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I am not sure which emulator you are using ¨C however, I am using REAL IBM Personal Communications (I have several different versions ¨C all work the same) and
this works FINE.
?
I would suggest you might want to try a different emulator ¨C
?
Remember, it is only recently that anything larger than a M5 3270 was allowed ¨C
M2 ¨C 24X80
M3 ¨C 32X80
²Ñ4¡ª43³Ý80
²Ñ5¡ª27³æ132
M??? 62X160
?
I just tried each on my system here ¨C all work exactly as would be expected.?
?
-J-
?
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Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Jeffrey Melton via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 4:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Marketing Mail] Re: [H390-MVS] Newbie question about REVIEW/RPF etc
?
Hey Rob,
I'm interested in learning more about RPF.? However, I'm using it in the latest TK4- environment, I notice that it isn't playing nice with the wx3270 emulator when setting up a terminal of 43 rows and 150 columns.? See the attached screen shot.? I read on the
manual linked above that RPF was designed for larger terminals, however.? So is there something I need to do to get RPF to work well with my extended terminal?
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Hi Jeff,
I know now that the problem is likely because of the version of the RPF originally in v8 of TK4- is very old, and probably not the emulator... I'm going to install latest version of RPF on my TK4- tonight and see if the display works well.
But for the record, the emulator I'm using is wx3270, which is the windows flavor of the same family as the linux x3270 emulator.? Wiki page is here...
Granted, it's alpha software, but it has the classic 3270 font built in, the font automatically scales if I maximize the screen size, it allows for customized screen sizes beyond M2-M5, and I've found it to be pretty decent so far.? Better than the wc3270 at any rate...? I also like Tom Brennan's Vista 3270 version 2 which allows for scalable screen size/custom fonts as well, but Tom earlier advised me that his V2 is dead-end.? I really want to use a free/reasonably priced emulator that can cope well with screens larger than 80X24 if at all possible (putty/mintty have spoiled me that way!).? Just curious, how much does IBM Personal Communications cost?
-Jeff
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On 20/11/2020 20:28, Jeffrey Melton via groups.io wrote: Hi Jeff,
I know now that the problem is likely because of the version of the RPF originally in v8 of TK4- is very old, and probably not the emulator... I'm going to install latest version of RPF on my TK4- tonight and see if the display works well.
But for the record, the emulator I'm using is wx3270, which is the windows flavor of the same family as the linux x3270 emulator. Wiki page is here...
The wx3270, x3270, vista etc are all terminal programs that emulate the original IBM dumb terminals (VDU and keyboard). Hercules is the 'emulator' which emulates the IBM mainframe hardware that you run MVS under. No I do not use such a long screen as I thought that max sizing is 80 x 43 (Model 4) or 132 x 27 (model 5). Going above these could result in the system not playing nice and I am not sure the the model 5 is supported any way - try the model 5 settings and see. I cannot remember where the sizes are set up but they are in one of the MVS system param files . Vincent <>
Granted, it's alpha software, but it has the classic 3270 font built in, the font automatically scales if I maximize the screen size, it allows for customized screen sizes beyond M2-M5, and I've found it to be pretty decent so far.? Better than the wc3270 at any rate...? I also like Tom Brennan's Vista 3270 version 2 which allows for scalable screen size/custom fonts as well, but Tom earlier advised me that his V2 is dead-end.? I really want to use a free/reasonably priced emulator that can cope well with screens larger than 80X24 if at all possible (putty/mintty have spoiled me that way!).? Just curious, how much does IBM Personal Communications cost?
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Hi Vince, Yes, I know the difference between a TERMINAL emulator (wx3270) and the MAINFRAME emulator (Hercules).? I've not touched any of the MVS system parameters in TK4- at all; I'm simply experimenting with the screen settings in the terminal emulators and seeing if I can get a nice wide display from the editing tools so I don't have to hit PF10/PF11 when looking at JES2 output and/or datasets with a larger LRECL than 80. For the others who've recommended Vista, besides the free wx3270, I already have vista tn3270, as well as vista tn3270 v2, and (now) I also have a 90 day trial of IBM Personal Communications.? With all of these terminal emulators now available to me I've just experimented in all kinds of modes with all of them on the version of RPF that came with TK4-.?? I don't want to get in a terminal emulators war, a productivity tools war or anything else of the sort; but this is what I've observed, and I could be wrong in my conclusions but it's what I see:? Vista and IBM Personal Communications, when putting in larger display modes, seem to switch back and forth between classic 80x24 mode and extended mode (M1-M5) dynamically.? For example when displaying the TK4- login banner, they are in 80x24 and they may either scale up the font size accordingly (if your window is maximized) or reduce the window size if the font size is fixed.? Whereas wx3270 is keeping the custom dimensions I gave it (e.g. 150x43) and displays the login banner in the upper left corner. RPF seems to dynamically switch screen modes - its first screen is 80x24.? If I've maximized the IBM Personal Communications window, it will auto-center the first RPF screen in 80x24 mode. Vista will make the terminal window larger or smaller.? Whereas RFE scales itself really nice on wx3270.? Have a look at this screenshot where I'm browsing (as HERC03) the SYS2.JCCLLIB(PRIMCOB1) dataset.? (I display the settings dialog over the screen on purpose to show that it's a custom size of 43 rows/150 columns).? And then, have a look at the 2nd screen shot that shows a full JES2 output log without needing to scroll left/right.? That is why I personally like to have options that allow one a wider terminal screen.??  
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On Sat, 21 Nov 2020, at 01:08, Jeffrey Melton via groups.io wrote: RPF seems to dynamically switch screen modes - its first screen is
80x24. If I've maximized the IBM Personal Communications window, it
will auto-center the first RPF screen in 80x24 mode. Vista will make
the terminal window larger or smaller. I don't know how RPF decides what size of screen image to send to a user, but in ISPF (which I last used in early 2000) one had to tell it (in some settings at option 0, if I remember right) what kind of terminal one was using. I expect that had to match the way one's terminal emulator was set up. I also expect there's a difference in behaviour between (ISPF/RPF) panels where the panel layout is defined in a static/fixed layout, most likely as n rows of 80 bytes, and those where the panel is in essence a title line followed by a dynamic (stretchable in both directions) area which a program - knowing what size of the screen the user wants to use - can make any shape it likes. I think what you're seeing is the down-side of software terminal emulators being able to be all things to all people, in a way that the original hardware could not. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
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Hello! Writing as a VM supporter and normal watcher in this list, if you're going to use supported emulators go for that one. Me? I use those evals of PCOMM because that's what I started with.. ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@... "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again." On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 8:08 PM Jeffrey Melton via groups.io <melman74@...> wrote:
Hi Vince,
Yes, I know the difference between a TERMINAL emulator (wx3270) and the MAINFRAME emulator (Hercules). I've not touched any of the MVS system parameters in TK4- at all; I'm simply experimenting with the screen settings in the terminal emulators and seeing if I can get a nice wide display from the editing tools so I don't have to hit PF10/PF11 when looking at JES2 output and/or datasets with a larger LRECL than 80.
For the others who've recommended Vista, besides the free wx3270, I already have vista tn3270, as well as vista tn3270 v2, and (now) I also have a 90 day trial of IBM Personal Communications. With all of these terminal emulators now available to me I've just experimented in all kinds of modes with all of them on the version of RPF that came with TK4-.
I don't want to get in a terminal emulators war, a productivity tools war or anything else of the sort; but this is what I've observed, and I could be wrong in my conclusions but it's what I see: Vista and IBM Personal Communications, when putting in larger display modes, seem to switch back and forth between classic 80x24 mode and extended mode (M1-M5) dynamically. For example when displaying the TK4- login banner, they are in 80x24 and they may either scale up the font size accordingly (if your window is maximized) or reduce the window size if the font size is fixed. Whereas wx3270 is keeping the custom dimensions I gave it (e.g. 150x43) and displays the login banner in the upper left corner.
RPF seems to dynamically switch screen modes - its first screen is 80x24. If I've maximized the IBM Personal Communications window, it will auto-center the first RPF screen in 80x24 mode. Vista will make the terminal window larger or smaller.
Whereas RFE scales itself really nice on wx3270. Have a look at this screenshot where I'm browsing (as HERC03) the SYS2.JCCLLIB(PRIMCOB1) dataset. (I display the settings dialog over the screen on purpose to show that it's a custom size of 43 rows/150 columns). And then, have a look at the 2nd screen shot that shows a full JES2 output log without needing to scroll left/right. That is why I personally like to have options that allow one a wider terminal screen.
And this space belongs to the Rebel Alliance because Lando Calrissian wanted it that way. And bought the space for it.
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On 2020-11-21 12:08 PM, Jeffrey Melton via groups.io wrote: Whereas wx3270 is keeping the custom dimensions I gave it (e.g. 150x43) and displays the login banner in the upper left corner. So there's a few issues there.? One is what an application can request, another is how real 3270 hardware would respond to those requests, and yet another is how emulators on workstations represent 3270 behaviour. MVS 3.8 out of the box supports only two 3270 screen sizes: Model-1 (12 x 40) and Model-2 (24 x 80) which correspond to the models of 3277 that IBM manufactured. 3278 screens eventually came along and had models 2, 3, 4, and 5. They, like the 3277 were monochrome.? Then the 3279 came along which supported colour, and also offered graphics models. The ZP60008 usermod hacked VTAM to support EWA and WSF CCW generation when those functions were requested by the application. The ZP60009 usermod hacked TSO/VTAM (which is associated with the started task named TSO) to support lots of extras, including allowing applications to use EWA and WSF, and allowing TSO line mode housekeeping to support any architecturally valid screen size. These usermods were aimed at TSO under VTAM and not TSO under TCAM. The TSO started task is not needed to logon to TSO using TCAM.? The TSO started task requires that VTAM is running. Back in the day, TCAM and VTAM started tasks were most often called TP and NET respectively because TP and NET are hard-coded operands of the VARY (V) and HALT (Z) system commands, and it helped make it obvious to operators that those commands would affect those started tasks. For 2 or 3 decades now, I've noticed that the usual name of the VTAM started task is VTAM, and of course TCAM is no longer with us. BTW, Fujitsu's DCMS component to its AIM data base used the QNAME JCL construct for its purposes, the Fj OS not having TCAM meaning that TCAM was not going to use it. So, it is with EW and EWA that the screen size of a 3270 terminal can be switched to the primary and alternate sizes respectively. Both Erase/Write functions also clear the screen and reset all character attributes as well. The CLEAR button will put a screen into its primary size, but also sends the key's AID inbound, which the TSO TMP detects, and the TMP will send an EWA to put the screen back to its alternate size if appropriate for the current line mode screen settings.? Fullscreen applications are responsible for issuing EW or EWA for reshow requests and after an attention interrupt. The line mode screen size is independent of the fullscreen application screen size, by which I mean that one might be the primary size and the other might be the alternate size.? This shows up when you get a line mode message like a job end notification message while running a fullscreen application. So, how to make the TSO screen size user-configurable such that the TMP will adapt to that size when the user logs on?? It's not as if we can use those new-age (late 1980s? early 1990s?) logmodes that provide that function for ACF/VTAM. Usermod ZP60009 also inserted a Read Partiton (Query) into the logon exit and extracted the screen sizes, stored them in a control block, and then set the screen to the relevant size which updates line mode housekeeping with the relevant dimensions. Fullscreen applications can use EW and EWA to switch between screen sizes at will.? The TERMINAL (or TERM for short) command can be used to switch line mode screen sizes.? eg. TERM SCR(24 80). Note that REVIEW/RFE does the wrong thing by getting the screen size from GTSIZE - it should get it from GTTERM (which was another thing added by ZP60009) - but using GTSIZE allows me to test screen handling by more easily changing the screen size without having to log off and on. And if you are writing a TN3270 client, and you know that (for example) the primary size is 24 x 80 and the alternate size is 40 x 150, then you may well decide to organise the screen real estate for the larger size, and just use the top left corner when the host software switches to the smaller size.? You may even offer to make that more sophisticated and pleasing to the eye if someone offers you enough money to do so.? But that's just my guess. Format-1 display cells are 9 pixels across and 16 pixels high.? The 3279-S3G colour graphics terminal supported 32 lines.? When it was set to 24 lines it only used the top 3/4 of the screen.? It also only ever showed the top 12 pixel lines of each display cell. The 3179-G was the follow-on product, but it showed all pixel lines in 24-line mode, and the top 12 pixel lines in 32-line mode.? That is, it used the whole screen for both screen sizes. Cheers, Greg
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Greg,
Thanks so much for your response!!? I love using RFE (even though you said it does the wrong thing above - it still works wonderfully on any extended display settings I throw at it from any of the terminal emulators I have!).? Though I'm still a "newbie" at RFE, I'm getting better and better, and would be happy to offer not only my newbie status but my writing skills to use in developing an "RFE for Beginners" training manual.?
I got my feet wet using RFE with the Moshix videos.? My own experience in actual mainframe world was early in my career as IMS and NOMAD2 application programmer in VM/CMS and MVS in the days of XA.? So I know enough of the general vocab and basics, a good bit about tools we don't have on Hercules/MVS3.8j, but not a whole lot about system programming, and definitely not at your own technical depth.
I do have one, nagging question for you, however, about RFE that I haven't yet found the answer to - and I'll be sure to put it in any manual I may help to develop....? What are the valid values for the "Scroll ===>" prompt and their meanings?? All I see is the default "CS" but there are many references in the help text to say that the 'scroll' value is used if no operand is specified.? I've tried putting in other values in there and it seems to just overwrite them with 'CS'.
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On 2020-11-21 3:16 PM, Jeffrey Melton
via groups.io wrote:
What are the valid
values for the "Scroll ===>" prompt and their meanings?
Well, Jeff, I haven't tested it lately, but I'll tell you how it's supposed
to work...
Valid values are:
- any 2-digit decimal number
- PG for a full page
- HF for half a page
- CS for cursor
So, if you issue the DOWN or UP or LEFT or RIGHT command (or any of
their aliases) and do not specify any operands, then the scrolling
distance will be taken from the Scroll input field.? That is, the
contents of that field is how you specify the default operand of a
scrolling command.
If the scroll field contains HF and you issue DOWN, then the request
is as if you had issued DOWN H.
Originally, the scroll field was 20 for a whole page (because REVIEW
only supported 24 x 80 screens), but I made the scrolling a bit more
ISPF-like.
Note that ISPF has a 4-character scroll field.? The equivalent
values are PAGE and PG, HALF and HF and CSR and CS.
If you have the cursor on the 5th data line and issue DOWN C then
you will scroll down 4 lines and the cursor will be on the top data
line.
If you have the cursor on the 20th data column and issue RIGHT with
the Scroll amount specifying CS, then you will scroll right 19
columns (data width permitting) with the cursor on the left-most
visible data column.
If the cursor is not in the data part of the screen, then CS is
equivalent to PG - full page scrolling.
Note that a numeric scroll amount specifies lines for UP/DOWN and
columns for LEFT/RIGHT.
I usually have the scroll amount set to CS, and have PF 7 set to UP,
so that when I want to scroll up 5 lines, I type a 5 in the Command
input area and then press PF 7.? The PF command setting prefixes
typed data before the command is parsed.
In IBM's ISPF, I find I cannot override the scroll amount with a
numeric value that exceeds 999, though my memory is that you could
use a 4-digit number back in the 1980s.
Hth.
Cheers,
Greg
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On Fri, 20 Nov 2020 23:53:41 +0000, "Vince Coen" <vbcoen@...> wrote: Hi all, I am reading this thread about 3270 terminal emulators and remembered one emulator that I have not read any comment about. I don't even know if it works as expected or not. Being a free software, so very afordable (?), perhaps could be an option for some one here: I use x3270 on Linux and am well served, I think, but anyway that one could be an option. On 20/11/2020 20:28, Jeffrey Melton via groups.io wrote:
Hi Jeff,
I know now that the problem is likely because of the version of the
RPF originally in v8 of TK4- is very old, and probably not the
emulator... I'm going to install latest version of RPF on my TK4-
tonight and see if the display works well.
But for the record, the emulator I'm using is wx3270, which is the
windows flavor of the same family as the linux x3270 emulator. Wiki
page is here...
The wx3270, x3270, vista etc are all terminal programs that emulate
the original IBM dumb terminals (VDU and keyboard).
Hercules is the 'emulator' which emulates the IBM mainframe hardware
that you run MVS under.
No I do not use such a long screen as I thought that max sizing is 80
x 43 (Model 4) or 132 x 27 (model 5).
Going above these could result in the system not playing nice and I
am not sure the the model 5 is supported any way - try the model 5
settings and see.
I cannot remember where the sizes are set up but they are in one of
the MVS system param files
.
Vincent
<>
Granted, it's alpha software, but it has the classic 3270 font
built in, the font automatically scales if I maximize the screen
size, it allows for customized screen sizes beyond M2-M5, and I've
found it to be pretty decent so far.? Better than the wc3270 at any
rate...? I also like Tom Brennan's Vista 3270 version 2 which
allows for scalable screen size/custom fonts as well, but Tom
earlier advised me that his V2 is dead-end.? I really want to use a
free/reasonably priced emulator that can cope well with screens
larger than 80X24 if at all possible (putty/mintty have spoiled me
that way!).? Just curious, how much does IBM Personal
Communications cost?
Roxo -- ---------------- Non luctari, ludare -------------------+ WYSIWYG Fernando M. Roxo da Motta <mvs@...> | Editor? Except where explicitly stated I speak on my own behalf.| VI !! PU5RXO | I see text, ------------ Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?-------------+ I get text!
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Hi Jeff,I know now that the problem is likely because of the version of the RPF originally in v8 of TK4- is very old, and probably not the emulator... I'm going to install latest version of RPF on my TK4- tonight and see if the display works well.But for the record, the emulator I'm using is wx3270, which is the windows flavor of the same family as the linux x3270 emulator. Wiki page is here..
RPF on TK4- is a very old release (1.5.3). This old version supports only 24x80, 32x80, 43x80 terminals. Only the browser supports 27x132 terminals. Now RPF 185 is available. This version can have screensizes up to 99 lines and 200 characters width. The maximum screensize (lines x size) is 16K bytes, so a screen of 81x200 is possible, but a 82x200 screen will revert to 24x80. If more lines are requested, decrease the width. Please download and install RPF from or take file 415 from www,cbttape.org (look first in the updates section). You can use member LOADXMIM for the MVS38J (like TK4-) loadmodules or LOADXMI for the z/OS loadmodules. Cheers, Rob
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If you enroll in IBM's "Master the Mainframe" online training they will give you a free license for TN3270.
(or at least they did when I signed up back in May)
If you have a .EDU email address, you can register someplace else on IBM's website and
get a free licensed copy of PCOMM v14.0 for Windows.?
(where that was exactly I can't remember at the moment)
Bill
|
Dorsnt that training have a price tag?
On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 6:00 PM, Bill Lewis <wrljet@...> wrote: If you enroll in IBM's "Master the Mainframe" online training they will give you a free license for TN3270.
(or at least they did when I signed up back in May)
If you have a .EDU email address, you can register someplace else on IBM's website and
get a free licensed copy of PCOMM v14.0 for Windows.?
(where that was exactly I can't remember at the moment)
Bill
|
On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 06:08 PM, Doug Wegscheid wrote:
Dorsnt that training have a price tag?
No.
On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 6:00 PM, Bill Lewis
<wrljet@...> wrote:
If you enroll in IBM's "Master the Mainframe" online training they will give you a free license for TN3270.
(or at least they did when I signed up back in May)
If you have a .EDU email address, you can register someplace else on IBM's website and
get a free licensed copy of PCOMM v14.0 for Windows.?
(where that was exactly I can't remember at the moment)
Bill
|
I learned about it myself on the Moshix Mainframe Discord channel.
(maybe this link works)
Bill
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 06:08 PM, Doug Wegscheid wrote:
Dorsnt that training have a price tag?
On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 6:00 PM, Bill Lewis
<wrljet@...> wrote:
If you enroll in IBM's "Master the Mainframe" online training they will give you a free license for TN3270.
(or at least they did when I signed up back in May)
If you have a .EDU email address, you can register someplace else on IBM's website and
get a free licensed copy of PCOMM v14.0 for Windows.?
(where that was exactly I can't remember at the moment)
Bill
|
Thanks Bill,
I think right now I have enough (terminal) emulators.? I have Vista v1 and v2 from Tom Brennan, the freeware wc3270 and wx3270 built on Linux's w3270, and a running 90 day trial of IBM Personal Communications.? One thing I will say for the free/reasonable priced emulators (Vista and the w3270 descendants), I think they are better than or just as good as IBM's - they more than meet my needs as a Hercules hobbyist.? I personally wish Tom Brennan was continuing development on Vista, because that would otherwise be my go-to terminal emulator.
Am I personally interested in the "Master the Mainframe" program?? Not right now.? I'd rather tinker around in my own Herc/MVS3.8 environment, either with TK4- or in my own sysgenned MVS 3.8.? Were I to be seriously considering getting back into mainframe programming as a career, I'd pursue MtM more earnestly at that point.? Right now, I've got plenty to keep me entertained for awhile what with relearning JCL, playing as system programmer, using KICKS, playing with all of the MVS 3.8j compilers, retrograding various COBOL programs I've written over the years to work with our 1972 COBOL compiler, learning/using VSAM instead of a database, getting into PL/I, learning mainframe assembly language, and using REXX and TSO CLISTs.
As far as the original reason for my post, I will be installing the latest version of RPF on a TK4- environment shortly and will let you all know what I find out as far as the screen behavior.? As Rob has said above, the latest version should work with my ideal custom terminal size (150x43), so we'll see...
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On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 07:36 PM, Jeffrey Melton wrote:
As far as the original reason for my post, I will be installing the latest version of RPF on a TK4- environment shortly and will let you all know what I find out as far as the screen behavior.? As Rob has said above, the latest version should work with my ideal custom terminal size (150x43), so we'll see...
That's no problem Jeffrey. Cheers, Rob
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On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 10:36 PM, Jeffrey Melton wrote:
Am I personally interested in the "Master the Mainframe" program?? Not right now.? I'd rather tinker around in my own Herc/MVS3.8 environment, either
I wasn't suggesting you would take the training. Just that it is a way for anyone to get a licensed TN3270 (should they want one).
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Jeff Bassett
Jeremy Nicoll
Rob Prins