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BUT..................
As an engineer and also a programmer, I love Fortran, PL/I, C, and even Quick Basic.
But I despise Java, Prolog, Lisp
?
What are your programming likes and dislikes ?
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Find the line BSPFCOOK IN USRLOGON and /* comment */ it.
Proper job :-)
Roops
BUT..................
As an engineer and also a programmer, I love Fortran, PL/I, C, and even Quick Basic.
But I despise Java, Prolog, Lisp
?
What are your programming likes and dislikes ?
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Basic Assembler Language Rulez! Then C, PHP, SQL, ... and a bunch of others.
I actually wrote a text-processing program (read: cryptology) in FORTRAN. COBOL put bread on the table.
Find the line BSPFCOOK IN USRLOGON and /* comment */ it.
Proper job :-)
Roops
BUT..................
As an engineer and also a programmer, I love Fortran, PL/I, C, and even Quick Basic.
But I despise Java, Prolog, Lisp
?
What are your programming likes and dislikes ?
-- ?GnuPG/PGP key: 0xDD4276BA
?+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ?| 3.14159 26535 89793 23846 26433 83279 50288 41971 69399 37510 ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 58209 74944[59230 78164]06286 20899 86280 +----------------------------------| ?| ? 34825 34211 70679*82148 08651 32823 06647 | ? ?May the spirit ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 09384 46095 50582 23172 53594 08128 48111 ?| ? ? ?of ¦Ð?spread ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 74502 84102 70193 85211 05559 64462 29489 | ? ?around the world. ? ? ? ? | ?| ? 54930 38196 44288 10975 66593 34461 28475 | ? ? ?PI VOBISCUM! ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 38196 44288 10975 66593 34461 28475 64823 +---------------------------------| ?| ? 37867 83165 27120 19091 45648 56692 34603 48610 45432 6648... ? ? ? ? | ?+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Unfortunately, I have to ?disagree with this statement. During my application programming days, i was tasked with writing an application to read an IMS database and plot the facilities on the CALCOMP plotter attached to the mainframe.
The CALCOMP libraries were only available in FORTRAN. So, the main program was written in FORTRAN.
I wrote a COBOL subroutine to read the IMS database for the facilities (poles, transformers, capacitors, and circuit numbers).?
The inputs to the program were the corner square coordinates of the grid corner, and the scale. Greater scale = more facilities.
The app was a smash hit for the ?engineering folks.?
Joe
BUT..................
As an engineer and also a programmer, I love Fortran, PL/I, C, and even Quick Basic.
But I despise Java, Prolog, Lisp
?
What are your programming likes and dislikes ?
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On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 06:21:22AM -0800, carlos feldman wrote: What are your programming likes and dislikes ? In junior high and high school I learned BASIC, back when spaghetti code was the norm and GOTO and GOSUB statements took line numbers as arguments. I haven't touched BASIC since. Next I learned Pascal and dBase. Since then I've dabbled with a lot of languages - Perl, PHP, Ruby, C, Python, LISP, Rust, and probably several others I'm forgetting. With the help of Hercules and MVS 3.8J I did start to learn the basics of assembler, but have forgotten most of it. At work I did a little COBOL, Gener/OL, and EasyTrieve programming back in the mainframe days. These days since we've migrated to a descendent of the AS/400, the little programming I've done at work has been in CL and free-format RPG. I'm still searching for a programming language I truly love. The languages I keep turning to and have written the most code in are Perl and Clipper. -- Kevin Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.
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Assembler is the only language I ever learned and loved. ? My university education was a systems programming course. 1st semester was S/370 assembler basics, 2nd semester was writing macros and re-entrant code, for the third and fourth semester our 'textbooks' were the IBM manuals OS/VS2 MVS Supervisor Services and Macro Instructions and OS/VS2 MVS Data Management Macro Instructions. I quit school after 2 years because the job offers were incredible and I still had all my electives from 1st and 2nd year to do. ? Top Secret Security was 120,000 lines of assembler when I sold it in 1985, the ISPF I write today as a hobby is now at 70,000. ? When it comes to IBM system software, using assembler I can write software faster than anybody in any language. ? Wally ? ?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of carlos feldman Sent: Friday, November 27, 2020 04:21 PM To: [email protected]Subject: [H390-MVS] Real programmers don't write in FORTRAN. FORTRAN is for pipe stress freaks and crystallography weenies. SAYS MY Tk4- COOKIE JAR ? BUT.................. As an engineer and also a programmer, I love Fortran, PL/I, C, and even Quick Basic. But I despise Java, Prolog, Lisp ? What are your programming likes and dislikes ?
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The only language common to all programmers is profanity.
Unfortunately, I have to ?disagree with this statement. During my application programming days, i was tasked with writing an application to read an IMS database and plot the facilities on the CALCOMP plotter attached to the mainframe.
The CALCOMP libraries were only available in FORTRAN. So, the main program was written in FORTRAN.
I wrote a COBOL subroutine to read the IMS database for the facilities (poles, transformers, capacitors, and circuit numbers).?
The inputs to the program were the corner square coordinates of the grid corner, and the scale. Greater scale = more facilities.
The app was a smash hit for the ?engineering folks.?
Joe
BUT..................
As an engineer and also a programmer, I love Fortran, PL/I, C, and even Quick Basic.
But I despise Java, Prolog, Lisp
?
What are your programming likes and dislikes ?
-- ?GnuPG/PGP key: 0xDD4276BA
?+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ?| 3.14159 26535 89793 23846 26433 83279 50288 41971 69399 37510 ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 58209 74944[59230 78164]06286 20899 86280 +----------------------------------| ?| ? 34825 34211 70679*82148 08651 32823 06647 | ? ?May the spirit ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 09384 46095 50582 23172 53594 08128 48111 ?| ? ? ?of ¦Ð?spread ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 74502 84102 70193 85211 05559 64462 29489 | ? ?around the world. ? ? ? ? | ?| ? 54930 38196 44288 10975 66593 34461 28475 | ? ? ?PI VOBISCUM! ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 38196 44288 10975 66593 34461 28475 64823 +---------------------------------| ?| ? 37867 83165 27120 19091 45648 56692 34603 48610 45432 6648... ? ? ? ? | ?+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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My favorite languages are PL/X and REXX (nearly 20 years in IBM DB2 for z/OS Development). I have written a lot of programs in PL/I and in Assembler. A fair amount in C. There was one large programming project in Pascal on a VAX, a product in IBM/PC Pascal, and many Turbo Pascal programs for fun. Fortran and COBOL in college but none in the last 45+ years. Intrigued by LISP but never developed any sky -? especially amused when I learned it is an acronym for Lost of Infuriating Single Parenthesis.
Jim
On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:36 AM Theodore M Rolle Jr < stercor@...> wrote: The only language common to all programmers is profanity.
Unfortunately, I have to ?disagree with this statement. During my application programming days, i was tasked with writing an application to read an IMS database and plot the facilities on the CALCOMP plotter attached to the mainframe.
The CALCOMP libraries were only available in FORTRAN. So, the main program was written in FORTRAN.
I wrote a COBOL subroutine to read the IMS database for the facilities (poles, transformers, capacitors, and circuit numbers).?
The inputs to the program were the corner square coordinates of the grid corner, and the scale. Greater scale = more facilities.
The app was a smash hit for the ?engineering folks.?
Joe
BUT..................
As an engineer and also a programmer, I love Fortran, PL/I, C, and even Quick Basic.
But I despise Java, Prolog, Lisp
?
What are your programming likes and dislikes ?
--
?GnuPG/PGP key: 0xDD4276BA
?+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ?| 3.14159 26535 89793 23846 26433 83279 50288 41971 69399 37510 ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 58209 74944[59230 78164]06286 20899 86280 +----------------------------------| ?| ? 34825 34211 70679*82148 08651 32823 06647 | ? ?May the spirit ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 09384 46095 50582 23172 53594 08128 48111 ?| ? ? ?of ¦Ð?spread ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 74502 84102 70193 85211 05559 64462 29489 | ? ?around the world. ? ? ? ? | ?| ? 54930 38196 44288 10975 66593 34461 28475 | ? ? ?PI VOBISCUM! ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 38196 44288 10975 66593 34461 28475 64823 +---------------------------------| ?| ? 37867 83165 27120 19091 45648 56692 34603 48610 45432 6648... ? ? ? ? | ?+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Theodore M Rolle Jr wrote: The only language common to all programmers is profanity. (LOL!) Fuckin' ay! ;-) -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@...
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Long ago in a computer professional magazine I read an article entitled, "If Programming Languages Were Automobiles." Here is what I remember: Assembly Language: A Formula I race car. Difficult to drive and expensive to maintain. Cobol: A delivery truck. Bulky and ugly, but it does the work. (Fortran IV was in there: sorry) PL/I: A Cadillac convertible with spoked wheels, fishtails and a two-tone paint job. BASIC: A second-hand Rambler with patched upholstery. Your father bought it for you to learn how to drive. You traded it in later for a better car. Lisp: An electric car (not the modern kind). Slow but simple. C: A black Firebird, the macho car with power steering, power brakes, and state-of the-art seat belts. Forth: A go-cart. Ada: An Army-green Jeep with no seat belts. No options available. Pascal: A Volkswagen beetle. Small but sturdy. Was once popular with intellectuals. Algol-60: An Austin Mini. Boy, that's a small car. (My own suggestion) SAS: A locomotive train. Each car performs a different task.
On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 11:28 AM Wally Mclaughlin <wally@...> wrote:
Assembler is the only language I ever learned and loved. ? My university education was a systems programming course. 1st semester was S/370 assembler basics, 2nd semester was writing macros and re-entrant code, for the third and fourth semester our 'textbooks' were the IBM manuals OS/VS2 MVS Supervisor Services and Macro Instructions and OS/VS2 MVS Data Management Macro Instructions. I quit school after 2 years because the job offers were incredible and I still had all my electives from 1st and 2nd year to do. ? Top Secret Security was 120,000 lines of assembler when I sold it in 1985, the ISPF I write today as a hobby is now at 70,000. ? When it comes to IBM system software, using assembler I can write software faster than anybody in any language. ? Wally ? ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of carlos feldman
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2020 04:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [H390-MVS] Real programmers don't write in FORTRAN. FORTRAN is for pipe stress freaks and crystallography weenies. SAYS MY Tk4- COOKIE JAR ? BUT.................. As an engineer and also a programmer, I love Fortran, PL/I, C, and even Quick Basic. But I despise Java, Prolog, Lisp ? What are your programming likes and dislikes ?
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+1, that is a true statement.? Cussing the machine is the one thing we programmers all have in common. ? But in response to the original question, I think there is no need for a ¡°favorite¡± language.? In my experience I have written in Fortran (II and IV), COBOL, 360/370/390/z Assembler, PL/1, Rexx, Pascal, SQL, (g)awk, miller (a scripting language), Snobol, Icon (a procedural successor to Snobol), *ix shell scripting, C, Metal C, python, HTML, and even a smidgeon of perl, and that¡¯s not counting the large variety of utility ¡°languages¡± you need to get the rest of the job done (JCL, IDCAMS, IEBDG, Comparex, Insync Compare, CA FileMaster, CMD.EXE scripting, Powershell, etc.). ? I think the only major language I never had the opportunity or need to learn was Basic in any of its incarnations. ? My ¡°favorite¡± language tends to be the one that gets the task done today, and there is frequently a different language suited to each specific task in each different time period.? Use whatever language is available that works for you, and never stop learning new things. ? Peter ?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Theodore M Rolle Jr Sent: Friday, November 27, 2020 12:36 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [H390-MVS] Real programmers don't write in FORTRAN. FORTRAN is for pipe stress freaks and crystallography weenies. SAYS MY Tk4- COOKIE JAR ? The only language common to all programmers is profanity. ? Unfortunately, I have to ?disagree with this statement. During my application programming days, i was tasked with writing an application to read an IMS database and plot the facilities on the CALCOMP plotter attached to the mainframe. The CALCOMP libraries were only available in FORTRAN. So, the main program was written in FORTRAN. I wrote a COBOL subroutine to read the IMS database for the facilities (poles, transformers, capacitors, and circuit numbers).? The inputs to the program were the corner square coordinates of the grid corner, and the scale. Greater scale = more facilities. The app was a smash hit for the ?engineering folks.? ? BUT.................. As an engineer and also a programmer, I love Fortran, PL/I, C, and even Quick Basic. But I despise Java, Prolog, Lisp ? What are your programming likes and dislikes ?
-- ?GnuPG/PGP key: 0xDD4276BA ?+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ?| 3.14159 26535 89793 23846 26433 83279 50288 41971 69399 37510 ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 58209 74944[59230 78164]06286 20899 86280 +----------------------------------| ?| ? 34825 34211 70679*82148 08651 32823 06647 | ? ?May the spirit ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 09384 46095 50582 23172 53594 08128 48111 ?| ? ? ?of ¦Ð?spread ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 74502 84102 70193 85211 05559 64462 29489 | ? ?around the world. ? ? ? ? | ?| ? 54930 38196 44288 10975 66593 34461 28475 | ? ? ?PI VOBISCUM! ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 38196 44288 10975 66593 34461 28475 64823 +---------------------------------| ?| ? 37867 83165 27120 19091 45648 56692 34603 48610 45432 6648... ? ? ? ? | ?+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Those are great one¡¯s.
I enjoyed; ?REXX, Blankenship Basic, ADA, an old Army Program Sircus and COBOL.
George
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On Nov 27, 2020, at 08:21, carlos feldman <carlfelster@...> wrote:
? BUT..................
As an engineer and also a programmer, I love Fortran, PL/I, C, and even Quick Basic.
But I despise Java, Prolog, Lisp
?
What are your programming likes and dislikes ?
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In all these missives regarding programming languages used et al, no one has mentioned
1. RPG, RPG II (and later)? from IBM 1401 and newer systems.
2. Macro assembler??????? from IBM 1401, 7094, ICL 1501 and 1900's
Now back in the day at one of my first jobs in London as a programmer around 1963 (1401) I had to use machine code (if nothing else then keying in the bootstrap code to start the machine) then after a few months using Assembler then Macro Assembler and then followed by Cobol.?? Note I did do operating on a 1401 in 61 at weekends to earn pin money etc - save having to do a paper round.
Next site / job was ICL 1900's which also had Burroughs and Honeywell along with a lot of UR's (Unit Record systems) and yes serious programming here using short lengths of single wire cable with a baby plug at each end connected to a wide plug board that was the programming method. If you exceeded 10 layers of wire you knew the program was too complex and had to break it down some more.
This cabling was used in 1401 and 360 back boards (instead of modern circuit boards).
Now to help move away from UR systems we used RPG and initially used a UR that had a card reader and punch connected to one of the mainframes acting as input.
Now using RPG the processing could get more complex i.e., beyond read card, basic process, punch output card and create a report.
The Macro assembler was used for the stuff that RPG (and Cobol) could not yet handle and once practised could churn out code very quickly.
Or was it, when I was young :)
Vincent
still only 73 and started young..
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On 27/11/2020 18:40, pjfarley3 wrote:
+1, that is a true statement.? Cussing the machine is the one thing we programmers all have in common.
But in response to the original question, I think there is no need for a ¡°favorite¡± language.? In my experience I have written in Fortran (II and IV), COBOL, 360/370/390/z Assembler, PL/1, Rexx, Pascal, SQL, (g)awk, miller (a scripting language), Snobol, Icon (a procedural successor to Snobol), *ix shell scripting, C, Metal C, python, HTML, and even a smidgeon of perl, and that¡¯s not counting the large variety of utility ¡°languages¡± you need to get the rest of the job done (JCL, IDCAMS, IEBDG, Comparex, Insync Compare, CA FileMaster, CMD.EXE scripting, Powershell, etc.).
I think the only major language I never had the opportunity or need to learn was Basic in any of its incarnations.
My ¡°favorite¡± language tends to be the one that gets the task done today, and there is frequently a different language suited to each specific task in each different time period.? Use whatever language is available that works for you, and never stop learning new things.
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Hi
'(peace)
--
Marco Antoniotti
Somewhere over the rainbow
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On 2020-11-27 14:21, carlos feldman wrote: BUT..................
As an engineer and also a programmer, I love Fortran, PL/I, C, and even Quick Basic.
But I despise Java, Prolog, Lisp
What are your programming likes and dislikes ? Started, in 1985, with Algol 60 and the keystroke code to program the Texas Instruments TI-59 at university, dabbled a tiny bit with with Basic, and followed that with Turbo Pascal (2.00, 3.01a, 6.00 & 7.01) at home, and started with PL/I in 1985, and still use it 35 years later. Added REXX on the big iron in the early 1990'ies. In the 19I90'ies I did a little work for Texas Instruments, being about the only person outside TI that could program their TI-95 programmable calculator in TMS 7000 assembler, after having found out how to get into the (weakly) protected system ROMs, and having disassembled the entire "OS". Returned to (Virtual) Pascal in about 2008, but nowadays only use it to hack the resulting assembler output to pieces, even going as far as adding the x86 instructions that it doesn't support as long "db" sequences, kind of like the old TP 2/3 "inline" statement. ;) (It's been abandonware since 2004 and the builtin assembler only supports CPUs up to Pentium) And I've also started using (Regina) REXX on the PC, it's lack of EXECIO was always a big drawback, but the ANSI "with output stem whatever." seems to cater for most of my (mundane) needs. And I "wrote" about half-a-dozen of E15 exits in assembler for Y2K, to handle some of the more exotic/signalling six-character dates. Absolutely hate the bloatware that produced nowadays, RECV390 by Edgar Hofmann extracts files from XMIT'ed PDS'es in 39K, a version in Java by one "dewittlknapp" comes comes in a 52.3 Mb download, and another one in Java ("only" 210kb) needs an additional 200Mb of OpenJDK stuff. Pass me a bucket... Robert -- Robert AH Prins robert.ah.prins(a)gmail.com The hitchhiking grandfather @ Some useful(?) REXX @
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Similar to Wally¡¯s story, for me it is all about Assembler, all of the time.? I¡¯ve been writing IBM Assembler code since 1978.? It comes so naturally to me that code flies out of the keyboard like it was my native speaking language.? When I want to work on something, using a different language is never considered.
This comes at a price of course; I¡¯ve sometimes had to engage with most of the other common languages from time to time and I am not strong in any of them.
A recent post said Assembler was like a Formula-1 race car and expensive to maintain.? It certainly is a race car but it doesn¡¯t necessarily have to be expensive to maintain.? I think it depends more on what you put into it, as far as clean clear code, lots of relevant comments, and some white space to make it less dense; these things all make it much easier to maintain.? It took me about the first 10 years of my career to learn this though.? It wasn¡¯t until I changed jobs and had to start maintaining Assembler code written by others that I saw how difficult it could be to work your way through it.? But it taught important lessons for me in how to write clearer and more maintainable code.
Things like ¡°structured assembler¡± (a set of macros to attempt to give Assembler code a hint of the structured code of some other languages), as well as use of oddities like equated register names (e.g., LINKREG, BALREG, WORKREG instead the plain and clear R15, R14, R5, etc.), are abominations to me.? These things can slow down understanding and maintenance to a crawl, at least for me.? The main problem with these things is that they partly hide what¡¯s under the covers. In Assembler, you need to see what is under the covers to really understand what the code is doing.
All of the stuff I¡¯ve released here over the years, like NJE38 (NJE for MVS 3.8) and over on the VM/370 side, the DIAGNOSE 58 Full Screen Support and the DIAGNOSE 7C Logical Device Facility, and more, were all written in 100% Assembler.
Regards,
Bob
?
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Being a microcontroller programmer, I'm very close to assembly, and it's bit byte and interrupts management, but I prefer using C, which in turn is very close to assembly, if you use properly. Of course you have to use it knowing what a cpu does. Unlike IBM, where compiled languages are a set of system routine calls, even for the simplest task, in microcontroller most of the instructions are translated into assembly, which makes very easy to debug, and with compact code. C++ is other breed of beast, and can be sometimes confusing in the generated code. Anyways since the very early days IBM had very good and easy to use input and output routines, that can be interfaced with very few assembly lines. Today's microcontrollers, also have easy to use hardware interfaces, you can write on a few bytes a serial port driver?
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Started in 1971 with writing COBOL.
I was a few years an application programmer, but systems programming had my attention.
So I became a systems programmer. My first job was replace OS/VS2 SVS by MVS.
In my many years as a systems programmer I learn Assembler. I quit the systems programming
department in 2002 with installing z/OS.
In 2002 I started my career as a storage administrator in the Open systems world.
I became familiar with Windows, AIX, Sun Solaris and Linux.
Storage boxes like EMC, HDS, HP and NetApp are pretty familiar to me.
So I write PHP, Cobol, HTML, CSS, Python, Shell scripts and still Assembler.
After my retirement 2 years ago, I restarted the development of RPF.
Assembler is like riding a bike. You new unlearn Assembler.
Cheers,
Rob
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Apart from some playing at Kingston Polytechnic after school, I started with PL/1 and assembly under VM/SP,? then assembly, 3270 datastreams, PL/1, VSAM, IMS, and all the usual under MVS, and then MVS systems programming.
Bizarrely, I did a lot of work programming ISPF from assembly (some of it authorised, for good measure).
I still find myself thinking of the underlying assembly, even when I'm using a compiled language :-)
Roops
Started in 1971 with writing COBOL.
I was a few years an application programmer, but systems programming had my attention.
So I became a systems programmer. My first job was replace OS/VS2 SVS by MVS.
In my many years as a systems programmer I learn Assembler. I quit the systems programming
department in 2002 with installing z/OS.
In 2002 I started my career as a storage administrator in the Open systems world.
I became familiar with Windows, AIX, Sun Solaris and Linux.
Storage boxes like EMC, HDS, HP and NetApp are pretty familiar to me.
So I write PHP, Cobol, HTML, CSS, Python, Shell scripts and still Assembler.
After my retirement 2 years ago, I restarted the development of RPF.
Assembler is like riding a bike. You new unlearn Assembler.
Cheers,
Rob
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I had many favorites over the years.? Fortran IV was the first.? That then shifted for SPS (IBM 1620 assembler) and then to BAL (S/360).? PL/I was lurking in the background before it finally emerged to become the "bill payer".? I never liked COBOL but it was a "bill payer".? Hate RPG.? Today my favorite is Visual Studio (Basic).? I am dabling with Netbeans (Java) but I don't think it is all that great.
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carlos feldman
Theodore M Rolle Jr
Jim Ruddy
George T Alger Jr.
Marco Antoniotti
Robert Prins
Rob Prins