Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
This is an amazing story. I wonder if it would make any sense to try to get some of these kids onto this list. Too many young people fall into the trap of believing a $30 "nano" oscilloscope from China is better than a real instrument because it's newer. Given the typical modern consumer upbringing, this is reasonable. But we could teach people like this why things don't really work that way.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that we have a responsibility to do so.
-Dave
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On 3/18/22 09:58, William Ray via groups.io wrote: Not to prolong the off-topic, but perhaps to move it in a more positive direction, I will direct your attention to recently published patent:
WO 2022/040182
You can find it with Google.
There's nothing in there that most, or perhaps all of the members here couldn't accomplish, it's almost all digital (though wringing the analog gremlins out of the power supply system sufficiently well to avoid false triggering took quite a lot of time on the 'scope), and most of the work was done on a Tek scope (but a couple Agilent MSOs, and a HP 54201d and 16702a that they fixed up also participated), but...
Essentially /all/ of the electronics design and development work described here, was conducted by a series of High School Junior or Senior research-capstone students.? ?The very first version was developed by an Ohio State University computer-science Junior, but it kept catching on fire (literally), so the first HS student who worked on it essentially redeveloped it piece-by piece from scratch.
Dear (Brown haired) Sydney 1.0 came into the lab not knowing how to solder, and left a year later a grizzled veteran of chasing a vast amount of magic smoke, and with sufficient chops to dive into the Tek scope and fix it without being prompted when it crapped out (it wasn't a major problem - a simultaneous power supply and LCD-backlight issue, but I will be forever impressed with her tenacity and attitude - that young lady is unstoppable).
(Green-haired) Sydney 2.0 came into the lab a year later with a bit more pre-existing electronics knowledge (high-school robotics club), and decided to scrap the entire thru-hole/point-to-point system, learned how to design multilayer PCBs (on her own), then re-developed the entire thing as a monolithic, primarily surface-mount system.? She also orchestrated another group of students to develop more useful software to perform medical neuromuscular assessments.
I'm a physicist.? I helped the students by pointing them to resources like data sheets for shift-buffers when they had questions like "how the heck are we going to get the input from 512 switches into 2 pins on an Arduino???".? And I coached Sydney 1.0 through episodes of "Dr. Ray, it's hard to tell because of Taumer's (original Computer-Sci student) spaghetti wiring, but I'm almost certain this wire is a dead short between the power rail for the Hall-effect sensors and the ground on the shift buffers - what should I do?? Well, let's take it out and see what happens.? Oooh - I knew that wire over there was hot, but now it's glowing!" situations, but /they/ did this.? In High School.? ?I'm willing to bet that not many of the people suggesting that the kids are not all right, were designing and developing patentable devices when they were in HS.
Will Ray
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
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I am using an 8340B, I checked the firmware was new enough when I bought it, but now I don't know the keys to display it again. Yes the DB25 cable is connected, without this I would have no response at all above 20GHz.
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Moderated
Re: Recommendation for an "up to 1GHz" generator + sweeper
It depends on your expectations and budget ,? the NANO VNA are cheap but limited in their capabilities and accuracy the key is that you read up on the specs and be aware of the limitations !
On the other hand RF VNA such as the 8752/53 series have gotten dirt cheap on ebay and other auction sites compard to where they used to be ,? I just recently picked up a 8753D and a 8702D for under $500 ea ,? granted not close to the price
tag of a NANO but much more capabilities and better specs
?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Radu Bogdan Dicher via groups.io
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 10:48 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Recommendation for an "up to 1GHz" generator + sweeper
?
John,
This is a brilliant idea. I assume this would also allow good control over the sweep vs. readings. A whole world of possibilities.
Strictly for sweeping IF filters, the NanoVNA is perfect.?
?
On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 8:13 AM John Griessen <john@...> wrote:
On 3/17/22 21:00, Radu Bogdan Dicher wrote:
> Ruben,
> You're right, there's just two sweepers on that list, which complies with my original requirements.
>
> But I decided to keep the list a bit "looser" than how I started it;
Some of the GPIB controlled synthesized generators could be "swept" in GPIB code...probably not as quickly or smoothly, but...then
you can code the post processing to be whatever you want, and insert the results into a python lab notebook, etc.
I'm planning to use my 8657B that way.? It goes to 2.1GHz.
|
Moderated
Re: Recommendation for an "up to 1GHz" generator + sweeper
Yep, stick an evaluation board in a Bud box and you're good to go.? Even up to mmwave those modulator evbs are only a few hundred $$.
Jim Ford
Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
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-------- Original message -------- From: "Don Bitters via groups.io" <donbitters@...> Date: 3/18/22 8:48 AM (GMT-08:00) Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Recommendation for an "up to 1GHz" generator + sweeper
Re: the possible need for I-Q modulation, if the required generator does not have it internal it can be added as an external modulator to the output signal. External I-Q modulators are not cheap $1000+. The I-Q IC’s are less than $10 and a board would be needed with all necessary circuitry, however most of the IC mfrs. have demo modules/circuits available for free or very cheap development kits - add Vcc and cables and you are ready to go. You would also need 2 lower RF or audio sources for the modulation.? I have done this for some test procedures and I have seen and handled several of the I-Q modulators demo brds.? Most of them have sma-f connectors for the input, output, and modulation ports. I probably have one, but I have no clue where to find it. Don Bitters
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Moderated
Re: Recommendation for an "up to 1GHz" generator + sweeper
John, This is a brilliant idea. I assume this would also allow good control over the sweep vs. readings. A whole world of possibilities.
Lothar, Strictly for sweeping IF filters, the NanoVNA is perfect.?
Thank you, Radu.?
On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 8:13 AM John Griessen < john@...> wrote:
On 3/17/22 21:00, Radu Bogdan Dicher wrote:
> Ruben,
> You're right, there's just two sweepers on that list, which complies with my original requirements.
>
> But I decided to keep the list a bit "looser" than how I started it;
Some of the GPIB controlled synthesized generators could be "swept" in GPIB code...probably not as quickly or smoothly, but...then
you can code the post processing to be whatever you want, and insert the results into a python lab notebook, etc.
I'm planning to use my 8657B that way.? It goes to 2.1GHz.
|
Moderated
Re: Recommendation for an "up to 1GHz" generator + sweeper
Thats what i am doing to test PAs , use a CW generator and power meter and control it using labview, there are however 2 caveats to this approach .
First of its slow especially if you cover wideband sweeps and a lot of points as you have to account for the settling time of your synthesizer and power meter , the second issue is that since you are using a step sweep you might miss information that you would be able to see with a analog sweep
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On Mar 18, 2022, at 10:13, John Griessen via groups.io <john@...> wrote:
?
On 3/17/22 21:00, Radu Bogdan Dicher wrote:
Ruben,
You're right, there's just two sweepers on that list, which complies with my original requirements.
But I decided to keep the list a bit "looser" than how I started it; Some of the GPIB controlled synthesized generators could be "swept" in GPIB code...probably not as quickly or smoothly, but...then you can code the post processing to be whatever you want, and insert the results into a python lab notebook, etc.
I'm planning to use my 8657B that way. It goes to 2.1GHz.
|
Moderated
Re: Recommendation for an "up to 1GHz" generator + sweeper
Radu,
Lothar's point regarding the frequency stepping as opposed to frequency sweep is a good one for the hobbyist to bear in mind.? For bench measurements of components and subsystems you're usually better to use a (V)NA, modern or classic.? An alternative angle is that with the low price of e.g. nanoVNA's or similar, it's probably not worth sweating too much about sweep capability in the sig gen.? Still, for the occasional quick look at e.g. filters in a multi-conversion receiver, it can be handy to sweep at signal or various intermediate frequencies while monitoring the RF chain output with a decent RF probe. Most stepped generators are slow and painful in this application, as noted.? The R&S SML 01, with its quite fast stepping and settling, is better than most, as I found the other day when looking at the overall response of a classic Collins 75S-3B receiver.? One other thing to watch with at least some modern generators is the timing jitter associated with stepping which, while not important in automated test applications (for example) utilizing data valid indicators, produces poorly synched analog displays. Generators like the Rigol DSG815 suffer badly from this effect, while the R&S unit does not.
In simple terms I would suggest thinking carefully about whether the sweep capability is very important in a given environment and, if it is, to look for a sig gen with honest-to-goodness sweep and trigger/ramp outputs.? If sweeping is of secondary importance and you think you can live with a stepped generator, at least do the sums and understand what, with specified step and settling times, your frequency agility limits are.
It's also worth thinking about what fraction of your potential applications require a truly calibrated sweep.? For example, some simple linear FM with a few kHz deviation would have told most of the story in the quick receiver test example mentioned earlier.
Regards,
Peter.
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Moderated
Re: Recommendation for an "up to 1GHz" generator + sweeper
Dear All,
Re RP protection, I think DC protection is a different matter. ?For example many SAs have an input power limit of +20 dBm and 0 V DC. ?You have to check spec. carefully.
Re DC protection, it is best to have a procedure to avoid these problems, rather than rely on protection.
In my vacation job days of repairing VHF radio and radar; the procedure before connecting a signal generator was:
1. Disable transmit physically- disconnect the private wires carrying keying signals; unplug fist microphone or whatever. 2. Measure the voltage between centre pin and outer of the cable connecting the signal generator to the transceiver. 3. Short the centre pin and outer of the cable to confirm. 4. Connect to signal generator.
Sometimes, techs. did not follow the procedure; I remember a red-faced lad who had applied 50W straight into the output of a newly acquired R&S signal generator.
He also borrowed and broke my multimeter.
He did not last long at the company.
As for the choice of generator, if sweep functions are required that limits the choice.?
If ultra-low phase noise is not needed I would recommend the 8656B; cheap, light weight, easy to use and pretty reliable.
The 8643A has better performance, but is large and heavy. The 8642 even heavier.
Regards,
Alwyn
?
_____________________________________________________
Alwyn Seeds, Director
SynOptika Ltd.,
114 Beaufort Street,
London,
SW3 6BU,
England.
SynOptika Ltd., Registered in England and Wales: No. 04606737
Registered Office: 114 Beaufort Street, London, SW3 6BU, United Kingdom. _____________________________________________________
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Moderated
Re: Recommendation for an "up to 1GHz" generator + sweeper
Re: the possible need for I-Q modulation, if the required generator does not have it internal it can be added as an external modulator to the output signal. External I-Q modulators are not cheap $1000+. The I-Q IC’s are less than $10 and a board would be needed with all necessary circuitry, however most of the IC mfrs. have demo modules/circuits available for free or very cheap development kits - add Vcc and cables and you are ready to go. You would also need 2 lower RF or audio sources for the modulation. I have done this for some test procedures and I have seen and handled several of the I-Q modulators demo brds. Most of them have sma-f connectors for the input, output, and modulation ports.
I probably have one, but I have no clue where to find it.
Don Bitters
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Moderated
Re: Recommendation for an "up to 1GHz" generator + sweeper
8642 is in that boat for example. But one could craft a bit of,say, Python and drive the sig gen and a suitable meter and you have a poor man's scalar filter measurement setup. Takes a bit longer maybe, but imho doable.
As a side note: I kinda like the modulation generator that is part of the 8642, I think it can go to 100kHz and is usable on its own.
Wilko
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Moderated
Re: Recommendation for an "up to 1GHz" generator + sweeper
On 3/17/22 21:00, Radu Bogdan Dicher wrote: Ruben,
You're right, there's just two sweepers on that list, which complies with my original requirements.
But I decided to keep the list a bit "looser" than how I started it; Some of the GPIB controlled synthesized generators could be "swept" in GPIB code...probably not as quickly or smoothly, but...then you can code the post processing to be whatever you want, and insert the results into a python lab notebook, etc. I'm planning to use my 8657B that way. It goes to 2.1GHz.
|
Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Bonjour à tous,
Very Fine to learn of the reemergence of Ham Fleas!
I was a regular at Foothills, Lockheed in Silicon Valley and Livermore flea and LLNL salvage lot in 1980s..1990s. I attended Friedst. German Ham a few times.
Over the decades the actual ham radio and vintage test equipment was gradually displaced by computer stuff, and by booths of modern stuff, oftentimes cheap Chinese.
Sadly, old friends went silent key.... Jim Williams, Bob Pease, Ron Lesea, RIP.
A fine memory......
Nowadays I have an overflow of equipment and documents, and seldom have a chance to participate.
In France I still visit the street sales, Fleas and ebay.fr,
Just the ramblings of an old retired EE
Jon
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Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!
Not to prolong the off-topic, but perhaps to move it in a more positive direction, I will direct your attention to recently published patent:
WO 2022/040182
You can find it with Google.
There's nothing in there that most, or perhaps all of the members here couldn't accomplish, it's almost all digital (though wringing the analog gremlins out of the power supply system sufficiently well to avoid false triggering took quite a lot of time on the 'scope), and most of the work was done on a Tek scope (but a couple Agilent MSOs, and a HP 54201d and 16702a that they fixed up also participated), but...
Essentially?all of the electronics design and development work described here, was conducted by a series of High School Junior or Senior research-capstone students.? ?The very first version was developed by an Ohio State University computer-science Junior, but it kept catching on fire (literally), so the first HS student who worked on it essentially redeveloped it piece-by piece from scratch.
Dear (Brown haired) Sydney 1.0 came into the lab not knowing how to solder, and left a year later a grizzled veteran of chasing a vast amount of magic smoke, and with sufficient chops to dive into the Tek scope and fix it without being prompted when it crapped out (it wasn't a major problem - a simultaneous power supply and LCD-backlight issue, but I will be forever impressed with her tenacity and attitude - that young lady is unstoppable).
(Green-haired) Sydney 2.0 came into the lab a year later with a bit more pre-existing electronics knowledge (high-school robotics club), and decided to scrap the entire thru-hole/point-to-point system, learned how to design multilayer PCBs (on her own), then re-developed the entire thing as a monolithic, primarily surface-mount system.? She also orchestrated another group of students to develop more useful software to perform medical neuromuscular assessments.
I'm a physicist.? I helped the students by pointing them to resources like data sheets for shift-buffers when they had questions like "how the heck are we going to get the input from 512 switches into 2 pins on an Arduino???".? And I coached Sydney 1.0 through episodes of "Dr. Ray, it's hard to tell because of Taumer's (original Computer-Sci student) spaghetti wiring, but I'm almost certain this wire is a dead short between the power rail for the Hall-effect sensors and the ground on the shift buffers - what should I do?? Well, let's take it out and see what happens.? Oooh - I knew that wire over there was hot, but now it's glowing!" situations, but they did this.? In High School.? ?I'm willing to bet that not many of the people suggesting that the kids are not all right, were designing and developing patentable devices when they were in HS.
Will Ray
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Re: Youtube video HP service center in the 90th
Nice document, lovely racks full of my fav boxes
Regards,
Ruben
|
Re: HP YIG replacement 3-7GHz
Hello Gerald and others interested,
I have a FS2772R-smt TINYig from Teledyne (4-8 GHz) that I tested
on the bench and it works quite good actually. Very easy to
operate and it certainly works down to 3.7 GHz. Specs are quite
similar to the one shown in Geralds table. It does not have a
heater. It seems very tempting to me to make it a replacement for
the YIG's used in HP and other equipment that fail regularly and
likely more so with age. Pout is only +6dBm (min) so normally it
needs a post amplifier, a good idea anyway as this will also
function as buffer. Bias is + 8 V dc and -5 V dc. Then we have to
design some interface electronics as the main tuning coil needs a
polarity reversible current, not seen before at the usual YIG's.
Zero current is near 5.5 GHz, confirmed in my tests. I did not
test FM coil. I would prefer some sort of plug in replacement: so
the famous 10 (?) pole plug interface to the spec an (in my case)
and sma output. Space would not normally be a problem, I think.?
All the effort would only make sense to me if the TINYig is
available at an affordable price. Say max 300 USD? I am in for a
group buy and a group effort to design the interface. Maybe I miss
something and more experienced people may comment.
Best regards, Harke, PA0HRK
On 17/03/2022 17:41, Peter Hansen
wrote:
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Hi Lothar problem is a hp yig drift cold to hot about 5mhz
the round avantek drfift around 30mhz so even though the time to
heat is small the yig still drift 30mhz?
actually it shouldnt take long for the
YIG to heat up ,? the heater in a YTO actually is a small
thermistor mounted on the BeO rod that holds the YIG Sphere
, the thermistor has a low DC resistance as bias current is
applied it heats up fast , resistance increases and current
drops so its not like a OXCO where the whole thing is heated
?
?
Oh remember you start with a cold yig
with heaters on the drift is around 30Mhz that is too much
for the loop. I meaured that drift on actually units.
Widen the loop in the 8563 makes the phasenoise become
bad?
Yes HP typically used tuning
sensitivity of 25-30MHz/mA intead of 20MHz which results
in higher current draw , the question is whether the
driver and PSU can handle this !
Usually
temperature should not be a issue if you connect the
heater?
On
Mar 17, 2022, at 06:23, Peter Hansen via groups.io
<oz1lpr@...>
wrote:
?
Hello Guys
I have been trying to adapt new Yigs to the
8560X series problem is The HP one need less
current for Tuning the complete range. And the
Loop in the 8560X series is allowing around
10Mhz of drift.
When
needed for higher current the temperature
diference is bigger meaning the Yig will drift
more than 10Mhz. This leaves the unit either LO
unlock ERR301 cold or? when hot.
Redesigning
the loop for bigger drift is not an easy task
and I did not succed yet.
I was
using the Avantek Yigs that can be found on ebay
rather cheap but it will not make a easy change
Hi
Everyone,
HP YIG's have been failing due to age and some
reports of batch oscillator transistor faults.?
Luis Cupido -?CT1DMK did conduct repairs until
his transistor stock ran out. There are plenty
of freebay units about, good luck , and there is
one reputable repair service about, but they are
refurbished units,?not new, thus life
expectancy is not guaranteed beyond initial 12
months.
I have been researching a very
close replacement for your typical 3-7GHz YIG
like the HP 5086-7903 and possibly others to
suit spectrum analysers from DC-2.9GHz, 85/86
series possibly others.
A very close equivalent?unit is
available after months of effort contacting
Teledyne, The Teledyne FS3013R. Data sheet and
an updated comparison sheet version 3.0 can be
found in the files area ,YIG directory Paul
created.
I recently received a quote from a Teledyne
agent in Aus, a new FS3013R is approx. US$1,332
delivered to Australia. However, the greater the
QTY the lower the cost. I would like to see a
cost per unit for around US$900 delivered.
There is a catch, it is not a simple drop in and
all will be OK. Extensive research and effort is
needed to integrate the FS3013R into the
analyser and it's YIG driver circuit along with
the Cal process, however it is a very close
fit?? ?
I would like to see a cost per unit less then
US$900 delivered.?This brings me to a question
without notice, is anyone interested in a large
group buy, the?greater the QTY the lower the
cost?
I just need numbers for now, the formalities can
come later if the enthusiasm is there.
Regards
Gerald
Vk3GJM
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Re: What is Option G20 on an HP 8648D Signal Generator?
There are a couple of ways to skin this cat , you can shoot a email to Keysight asking if they can provide you with some information on G20 , whether you get a response depends on the rep who gets a hold of your email and whether or not the option is protected
?! HP made custom options on customer request those included usually modifying specifications and/or grouping different options together for defense customers usually the letter H was used while large commercial clients the letter C was used , sometimes a
option was made for one specific customer only and this included a NDA by HP not to disclose any information about the option to third parties without authorization by the client if G20 was such a option than Keysight will be tight lipped unless the customer
no longer exists or the NDA expired!
Another way would be to go into the system or service menu and find the option information in there , unfortunately HP never been consistent about this so some models have the options listed others dont but it’s worth a try?
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On Mar 17, 2022, at 23:36, Stan via groups.io <swperk@...> wrote:
?
I have an HP 8648D signal generator that says "Option G20" on the rear label, By pushing various buttons, I've found that this option seems to include at least the modulation generator (option 1E2) and pulse modulation (option 1E6).
It does not seem to have the high power output (option 1EA) since I can't set the output power any higher than +14.5 dBm, although +14.5 dBm is still higher than the specs for the standard instrument (up to 2500 MHz, max amplitude is +13 dBm, above 2500 MHz,
max power is +10 dBm)..
This model is not eligible to have the pager option (option 1EP).
What I'd really like to find out is if option G20 also incorporates the high stability timebase (option 1E5). I don't want to break the cal seals to open it up and have a look, so I was hoping someone on this list might know.
Thanks,
Stan
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Re: HP1662A logic analyser software?
On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 2:58 PM rkward via groups.io <rkward@...> wrote:
Joe, did you ever have any luck finding a method to download waveforms? I've been looking for the manuals (any/all operation, service, programming) and haven't had much luck. Typically these are easy to find but for some reason these have not been. I could potentially help you with creating LV code to get what you need.
Agilent Technologies 1660A Series 50/100-MHz State, 500-MHz Timing Logic Analyzers User’s Reference, 01660-97034 Agilent Technologies 1660A/AS-Series Logic Analyzers Programmer’s Guide, 01660-97033 HP 1660 Series Logic Analyzers Service Guide, 01660-97002
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What is Option G20 on an HP 8648D Signal Generator?
I have an HP 8648D signal generator that says "Option G20" on the rear label, By pushing various buttons, I've found that this option seems to include at least the modulation generator (option 1E2) and pulse modulation (option 1E6).
It does not seem to have the high power output (option 1EA) since I can't set the output power any higher than +14.5 dBm, although +14.5 dBm is still higher than the specs for the standard instrument (up to 2500 MHz, max amplitude is +13 dBm, above 2500 MHz, max power is +10 dBm)..
This model is not eligible to have the pager option (option 1EP).
What I'd really like to find out is if option G20 also incorporates the high stability timebase (option 1E5). I don't want to break the cal seals to open it up and have a look, so I was hoping someone on this list might know.
Thanks,
Stan
|
Just double checking: you did connect the DB25 cable from the 8516 to the source ? Also what source are you using?
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On Mar 17, 2022, at 23:07, Lothar baier via groups.io <Lothar@...> wrote:
? What source power are you using? What is the serial number and fw revision of your source??
On Mar 17, 2022, at 23:05, Willy via groups.io <ratn9ne@...> wrote:
?With the 6 foot cable my system seems to be about 40% working.
From 20-40GHz S12 and S22 sometimes fully work. S11 and S21 only up to ~30ghz works, then the NO IF FOUND errors comes up. Changing the source power has an effect on how far the sweep gets before failing. Sometimes I also get a phase lock error. I notice that
the LED on the sweeper source gets very intermittent when the NO IF error shows up.
The sweeper has been tested good with a 8515 before this 8516 was thrown into the mix.
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What source power are you using? What is the serial number and fw revision of your source??
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Show quoted text
On Mar 17, 2022, at 23:05, Willy via groups.io <ratn9ne@...> wrote:
?With the 6 foot cable my system seems to be about 40% working.
From 20-40GHz S12 and S22 sometimes fully work. S11 and S21 only up to ~30ghz works, then the NO IF FOUND errors comes up. Changing the source power has an effect on how far the sweep gets before failing. Sometimes I also get a phase lock error. I notice that
the LED on the sweeper source gets very intermittent when the NO IF error shows up.
The sweeper has been tested good with a 8515 before this 8516 was thrown into the mix.
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Dave McGuire
Willy
Peter Hall, VK6HP/VK6MJM
Froggie the Gremlin
RubenRubio