I may have some gear for you, but
you'd need some car space. That may be a challenge after
Dayton. ;) I also run the Large Scale Systems Museum (google it)
which you might find interesting, if it would be convenient for you
to extend that Hamvention road trip.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
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Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
A few words on FR-4 and RF boards ,? FR-4 generally ¡°works¡±? ok for RF boards up to 2GHz but if you use coupled microstrip filters or directional couplers you are going to have the time of your life getting repeatable results !
First of the dielectric constant of FR-4 is not tightly controlled and can vary from batch to batch , dielectric loss is also higher compared to microwave materials !
Generally for most applications rogers 4350 or 4003 are popular ,? the cost is competitive , the boards are fairly ridged comparable to FR4 and most FR4 lines can process them with no problems making it easy for board manufacturers .
For mm wave applications or if extremely low losses are required 5880 or 5880 are commonly used but those substrates require special processing especially for plated through holes and the materials are expensive
?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Jim Ford via groups.io
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 9:44 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
?
Definitely true for garden-variety FR-4 board material.? For serious microwave work, say >6GHz, you'd want a more stable material, like those made by Roger's, Isola, etc.
Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
-------- Original message --------
Date: 3/18/22 7:22 PM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
On 3/18/22 22:19, Lothar baier wrote:
> If you do edge coupled microstrip filters or directional couplers than the accuracy of the gaps is very important but another aspect that has to be considered is the roughness of the edges
?? Yes.? There's a great deal of activity in building replacement boards
and modules for instruments like ours (trying to bring this further
on-topic), so if the results there are adequate, this does open up some
possibilities.? One thing that causes trouble with the more affordable
board houses is that sometimes they change substrate compositions, so
the published dielectric constant isn't always something you can count on.
??????????? -Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
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Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Back in 1972, when I worked for DEI, I did photo resist application on circuit boards, and it is trivial. We had a stainless steel rectangular tank, big enough so you could vertically dip the biggest card we did, but small enough so that it held a minimal amount of chemicals. The tank was bent out of sheet metal in our shop, and had a little S.S. lid, like a gift box, that covered the tank when we weren't using it. We cleaned the copper until it was shiny, and did a final clean with tri-chlor, and then simply dipped it in the KPR and extracted it, letting it drip dry in a dark space. It's that easy. I am sure that someone still makes KPR, though I have no idea who. Exposure was done as a contact print, with a small carbon arc lamp as the source. It was developed by dipping the exposed board in tri-chlor, where the unexposed KPR would wash away. -Chuck Harris On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 01:04:22 +0000 "Lothar baier" <Lothar@...> wrote: I stopped doing it years ago mainly because the materials I mostly
use ( Rogers 4350,6010) are not available with photo resist coating
and if you send them out for coating than the lot charge is quite
high ,also the process for plating through at home is not easy to do
and requires quite nasty chemicals so I resort nowadays to just have
the boards made by a board shop
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bryce
Schroeder via groups.io Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:59 PM To:
[email protected] Subject: Re: BS, was Re:
[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
I've started "etching" PCBs with a fiber laser engraver. The bog
standard 1064 nm ones can do it, which somewhat surprised me. Glad to
not have to coat PCBs in photosensitive goo anymore since the laser
can remove copper and solder mask selectively. (Well, I still need
goo for silk screen, but that is much less critical.)
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Re: Agilent 3458A Troubleshooting
You can get the clip from Artekmedia. The first step is always to
check all the low voltage power supply voltages. The calibration
on the 3458a just needs a precision 10 volt reference and an
accurate 10 k resistor. It is a wondeful instrument but repair and
cal Keysight is a bit painful. It is still in production.
Regards and good luck.
On 3/18/2022 10:30 PM, Labguy wrote:
I am trying to restore an HP3458A DVM and I need a little help.
I acquired this unit on ePay some time ago and I finally found
some time to check it out. The outside and inside are both neat
and clean. The build date is 1988, but someone has maintained over
the years, because it has the latest firmware ROMs fitted (Rev 9).
The Dallas NV RAMs are 2012, so they are nearing end of life. It
is fitted with Option 002? Improved DC reference stability 4
ppm/year(!). The Cal sticker says it was last calibrated in 2013.
A visual check of the PCBs revealed nothing obvious, so after
setting the mains switch to 230V I decided to power it up. I was
greeted with a sizzle and an acrid smell. I have been there before
with other old test gear - the Schaffner mains filter kacked
itself. So I ordered a new one and replaced it.
When I powered the unit on again, I was greeted with a short BEEP
and the first rectangular block of the green electroluminescent
display flashes ON and OFF. That's as far as it gets. I have
searched the Agilent manuals, all the info I could find on the
internet and watched some excellent Youtube clips on repairing and
calibrating 3458A's. I cannot find any troubleshooting reference
for a flashing single character block on the display.
I am thinking there may be something wrong with the firmware code
in one of the EPROMs that is causing it to hang while booting. I
have an EPROM reader/burner, but I am reluctant to go there until
I am sure I have to. I would be most grateful for any advice
anyone may care to offer.
Cheers,
George
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This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Re: Agilent 3458A Troubleshooting
On a quick note - just wanted to congratulate you for the score - assuming you didn't pay an arm and a leg for it (as they tend to go for, last I checked).? Good luck with the repair! I'm certain this group will help to reach a positive resolution. Radu.?
On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 7:32 PM Labguy < georgg@...> wrote: I am trying to restore an HP3458A DVM and I need a little help.
I acquired this unit on ePay some time ago and I finally found some time to check it out. The outside and inside are both neat and clean. The build date is 1988, but someone has maintained over the years, because it has the latest firmware ROMs fitted (Rev 9). The Dallas NV RAMs are 2012, so they are nearing end of life. It is fitted with Option 002? Improved DC reference stability 4 ppm/year(!). The Cal sticker says it was last calibrated in 2013.
A visual check of the PCBs revealed nothing obvious, so after setting the mains switch to 230V I decided to power it up. I was greeted with a sizzle and an acrid smell. I have been there before with other old test gear - the Schaffner mains filter kacked itself. So I ordered a new one and replaced it.
When I powered the unit on again, I was greeted with a short BEEP and the first rectangular block of the green electroluminescent display flashes ON and OFF. That's as far as it gets. I have searched the Agilent manuals, all the info I could find on the internet and watched some excellent Youtube clips on repairing and calibrating 3458A's. I cannot find any troubleshooting reference for a flashing single character block on the display.
I am thinking there may be something wrong with the firmware code in one of the EPROMs that is causing it to hang while booting. I have an EPROM reader/burner, but I am reluctant to go there until I am sure I have to. I would be most grateful for any advice anyone may care to offer.
Cheers,
George
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rmb_guru
Alexandre Souza