¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

  1. HP-Agilent-Keysight-Equipment
  2. Messages
Expanded Topics Messages
Date
Re: Copying 4145A floppy - a suggestion

 

Oops This:


says the format is unique.
Re: Copying 4145A floppy - a suggestion

 

Err, no on else seen this:


Also this document states the 4145A disk format is "unique"

Robert G8RPI.
Re: meaning of "DSA failure" in hp 3585A service manual

 

Just for reference, the Sony Tektronix 308 logic analyser reads HP signatures. It's small, also does logic analysis :-) and often available for a lot less than HP signature analysers.
Re: Plug in surge question

 

Don't use a Variac on modern equipment with switchmode power supplies.
They are constant power so draw more current with lower voltage.

Robert G8RPI.
Re: Found a new HP 04951-10002 PROM, free for postage to anybody that can use it

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Walter,

?

I don¡¯t need it but I can read and archive the files or send the files to anyone that needs it.? Terrible shame to let it go ¡®uninvestigated¡¯.

?

What is the ¡®chip¡¯ or the part number?

?

Happy to help if I can.

?

Joe

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of walter shawlee
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2021 2:49 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Found a new HP 04951-10002 PROM, free for postage to anybody that can use it

?

Found this in its nice HP parts bag while cleaning up another bench, this new (E)PROM is for the hp 4951 presumably (early protocol analyzer), and has a 1986 date code.? Might be too old to still be good, but then again, maybe you can read and re-burn it..Free to anyone that can make use of it, just needs US$8 for an airmail padded bag in north america.

all the best,
walter (walter2 -at- sphere .bc.ca)
sphere research corp.
https://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/stuffday.html

Found a new HP 04951-10002 PROM, free for postage to anybody that can use it

walter shawlee
 

Found this in its nice HP parts bag while cleaning up another bench, this new (E)PROM is for the hp 4951 presumably (early protocol analyzer), and has a 1986 date code.? Might be too old to still be good, but then again, maybe you can read and re-burn it..Free to anyone that can make use of it, just needs US$8 for an airmail padded bag in north america.

all the best,
walter (walter2 -at- sphere .bc.ca)
sphere research corp.
https://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/stuffday.html
Re: Plug in surge question

 

Great replies, thanks.
Re: Plug in surge question

 

Older HP equipment does not power up anything until the power switch is turned ON, with the exception of things like frequency standards and counters, which may apply power to the crystal oven and in some units the oscillator. Any line filters before the switch will of course be under power any time the plug is in a live power line socket. These line filters draw a tiny amount from the line (ignoring capacitor failures, which draw more than a ¡°tiny amount¡±).?

In fact, a couple of dozen such instruments, connected via power strips to a single outlet, can cause a problem: even though you may use no more that one or two instruments at a time, thus not exceeding current ratings, the line filters all combined can draw enough to pop a GFCI breaker.?

The surge you are speaking of can occur as large filter caps charge up. Vacuum tube instruments can also see surges as filaments warm up. HP designs are all rated to withstand such surges when new but a fifty-yo instrument may have aged components in need of replacement. It¡¯s possible to install surge protectors, which limit current in the first few seconds after turn-on. I¡¯ve done that for a couple of large vacuum tube instruments, to perhaps extend the life of the vacuum tube filaments.



On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 10:24 AM DW <wilson2115@...> wrote:
I have understood that initially when you plug in a instrument, depending on the kind instrument there might be a brief power surge. My understanding is the rectifier capacitors are being charged as one example I can think of.

I had a thought to help soften the surge. Could you initially use a variac and ramp up the voltage to act as a kind of soft start or would this cause other problems or maybe this is going overboard. I saw a video on You Tube from Mr. Carlson's lab where he devised a circuit that finds the zero crossing of the AC waveform and engage the power that way.

The reason for this question is to possibly extend the life of some HP test equipment.

--
Jeremy Nichols
6.
Re: Plug in surge question

 

The answer for startup surges is to use an Inrush Current Limiter. This is a NTC thermistor, a two leaded device, whose resistance drops drastically as the current flow through it causes it to heat up. The TDK part # B57153S0479M000, for example, drops from 4.7 ohms to 0.154 ohms at a 1.3 amp current. These are usually wired in series with the AC input, and MUST be well away from anything flammable as the do heat up.

Mouser part selector
<>

John

On 6/5/2021 10:23 AM, DW wrote:
I have understood that initially when you plug in a instrument, depending on the kind instrument there might be a brief power surge. My understanding is the rectifier capacitors are being charged as one example I can think of.
I had a thought to help soften the surge. Could you initially use a variac and ramp up the voltage to act as a kind of soft start or would this cause other problems or maybe this is going overboard. I saw a video on You Tube from Mr. Carlson's lab where he devised a circuit that finds the zero crossing of the AC waveform and engage the power that way.
The reason for this question is to possibly extend the life of some HP test equipment.
Plug in surge question

 

I have understood that initially when you plug in a instrument, depending on the kind instrument there might be a brief power surge. My understanding is the rectifier capacitors are being charged as one example I can think of.

I had a thought to help soften the surge. Could you initially use a variac and ramp up the voltage to act as a kind of soft start or would this cause other problems or maybe this is going overboard. I saw a video on You Tube from Mr. Carlson's lab where he devised a circuit that finds the zero crossing of the AC waveform and engage the power that way.

The reason for this question is to possibly extend the life of some HP test equipment.
Re: How to fix broken HP key

 

Thank you for saying that, Chuck!?? This is just the kind of thing that drives me nuts.? I get a LOT of emails,? and I don't have the time or patience to read all these just to figure out what the OP was talking about.... so I just hit DELETE.

Daun

On 6/5/2021 8:27 AM, Chuck Harris wrote:
Ok, then let's take our pair of posts as a "for instance".

Both are irrelevant to the OP's question. Both are off topic
to HPAK's charter. The OP didn't ask about posting etiquette.
And, your post has no quoted content, so it is pretty opaque as
to what it relates to. I have to use my sometimes faulty memory,
or do extensive digging through the 130,759 HPAK posts that are
in the HPAK folder in my inbox, to figure out what you are
referring to. There are two dozen posts scattered over several
days in this group of threads...

To look at things from my point of view; I use an email reader
known as Claws Mail, and I see 25 some odd clues as to what your
post is referring:
...
Re:[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment]How to fix broken HP key
Re:[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment]How to fix broken HP key
Re:[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment]How to fix broken HP key
Re:[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment]How to fix broken HP key
Re:[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment]How to fix broken HP key
...
Re:[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment]How to fix broken HP key

My email reader has only limited space to put the subjects, author,
date posted, and size, so it abbreviates some of the information.

Seeing the above, the only way I can find out what you are talking
about, beyond the mostly useless subject line, is to go back and
select each previous post and reread it... there are potentially
some odd 130 thousand posts to wade through if the threading has
been busted up by someone's broken email program... and they always
are...

Email users, which are most of us, don't get a window with all of
the previous posts lined up one after another facebook or twitter
style, like you see on the groupsio web interface.

And, we get to deal with the broken threading that some posters
add to the mix, where sub posts form completly new root posts...

Not to mention those that don't know how to start a new thread,
so they just edit the subject line and post their new stuff...

So, short of re-reading each and every post in a thread, how do
you propose we figure out exactly what the OP was asking, and
exactly what has been suggested in earlier replies... When you
(and others) refuse to quote any relevant bits of the message
to which you are replying?

Just sayin' ... walk a mile in another man's shoes, and all that.

-Chuck Harris



On Sat, 05 Jun 2021 04:10:18 -0700 "Robert G8RPI via groups.io"
<robert8rpi@...> wrote:
I don't mind thread drift, and don't like highly moderated groups
(particuarly with slow moderation where you get lots of similar
replies). What bugs me is people giving irelevent solutions or ones
that have already been made. I think the OP may have given up a I've
had no response to my offer of a replacement.

Robert G8RPI.



--
Daun E. Yeagley II, N8ASB
Re: meaning of "DSA failure" in hp 3585A service manual

 

Tnx Chris!
In fact I'm following the troubleshooting trees and I just performed a DSA (I use a type 5006 signature analyzer): it led me to a possible failure on an IC (U8 - an SN74LS00 - in the A34 board) but I replaced it and it didn't solve: I have to investigate further...
Yes the 3585A is a beast! But I'm patient...
Alberto
Re: Copying 4145A floppy - a suggestion

 

A quick search will find that there are several people that are
offering 4145A boot disk sets for under $100.

-Chuck Harris


On Fri, 04 Jun 2021 19:56:12 -0700 "Jared Cabot via groups.io"
<jaredcabot@...> wrote:
If anyone figures out how to copy a set of disks, I'm willing to
purchase a set. Unless there's a good guide on setting up a disk
drive emulator floating around somewhere?

I got a 4145A here with test fixtures that just needs a set of disks
and a fistful of triax cables to be fully functional (pending
operational tests).
Re: How to fix broken HP key

 

Ok, then let's take our pair of posts as a "for instance".

Both are irrelevant to the OP's question. Both are off topic
to HPAK's charter. The OP didn't ask about posting etiquette.
And, your post has no quoted content, so it is pretty opaque as
to what it relates to. I have to use my sometimes faulty memory,
or do extensive digging through the 130,759 HPAK posts that are
in the HPAK folder in my inbox, to figure out what you are
referring to. There are two dozen posts scattered over several
days in this group of threads...

To look at things from my point of view; I use an email reader
known as Claws Mail, and I see 25 some odd clues as to what your
post is referring:
...
Re:[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment]How to fix broken HP key
Re:[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment]How to fix broken HP key
Re:[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment]How to fix broken HP key
Re:[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment]How to fix broken HP key
Re:[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment]How to fix broken HP key
...
Re:[HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment]How to fix broken HP key

My email reader has only limited space to put the subjects, author,
date posted, and size, so it abbreviates some of the information.

Seeing the above, the only way I can find out what you are talking
about, beyond the mostly useless subject line, is to go back and
select each previous post and reread it... there are potentially
some odd 130 thousand posts to wade through if the threading has
been busted up by someone's broken email program... and they always
are...

Email users, which are most of us, don't get a window with all of
the previous posts lined up one after another facebook or twitter
style, like you see on the groupsio web interface.

And, we get to deal with the broken threading that some posters
add to the mix, where sub posts form completly new root posts...

Not to mention those that don't know how to start a new thread,
so they just edit the subject line and post their new stuff...

So, short of re-reading each and every post in a thread, how do
you propose we figure out exactly what the OP was asking, and
exactly what has been suggested in earlier replies... When you
(and others) refuse to quote any relevant bits of the message
to which you are replying?

Just sayin' ... walk a mile in another man's shoes, and all that.

-Chuck Harris



On Sat, 05 Jun 2021 04:10:18 -0700 "Robert G8RPI via groups.io"
<robert8rpi@...> wrote:
I don't mind thread drift, and don't like highly moderated groups
(particuarly with slow moderation where you get lots of similar
replies). What bugs me is people giving irelevent solutions or ones
that have already been made. I think the OP may have given up a I've
had no response to my offer of a replacement.

Robert G8RPI.
Re: How to fix broken HP key

 

I don't mind thread drift, and don't like highly moderated groups (particuarly with slow moderation where you get lots of similar replies). What bugs me is people giving irelevent solutions or ones that have already been made.
I think the OP may have given up a I've had no response to my offer of a replacement.

Robert G8RPI.
Re: A bit OT: simulators for children

 

OP, excellent to want to foster their interest.? Based on my own experience I'd put another approach into the mix:

Begin by validating their knowledge and getting them to teach you Minecraft and Redstone (the Minecraft scripting system).?
In many cases these kids don't want to hear old folks telling them that the old way was better.? And for that matter you can get further, faster, in the virtual world.? There are CPU's build in Redstone!
Make it a two way street - they can teach you virtual stuff that they know and then you can teach them physical stuff that you know - eg breadboards and solder.
Some kids will grok the coding and virtual, and others the construction and the physical.? See which way yours go.
Re: Copying 4145A floppy - a suggestion

 

On 6/4/21 10:56 PM, Jared Cabot via groups.io wrote:
If anyone figures out how to copy a set of disks, I'm willing to
purchase a set.
Unless there's a good guide on setting up a disk drive emulator floating
around somewhere?
There are lots of examples online of people using Gotek etc disk
emulators. I don't remember offhand if they were for the A or the B,
though.

I should be able to duplicate my disk, but we should probably figure
out what the deal is about hard vs. soft sectoring first, so as to not
be a potential waste of your time.

I got a 4145A here with test fixtures that just needs a set of disks and
a fistful of triax cables to be fully functional (pending operational
tests).
Honestly the triaxial cables will be the most difficult part there.

MIL-STD-1553 cables will work, but they're not the best choice. At
least they come up from time to time for less than hundreds of dollars
apiece.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Re: Copying 4145A floppy - a suggestion

 

If anyone figures out how to copy a set of disks, I'm willing to purchase a set.
Unless there's a good guide on setting up a disk drive emulator floating around somewhere?

I got a 4145A here with test fixtures that just needs a set of disks and a fistful of triax cables to be fully functional (pending operational tests).
Re: Copying 4145A floppy - a suggestion

 

On 6/4/21 5:24 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote:
Uhh, waitaminute. Is it possibly the case that there are two
different versions of the 4145A? Or maybe that it can boot from EITHER
hard- or soft-sectored media?? The latter would be most unusual. This
is the first I've heard of this; I had assumed (sorry!) that you were
just misremembering about your 4145A's boot disk being hard-sectored.
When I got my 4145A (and a floppy diskette that would boot) I talked with the
previous owner (a senior Google Robotics guru) and he told me the 5.25" FDD
was hard sectored and would not copy on anything he had. When I got the 4145A
home, I checked the diskette - and it was easily observed to be hard sectored.
Wow, ok.

I then went online and checked this site and Googled other specific 4145 sites
and found the following, seemingly definitive, information:
...

After reading the above - and observing the hard sector diskette, I didn't
even try to copy the 4145A diskette.
That's reasonable.

I subsequently used Dunfield's "imagedisk" to make a copy of my 4145B diskette
[which I attached in an email for folks on this list].
Excellent. :-)

We should probably suss this out.
Agreed!
So yes, thank you for NOT suggesting that perhaps I don't know how to
accurately identify a hard-sectored disk. ;)

I just went and looked at it a THIRD time, because I know just how
little sleep I've been getting lately. ;) Spinning the media around
inside its jacket, there is precisely ONE hole visible through the
sensor window as the media makes a complete turn. One. And yes, it's a
5.25" disk, and the box says "4145A" on the front. It has the original
beige drive with the flip-up front door; I don't recall the manufacturer
of the drive offhand.

I wonder if I have some sort of weird variant of the 4145A? (this one
is the only one I've ever owned or directly used)

I'll have to give it a shot - I picked up the zip file 4145A image - and
have a linux/DOS (dual boot) system with both low/quad density and high
density 5.25" diskettes. (This system is only used to make copies of
"weird" FDDs).
I have one of those set up as well, with an 8" drive connected too, in
an external chassis with a switchbox and one of John Wilson's FDADAP
boards to handle the TG43 signal and such.
Yup, mine has all that, too ;)
Excellent.

That system also has a 9-track tape drive, as well as 3480 and 3490 (IBM
mainframe) cartridge tape drives, and a DEC TZ85 for reading DEC TK50 and
TK70 tapes.
I still have a DEC TK50 attached to mine -
Uh, by what interface?

but gave my HP 9-track tape drive
(800/1600/6250) to the Computer Museum of America...
Sigh...black hole...

I also use my vintage MB's integrated floppy controller - which has handled
every soft sector format I've "thrown" at it. I have HD and low density 3.5"
and 5.25" and Dual 8" FDDs. So we have similar setups (especially before I
donated my tape drive). :)
Very cool.

Not familiar with "GreaseWeazle" - but it sounds similar to the KyroFlux.
Yes, a similar idea, but a newer implementation using one of the later
crop of fast microcontrollers, and its host interface is USB. All open
source, of course.

[BTW: I'm on the PDP-1 Restoration Team at the Computer History Museum (CHM)
and have on several occasions helped the Museum copy/analyze tapes/diskettes,
etc.]
Yes, I know you're on that team. My hat's off to you! :-)

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Re: Copying 4145A floppy - a suggestion

 

On Fri, 4 Jun 2021 16:03:26 -0400
"Dave McGuire" <mcguire@...> wrote:

On 6/4/21 3:29 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote:
I just went into the other room and checked again, just to be sure.
The boot disk in my 4145A, which is an HP-labeled original 4145A boot
disk, which actually boots, has ONE sector hole, therefore it is
soft-sectored.
Wow, that's excellent (and amazing - since mine is multi-sector!). In the
soft sector case, using a double density 5.25" FDD drive to create a copy
is "doable".
Uhh, waitaminute. Is it possibly the case that there are two
different versions of the 4145A? Or maybe that it can boot from EITHER
hard- or soft-sectored media?? The latter would be most unusual. This
is the first I've heard of this; I had assumed (sorry!) that you were
just misremembering about your 4145A's boot disk being hard-sectored.
When I got my 4145A (and a floppy diskette that would boot) I talked with the
previous owner (a senior Google Robotics guru) and he told me the 5.25" FDD
was hard sectored and would not copy on anything he had. When I got the 4145A
home, I checked the diskette - and it was easily observed to be hard sectored.

I then went online and checked this site and Googled other specific 4145 sites
and found the following, seemingly definitive, information:

------
Sadly a 4145A is a very different beast from a 4145B.

The 4145B is _merely_ HP LIF directory format on top of a standard 3-1/2"
*soft-sectored* floppy media using a mix of HP BASIC file formats and custom
file formats extended from HP BASIC BDAT format. In other words, quite a mess
by any current data standards but with enough effort you can duplicate or
even read the (boot) disks (at least in theory if not practice).

The 4145A is not even this. The disk itself is HP-custom **hard sectored**
5-1/4" floppy drive and media with a variant of HP LIF file system, and
similar "BDAT extended" file formats. Both of these models came out long
before the IBM PC existed and before there was a uniform standard for floppy
disks.

Most folks are too young to remember what "hard sectoring" even means (you had
to live through the 1970s PC era to know - my hand is up here). There was a
"Sony-vs-Betamax" type of technology split back then between hard-sectoring
and soft-sectoring of floppy disks. Soft sectoring won. Hard sectoring uses
actual holes in the media itself to define the circumferential sectors of the
disk (with a photocell to detect and synchronize to the hole as the media
spins). Soft sectoring uses written magnetic data patterns to define the
sectors.

All subsequent disk and tape technologies ultimately all adopted
soft-sectoring. Back in the day the choice wasn't so clear so HP stepped
into the uncertainty and picked a standard. It's called bravery. But they
simply picked the wrong standard.

This happens when you are on the leading edge of a technology. The 4145A was
the very first "digital SMU" instrument for semiconductor test of it's class,
replacing traditional analog curve tracers and GPIB-driven rack-and-stack
power-supply-and-DMM solutions. It was also one of the only products to ever
pop out of HP Labs fully implemented like Athena from Zeus' head.

You can (could) only ever use floppies bought from HP (now Agilent) even when
5-1/4 *soft-sectored* floppies were standard. Honestly I don't know if you
can even buy them still. At least in the 1990s you still could. Contact the
Agilent Technical Call Center in your country and ask for the parametric test
or PL1H specialist to get a final ruling on availability.

Otherwise you need to treat the 4145A boot floppies like gold. This is also
why it wouldn't be a bad thing is all 4145As were ground up into scrap metal
and plastic bits. Or relegated to a museum rather than a lab if this is too
harsh.
------

After reading the above - and observing the hard sector diskette, I didn't
even try to copy the 4145A diskette.

I subsequently used Dunfield's "imagedisk" to make a copy of my 4145B diskette
[which I attached in an email for folks on this list].

We should probably suss this out.
Agreed!

I'll have to give it a shot - I picked up the zip file 4145A image - and
have a linux/DOS (dual boot) system with both low/quad density and high
density 5.25" diskettes. (This system is only used to make copies of
"weird" FDDs).
I have one of those set up as well, with an 8" drive connected too, in
an external chassis with a switchbox and one of John Wilson's FDADAP
boards to handle the TG43 signal and such.
Yup, mine has all that, too ;)

That system also has a 9-track tape drive, as well as 3480 and 3490 (IBM
mainframe) cartridge tape drives, and a DEC TZ85 for reading DEC TK50 and
TK70 tapes.
I still have a DEC TK50 attached to mine - but gave my HP 9-track tape drive
(800/1600/6250) to the Computer Museum of America...

It's set up to dual-boot Linux and FreeDOS. The FreeDOS side has Mike
Brutman's excellent DOS IP stack, as well as EtherDFS talking to a UNIX
server elsewhere on the network for quickly and easily moving disk
images around from the DOS side.

The Linux side also mounts the DOS filesystem, to make short work of
automated backups and such, and doing things like bulk pattern-based
renames of hundreds of disk images at a time which would be too
cumbersome under DOS, etc.

I am using the motherboard's integrated floppy controller, which I
carefully selected to be able to handle different encodings, data rates,
etc. It's a dual Pentium Pro board, 440FX-based, if memory serves it's
a Micronics W6-LI.

This works great, and serves most of our media interchange needs at
the museum.

For *really* weird disk formats that the PC controller cannot handle,
we have a relatively new flux-transition imaging setup based on a
GreaseWeazle board.
I also use my vintage MB's integrated floppy controller - which has handled
every soft sector format I've "thrown" at it. I have HD and low density 3.5"
and 5.25" and Dual 8" FDDs. So we have similar setups (especially before I
donated my tape drive). :)

Not familiar with "GreaseWeazle" - but it sounds similar to the KyroFlux.

Cheers,
Lyle

[BTW: I'm on the PDP-1 Restoration Team at the Computer History Museum (CHM)
and have on several occasions helped the Museum copy/analyze tapes/diskettes,
etc.]

--
73 NM6Y
Bickley Consulting West


"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
35101 - 35120 of 151282