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The 3850 (and the 2821 before it, which performed a similar function in a much different manner) were notoriously unreliable, with serious issues surrounding the function of retrieving and storing of cartridges. When they worked, they worked fairly well, but the problems were such that people tended to design their systems not to need that functionality. Only a few of the largest customers had them, and only for uses where they needed the performance. Eventually, software such as DFHSM and equivalents from Sterling Software and FDR provided the same function with standard tapes.

I would say it was hard to design systems that made efficient use of them. I can see that some Universities and research organizations in the UK had them. I think at Manchester University they were used for storing data for an individual user. I think in a commercial setting it might be hard to design a system that made efficient use of them. As they were unreliable I imagine you would want them backed up and I can't see how you would achieve that..

On Fri, Feb 7, 2025 at 12:21?AM Dave Trainor - N8ZFM via <dave=n8zfm.com@groups.io> wrote:

So I am studying the OS JCL and Utilities book (Michael Trombetta) from the mid 80's, good book ,was recommended to me for the MVS 3.8j era of JCL.? Am happy with it and can also recommend it.

They discuss utilization of the MSS storage device(s) a 3850, and at the mid 80's of the book it was a current device, seems to consist of a 3330 disk (maybe more than one) and a series of tape carts, with an "invisible" autoloader system, so as to implement "near-line" storage.? ?Only one actual dasd and a bunch of different images of it on tape, that would be recalled by the VOLSER from MVS and loaded on the live DASD where it was then a live 3330 disk. (obviously a delay in preforming this "staging operation" as I take it was called).

Probably more complicated in reality but that is my gist of the functionality.? ?Different logically but easier than mounting a tape, doing a restore, then archiving, not as fast as having dedicated DASD.

Not really. Thats pretty much what it did. The complex bit probably writing the updated disk track back to the 3330.

I assume since I can't find it in Hercules, that this device and not sure to call it tape or disk - is not emulated by Hercules, probably would not be useful and no one uses any such scheme since the mid 80 As the need probably got replaced quickly by vastly larger amounts of cheap DASD being available?? ? Anyone know?? ?Or remember these things and why they are obscure today?

Not many made. Really only useful in special, e.g. R&D settings. Quickly eclipsed by cartridge loaders and larger disks. Some recollections by VMers are here

I do not see this as being the same functionality as a backup tape library (automounter) of true tapes treated as tapes which is for sure still being utilized.

It wasn't. A common use was in Universities and research where each user had a cartridge.

Is my assessment of what this 3850 MSS device was correct?

Pretty much

And why we don't have an emulation for such a thing anymore?

I think no love for it. People write emulations because they have a love for something. No one loved the MSS.
Also getting to right amount of unreliability to make a realistic emulation might be tricky, even on windows.

Thanks,
Dave N8ZFM

--

Jay Maynard

Dave
G4UGM

So I am studying the OS JCL and Utilities book (Michael Trombetta) from the mid 80's, good book ,was recommended to me for the MVS 3.8j era of JCL. Am happy with it and can also recommend it.

They discuss utilization of the MSS storage device(s) a 3850, and at the mid 80's of the book it was a current device, seems to consist of a 3330 disk (maybe more than one) and a series of tape carts, with an "invisible" autoloader system, so as to implement "near-line" storage. Only one actual dasd and a bunch of different images of it on tape, that would be recalled by the VOLSER from MVS and loaded on the live DASD where it was then a live 3330 disk. (obviously a delay in preforming this "staging operation" as I take it was called).

Probably more complicated in reality but that is my gist of the functionality. Different logically but easier than mounting a tape, doing a restore, then archiving, not as fast as having dedicated DASD.

I assume since I can't find it in Hercules, that this device and not sure to call it tape or disk - is not emulated by Hercules, probably would not be useful and no one uses any such scheme since the mid 80 As the need probably got replaced quickly by vastly larger amounts of cheap DASD being available? Anyone know? Or remember these things and why they are obscure today?

I do not see this as being the same functionality as a backup tape library (automounter) of true tapes treated as tapes which is for sure still being utilized.


Is my assessment of what this 3850 MSS device was correct? And why we don't have an emulation for such a thing anymore?

Thanks,
Dave N8ZFM

Hello Andre,

I hate to spoil your enthusiasm, but…


Am 04.02.2025 um 22:02 schrieb Andre via groups.io <> <procritic@...>:

My dreams come true

… and a dream it is.

If you blindly trust today's whatever AI's output you get what you deserve. Always verify allegations. And if you need to check, and AI asking + checking takes more time than doing proper research in the first place, what's the point of wasting time with AI?

AI can be helpful for certain tasks, but as long as the "I" is for "Idiot", just be careful.

:wq! PoC

Hello Greg,

Am 21.01.2025 um 11:15 schrieb Greg Price via groups.io <procegrog@...>:

Broadly speaking, copy the load modules into a linklist library and then issue the desired TSO command(s) at the READY prompt.

Examples of such TSO commands are
REV mydsname
REV SYSPROC F
RFE
REVOUT
REVLEV
FSH ALLOC O(UNIT)

For extra functionality copy the CLISTs with names beginning with REV into a SYSPROC DD library.

If you want, you can copy the HELP members into a SYSHELP DD library.

If you have a TK-based system then likely these libraries already have versions of these programs.
Look in libraries like SYS2.CMDLIB and SYS2.LINKLIB to find out where the existing copies are.

The PANELS members can be copied into an ISPPLIB DD library, but if you have such a library then they may already be there.

Has anybody done an install "procedure" (aka: JCL) matching the turnkey environment? I think this might be a good add-on to the distribution package of REVIEW, since it would ease updating for those who aren't that much fluent with the environment — like me, for example. :-)

:wq! PoC

Frank D. Engel, Jr. wrote:

Fish wrote:

[...]

I didn't even know z/OS *had* an FTP client! Where is it?
How do I get to it? How do I run it?

[...]

Folks? Anyone out there know how to do this? Any helpful
web page or IBM manual you could point us to?

Thanks, Frank! Much appreciated!

Now all I have to do is find the time to give it a try and play around with it. :)

(which at the rate I'm going won't be until sometime around the heat death of the universe.)

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...

Frank R wrote:

Does anyone have a sample of how to download the latest
CBTTAPE to a version of z/OS.

Don't you mean upload?

I am trying to follow the example from the CBT website,
and, having never used the z/OS FTP facility, I'm at a
loss.

FTPing to/from z/OS is just like FTPing to/from anywhere else. The only difference is, because it's z/OS, its file system structure is quite different from most other FTP sites you've probably interacted with before.

With most other FTP site, their file system is likely identical to the way files are organized on most personal computers: files within a hierarchy of directories (e.g. /foo/bar/file). On z/OS however, they're organized by a hierarchy of period separated dataset names.

Because of that, the FTP client you are using needs to know how to properly tell the z/OS FTP server where the given file should be placed. It needs to "know" about z/OS's file system structure.

I do FTP to/from z/OS from my Windows system all the time with FileZilla (which thankfully *does* understand and support "MVS" FTP servers. I can help you with FileZilla if you need it.

I have everything set up on my z/OS system, but I'm falling
deeper down a rabbit hole. I've downloaded the files before,
using my PC as intermediate storage and then sending the file
to z/OS using my 3270 emulator (VISTA3270), but that seems
like an added unnecessary step.

(Urk!) Okay. I lied. I've never used z/OS's FTP *client* before. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

If I understand you correctly, you are wanting to use z/OS's FTP *client* to connect to some FTP web site out there on the internet (in your case, the CBTTAPE site) and DOWNLOAD one or more of their files directly to your z/OS system! Yes?

Sorry. Can't help you there. I've never done that in my life. :(

I always download the file to my PC, and then UPLOAD it from my PC to z/OS.

I didn't even know z/OS *had* an FTP client! Where is it? How do I get to it? How do I run it? Or is it something lame like a batch job you have to run?

I'm with you, Frank! I too would very much like to learn how to do that!

Folks? Anyone out there know how to do this? Any helpful web page or IBM manual you could point us to?

Sorry for wasting your time with this unhelpful reply, Frank. :(

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...

Andrew wrote:

Fish wrote:

[...]

That is, if it's okay with you, Andrew? Yes?

Fish, I'd prefer to stay off the list.

Then as you wish, I shall not.

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...