From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris Wilkson via groups.io
Sent: 06 November 2021 06:50
To: [email protected]
Subject: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] New member intro

?

Hello Group!

I'm trying to get a handle on my test gear and decided to start looking at my HP hoard.
I need to decide what to keep/fix/purge/replace and finally joining here seemed like a good first step.

I have at least the following items, maybe more hiding unseen in the various piles:

HP:
- several linear power supplies,
- K04-0980A Powerstat
- a gain phase meter (3575A?)
- 33120A function generator
- 3456A voltmeter
- a pair of 1662AS logic analyzers (with at least one keyboard and one mouse...more I think)
- 8505A vector network analyzer with 8501 storage normalizer and 8503A S-parameter kit

Agilent:
- 1147A scope current probe (for the 3034T 'scope below)
- 34410A multimeter
- and maybe a scope in storage?? I need to check on that.

Keysight:
MSOX-3034T oscilloscope

Tektronix:
- approximately 0.42 container ships full of big iron piled ceiling high in the living room

Random other MFG's:
- a pair of IBM Model M keyboards, one for work and one for home (they count as boat anchors too!)
- generally too much stuff !!!

The immediate goal is to get all of this off the floor and off the benches so I can at least check functionality of everything.
Longer term I want to eliminate redundant gear and fill some holes in the lab and then start playing with stuff again!

Cheers,
-Chris

Hi Richard,

Bumble bee was a descriptive name based on the colorful
bands used to indicate the capacitor's value and voltage
rating. It was certainly not a brand name.

Tektronix used numerous 400V oil filled versions of this
capacitor. I replaced several dozen in my 513D, so I am
certain that your statement about the 650V version being
the only oil version is incorrect. The 400V rating is one
of the yellow bands that makes it look like a bumble bee.

Every one that I replaced had the oil filler tube.

I have observed that the capacitor "slug" is smaller than
the cavity that it fits into. It had to be, or they would
not have been able to fill the capacitor with oil from the
tube on the end. How did they make that cavity?

It is my impression that if the slug was misshapen, it most
probably was built that way. Perhaps to keep it from rattling
about in the larger cavity that it fit into.

Excepting where the solder sealed filler tube was damaged during
the capacitor's installation, oil filled BB's lasted a very long time...
easily more than 10 years. The ordinary beeswax dipped paper
capacitors became leaky after a year or two.

-Chuck Harris


On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:50:59 -0700 "Richard Knoppow"
<dickburk@...> wrote:

??? I want to respond to a couple of things in this thread.
First of all, there were other brands of molded paper caps. None
of these had the consistent problems of the Sprague caps of
cracking and actually breaking. Also, I have disected number of
failed plastic caps but don't see the distorted windings in
others. Something went very wrong with these. The early caps were
coded with the JAN striped coding, hence the name "Bumble Bee".
The actual brand name was Black Beauty. The 650V versions were
the oil filled ones, lower voltage were not oil filled. The oil
filled caps are often found with the oil leaked out. The failure
seems to be the seal of the filler tube. The tube was also the
lead on one side having a wire soldered (maybe welded) into it.
If the seal is disturbed by, for instance, excessive soldering
temperature, the oil will leak out. The SP-600 seems to have had
an especial problem with this.
?? Also, the property of dielectric absorption, which causes a
capacitor to retain some charge after being discharged, can be a
problem with timing and low frequency circuits. One of the few
virtues of paper capacitors is low dielectric absorption. They
are a better choice than mica and much better than HI-K ceramic
caps. Plastic film caps, particularly of certain types have
practically no DA and are the best choice. I don't think the
Black Beauty caps were particularly low in DA but all paper caps
are pretty good.
?? The Black Beauty line was advertised as a long life, high
quality brand. I think Sprague may have fixed the problems with
them eventually but they got a bad reputation quickly. Hammarlund
went to all ceramic caps and at least military SP-600's were
modified to replace all of the paper caps with ceramic ones.
Those are pretty much trouble free.
?? Whatever happened it caused physical distortion of the
windings of the caps. That could have come from shrinkage of the
case material as it cooled. It seems to be in both the oil filled
and non filled versions, at least the ones I've dissected.
On 11/5/2021 7:25 AM, greenboxmaven via groups.io wrote:

Thanks for this very good explanation. In addition to the
points you made, I have read the oil fill was often complete,
and hydrostatic force would test the integrety of the plastic.
Shrinkage and loss of resilience of the case would increase the
chance of cracks and leaks. The late 1940s is a fascinating
time in history for me. There was a great deal of technological
progress made, often with over confidence in new materials? and
techniques inspired by wartime successes that performed very
well in the short term but lacked long term reliability. The
"Bumble Bee" condensers were excellent in one regard- they had
very little residual charge in the dielectric after being fully
discharged. When used as a coupling condenser, that can make a
difference.

??? Bruce Gentry, KA2IVY



On 11/5/21 9:38, Chuck Harris wrote:

BB capacitors were molded as well as the technology of the day
would allow... That is not why they cracked.

The problem is the plastic they used, like most plastics, shrinks
slowly over time, and the wire leads, and especially the solder
sealed oil filler tube, that penetrate the plastic, don't.

This can cause a crack to form at the weakest point, which is
usually at the mold line formed by slight misalignment of the
mold halves.

When you injection mold plastic, the plastic's internal bonds
stretch out to fill the mold. When the plastic cools, it is
frozen into a state where those bonds are stretched.

Over time, under the continuous stress of these stretched bonds,
the plastic will cold flow into a more relaxed state... becoming
slightly smaller.

The problem is if the plastic is constrained by something inside of
it that cannot shrink.... such as the wire leads, a gear's hub,
or an oil filler tube, something has to give.

If the plastic shrinks around a metal tube, the thickest parts of
the plastic will break the thinest parts forming a crack, and a
leak.

I was told by Deane Kidd, that in the early days, Tektronix created
a situation, ripe for failure with BB capacitors, by putting them
tightly fitted into ceramic or bakelite terminal strips. When the
capacitor's leads were soldered, the heat traveling down the very
short leads would melt the capacitor's solder seal, allowing the
oil to mix with the solder, and make a leak. In the worst cases,
the oil would drool out leaving the capacitor incapable of
withstanding its rated voltage.

Not to mention it made a greasy dirty mess in their otherwise very
nice looking scopes.

-Chuck Harris

On Thu, 4 Nov 2021 14:40:42 -0400 "greenboxmaven via groups.io"
<ka2ivy@...> wrote:

Sprague "Bumble Bee" and "Black Beauty" condensers were molded
improperly, and they will crack, especially the oil filled ones,
and let in moisture. That seems to react with the oil and make it
conductive as well as corrosive. Once this happens, leakage gets
very bad, especially when the condenser is heated by surrounding
components. Many efforts have been made to bake? and otherwise
restore them, but once the problem begins it can not be reversed.
The dielectric charicteristic? is perported to be superb for audio
circuits, and AudioPhools will freak out if these condensers are
replaced, that is until the power transformer, rectifer, output
tubes, and filter choke in their amplifiers are all incinerated.
Not only did Hammarlund use them in receivers, Collins and
National did as well. Tektronix used them in their equipment, and
too many consumer electronics companies to recall all of them.

?? Bruce Gentry, KA2IVY

On 11/4/21 13:45, Richard Knoppow wrote:

Who made those? Some early advertising for Sprague Black Beauty
caps said they were plasticized paper. The main problem with
these is some sort of production problem they had. I have
dissected a number of "bumble bee" caps, these are actually
Sprague Black Beauty caps with striped value markigns. I found
the windings were distorted. I suspect this happened during the
encapsulation but don't know. Some of these caps, the higher
voltage ones, were oil impregnated. The oil was introduced
through a tube which formed one of the leads. It is common for
all the oil to have leaked out due to a lack of sealing at the
solder joint between the tube and the lead. That may have been
due to excessive heat when the caps were installed. The most
notorious of the BB caps are those in the Hammarlund SP-600,
however, they were very widely used including in a lot of -hp-
gear. However, in the receiver it is common to find cracked or
split caps or even caps where part of the casing has come off. I
have not seen that in any other make of equipment. Perhaps just
a bad lot or perhaps some difference in installation.
Nonetheless, ALL paper caps become degraded with age. The usual
symptom is an increase in series resistance. Leakage, which is
another term for parallel resistance, is sometimes a problem but
not as often. I don't think any of these caps, even the real oil
filled transmitting caps, was intended to have a lifetime of
over about ten years. The life problem was known and described
in some engineering texts. It was dependent partly on voltage;
the closer the voltage to the rated voltage the shorter the life
of the cap. Likely it was some sort of electrolytic degradation
of the paper. In any case, paper caps should be replaced with
modern plastic film caps. These for the most part will last
forever and generally will improve performance perhaps beyond
the original. There is a good amount of information on the web
about the relative merits of various kinds of plastic
dielectrics. Polypropylene seems to be about the best especially
for RF use.

On 11/4/2021 9:33 AM, Dave Wise wrote:

Even the later plasticized-paper “Prokar” and “DiFilm” versions
can cause trouble in some applications – they may not be leaky,
but their Dielectric Absorption and Dissipation Factor are
“through the roof”.

Dave Wise

*From:*[email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of
*greenboxmaven via groups.io
*Sent:* Thursday, November 04, 2021 6:25 AM
*To:*[email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP200CD
oscillator

ALL Sprague "Black Cat", "Black Beauty" and? color striped
"Bumble Bee" condensers should be considered bad on sight.
Unfortunately, they are common in older equipment of all makes
and models. The 630V. polyester condensers are a fine
replacement. The only condensers that are polarized are
electrolytics, poyester condensers are not polarized.

??? Bruce Gentry, KA2IVY

On 11/4/21 8:51, Richard Merifield wrote:

??? My unit has Black Cat 0.5MFD 400v axial capacitors for C8
??? and C9. Would 630v polyester unpolarised caps be ok
??? replacements?

Thanks for this very good explanation. In addition to the points you made, I have read the oil fill was often complete, and hydrostatic force would test the integrety of the plastic. Shrinkage and loss of resilience of the case would increase the chance of cracks and leaks. The late 1940s is a fascinating time in history for me. There was a great deal of technological progress made, often with over confidence in new materials? and techniques inspired by wartime successes that performed very well in the short term but lacked long term reliability. The "Bumble Bee" condensers were excellent in one regard- they had very little residual charge in the dielectric after being fully discharged. When used as a coupling condenser, that can make a difference.

??? Bruce Gentry, KA2IVY



On 11/5/21 9:38, Chuck Harris wrote:

BB capacitors were molded as well as the technology of the day
would allow... That is not why they cracked.

The problem is the plastic they used, like most plastics, shrinks
slowly over time, and the wire leads, and especially the solder
sealed oil filler tube, that penetrate the plastic, don't.

This can cause a crack to form at the weakest point, which is
usually at the mold line formed by slight misalignment of the
mold halves.

When you injection mold plastic, the plastic's internal bonds
stretch out to fill the mold. When the plastic cools, it is
frozen into a state where those bonds are stretched.

Over time, under the continuous stress of these stretched bonds,
the plastic will cold flow into a more relaxed state... becoming
slightly smaller.

The problem is if the plastic is constrained by something inside of
it that cannot shrink.... such as the wire leads, a gear's hub,
or an oil filler tube, something has to give.

If the plastic shrinks around a metal tube, the thickest parts of
the plastic will break the thinest parts forming a crack, and a leak.

I was told by Deane Kidd, that in the early days, Tektronix created
a situation, ripe for failure with BB capacitors, by putting them
tightly fitted into ceramic or bakelite terminal strips. When the
capacitor's leads were soldered, the heat traveling down the very
short leads would melt the capacitor's solder seal, allowing the oil
to mix with the solder, and make a leak. In the worst cases, the oil
would drool out leaving the capacitor incapable of withstanding its
rated voltage.

Not to mention it made a greasy dirty mess in their otherwise very
nice looking scopes.

-Chuck Harris

On Thu, 4 Nov 2021 14:40:42 -0400 "greenboxmaven via groups.io"
<ka2ivy@...> wrote:

Sprague "Bumble Bee" and "Black Beauty" condensers were molded
improperly, and they will crack, especially the oil filled ones, and
let in moisture. That seems to react with the oil and make it
conductive as well as corrosive. Once this happens, leakage gets very
bad, especially when the condenser is heated by surrounding
components. Many efforts have been made to bake? and otherwise
restore them, but once the problem begins it can not be reversed. The
dielectric charicteristic? is perported to be superb for audio
circuits, and AudioPhools will freak out if these condensers are
replaced, that is until the power transformer, rectifer, output
tubes, and filter choke in their amplifiers are all incinerated. Not
only did Hammarlund use them in receivers, Collins and National did
as well. Tektronix used them in their equipment, and too many
consumer electronics companies to recall all of them.

?? Bruce Gentry, KA2IVY

On 11/4/21 13:45, Richard Knoppow wrote:

Who made those? Some early advertising for Sprague Black Beauty
caps said they were plasticized paper. The main problem with these
is some sort of production problem they had. I have dissected a
number of "bumble bee" caps, these are actually Sprague Black
Beauty caps with striped value markigns. I found the windings were
distorted. I suspect this happened during the encapsulation but
don't know. Some of these caps, the higher voltage ones, were oil
impregnated. The oil was introduced through a tube which formed one
of the leads. It is common for all the oil to have leaked out due
to a lack of sealing at the solder joint between the tube and the
lead. That may have been due to excessive heat when the caps were
installed. The most notorious of the BB caps are those in the
Hammarlund SP-600, however, they were very widely used including in
a lot of -hp- gear. However, in the receiver it is common to find
cracked or split caps or even caps where part of the casing has
come off. I have not seen that in any other make of equipment.
Perhaps just a bad lot or perhaps some difference in installation.
Nonetheless, ALL paper caps become degraded with age. The usual
symptom is an increase in series resistance. Leakage, which is
another term for parallel resistance, is sometimes a problem but
not as often. I don't think any of these caps, even the real oil
filled transmitting caps, was intended to have a lifetime of over
about ten years. The life problem was known and described in some
engineering texts. It was dependent partly on voltage; the closer
the voltage to the rated voltage the shorter the life of the cap.
Likely it was some sort of electrolytic degradation of the paper.
In any case, paper caps should be replaced with modern plastic film
caps. These for the most part will last forever and generally will
improve performance perhaps beyond the original. There is a good
amount of information on the web about the relative merits of
various kinds of plastic dielectrics. Polypropylene seems to be
about the best especially for RF use.

On 11/4/2021 9:33 AM, Dave Wise wrote:

Even the later plasticized-paper “Prokar” and “DiFilm” versions
can cause trouble in some applications – they may not be leaky,
but their Dielectric Absorption and Dissipation Factor are
“through the roof”.

Dave Wise

*From:*[email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of
*greenboxmaven via groups.io
*Sent:* Thursday, November 04, 2021 6:25 AM
*To:*[email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP200CD oscillator

ALL Sprague "Black Cat", "Black Beauty" and? color striped "Bumble
Bee" condensers should be considered bad on sight. Unfortunately,
they are common in older equipment of all makes and models. The
630V. polyester condensers are a fine replacement. The only
condensers that are polarized are electrolytics, poyester
condensers are not polarized.

??? Bruce Gentry, KA2IVY

On 11/4/21 8:51, Richard Merifield wrote:

??? My unit has Black Cat 0.5MFD 400v axial capacitors for C8
??? and C9. Would 630v polyester unpolarised caps be ok
??? replacements?

After some investigation ... and with the levels from the manual, it would appear it is the YTF that is faulty ... the attenuator is fine, levels check perfectly ... I cannot imagine it is the relay, but I will check it at some point.? The response appears to be flat, so it is tracking correctly, just down in measured levels ... oh well, for my purposes, it is still useable, I can see what I need to see easily, I just need to remember the measured level is wrong!?? On the lower rang <3GHz, the levels measure perfectly correct.

On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 at 00:45, John Gord via <johngord=[email protected]> wrote:

Robin,
Do you have the Service Guide (08590-90316) and Component Level Information Package (5963-2591, sometimes 5963-2951)?? Both are available on the Keysight website.? They should help you trace where the amplitude drops.
--John Gord

On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 02:01 PM, Robin Szemeti wrote:

Hi,

?

I have an 8592L that has a level discrepancy between high and low bands ... of around 16dB, its the high band that is measuring flat, but low. ... it's not the mixer, that has been swapped for a known worker with exactly the same result (+- 0.5dB) ...? the amplitude, frequency and YTF cals complete without issue ... where to look next?

?

I bought this with a blown mixer, the upper range was down, the lower range was dead.?? Swapping the mixer for a known good one has restored the low range to full function, but the upper range still has the same low level ...

?

Ideas?

?

?

BB capacitors were molded as well as the technology of the day
would allow... That is not why they cracked.

The problem is the plastic they used, like most plastics, shrinks
slowly over time, and the wire leads, and especially the solder 
sealed oil filler tube, that penetrate the plastic, don't.

This can cause a crack to form at the weakest point, which is 
usually at the mold line formed by slight misalignment of the
mold halves.

When you injection mold plastic, the plastic's internal bonds
stretch out to fill the mold.  When the plastic cools, it is
frozen into a state where those bonds are stretched.

Over time, under the continuous stress of these stretched bonds,
the plastic will cold flow into a more relaxed state... becoming
slightly smaller.

The problem is if the plastic is constrained by something inside of
it that cannot shrink.... such as the wire leads, a gear's hub,
or an oil filler tube, something has to give.

If the plastic shrinks around a metal tube, the thickest parts of
the plastic will break the thinest parts forming a crack, and a leak.

I was told by Deane Kidd, that in the early days, Tektronix created
a situation, ripe for failure with BB capacitors, by putting them 
tightly fitted into ceramic or bakelite terminal strips.  When the
capacitor's leads were soldered, the heat traveling down the very
short leads would melt the capacitor's solder seal, allowing the oil
to mix with the solder, and make a leak.  In the worst cases, the oil
would drool out leaving the capacitor incapable of withstanding its
rated voltage.

Not to mention it made a greasy dirty mess in their otherwise very
nice looking scopes.

-Chuck Harris

On Thu, 4 Nov 2021 14:40:42 -0400 "greenboxmaven via groups.io"
<ka2ivy@...> wrote:

Sprague "Bumble Bee" and "Black Beauty" condensers were molded 
improperly, and they will crack, especially the oil filled ones, and
let in moisture. That seems to react with the oil and make it
conductive as well as corrosive. Once this happens, leakage gets very
bad, especially when the condenser is heated by surrounding
components. Many efforts have been made to bake? and otherwise
restore them, but once the problem begins it can not be reversed. The
dielectric charicteristic? is perported to be superb for audio
circuits, and AudioPhools will freak out if these condensers are
replaced, that is until the power transformer, rectifer, output
tubes, and filter choke in their amplifiers are all incinerated. Not
only did Hammarlund use them in receivers, Collins and National did
as well. Tektronix used them in their equipment, and too many
consumer electronics companies to recall all of them.

 ?? Bruce Gentry, KA2IVY

On 11/4/21 13:45, Richard Knoppow wrote:

Who made those? Some early advertising for Sprague Black Beauty
caps said they were plasticized paper. The main problem with these
is some sort of production problem they had. I have dissected a
number of "bumble bee" caps, these are actually Sprague Black
Beauty caps with striped value markigns. I found the windings were
distorted. I suspect this happened during the encapsulation but
don't know. Some of these caps, the higher voltage ones, were oil
impregnated. The oil was introduced through a tube which formed one
of the leads. It is common for all the oil to have leaked out due
to a lack of sealing at the solder joint between the tube and the
lead. That may have been due to excessive heat when the caps were
installed. The most notorious of the BB caps are those in the
Hammarlund SP-600, however, they were very widely used including in
a lot of -hp- gear. However, in the receiver it is common to find
cracked or split caps or even caps where part of the casing has
come off. I have not seen that in any other make of equipment.
Perhaps just a bad lot or perhaps some difference in installation.
Nonetheless, ALL paper caps become degraded with age. The usual
symptom is an increase in series resistance. Leakage, which is
another term for parallel resistance, is sometimes a problem but
not as often. I don't think any of these caps, even the real oil
filled transmitting caps, was intended to have a lifetime of over
about ten years. The life problem was known and described in some
engineering texts. It was dependent partly on voltage; the closer
the voltage to the rated voltage the shorter the life of the cap.
Likely it was some sort of electrolytic degradation of the paper.
In any case, paper caps should be replaced with modern plastic film
caps. These for the most part will last forever and generally will
improve performance perhaps beyond the original. There is a good
amount of information on the web about the relative merits of
various kinds of plastic dielectrics. Polypropylene seems to be
about the best especially for RF use.

On 11/4/2021 9:33 AM, Dave Wise wrote:

Even the later plasticized-paper “Prokar” and “DiFilm” versions
can cause trouble in some applications – they may not be leaky,
but their Dielectric Absorption and Dissipation Factor are
“through the roof”.

Dave Wise

*From:*[email protected] 
[mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of 
*greenboxmaven via groups.io
*Sent:* Thursday, November 04, 2021 6:25 AM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP200CD oscillator

ALL Sprague "Black Cat", "Black Beauty" and? color striped "Bumble 
Bee" condensers should be considered bad on sight. Unfortunately, 
they are common in older equipment of all makes and models. The
630V. polyester condensers are a fine replacement. The only
condensers that are polarized are electrolytics, poyester
condensers are not polarized.

??? Bruce Gentry, KA2IVY

On 11/4/21 8:51, Richard Merifield wrote:

??? My unit has Black Cat 0.5MFD 400v axial capacitors for C8
??? and C9. Would 630v polyester unpolarised caps be ok
??? replacements?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ken Eckert
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2021 04:28
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP Product Note 8756-3

?

Hi;

I sent an email to the vendor asking for photos of the product note which he has supplied and I have attached the photos.

I don't know what has gone south but since he has responded to me I don't mind buying them for you. It would have to be cash up front though including reshipping them to you.

I would be scanning them and posting them in the files section here along with Ko44b and BAMA.

As an alternative this fellow says he has it, perhaps he can upload it here??/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/topic/fw/71358511?p=

How many product notes are you after? He lists right now, are there others?

Thanks!

Well, it's been a while since I've done anything with fiber, but I used to subscribe to Laser Focus World, Photonics Spectra, and Fiber Optic Products Digest magazines.? I think there was also a Lightwave magazine or something.? I would look for those periodicals online.? Edmund Scientific split into Edmund (professional optics) and Scientifics Online (hobbyist stuff) some years ago. Either one might be a good source.? ?Good luck, Paul!? ? ? Jim Ford?Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: Paul Bicknell <admin@...> Date: 11/4/21 11:17 AM (GMT-08:00) To: [email protected] Subject: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Fibber optic connectors Dear all can someone please guide me to illustration of the different Fibber optic connectors?also the cheapest way to get an optical source as i want to test out an optical analyser I was donated?Regards Paul located UK