Re: Question about the availability of several things

#156

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I’ll try this evening, but just actually got some info on the hercules console:

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/00000 16:41:16??????????? ** UMMPS/XA ** assembled 04/19/88

/00000 16:41:16?? CONFIG? CPU 0000 online

/00001 16:41:16???? INIT? Time and date have been set to? 16:41:16 on 07-25-23.

/00002 16:41:16 OPERATOR??? Started at 16:41:16 on 07-25-23? Model 3090 Serial 010611

/00002 16:41:16 OPERATOR??? Using display DS01 & printer CON1 (1052)

HHC00107I Starting thread cckd_writer(), active=0, started=0, max=2

HHC00100I Thread id 00006faf0aaee000, prio 1, name 'cckd_writer thread 1' started

/00004 16:41:18????? MTS?? Current time of 16:41 Tue Jul 25 is more than 12 hours later than

HHC00801I Processor CP00: Protection exception interruption code 0004 ilc 4

HHC02324I PSW=070D100000164324 INST=42609011???? STC?? 6,17(0,9)????????????? store_character

HHC02326I V:00000011:R:0000000000000011:K:0E=000000 00000000 033D2000 0001CE2A 07 ................

HHC02269I GR00=00000018 GR01=00166780 GR02=00166254 GR03=F560F2F3

HHC02269I GR04=00000000 GR05=00000000 GR06=FFFFFFF2 GR07=00000000

HHC02269I GR08=00036A60 GR09=00000000 GR10=00162D18 GR11=00163D18

HHC02269I GR12=00165EC8 GR13=8016421E GR14=80164302 GR15=00000000

HHC02271I CR00=18B0FE40 CR01=0012D000 CR02=00000000 CR03=FFFF0000

HHC02271I CR04=00000000 CR05=00000000 CR06=70000000 CR07=00000000

HHC02271I CR08=000000FF CR09=00000000 CR10=00000000 CR11=00000000

HHC02271I CR12=000B3F1D CR13=00000000 CR14=1F000000 CR15=00000000

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It seems to be trying to craft a message to display the last IPL time.?? I’m assuming that maybe register 9 should have a value in it, but maybe not.

Also, Hercules doesn’t like ARCHMODE ESA/390 and it has the wrong serial number (010611 rather than the 000611 in the cnf file).

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I posted the cnf file on the Hercules 390 group. I’m guessing some settings changed between 3.13 and 4.5.

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Thanks

John

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Show quoted text

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Mike Alexander
Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2023 15:06
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [H390-MTS] Question about the availability of several things

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On 21 Jul 2023, at 22:23, John Palmer wrote:

I'll try to get the super-dump to a tape file, it keeps rejecting the tape drive designation. Do I need to initialize it somehow other than the hercules devint command?

Yes, dump tapes must be labeled tapes with a volume name starting with DUMP. You can label the tape using MTS or some other operating system or you can use the lbltp command line program. See . It should work in most Unix-like systems or in Windows.

Mike

PS: I tried to send this earlier but it didn't seem to get sent. Sorry if you get two copies.

Re: Question about the availability of several things

#155

开云体育

On 21 Jul 2023, at 22:23, John Palmer wrote:

I'll try to get the super-dump to a tape file, it keeps rejecting the tape drive designation. Do I need to initialize it somehow other than the hercules devint command?

Yes, dump tapes must be labeled tapes with a volume name starting with DUMP. You can label the tape using MTS or some other operating system or you can use the lbltp command line program. See . It should work in most Unix-like systems or in Windows.

Mike

PS: I tried to send this earlier but it didn't seem to get sent. Sorry if you get two copies.

Re: Question about the availability of several things

#154

开云体育

On 21 Jul 2023, at 22:23, John Palmer wrote:

I'll try to get the super-dump to a tape file, it keeps rejecting the tape drive designation. Do I need to initialize it somehow other than the hercules devint command?

Yes, dump tapes must be labeled tapes with a volume name starting with DUMP. You can label the tape using MTS or some other operating system or you can use the lbltp command line program. See . It should work in most Unix-like systems or in Windows.

Mike

Re: Question about the availability of several things

#153

Thanks for the reply.

I'm actually moving back to NetBSD, which is what I usually use. Just set up a NetBSD 9.3 VM and installed Hercules 4.5 (they have a pre-built pkgsrc install for it).

Problem is, MTS superdumps during the IPL process when its trying to print out a message about this IPL time being more than 12 hours than the last one. It can print the current date, but not the date of the last IPL.

I'll try to get the super-dump to a tape file, it keeps rejecting the tape drive designation. Do I need to initialize it somehow other than the hercules devint command? 

John

Show quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Mike Alexander
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2023 18:48
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [H390-MTS] Question about the availability of several things

I don't think that Jeff is on this list, but I know he has the Confer files and permission to distribute them.  Getting it running in MTS is not as simple as copying the files and running it.  You also need to create at least one User ID and several configuration files.  I think Jeff has instructions for doing this, but I'm not sure if he has tried doing it.  The plan (such as it is) is to include Confer installed in the next version of MTS.

As far as HIM changes and related stuff, I really intend to work on this over the next few weeks.  This may or may not happen before your upgrade.

Mike

On 18 Jul 2023, at 12:57, John Palmer wrote:

I think we will probably have to wait till d7.0 comes out, but it 
would be nice if someone could get us the Confer files to try out (I 
know, I keep pestering about this, but Confer is a centerpiece of 
MTS).

I’d be willing to do the work to try to get it working.  Is Jeff Ogden 
on this list? I heard that he may have some idea on what would be 
needed to get Confer working. I’m guessing that we need all of the 
files on user CNFR as well as several hooks related to surcharges.  I 
seem to recall that, at WSU, there was some file under CCID “BILL” 
that contained some sort of surcharge related data.
I noticed that the BILL user was not included with d6.0, probably 
because it contained U of M related billing software.

On the subject of Hercules changes,  Mike, I think you said that you 
still have to find out how to integrate your Hercules changes for the 
HIM. I’m going to upgrade to CentOS 9 from 7 because, for some reason, 
large data transfers hang. I’d like to upgrade Hercules at the same 
time.

Thanks

Re: Question about the availability of several things

#152

I don't think that Jeff is on this list, but I know he has the Confer files and permission to distribute them.  Getting it running in MTS is not as simple as copying the files and running it.  You also need to create at least one User ID and several configuration files.  I think Jeff has instructions for doing this, but I'm not sure if he has tried doing it.  The plan (such as it is) is to include Confer installed in the next version of MTS.

As far as HIM changes and related stuff, I really intend to work on this over the next few weeks.  This may or may not happen before your upgrade.

Mike

Show quoted text

On 18 Jul 2023, at 12:57, John Palmer wrote:

I think we will probably have to wait till d7.0 comes out, but it would be nice if someone could get us the Confer files to try out (I know, I keep pestering about this, but Confer is a centerpiece of MTS).

I’d be willing to do the work to try to get it working.? Is Jeff Ogden on this list? I heard that he may have some idea on what would be needed to get Confer working. I’m guessing that we need all of the files on user CNFR as well as several hooks related to surcharges.? I seem to recall that, at WSU, there was some file under CCID “BILL” that contained some sort of surcharge related data.? I noticed that the BILL user was not included with d6.0, probably because it contained U of M related billing software.

On the subject of Hercules changes,? Mike, I think you said that you still have to find out how to integrate your Hercules changes for the HIM. I’m going to upgrade to CentOS 9 from 7 because, for some reason, large data transfers hang. I’d like to upgrade Hercules at the same time.

Thanks

Re: Question about the availability of several things

#151

开云体育

I think we will probably have to wait till d7.0 comes out, but it would be nice if someone could get us the Confer files to try out (I know, I keep pestering about this, but Confer is a centerpiece of MTS).

I’d be willing to do the work to try to get it working.? Is Jeff Ogden on this list? I heard that he may have some idea on what would be needed to get Confer working. I’m guessing that we need all of the files on user CNFR as well as several hooks related to surcharges.? I seem to recall that, at WSU, there was some file under CCID “BILL” that contained some sort of surcharge related data.? I noticed that the BILL user was not included with d6.0, probably because it contained U of M related billing software.

?

On the subject of Hercules changes,? Mike, I think you said that you still have to find out how to integrate your Hercules changes for the HIM. I’m going to upgrade to CentOS 9 from 7 because, for some reason, large data transfers hang. I’d like to upgrade Hercules at the same time.

?

Thanks

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Show quoted text

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Tom Chandler
Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 13:04
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [H390-MTS] Question about the availability of several things

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sir,

I would very interested, if possible.

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Thank you

tom c

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On Mon, Mar 6, 2023 at 11:15?AM John Palmer <jpalmer@...> wrote:

If you guys want anyone to test Confer out on 6.0, I can do so if someone can copy the files into an .AWS tape file.
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Mike Alexander
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2023 16:09
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [H390-MTS] Question about the availability of serveral things
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Most of these issues would be addressed by a release of the 1996 system (maybe D7.0). You're more or less right about the status of various pieces of software. PascalJB would be easy to install, but Confer requires a bit more work since it requires various userIDs and files in obscure locations. I know that Jeff Ogden has looked into this and thinks it is possible, but it hasn't been done.
There is no interest in MTS at UM and no one is running or studying it officially. Most people aren't aware that it existed. I don't know if there is any interest in Software Archaeology here. A couple of years ago I gave a short talk in Newcastle about the history of MTS. I know the CS department there has a significant interest in the history of IT. II was impressed that the Mayor of Newcastle attended, complete with his regalia, and said he remembered using MTS when he aws a student at Newcastle.
Thanks for nudging me about the 1996 system. I really want to get that done but I have a few higher priority things to clear up first.
Mike
On 26 Feb 2023, at 15:15, John Palmer wrote:
I saw an e-mail posted on the MTS archive site from Bon Parnes (Confer creator) that seemed to indicate that he was OK with distributing Confer to people. Is there any way we could get an .AWS file with the Confer program components?
?
I was also wondering about Fortran 77 (*FTNVS) and Pascal VS. I imagine that those are probably still protected IBM property and are probably in the same boat as *ASMH. ??If Pascal VS or *FTNVS are available, it would be cool if we could get those somehow as well.
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I also understand that the creator of *PascalJB has indicated that it can be made available as well.
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I was wondering, in general, what is the status of MTS at U of M? Does U of M have any official instances of MTS running under Hercules?
?
I know that there is a new sub-field of CS called “Software Archaeology” that studies older software systems (for various reasons) – someone did a PHD on this recently. I was wondering if maybe the CS department had it running.
?
Sill anxiously awaiting the release of “d7.0”. I know a lot of people are doing this work on a voluntary basis, and we all appreciate that a lot.
?
Thanks
John

Re: Anyone get PTR2 working

#150

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Obviously me, my apologies. I have both groups going to the same folder and apparently have gotten too old.

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Dave

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From: <[email protected]> on behalf of René Ferland <ferland.rene@...>
Reply-To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Date: Friday, June 30, 2023 at 2:27 AM
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [H390-MTS] Anyone get PTR2 working

?

Show quoted text

On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 11:20 PM, Dave Trainor - N8ZFM wrote:

It does work but I need a much better knowledge of MVS than I have to utilize it.

Hmmm ... This group is about MTS (Michigan Terminal System), not MVS. Who is confused here, you or me?? :-)

Cheers,

Rene FERLAND, Montreal

Re: Anyone get PTR2 working

#149

On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 11:20 PM, Dave Trainor - N8ZFM wrote:

It does work but I need a much better knowledge of MVS than I have to utilize it.

Hmmm ... This group is about MTS (Michigan Terminal System), not MVS. Who is confused here, you or me?? :-)

Cheers,

Rene FERLAND, Montreal

Re: Anyone get PTR2 working

#148

开云体育

I hate to venture this, but – maybe you last line if you omit the Units part will work – not sure why you have that in there.

Try:

000E????? 1403????? PRT2.txt

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See if that will start for you.? For fcb= and lpp= portions I have no knowedge of butit may just be the “Units/” that is causing your problem in the conf file.

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Dave

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From: <[email protected]> on behalf of John Palmer <jpalmer@...>
Reply-To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Date: Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 10:10 PM
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: [H390-MTS] Anyone get PTR2 working

?

Has anyone gotten “PTR2” to work with any versioin of Hercules?? I’ve got 4.6 and have tried these settings:

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#000E 1403?? Units/PTR2.txt lpp=66 fcb=1:11,4:1,5:5,8:10,14:6,19:4,24:7,34:2,44:6,49:4,54:7,63:8,66:3 optprint # PTR2

000E 1403?? Units/PTR2.txt fcb=0111040105050810140619042407340244064904540763086603 #PTR2

#000E 1403?? Units/PTR2.txt nofcbcheck? # PTR2

#000E?? 1403?? Units/PTR2.txt???????????? # PTR2

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But HASP won’t start the printer at all.

?

Thanks

Re: Anyone get PTR2 working

#147

开云体育

Yes, I have it working and it starts, but I can honestly say I use it, or to be more honest really know how to use it much.? It does work but I need a much better knowledge of MVS than I have to utilize it.?? It does however start just fine.

I am using it as an Ip sockedev, and the IP address is due to my local configuration, it resides on a windows server utilizing hercprint, and the MVS instance is on a RaspberryPi running Linux.

000F????? 3211????? 172.30.0.181:3211 sockdev????????? #JES2 PRT2

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For the primary printer I am using

000E????? 1403????? 172.30.0.181:1403 sockdev????????? #JES2 PRT1

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If I can supply you any additional info I certainly will, but I honestly don’t have much and value the other members here that actually know what they are doing.

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Thanks,

Dave

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From: <[email protected]> on behalf of John Palmer <jpalmer@...>
Reply-To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Date: Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 10:10 PM
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: [H390-MTS] Anyone get PTR2 working

?

Has anyone gotten “PTR2” to work with any versioin of Hercules?? I’ve got 4.6 and have tried these settings:

?

#000E 1403?? Units/PTR2.txt lpp=66 fcb=1:11,4:1,5:5,8:10,14:6,19:4,24:7,34:2,44:6,49:4,54:7,63:8,66:3 optprint # PTR2

000E 1403?? Units/PTR2.txt fcb=0111040105050810140619042407340244064904540763086603 #PTR2

#000E 1403?? Units/PTR2.txt nofcbcheck? # PTR2

#000E?? 1403?? Units/PTR2.txt???????????? # PTR2

?

But HASP won’t start the printer at all.

?

Thanks

Re: Anyone get PTR2 working

#146

On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 08:14 PM, Fish Fish wrote:

A 1403 model printer does not use a FCB. Only 3203 and 3211 model printers use FCBs. Model 1403 printers use carriage control tapes:

Now that you mention it, the definition below works fine with SDL Hercules 4.5 for me:

000E 3211 Units/PTR2.txt lpp=66 fcb=11:1,1:4,5:5,10:8,6:14,4:19,7:24,2:34,6:44,4:49,7:54,8:63,3:66

It will produce proper front/back pages. You might have to devise some mechanism to convert PTR2.txt to a PDF after a job, and reset it. In the past, I remember using a script to convert, and the HTTP server to reset.

Cheers,

Rene FERLAND, Montreal

Re: Anyone get PTR2 working

#145

John Palmer wrote:

Has anyone gotten "PTR2" to work with any versioin of Hercules? 
I've got 4.6 and have tried these settings:

  #000E 1403   Units/PTR2.txt lpp=66
    fcb=1:11,4:1,5:5,8:10,14:6,19:4,24:7,34:2,44:6,49:4,54:7,63:8,66:3
    optprint # PTR2
  000E 1403   Units/PTR2.txt
    fcb=0111040105050810140619042407340244064904540763086603 #PTR2
  #000E 1403   Units/PTR2.txt nofcbcheck  # PTR2
  #000E   1403   Units/PTR2.txt             # PTR2

But HASP won't start the printer at all.I don't know MTS, but I do know Hercules, and you're doing it wrong.

A 1403 model printer does not use a FCB. Only 3203 and 3211 model printers use FCBs. Model 1403 printers use carriage control tapes:


  * 

  * 
  * 
  * 
  * 


Now whether that is causing your problem or not, I do not know. As I said, I don't know MTS! Sorry!

I hope that helps some!


P.S. Also, FWIW, in the SDL 4.x Hyperion version of Hercules, the 'nofcbcheck' option has been deprecated, and the 'optprint' option isn't supported at all.

-- 
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...

Re: Anyone get PTR2 working

#144

On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 07:10 PM, John Palmer wrote:

Has anyone gotten “PTR2” to work with any version of Hercules??

Yes, I have, both with Hercules 3.13 and SDL Hercules 4.5.

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In my configuration file, I defined 00E as

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00E 1403 1403 sockdev

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to which I connect the virtual1403 program of Matthew Wilson:

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https://github.com/racingmars/virtual1403

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Once the IPL is finished (when message PEEK initialization complete appears), I type the following commands at the console:

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hasp cold

mts *hsp

mts *las

$list 0

$release ex

%empty

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I am not sure that virtual1403 produces the right spacing for the front/back pages, but the final output is quite satifying.

?

Cheers,

?

Rene FERLAND

?

Anyone get PTR2 working

#143

开云体育

Has anyone gotten “PTR2” to work with any versioin of Hercules?? I’ve got 4.6 and have tried these settings:

?

#000E 1403?? Units/PTR2.txt lpp=66 fcb=1:11,4:1,5:5,8:10,14:6,19:4,24:7,34:2,44:6,49:4,54:7,63:8,66:3 optprint # PTR2

000E 1403?? Units/PTR2.txt fcb=0111040105050810140619042407340244064904540763086603 #PTR2

#000E 1403?? Units/PTR2.txt nofcbcheck? # PTR2

#000E?? 1403?? Units/PTR2.txt???????????? # PTR2

?

But HASP won’t start the printer at all.

?

Thanks

Re: What changes were made to Assembler H to support MTS and can those be ported to, say Assembler G?

#142

John,
In that case move the files to be assembled to an environment where Java exists. 
Dave

And to answer some other questions, Assembler H is discontinued as a product. The current product is the "High Level Assembler" which I assume is delivered as object code only so you cannot modify it.
However, I believe it includes all the SLAC modifications:-

As far as I know IBM never released anything, other than APL/360 which I don't believe was ever a program product. It is released with draconian licence restrictions so you can't distribute a modified version.

Dave

Show quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of John Palmer
Sent: Thursday, June 8, 2023 4:48 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [H390-MTS] What changes were made to Assembler H to support
MTS and can those be ported to, say Assembler G?

I don't think anyone ever ported Java to MTS.

It would be hard because the class layout in Java (i.e.
"com.abc.package1.package2.class") requires a directory structure and MTS is
"flat".

I know there was the beginning of a design to implement a hierarchical directory
system in MTS, but it never went anywhere.

One funny note about that subject is that there was a whole Confer item where
people debated endlessly about what the directory separator character should
be ( ":", "/", "\", etc).
More words were generated on that one point than on any other design aspect
?

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave Wade
Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 15:27
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [H390-MTS] What changes were made to Assembler H to support
MTS and can those be ported to, say Assembler G?

Mike,
Rather than mess with one of the assemblers running on the "Mainframe" would
it be easier to modify the Z390 assembler which is written in Java and runs on
any environment with java?

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Mike
Alexander
Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 6:11 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [H390-MTS] What changes were made to Assembler H to
support MTS and can those be ported to, say Assembler G?

There are a number of interesting questions here, I'll see what I can
do to answer some of them.

Assembling parts of MTS with ASMG is not going to be easy, or even possible.
There are other 370 assemblers that are closer to ASMH which might be
a better starting point.  There have been a number of discussions
about this on various Hercules or MTS lists.

The ASMH in MTS is about three generations removed from ASMG.  First
you have the extensive changes to the language IBM made.  Then there
are a number of changes made at Stanford University.  The MTS version
is based on the Stanford version with more changes.  The update files
in MTS go from the IBM version through all these changes to the MTS version.
There are about 50 files containing well over 10,000 lines, probably
at least twice that or more..  And tthe starting point (IBM ASMH) is
only distantly related to ASMG.

There is a list of all the changes to the language between the IBM and
MTS versions of ASMH in MTS Volume 14 on page 18.  It contains 27
items over 7 pages.  Some are trivial, but some aren't, for example
number 19 describes forward references on ORG statements which are
used in a number of macros in MTS.

The  expression  on an ORG statement can contain symbols not yet
defined in the program.  There must be exactly one way in  which the
locations  counters can be assigned, i.e., the ORGs must be
resolvable and unambiguous.Number 25 and 26 describe significant extensions to USING statements
and the resolution of base/displacement values through them which are
used extensively in MTS.  These two points take up about 4 pages.

This section of Vol 14 only describes language changes, not other
changes such as the PEXIT parameter which is used to improve the printedlisting.

PISTLE is the Post IPL system loader.  It loads code into shared VM
during startup or later when run by a system programmer.  It is not
related to RAMROD.  There is a command macro to invoke it somewhere,perhaps in MTS:CMDMACLIB.
During startup it is invoked from *S2L.
Installing something loaded by PISTLE simply means copying the new
object to whatever file *S2L loads it from.

PISTLE is related to the NAS loader which loads things into Named
Address Spaces.  NASes are preloaded segments of storage which can be
attached to MTS tasks as required.  For example ASMH is loaded into a
NAS and *ASMH is a small driver program which attaches the NAX and
calls it.  I think these existed in D6, they are used extensively in the 1996system.

D6 doesn't have working IP support, the Internet was pretty new in 1988.
  As a side note it was sometime in 1989 that I put the first IP
packets on an ethernet at the University of London, somewhat to the
consternation of the local network support folks who thought that
TCP/IP would swamp the ethernet and were surprised when it didn't  The
1996 system has decent support for the Internet as it existed then
(i.e. no encryption of any sort).  This requires changes to Hercules which arealmost done.

I hope this helps a bit.

Mike

On 5 Jun 2023, at 22:09, John Palmer wrote:

Just wondering what changes were made to Assembler-H to make it
support MTS and could those be ported to Assembler-G.

Are there any other assemblers that work on MTS that could be
modified easier?

I got a bunch of rates stuff assembled successfully with Assembler G
after modifying some of the macros.  The final piece is RNBRSUB. I
wrote a local copy with my own billing classes, but it

Has a bunch of includes that I have to restore from the distribution
tapes.  Not sure there are landmines in there.

Comments in RNBRSUB say it can be installed with Pistle, which I
assume is a way to hot-swap system components without an IPL. Is
there some documentation on this? To install it permanently, I
assume I use RAMROD.

On TCP/IP – are there any Telnet connections configured in the d6.0A
TABLES?  If I use Mike Alexander’s current code, will I be able to
test out internet stuff with d6.0A?

Anxiously awaiting d7.0, especially Confer. ?

Re: What changes were made to Assembler H to support MTS and can those be ported to, say Assembler G?

#141

Thanks for the info, Mike. 

Does IBM still have an "Assember H"? I see docs on their website for z/Architecture stuff that references "Assembler H".

What version of "H" was the MTS version built off of?  Has anyone asked IBM if they'll release that version for public consumption?

Do they ever release anything?

Thanks for the info on TCP/IP. I know that there is a TLNT Manager:

- 00056      MTS 00059920   52 TLNT Manager  HOST WMTS *TCM;

But when I run *LAS, it says "No Telnet connections available". So, I'll wait for "d7.0".

It would really be nice to get the Confer files, if someone could put them into an .AWS file. I'd be willing to try to get it working on d6.0. If I figure out how to get it working, I'll post notes here.
I saw that Bon Parnes gave permission for this.  I imagine that it’s just the files on user CNFR plus some hooks into the accounting system for the surcharge stuff. 

There aren't many of the old-timers still left. I think Tom Stevenson is still at WSU.  We lost Lee Maschmeyer a few years ago (). He was a remarkable programmer who was blind from birth but still managed to master IBM assembler and worked at WSU for 43 years.

John

Show quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Mike Alexander
Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 00:11
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [H390-MTS] What changes were made to Assembler H to support MTS and can those be ported to, say Assembler G?

There are a number of interesting questions here, I'll see what I can do to answer some of them.

Assembling parts of MTS with ASMG is not going to be easy, or even possible.  There are other 370 assemblers that are closer to ASMH which might be a better starting point.  There have been a number of discussions about this on various Hercules or MTS lists.

The ASMH in MTS is about three generations removed from ASMG.  First you have the extensive changes to the language IBM made.  Then there are a number of changes made at Stanford University.  The MTS version is based on the Stanford version with more changes.  The update files in MTS go from the IBM version through all these changes to the MTS version.  
There are about 50 files containing well over 10,000 lines, probably at least twice that or more..  And tthe starting point (IBM ASMH) is only distantly related to ASMG.

There is a list of all the changes to the language between the IBM and MTS versions of ASMH in MTS Volume 14 on page 18.  It contains 27 items over 7 pages.  Some are trivial, but some aren't, for example number 19 describes forward references on ORG statements which are used in a number of macros in MTS.

The  expression  on an ORG statement can contain symbols not yet 
defined in the program.  There must be exactly one way in  which the 
locations  counters can be assigned, i.e., the ORGs must be resolvable 
and unambiguous.Number 25 and 26 describe significant extensions to USING statements and the resolution of base/displacement values through them which are used extensively in MTS.  These two points take up about 4 pages.

This section of Vol 14 only describes language changes, not other changes such as the PEXIT parameter which is used to improve the printed listing.

PISTLE is the Post IPL system loader.  It loads code into shared VM during startup or later when run by a system programmer.  It is not related to RAMROD.  There is a command macro to invoke it somewhere, perhaps in MTS:CMDMACLIB.  During startup it is invoked from *S2L.  
Installing something loaded by PISTLE simply means copying the new object to whatever file *S2L loads it from.

PISTLE is related to the NAS loader which loads things into Named Address Spaces.  NASes are preloaded segments of storage which can be attached to MTS tasks as required.  For example ASMH is loaded into a NAS and *ASMH is a small driver program which attaches the NAX and calls it.  I think these existed in D6, they are used extensively in the 1996 system.

D6 doesn't have working IP support, the Internet was pretty new in 1988. 
  As a side note it was sometime in 1989 that I put the first IP packets on an ethernet at the University of London, somewhat to the consternation of the local network support folks who thought that TCP/IP would swamp the ethernet and were surprised when it didn't  The 1996 system has decent support for the Internet as it existed then (i.e. no encryption of any sort).  This requires changes to Hercules which are almost done.

I hope this helps a bit.

Mike

On 5 Jun 2023, at 22:09, John Palmer wrote:

Just wondering what changes were made to Assembler-H to make it 
support MTS and could those be ported to Assembler-G.

Are there any other assemblers that work on MTS that could be modified 
easier?

I got a bunch of rates stuff assembled successfully with Assembler G 
after modifying some of the macros.  The final piece is RNBRSUB. I 
wrote a local copy with my own billing classes, but it

Has a bunch of includes that I have to restore from the distribution 
tapes.  Not sure there are landmines in there.

Comments in RNBRSUB say it can be installed with Pistle, which I 
assume is a way to hot-swap system components without an IPL. Is there 
some documentation on this? To install it permanently, I assume I use 
RAMROD.

On TCP/IP – are there any Telnet connections configured in the d6.0A 
TABLES?  If I use Mike Alexander’s current code, will I be able to 
test out internet stuff with d6.0A?

Anxiously awaiting d7.0, especially Confer. ?

Re: What changes were made to Assembler H to support MTS and can those be ported to, say Assembler G?

#140

I don't think anyone ever ported Java to MTS. 
 
It would be hard because the class layout in Java (i.e. "com.abc.package1.package2.class") requires a directory structure and MTS is "flat".
 
I know there was the beginning of a design to implement a hierarchical directory system in MTS, but it never went anywhere.

One funny note about that subject is that there was a whole Confer item where people debated endlessly about what the directory separator character should be ( ":", "/", "\", etc). 
More words were generated on that one point than on any other design aspect ?

Show quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave Wade
Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 15:27
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [H390-MTS] What changes were made to Assembler H to support MTS and can those be ported to, say Assembler G?

Mike,
Rather than mess with one of the assemblers running on the "Mainframe" would it be easier to modify the Z390 assembler which is written in Java and runs on any environment with java?

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Mike 
Alexander
Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 6:11 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [H390-MTS] What changes were made to Assembler H to 
support MTS and can those be ported to, say Assembler G?

There are a number of interesting questions here, I'll see what I can 
do to answer some of them.

Assembling parts of MTS with ASMG is not going to be easy, or even possible.
There are other 370 assemblers that are closer to ASMH which might be 
a better starting point.  There have been a number of discussions 
about this on various Hercules or MTS lists.

The ASMH in MTS is about three generations removed from ASMG.  First 
you have the extensive changes to the language IBM made.  Then there 
are a number of changes made at Stanford University.  The MTS version 
is based on the Stanford version with more changes.  The update files 
in MTS go from the IBM version through all these changes to the MTS version.
There are about 50 files containing well over 10,000 lines, probably 
at least twice that or more..  And tthe starting point (IBM ASMH) is 
only distantly related to ASMG.

There is a list of all the changes to the language between the IBM and 
MTS versions of ASMH in MTS Volume 14 on page 18.  It contains 27 
items over 7 pages.  Some are trivial, but some aren't, for example 
number 19 describes forward references on ORG statements which are 
used in a number of macros in MTS.

The  expression  on an ORG statement can contain symbols not yet 
defined in the program.  There must be exactly one way in  which the 
locations  counters can be assigned, i.e., the ORGs must be 
resolvable and unambiguous.Number 25 and 26 describe significant extensions to USING statements 
and the resolution of base/displacement values through them which are 
used extensively in MTS.  These two points take up about 4 pages.

This section of Vol 14 only describes language changes, not other 
changes such as the PEXIT parameter which is used to improve the printed listing.

PISTLE is the Post IPL system loader.  It loads code into shared VM 
during startup or later when run by a system programmer.  It is not 
related to RAMROD.  There is a command macro to invoke it somewhere, perhaps in MTS:CMDMACLIB.
During startup it is invoked from *S2L.
Installing something loaded by PISTLE simply means copying the new 
object to whatever file *S2L loads it from.

PISTLE is related to the NAS loader which loads things into Named 
Address Spaces.  NASes are preloaded segments of storage which can be 
attached to MTS tasks as required.  For example ASMH is loaded into a 
NAS and *ASMH is a small driver program which attaches the NAX and 
calls it.  I think these existed in D6, they are used extensively in the 1996 system.

D6 doesn't have working IP support, the Internet was pretty new in 1988.
  As a side note it was sometime in 1989 that I put the first IP 
packets on an ethernet at the University of London, somewhat to the 
consternation of the local network support folks who thought that 
TCP/IP would swamp the ethernet and were surprised when it didn't  The 
1996 system has decent support for the Internet as it existed then 
(i.e. no encryption of any sort).  This requires changes to Hercules which are almost done.

I hope this helps a bit.

Mike

On 5 Jun 2023, at 22:09, John Palmer wrote:

Just wondering what changes were made to Assembler-H to make it 
support MTS and could those be ported to Assembler-G.

Are there any other assemblers that work on MTS that could be 
modified easier?

I got a bunch of rates stuff assembled successfully with Assembler G 
after modifying some of the macros.  The final piece is RNBRSUB. I 
wrote a local copy with my own billing classes, but it

Has a bunch of includes that I have to restore from the distribution 
tapes.  Not sure there are landmines in there.

Comments in RNBRSUB say it can be installed with Pistle, which I 
assume is a way to hot-swap system components without an IPL. Is 
there some documentation on this? To install it permanently, I 
assume I use RAMROD.

On TCP/IP – are there any Telnet connections configured in the d6.0A 
TABLES?  If I use Mike Alexander’s current code, will I be able to 
test out internet stuff with d6.0A?

Anxiously awaiting d7.0, especially Confer. ?

Re: What changes were made to Assembler H to support MTS and can those be ported to, say Assembler G?

#139

Mike,
Rather than mess with one of the assemblers running on the "Mainframe" would it be easier to modify the Z390 assembler which is written in Java and runs on any environment with java?

Dave

Show quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Mike
Alexander
Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 6:11 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [H390-MTS] What changes were made to Assembler H to support
MTS and can those be ported to, say Assembler G?

There are a number of interesting questions here, I'll see what I can do to
answer some of them.

Assembling parts of MTS with ASMG is not going to be easy, or even possible.
There are other 370 assemblers that are closer to ASMH which might be a better
starting point.  There have been a number of discussions about this on various
Hercules or MTS lists.

The ASMH in MTS is about three generations removed from ASMG.  First you
have the extensive changes to the language IBM made.  Then there are a
number of changes made at Stanford University.  The MTS version is based on
the Stanford version with more changes.  The update files in MTS go from the
IBM version through all these changes to the MTS version.
There are about 50 files containing well over 10,000 lines, probably at least
twice that or more..  And tthe starting point (IBM ASMH) is only distantly related
to ASMG.

There is a list of all the changes to the language between the IBM and MTS
versions of ASMH in MTS Volume 14 on page 18.  It contains 27 items over 7
pages.  Some are trivial, but some aren't, for example number 19 describes
forward references on ORG statements which are used in a number of macros in
MTS.

The  expression  on an ORG statement can contain symbols not yet
defined in the program.  There must be exactly one way in  which the
locations  counters can be assigned, i.e., the ORGs must be resolvable
and unambiguous.Number 25 and 26 describe significant extensions to USING statements and the
resolution of base/displacement values through them which are used extensively
in MTS.  These two points take up about 4 pages.

This section of Vol 14 only describes language changes, not other changes such
as the PEXIT parameter which is used to improve the printed listing.

PISTLE is the Post IPL system loader.  It loads code into shared VM during startup
or later when run by a system programmer.  It is not related to RAMROD.  There
is a command macro to invoke it somewhere, perhaps in MTS:CMDMACLIB.
During startup it is invoked from *S2L.
Installing something loaded by PISTLE simply means copying the new object to
whatever file *S2L loads it from.

PISTLE is related to the NAS loader which loads things into Named Address
Spaces.  NASes are preloaded segments of storage which can be attached to
MTS tasks as required.  For example ASMH is loaded into a NAS and *ASMH is a
small driver program which attaches the NAX and calls it.  I think these existed in
D6, they are used extensively in the 1996 system.

D6 doesn't have working IP support, the Internet was pretty new in 1988.
  As a side note it was sometime in 1989 that I put the first IP packets on an
ethernet at the University of London, somewhat to the consternation of the
local network support folks who thought that TCP/IP would swamp the ethernet
and were surprised when it didn't  The 1996 system has decent support for the
Internet as it existed then (i.e. no encryption of any sort).  This requires changes
to Hercules which are almost done.

I hope this helps a bit.

Mike

On 5 Jun 2023, at 22:09, John Palmer wrote:

Just wondering what changes were made to Assembler-H to make it
support MTS and could those be ported to Assembler-G.

Are there any other assemblers that work on MTS that could be modified
easier?

I got a bunch of rates stuff assembled successfully with Assembler G
after modifying some of the macros.  The final piece is RNBRSUB. I
wrote a local copy with my own billing classes, but it

Has a bunch of includes that I have to restore from the distribution
tapes.  Not sure there are landmines in there.

Comments in RNBRSUB say it can be installed with Pistle, which I
assume is a way to hot-swap system components without an IPL. Is there
some documentation on this? To install it permanently, I assume I use
RAMROD.

On TCP/IP – are there any Telnet connections configured in the d6.0A
TABLES?  If I use Mike Alexander’s current code, will I be able to
test out internet stuff with d6.0A?

Anxiously awaiting d7.0, especially Confer. ?

Re: What changes were made to Assembler H to support MTS and can those be ported to, say Assembler G?

#138

There are a number of interesting questions here, I'll see what I can do
to answer some of them.
Assembling parts of MTS with ASMG is not going to be easy, or even
possible.  There are other 370 assemblers that are closer to ASMH which
might be a better starting point.  There have been a number of
discussions about this on various Hercules or MTS lists.
The ASMH in MTS is about three generations removed from ASMG.  First you
have the extensive changes to the language IBM made.  Then there are a
number of changes made at Stanford University.  The MTS version is based
on the Stanford version with more changes.  The update files in MTS go
from the IBM version through all these changes to the MTS version.

There are about 50 files containing well over 10,000 lines, probably at
least twice that or more..  And tthe starting point (IBM ASMH) is only
distantly related to ASMG.
There is a list of all the changes to the language between the IBM and
MTS versions of ASMH in MTS Volume 14 on page 18.  It contains 27 items
over 7 pages.  Some are trivial, but some aren't, for example number 19
describes forward references on ORG statements which are used in a
number of macros in MTS.
The  expression  on an ORG statement can contain symbols not yet
defined in the program.  There must be exactly one way in  which the

locations  counters can be assigned, i.e., the ORGs must be resolvable
and unambiguous.
Number 25 and 26 describe significant extensions to USING statements and
the resolution of base/displacement values through them which are used
extensively in MTS.  These two points take up about 4 pages.
This section of Vol 14 only describes language changes, not other
changes such as the PEXIT parameter which is used to improve the printed
listing.
PISTLE is the Post IPL system loader.  It loads code into shared VM
during startup or later when run by a system programmer.  It is not
related to RAMROD.  There is a command macro to invoke it somewhere,
perhaps in MTS:CMDMACLIB.  During startup it is invoked from *S2L.

Installing something loaded by PISTLE simply means copying the new
object to whatever file *S2L loads it from.
PISTLE is related to the NAS loader which loads things into Named
Address Spaces.  NASes are preloaded segments of storage which can be
attached to MTS tasks as required.  For example ASMH is loaded into a
NAS and *ASMH is a small driver program which attaches the NAX and calls
it.  I think these existed in D6, they are used extensively in the 1996
system.
D6 doesn't have working IP support, the Internet was pretty new in 1988.
  As a side note it was sometime in 1989 that I put the first IP packets
on an ethernet at the University of London, somewhat to the
consternation of the local network support folks who thought that TCP/IP
would swamp the ethernet and were surprised when it didn't  The 1996
system has decent support for the Internet as it existed then (i.e. no
encryption of any sort).  This requires changes to Hercules which are
almost done.
I hope this helps a bit.
Mike
On 5 Jun 2023, at 22:09, John Palmer wrote:
Just wondering what changes were made to Assembler-H to make it
support MTS and could those be ported to Assembler-G.
Are there any other assemblers that work on MTS that could be modified
easier?
I got a bunch of rates stuff assembled successfully with Assembler G
after modifying some of the macros.? The final piece is RNBRSUB. I
wrote a local copy with my own billing classes, but it
Has a bunch of includes that I have to restore from the distribution
tapes.? Not sure there are landmines in there.
Comments in RNBRSUB say it can be installed with Pistle, which I
assume is a way to hot-swap system components without an IPL. Is there
some documentation on this? To install it permanently, I assume I use
RAMROD.
On TCP/IP – are there any Telnet connections configured in the d6.0A
TABLES?? If I use Mike Alexander’s current code, will I be able to
test out internet stuff with d6.0A?
Anxiously awaiting d7.0, especially Confer. ?

What changes were made to Assembler H to support MTS and can those be ported to, say Assembler G?

#137

开云体育

Just wondering what changes were made to Assembler-H to make it support MTS and could those be ported to Assembler-G.

Are there any other assemblers that work on MTS that could be modified easier?

?

I got a bunch of rates stuff assembled successfully with Assembler G after modifying some of the macros.? The final piece is RNBRSUB. I wrote a local copy with my own billing classes, but it

Has a bunch of includes that I have to restore from the distribution tapes.? Not sure there are landmines in there.

?

Comments in RNBRSUB say it can be installed with Pistle, which I assume is a way to hot-swap system components without an IPL. Is there some documentation on this? To install it permanently, I assume I use RAMROD.

On TCP/IP – are there any Telnet connections configured in the d6.0A TABLES?? If I use Mike Alexander’s current code, will I be able to test out internet stuff with d6.0A?

?

Anxiously awaiting d7.0, especially Confer. ?