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I have a 9830A. Any interest? Contact me off list.

Dave

Dave Novotny
Applications Engineer
Agilent Technologies
719-531-4494

Tom,

thanks so much for such an informative response.
in regards to the digital what i *think* i need is to be able to view two clock pulses simultaneously to ensure their timing alignment with each other is correct. so if I understand right the 180's with 50mhz vert/horizontal plugins would be sufficient.

what is available is:
180A with 1801A, 1821A (approx $280AU)
180C with 1801A, 1821A (approx $320AU)
184C with 1805A, 1825A (approx $480AU)
all of these units come with 10008A passive voltage probes, so I think i'd need to factor in buying x10 probes?

The 184C is pushing the boundaries $ wise. The 180C looks be in the better condition cosmetically of the 180's as the plugins on the 180A don't appear to align quite right in the mainframe.

Checking the 180C service manual d/l'd from BAMA, it appears to be all discrete componentry, which is a bit reassuring if something does break.

I've been advised to replace all the tantalum caps on units of this age. Is that reasonable advice?


cheers
Paul

im looking for a hp 9100 or 9800 series calculator
working or not
peripherals too or maybe even an hp85

At 01:07 PM 22/01/07, you wrote:

I've been advised to replace all the tantalum caps on units of this
age. Is that reasonable advice?

Yeah Toms dissertation is really good, some of us might forget that
there are visitors here who are not into electronics as a long term career !

I would have thought it best to replace all electrolytics as priority
especially those in or near any heat source such as in power supply,
tantalums I would have thought were much more reliable, esp the
"solid" type tantalums, I have a few of 20 yr vintage which are still
good today !

Incidentally one can see which electrolytics to replace first if there is
any sign of leakage or even slight bulging at the top of vertical mounted
units, but given the cost of those parts these days and since you might
have unit open anyway best to replace all,

The question arises though that as the esr ratings these days are so
much better then are there any negatives in replacing old (high) esr units
not just those that get higher esr due to age but from original design
and then what to do about ESL too ?

rgds

mike
esr = equivalent series resistance
esl = equivalent series inductance

At least the old cros had less chance of suffering from alzheimers when the
eprom bits get hit by stray cosmic rays, or even flip back and forth a few
times during the years !! ;)

cheers
Paul

On 22/01/2007, at 3:15 PM, Thomas Hejl wrote:

Paul,

The 180 series of scopes will do just fine for your
basic audio applications. It is the "some digital"
that you mentioned that has me offering a suggestion
or two.
If you wish to just analyze the timing of the DAC
signals, than the 180 series will do. If you wish
however to see any relationship of that timing to
other aspects of your digital signal, than another
option might be considered.
Most scopes will give you a voltage indication, which
is vertical, in reference to a particular time period
base (or frequency), which is horizontal. These
voltages may be analog (as in a sine wave audio
signal) or digital (with a constant pulse of one,
stepped pulses or no change from base - zero). If you
wish to analyze the digital signal (a series of ones &
zeros) to a series of timed events that may be in
constant change, or a one time event that might too
quick or fast to notice, than you might get the
feeling that something is missing.
If you ever wish to more in depth analyzing of digital
signals then consider a unit that does both. Two such
are the HP1631D (primarily a Logic analyzer with a 2
channel scope included) or a HP54201D (a digitizing
scope with a logic analyzer included). These will give
you logic (digital) analyzing that can have timing and
signal inputs for comparisons. They have the ability
to stop recording waveforms (since they are digital,
they use RAM to store info) on a glitch (or digital
noise).
As for your application, the 180 series should do
well. The 181 (50MHz)& 184 (100MHz) have screens with
persistence (a type of screen hold to freeze your
display). Some of the vertical plug-ins are the 1801A
(50MHz), 1805A (100MHz), 1808A (75MHz), (which are all
2 vertical channels) and the 50MHz 1804A (which has 4
vertical input channels). Be sure to use X10
oscilloscope probes as to not load your signal under
test and therefore you will get truer readings.
Some of the pros: Other available options for the 180
series are spectrum analyzer plug-ins (to analyze band
pass and/or harmonics). They are inexpensive compared
to more modern equipment. Since they are modular, if a
plug-in does fail, purchase another and replace.
Some of the cons: The units are getting on in age. The
CRTs are going to get harder to find if needed to be
replaced. Finding a repair facility might be difficult
as well. (Some places will try to sell a newer unit
altogether.)
As what might be your first oscilloscope, you could do
worse than a 180 series unit. For a beginner who might
be on a buget, a 180 series should do you well.

Good Luck,
Tom

--- Paul Jacobson <<mailto:pj%40cutlerco.com.au>pj@...> wrote:

In complete contrast to the discussion on the nature
of scientific
knowledge, I have a couple of fairly prosaic
questions.

I'm new to the list, and to scopes in general and
I'm currently
looking at buying a 180 series scope for doing basic
audio work, with
some digital. Digital would primarily be checking
alignment of 16Mhz
clock signals in an audio DAC.

Will a 180 mainframe with 50Mhz plugins be up to
this kind of work?

Can someone give an idea of what the pro's & con's
of the 180A, 180C
and 184A mainframes are?


thanks
Paul

__________________________________________________________
______________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
<>



Yahoo! Groups Links

Regards

Mike

* GMC/VK/VL Commodore & Calais FuseRail that wont warp or melt !
* High grade VL/Skyline milspec ignition driver electronics now in development
* Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars

Paul,

The 180 series of scopes will do just fine for your
basic audio applications. It is the "some digital"
that you mentioned that has me offering a suggestion
or two.
If you wish to just analyze the timing of the DAC
signals, than the 180 series will do. If you wish
however to see any relationship of that timing to
other aspects of your digital signal, than another
option might be considered.
Most scopes will give you a voltage indication, which
is vertical, in reference to a particular time period
base (or frequency), which is horizontal. These
voltages may be analog (as in a sine wave audio
signal) or digital (with a constant pulse of one,
stepped pulses or no change from base - zero). If you
wish to analyze the digital signal (a series of ones &
zeros) to a series of timed events that may be in
constant change, or a one time event that might too
quick or fast to notice, than you might get the
feeling that something is missing.
If you ever wish to more in depth analyzing of digital
signals then consider a unit that does both. Two such
are the HP1631D (primarily a Logic analyzer with a 2
channel scope included) or a HP54201D (a digitizing
scope with a logic analyzer included). These will give
you logic (digital) analyzing that can have timing and
signal inputs for comparisons. They have the ability
to stop recording waveforms (since they are digital,
they use RAM to store info) on a glitch (or digital
noise).
As for your application, the 180 series should do
well. The 181 (50MHz)& 184 (100MHz) have screens with
persistence (a type of screen hold to freeze your
display). Some of the vertical plug-ins are the 1801A
(50MHz), 1805A (100MHz), 1808A (75MHz), (which are all
2 vertical channels) and the 50MHz 1804A (which has 4
vertical input channels). Be sure to use X10
oscilloscope probes as to not load your signal under
test and therefore you will get truer readings.
Some of the pros: Other available options for the 180
series are spectrum analyzer plug-ins (to analyze band
pass and/or harmonics). They are inexpensive compared
to more modern equipment. Since they are modular, if a
plug-in does fail, purchase another and replace.
Some of the cons: The units are getting on in age. The
CRTs are going to get harder to find if needed to be
replaced. Finding a repair facility might be difficult
as well. (Some places will try to sell a newer unit
altogether.)
As what might be your first oscilloscope, you could do
worse than a 180 series unit. For a beginner who might
be on a buget, a 180 series should do you well.

Good Luck,
Tom

--- Paul Jacobson <pj@...> wrote:

In complete contrast to the discussion on the nature
of scientific
knowledge, I have a couple of fairly prosaic
questions.

I'm new to the list, and to scopes in general and
I'm currently
looking at buying a 180 series scope for doing basic
audio work, with
some digital. Digital would primarily be checking
alignment of 16Mhz
clock signals in an audio DAC.

Will a 180 mainframe with 50Mhz plugins be up to
this kind of work?

Can someone give an idea of what the pro's & con's
of the 180A, 180C
and 184A mainframes are?


thanks
Paul

____________________________________________________________________________________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.

Thanks Mike,

I think I'd prefer to stay clear of hybrid components. They don't do much for long term maintainability. I take it the 180's are better in that respect?

If I can get the 1742A for closer to $300 I'll go and take a look. The scope is in Melbourne, so perhaps reasonably unlikely that it is your unit?

cheers
Paul

Would a 1742A be a better option than 180series then? I've got the opportunity to purchase one from a non-ebay source for $400AU without probes or manuals. Does that sound like a reasonable .au price?

cheers
Paul

At 11:29 AM 22/01/07, you wrote:

I think I'd prefer to stay clear of hybrid components. They don't do
much for long term maintainability. I take it the 180's are better in
that respect?

Not familiar with that though I vaguely remember the 180 was older than
the 1740 series, I recall there were a series called 1980 ? later on which
had even more specialised parts,

If I can get the 1742A for closer to $300 I'll go and take a look.
The scope is in Melbourne, so perhaps reasonably unlikely that it is
your unit?

Quite a few were used at Uni's as well as in private use, so sure, unlikely
to be the same one, if I found a 1742a with the multimeter in perth for
$300 I'd get one, even though I now have a pair of DSO's, there are nice
features of the 1742a like the delayed sweep and yes the triggering was
excellent, stable and very repeatable :)

cheers

mike

cheers
Paul

On 22/01/2007, at 1:33 PM, Mike wrote:

At 11:08 AM 22/01/07, you wrote:

Would a 1742A be a better option than 180series then? I've got the
opportunity to purchase one from a non-ebay source for $400AU without
probes or manuals. Does that sound like a reasonable .au price?

<cough> if its the one I sold, I'd say no as I recall the hybrid
for the
vertical deflection was on the verge of getting erratic, that was
the other
reason for selling... Other than that it was a great scope as I also
had the top multimeter option :) Which state are u in btw ? and is
the
service manual in a red 3 ring binder ? *grin*

The original probes were quite good but didnt like to be kinked, the
single nickel steel wire was prone to breaking in older cro probes and
new probes are quite cheap now. If the vertical deflection on the
cro is close to calibrated dial settings then sure its worth it, I'd
probably make an offer (if it was in perth) but closer to $300 on
basis that the hybrids are not replaceable any more etc.

Let us know the serial number if you get it :)

Rgds

Mike

cheers
Paul

On 22/01/2007, at 1:13 PM, Mike wrote:

At 10:23 AM 22/01/07, you wrote:

The 1740A & 1741A 'scopes provides 100MHz capability in a smaller
package
with better triggering.

Had a 1742A for some 15 years bought from new, though first one I
got from HP
had a bad bow in the trace, they tried to tell me it was within
spec and that +-1.0 mm
is acceptable, suffice it to say I wouldnt accept it and told the
finance co at the
time the delivery was being rejected but HP had already rang the
finance co to report
it was ok without my signature !! I was really angry and
threatened to publish a
photo of the trace in the local paper. Within 4 hours got a ph call
from HP
apologising profusely and another unit with perfect straight line
trace turned up
about 2 weeks later from USA with freight at their expense,
<chuckle>

Dont think this was indicative of HP - more of the local management
and fact
that often in Australia we get the dregs of stuff made in Singapore
under HP's
trade name which doesnt pass Singapore tests, so its not shipped to
USA but
dumped here, happens more often than it should from other stories I
have
heard.

After that the 1742a performed almost flawlessly for 15 years and
sold it locally to
a "cash converters' store for AUD$500 after it was repaired, still
see some models
on ebay in Oz from time to time,

And yes I kept the service manual with the equipment and used it
twice to
look at a burned out resistor on the input stage as I recall and
rewind/swap
a transformer for the grid supply,

Cheers

Regards

Mike

* GMC/VK/VL Commodore & Calais FuseRail that wont warp or melt !
* High grade VL/Skyline milspec ignition driver electronics now in
development
* Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
<>






Yahoo! Groups Links

Regards

Mike

* GMC/VK/VL Commodore & Calais FuseRail that wont warp or melt !
* High grade VL/Skyline milspec ignition driver electronics now in development
* Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars

At 11:08 AM 22/01/07, you wrote:

Would a 1742A be a better option than 180series then? I've got the
opportunity to purchase one from a non-ebay source for $400AU without
probes or manuals. Does that sound like a reasonable .au price?

<cough> if its the one I sold, I'd say no as I recall the hybrid for the
vertical deflection was on the verge of getting erratic, that was the other
reason for selling... Other than that it was a great scope as I also
had the top multimeter option :) Which state are u in btw ? and is the
service manual in a red 3 ring binder ? *grin*

The original probes were quite good but didnt like to be kinked, the
single nickel steel wire was prone to breaking in older cro probes and
new probes are quite cheap now. If the vertical deflection on the
cro is close to calibrated dial settings then sure its worth it, I'd
probably make an offer (if it was in perth) but closer to $300 on
basis that the hybrids are not replaceable any more etc.

Let us know the serial number if you get it :)

Rgds

Mike

cheers
Paul

On 22/01/2007, at 1:13 PM, Mike wrote:

At 10:23 AM 22/01/07, you wrote:

The 1740A & 1741A 'scopes provides 100MHz capability in a smaller
package
with better triggering.

Had a 1742A for some 15 years bought from new, though first one I
got from HP
had a bad bow in the trace, they tried to tell me it was within
spec and that +-1.0 mm
is acceptable, suffice it to say I wouldnt accept it and told the
finance co at the
time the delivery was being rejected but HP had already rang the
finance co to report
it was ok without my signature !! I was really angry and
threatened to publish a
photo of the trace in the local paper. Within 4 hours got a ph call
from HP
apologising profusely and another unit with perfect straight line
trace turned up
about 2 weeks later from USA with freight at their expense,
<chuckle>

Dont think this was indicative of HP - more of the local management
and fact
that often in Australia we get the dregs of stuff made in Singapore
under HP's
trade name which doesnt pass Singapore tests, so its not shipped to
USA but
dumped here, happens more often than it should from other stories I
have
heard.

After that the 1742a performed almost flawlessly for 15 years and
sold it locally to
a "cash converters' store for AUD$500 after it was repaired, still
see some models
on ebay in Oz from time to time,

And yes I kept the service manual with the equipment and used it
twice to
look at a burned out resistor on the input stage as I recall and
rewind/swap
a transformer for the grid supply,

Cheers

Regards

Mike

* GMC/VK/VL Commodore & Calais FuseRail that wont warp or melt !
* High grade VL/Skyline milspec ignition driver electronics now in development
* Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars

HP 180C replaced the 180A (& I think the CRT div went up slightly, as well).

HP184A is a faster writing replacemnet for the 181A, still variable persistence w/fast write mode.

The 180 series of oscilloscopes work fine, but they are a bit large & heavy for what they do.
Plug-in capability is definitely a double-edged sword; I've learned to avoid connectors whenever I can.

The 1740A & 1741A 'scopes provides 100MHz capability in a smaller package with better triggering.
They've been selling quite cheaply on eBay (US).

Manuals should be available readily for any of these.

Regards,
Pete Rawson

At 10:23 AM 22/01/07, you wrote:

The 1740A & 1741A 'scopes provides 100MHz capability in a smaller package
with better triggering.

Had a 1742A for some 15 years bought from new, though first one I got from HP
had a bad bow in the trace, they tried to tell me it was within spec and that +-1.0 mm
is acceptable, suffice it to say I wouldnt accept it and told the finance co at the
time the delivery was being rejected but HP had already rang the finance co to report
it was ok without my signature !! I was really angry and threatened to publish a
photo of the trace in the local paper. Within 4 hours got a ph call from HP
apologising profusely and another unit with perfect straight line trace turned up
about 2 weeks later from USA with freight at their expense, <chuckle>

Dont think this was indicative of HP - more of the local management and fact
that often in Australia we get the dregs of stuff made in Singapore under HP's
trade name which doesnt pass Singapore tests, so its not shipped to USA but
dumped here, happens more often than it should from other stories I have
heard.

After that the 1742a performed almost flawlessly for 15 years and sold it locally to
a "cash converters' store for AUD$500 after it was repaired, still see some models
on ebay in Oz from time to time,

And yes I kept the service manual with the equipment and used it twice to
look at a burned out resistor on the input stage as I recall and rewind/swap
a transformer for the grid supply,

Cheers


Mike Massen
Network Power Systems
Lab +61 (0) 8 9444 8961
Mb +61 (0) 438 048961
Perth, Western Australia
* USA GMC, Opel and Australian VL/VK Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt, New model V 2.0
with engine bay illumination timer and relay holder options !
* RB30 Skyline/Nissan/VL Upgraded ignition driver now in long term economy trials
* Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
* Industrial grade PolyVinyliDeneChloride (PVDC Copolymer) in bulk, the best
oxygen and water protective barrier you can find for circuit boards.
* Special Equipment for sale: 60KVA 3-phase UPS with large battery cabinet - $12,000
Web site under construction, Ebay and Oztion Auctions

Its not as simple as agreeing or not as a lot of the so called first principles
are self referential or wound into self referential extensions and its nigh on
impossible to avoid that, well as far as I know it hasnt yet been done.

Godel was right...

ie. Defining something doesnt make it true and especially so in the absence
of an absolute reference, especially a non anthropic one ;)

cheers

mike


At 07:05 AM 22/01/07, you wrote:

Things like Euclids Postulates

I agree with that - the first four of Euclid's five postulates are truly
self evident truths - definintion of a point, definition of a straight line
etc. However Euclid's fifth, based on the parallelism of lines, has a
fundametal problem that was finally resolved by Hilbert using hyperbolic
geometry.

Kepler's Laws, Newton's
Laws

Only as far as the accuracy set by general relativity, and even that is now
under scrutiny in the quest for a grand unified theory.

Ohm's Law

Not a done deal at the quantum level - but that remains to be established.

Kirchoff's Voltage and Current Laws

Which are really a statement of the First Law of Thermodynamics
(conservation of energy), which is pretty much established as a fundamental
law.

Maxwell's Equations

Which again works, and can be either used with a quantised field, or adapted
into general relativity. But note the above comment on grand unified
theory.

So I only agree in part with the list.

Craig

Regards

Mike

* GMC/VK/VL Commodore & Calais FuseRail that wont warp or melt !
* High grade VL/Skyline milspec ignition driver electronics now in development
* Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars

Well the last tek 465 that went on ebay here in Australia sold for the equivalent on $450US. That's out on my price range. The HP's are within my budget.
And lest anyone suggest shipping a Tek from the US - the approx $300US courier charges are a bit of a show stopper, and I'm not inclined to trust regular parcel post.

cheers
Paul

If you want a Spectrum Analyzer, get an HP.
If you want an oscilloscope, get a Tektronix.

73, Dick, W1KSZ

Hello,

What is Option HO3 on a 180A scope?

Thank you,

Bruce WA8TNC

In complete contrast to the discussion on the nature of scientific knowledge, I have a couple of fairly prosaic questions.

I'm new to the list, and to scopes in general and I'm currently looking at buying a 180 series scope for doing basic audio work, with some digital. Digital would primarily be checking alignment of 16Mhz clock signals in an audio DAC.

Will a 180 mainframe with 50Mhz plugins be up to this kind of work?

Can someone give an idea of what the pro's & con's of the 180A, 180C and 184A mainframes are?


thanks
Paul

Things like Euclids Postulates

I agree with that - the first four of Euclid's five postulates are truly
self evident truths - definintion of a point, definition of a straight line
etc. However Euclid's fifth, based on the parallelism of lines, has a
fundametal problem that was finally resolved by Hilbert using hyperbolic
geometry.

Kepler's Laws, Newton's
Laws

Only as far as the accuracy set by general relativity, and even that is now
under scrutiny in the quest for a grand unified theory.

Ohm's Law

Not a done deal at the quantum level - but that remains to be established.

Kirchoff's Voltage and Current Laws

Which are really a statement of the First Law of Thermodynamics
(conservation of energy), which is pretty much established as a fundamental
law.

Maxwell's Equations

Which again works, and can be either used with a quantised field, or adapted
into general relativity. But note the above comment on grand unified
theory.

So I only agree in part with the list.

Craig

In my experience, the HP-180 scopes are still an excellent value. They don't
use impossible-to-obtain parts; are well designed and well built. The actual
bandwidth of the 180 mainframe is 100 MHz, and with the correct plug-ins
will make that number. Documentation is easy to find also.
Some Tektronix scopes still bring too high a price, and it may be difficult
to obtain replacement parts, because they are custom-made by TEK.

50 MHz probably is OK for your application. You also might consider the HP
1740 series of scopes.You also might look at the Philips/Fluke scopes. Whatever
you get, make sure that you can get the operating and service information.

I currently have a 200 MHz 4 channel Philips/Fluke, a 400 MHz Tektronix and
a portable Tektronix 100 MHz portable and a couple of HP scopes. Each has it
best points.

Stuart K6YAZ
Los Angeles, CA

John,

Thanks. That is the best explanation I have seen so far!

Bob

J Forster <jfor@...> wrote:
Robert Hagenbach <rc_hagenbach@...> wrote:

"terms of equations from first principles"

Could someone explain to me what "first principals" are?

Bob Hagenbach
Largo, Fl

Basic truths.. sort of.

Things like Euclids Postulates; Kepler's Laws, Newton's Laws; Ohm's Law
Kirchoff's Voltage and Current Laws, Maxwell's Equations, among others.

Basic truths that all subsequent work is based on.that are so well
accepted that no further proof is required. The are assumed, tested, and
essentially KNOWN to be true.

-John