Re: [hercules-390] HIM Support for Hercules 4.8
Fish's description is correct, but unfortunately it's only half the story. It wxplains how to configure HIM support in Hercules, but you also have to configure it in MTS. The D6.0 MTS device configuration doesn't contain any HIM devices. This is because we (perhaps incorrectly) didn't think that the D6 version of MTS supported them. I was surprised to discover recently that there is a version of the HIM code on the D6 tapes, but I don't know to what extent it works. We could, of corse, find out, but I'd rather spend my time working on getting the 1996 system out than tweaking D6.0.
The three types of HIM devices are all the same in Hercules. TheMTS device type is used to select the appropriate DSP for the connection (Telnet, TCP, or UDP). While you can use the MTS Mount command to allocate one of these, this is not usually necessary since the command you are using allocates them implicitly. For example the FTP command allocates various TCP and Telnet devices as appropriate.
Mike
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On 29 Jan 2025, at 22:38, Fish Fish via groups.io wrote:
John Palmer wrote:
[...]
Do you have the proper settings for the hercules.cnf to activate
the HIM code for d6.0?
Hi John!
While Mike would certainly be the person to provide a definitive answer to that, I believe I might be able to help you, having reviewed his code before having approved it for inclusion into Hercules.
If you take a look at "Supported Device Types" table on our Configuration File web page (), you will see there are three new device types that are now supported: TLNT, TCPH and UDPH.
While I have no idea what the difference is between the three (since I know absolutely nothing about MTS!), if you click on the link provided in the "Emulated by" column, it should take you to:
where it states:
"These device types emulate the Host Interface Machine (HIM)
devices that are used to connect a host running The Michigan
Terminal System (MTS) to the Internet. The device type (TLNT,
TCPH, or UDPH) should match the device type configured into MTS."
"The only parameter is the IP address the emulated interface
should bind to."
So simply defining one or more of those devices in your Hercules configuration files looks like all you need to activate the new HIM code. Herc's sample configuration even lists three examples:
621-62B UDPH 10.0.0.46
62C-643 TLNT 10.0.0.46
644-64F TCPH 10.0.0.46
As I said, I don't know the particulars regarding which type to use nor how many of them you need to define (since that's an MTS thing), I suspect anyone familiar with MTS, such as you, would know.
Hope that helps!
I know the TCP/IP support in d6.0 is primitive, but I'd like to
play around with it.
So would I! But I know absolutely NOTHING about MTS, and unfortunately don't really have the time to learn it. :(
(That's the drawback of being a Hercules developer: you spend all your time working on Hercules with no free time left over to actually PLAY with Hercules! It's you Hercules users that get to have all the fun.)
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
mail: fish@...
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Re: [hercules-390] HIM Support for Hercules 4.8
John Palmer wrote: [...] Do you have the proper settings for the hercules.cnf to activate
the HIM code for d6.0? Hi John! While Mike would certainly be the person to provide a definitive answer to that, I believe I might be able to help you, having reviewed his code before having approved it for inclusion into Hercules. If you take a look at "Supported Device Types" table on our Configuration File web page (), you will see there are three new device types that are now supported: TLNT, TCPH and UDPH. While I have no idea what the difference is between the three (since I know absolutely *nothing* about MTS!), if you click on the link provided in the "Emulated by" column, it should take you to: * where it states: "These device types emulate the Host Interface Machine (HIM) devices that are used to connect a host running The Michigan Terminal System (MTS) to the Internet. The device type (TLNT, TCPH, or UDPH) should match the device type configured into MTS." "The only parameter is the IP address the emulated interface should bind to." So simply defining one or more of those devices in your Hercules configuration files looks like all you need to activate the new HIM code. Herc's sample configuration even lists three examples: 621-62B UDPH 10.0.0.46 62C-643 TLNT 10.0.0.46 644-64F TCPH 10.0.0.46 As I said, I don't know the particulars regarding which type to use nor how many of them you need to define (since that's an MTS thing), I suspect anyone familiar with MTS, such as you, would know. Hope that helps! I know the TCP/IP support in d6.0 is primitive, but I'd like to
play around with it. So would I! But I know absolutely NOTHING about MTS, and unfortunately don't really have the time to learn it. :( (That's the drawback of being a Hercules developer: you spend all your time working on Hercules with no free time left over to actually PLAY with Hercules! It's you Hercules users that get to have all the fun.) -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@...
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Re: [hercules-390] HIM Support for Hercules 4.8
Looks like your pull request has been committed to the development branch of Hercules.
?
It looks like the d6.0 distribution has support for TCP/IP. The Telnet manager is running (*TCM file job).??
?
Do you have the proper settings for the hercules.cnf to activate the HIM code for d6.0???
?
I know the? TCP/IP support in d6.0 is primitive, but I'd like to play around with it.
?
Thanks
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Re: [hercules-390] HIM Support for Hercules 4.8
Thanks for your effort on this,? Mike.? I'm sure just about everything else takes precedence over this.?
?
John
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Re: [hercules-390] HIM Support for Hercules 4.8
I just submitted a pull request for the HIM code. I'm sure there will be issues with it. I'll fix them as soon as I can, but note that I will be out of town with limited network access from this Monday (Oct 28) through November 17.
The source branch for the pull is MTS-HIM-device on my fork at git@...:mtalexander/SDL-hyperion.git.
Mike
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On 30 Sep 2024, at 10:39, John Palmer wrote:
Just wondering about the status of the code merge for Hercules.?
?
Are there still unresolved issues with getting the HIM code to work with modern Hercules???
?
If the current code with HIM support is available in a GIT repository somewhere, I'd be willing to take a look at it.? I've done C/C++ programming in the past
?
John
(also posted to H390-MTS)
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Will HIM support be ready for Hercules 4.8?
Just wondering about the status of the code merge for Hercules.?
?
Are there still unresolved issues with getting the HIM code to work with modern Hercules???
?
If the current code with HIM support is available in a GIT repository somewhere, I'd be willing to take a look at it.? I've done C/C++ programming in the past
?
John
?
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Is there a version of Java that runs on MTS
Does anyone know if there was an effort to create a Java JVM for MTS?? If so, does anyone know if the effort was a success and is its available somewhere?
------- Forwarded Message -------
From: Lucien Hoydic <illuce@...>
Date: On Friday, September 20th, 2024 at 1:34 PM
Subject: Is there a version of Java that runs on MTS
To: [email protected] < [email protected]>
Does anyone know if there was an effort to create a Java JVM for MTS?? If so, does anyone know if the effort was a success and is its available somewhere? ?
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Re: Is there a newer version of MTS available
No release date has been set yet. I'll let you know when we get closer.
Mike
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On 15 Aug 2024, at 1:04, Lucien Hoydic wrote:
Hello:
Just wondering when the newest version of MTS will be released for Hercules. Going over the messages on the list, I wasn't able to find a release date.
Thank You?
--Lucien
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Is there a newer version of MTS available
Hello:
Just wondering when the newest version of MTS will be released for Hercules. Going over the messages on the list, I wasn't able to find a release date.
Thank You? --Lucien
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Re: Where is COPY:GLOBALS?
OK - It's good to know that they aren't necessarily in files with the same name.
Thanks for your help. Wish I could help more with the d1996 stuff.
John
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Re: Where is COPY:GLOBALS?
I'm leaving for a couple of weeks tomorrow and didn't have time to reply to this before leaving. This is, perhaps oddly, one of the more difficult pieces to rebuild. Most if not all, of those copy sections exist somewhere, usually as part of a macro library. Don't be fooled by the name that looks like a file name. Once upon a time it probably was a file name, but later the name just became an entry in a library dictionary. I'l try to be more helpful when I get back.
Mike
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On 4 Jun 2024, at 10:53, John Palmer wrote:
Hmm, its still missing some things. The code I am assembling may be old and it may even need some of the ASMH mods that we don't have.
Its actually called RNBRSUB - the routine that is called to determine a user's rate number (index into RATEVEC) . It also produces the signon "herald" string that tells a user what their session rate will be (i.e. "Terminal,Normal,Univeristy,UM").
Right now, there is a dummy RNBRSUB installed that always returns a rate number of 1 and the herald string "No Charges".
These are the includes it uses.. Most of them don't exist.
?# ed rnbrle#sa ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
?: ?sc@all /f 'COPY' ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
?: ? ? 12 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?COPY ?COPY:SECTIONS*SAL(1600) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
?: ? ? 24 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?COPY ?BNCH:LLMPSEQU(100) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
?: ? ? 25 ? ? * ? ? ? ?COPY ?*CNFGINFODSECT ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
?: ? ? 26 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?COPY ?COPY:JOBSTA ? ? ? ? the jobstatus vector?
?: ? ? 28 ? ? * ? ? ? ?COPY ?COPY:LLMPSEQU(100) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
?: ? ? 29 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?COPY ?*CNFGINFODSECT ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
?: ? ? 30 ? ? * ? ? ? ?COPY ?COPY:JOBSTA ? ? ? ? the jobstatus vector?
?: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
The BNCH:LLMPSEQU(100) I found on my own, not sure if its the correct LLMPSEQU or not.
John
On Sun, May 5, 2024 at 05:17 PM, Mike Alexander wrote:
That file (copy:globals) along with quite a few others, is now part of the macro library called COPY:SECTIONS*SAL. See the comments for component 4215 in the driver file for more info. These comments talk about using this with ASMG, by the way. Sorry for the confusion. We should probably talk about this in the notes, but I had forgotten about this change until I looked at the driver file.
Mike
On 5 May 2024, at 16:21, John Palmer wrote:
Another wonky question:
I was fiddling around with RNBRSUB and tried to write my own with custom billing classes. I already generated a *RATEFILE with the values that I want, but I need to replace RNBRSUB with a real one.
?
I have the one that UM used - its complicated with rates for a bunch of different host and machine combinations. I simplified it for my purposes but it refences COPY:GLOBALS, which I cannot find in
d6.0 nor in the index of files on the distribution tapes.?
?
There is a BNCH: GLOBALS, but this doesn't seem to have some of the definitions I need and somewhere in there it reference COPY:GLOBALS* files that don't exist. I'm not even sure I can assemble it with?
*ASMG, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
Thanks
?
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Re: Where is COPY:GLOBALS?
Hmm, its still missing some things. The code I am assembling may be old and it may even need some of the ASMH mods that we don't have.
Its actually called RNBRSUB - the routine that is called to determine a user's rate number (index into RATEVEC) . It also produces the signon "herald" string that tells a user what their session rate will be (i.e. "Terminal,Normal,Univeristy,UM").
Right now, there is a dummy RNBRSUB installed that always returns a rate number of 1 and the herald string "No Charges".
These are the includes it uses.. Most of them don't exist.
?# ed rnbrle#sa ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
?: ?sc@all /f 'COPY' ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
?: ? ? 12 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?COPY ?COPY:SECTIONS*SAL(1600) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
?: ? ? 24 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?COPY ?BNCH:LLMPSEQU(100) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
?: ? ? 25 ? ? * ? ? ? ?COPY ?*CNFGINFODSECT ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
?: ? ? 26 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?COPY ?COPY:JOBSTA ? ? ? ? the jobstatus vector?
?: ? ? 28 ? ? * ? ? ? ?COPY ?COPY:LLMPSEQU(100) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
?: ? ? 29 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?COPY ?*CNFGINFODSECT ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
?: ? ? 30 ? ? * ? ? ? ?COPY ?COPY:JOBSTA ? ? ? ? the jobstatus vector?
?: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
The BNCH:LLMPSEQU(100) I found on my own, not sure if its the correct LLMPSEQU or not.
John
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On Sun, May 5, 2024 at 05:17 PM, Mike Alexander wrote:
That file (copy:globals) along with quite a few others, is now part of the macro library called COPY:SECTIONS*SAL. See the comments for component 4215 in the driver file for more info. These comments talk about using this with ASMG, by the way. Sorry for the confusion. We should probably talk about this in the notes, but I had forgotten about this change until I looked at the driver file.
Mike
On 5 May 2024, at 16:21, John Palmer wrote:
Another wonky question:
I was fiddling around with RNBRSUB and tried to write my own with custom billing classes. I already generated a *RATEFILE with the values that I want, but I need to replace RNBRSUB with a real one.
?
I have the one that UM used - its complicated with rates for a bunch of different host and machine combinations. I simplified it for my purposes but it refences COPY:GLOBALS, which I cannot find in
d6.0 nor in the index of files on the distribution tapes.?
?
There is a BNCH: GLOBALS, but this doesn't seem to have some of the definitions I need and somewhere in there it reference COPY:GLOBALS* files that don't exist. I'm not even sure I can assemble it with?
*ASMG, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
Thanks
?
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Re: Where is COPY:GLOBALS?
On 18 May 2024, at 13:42, John Palmer wrote:
Do you have a link for some of those proceedings?? Since
archive.michigan-terminal-system.org isn't online, there isn't a
common repository of links.? The Wayback Machine (archive.org) has a
lot of broken links.
Not off the top of my head. That's another thing I want to work on.
Mike
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Re: Where is COPY:GLOBALS?
On Sat, May 18, 2024 at 12:02 AM, Mike Alexander wrote:
On 18 May 2024, at 0:22, John Palmer wrote:
I imagine there are some hooks to handle the surcharge mechanism.? As
I recall, it was an hourly charge for using Confer.??
There wasn't a surcharge, at least not for most users, at UM. I presume
the hooks are there but disabled.
At Wayne State, students and other university folks didn't have a surcharge, but commercial customers did.? WSU made some extra cash selling computer time to companies and the government. The U.S. Army was a big Confer user at WSU.? Speaking of Wayne State, are there any WSU folks on this list? I know Tom Stevenson is around still - he is either retired or getting ready to retire. Also, I thought I saw Steve Gold's name somewhere. There seems to be a lack of info online about the computing history at WSU, although Simmon's "Computer Comics" are still available.
As for those MTS design / development *FORUM conferences, it would be
great to get those files.? I haven't looked into the file format for
*FORUM, but it keeps some files under ETC. Not sure how easy it would
be to install existing conferences into another MTS instance, but
those design conferences would be very educational and would be a
great resource for people to search for answers.
I have printouts of the final state of most of these *Forum conferences.
I think copies of these may be online somewhere but I'm not sure
where. If not they probably could be, assuming everyone is ok with
that. The MTS Workshop proceedings are definitely online and they
provide much of the same info in a somewhat more formal manner.
Do you have a link for some of those proceedings?? Since archive.michigan-terminal-system.org isn't online, there isn't a common repository of links.? The Wayback Machine (archive.org) has a lot of broken links.
Mike
John
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Re: Where is COPY:GLOBALS?
On 18 May 2024, at 0:22, John Palmer wrote:
Its great that he will join.?
Did Bob Parnes leave behind the source code? That may be interesting
to see.
I think so, but I don't know for sure.
I imagine there are some hooks to handle the surcharge mechanism.? As
I recall, it was an hourly charge for using Confer.??
There wasn't a surcharge, at least not for most users, at UM. I presume
the hooks are there but disabled.
As for those MTS design / development *FORUM conferences, it would be
great to get those files.? I haven't looked into the file format for
*FORUM, but it keeps some files under ETC. Not sure how easy it would
be to install existing conferences into another MTS instance, but
those design conferences would be very educational and would be a
great resource for people to search for answers.
I have printouts of the final state of most of these *Forum conferences.
I think copies of these may be online somewhere but I'm not sure
where. If not they probably could be, assuming everyone is ok with
that. The MTS Workshop proceedings are definitely online and they
provide much of the same info in a somewhat more formal manner.
Mike
|
Re: Where is COPY:GLOBALS?
Its great that he will join.?
Did Bob Parnes leave behind the source code? That may be interesting to see.
I imagine there are some hooks to handle the surcharge mechanism.? As I recall, it was an hourly charge for using Confer.??
As for those MTS design / development *FORUM conferences, it would be great to get those files.? I haven't looked into the file format for *FORUM, but it keeps some files under ETC. Not sure how easy it would be to install existing conferences into another MTS instance, but those design conferences would be very educational and would be a great resource for people to search for answers.
John
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On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 09:34 PM, Mike Alexander wrote:
I finally got a chance to talk to Jeff about this. He says he is not a member of this list but should be and will join it. The Confer files are a bit disorganized, but probably complete. He got it running but perhaps not quite the way it was intended to be installed. He needs to refresh his memory and clean things up for release.
We also have *Forum which is the replacement system used more by the people developing MTS. We also have all (or most of) the files related to the individual conferences related to MTS development.
Mike
On 9 May 2024, at 11:23, John Palmer wrote:
If Jeff has the files, I'd volunteer to test them out if he has them in an .aws tape file. Is Jeff a member of this group?? On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 10:56 PM, Mike Alexander wrote:
The 1996 version needs more work before we can release it. There are about 35,000 files that are either on the 1996 system or the D6 disk packs. We need to go through this list and decide which files really need to be there. There are a number of files missing and a lot of files that shouldn't be there. For example my EMail archive from 1996 probably shouldn't be included.
Jeff has the files necessary to install Confer and some instructions on how to do so. I don't think he had tried to do that yet, but I doubt that it will be hard.
The web site will be moved somewhere else. I have a copy of it but I don't know how much work it will be to relocate it.
All of these things are on my list and I'll try to make progress on at least some of them soon.
Mike
On 6 May 2024, at 10:46, John Palmer wrote:
Thanks for all the effort on this.? Is the d1996 distribution assembled for Hercules? Just wondering if you got Confer to work on it.? I noticed the archive.michigan-terminal-system.org DNS still points to Google.? Are you going to move to another provider or stick with Google? On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 09:04 AM, Thomas Valerio wrote:
It is done. I have been sitting on a couple of trivial changes for it to
compile on Windows for several months now. I also feel I need to put
together some other information regarding discussions about the code to
give to Mike before he pushes it on. Sorry for the delays.
Tom Valerio
How is the Hercules HIM code coming? Are you still having some trouble
getting it to work with SDL Hercules?
?
?
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Re: Where is COPY:GLOBALS?
I finally got a chance to talk to Jeff about this. He says he is not a member of this list but should be and will join it. The Confer files are a bit disorganized, but probably complete. He got it running but perhaps not quite the way it was intended to be installed. He needs to refresh his memory and clean things up for release.
We also have *Forum which is the replacement system used more by the people developing MTS. We also have all (or most of) the files related to the individual conferences related to MTS development.
Mike
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On 9 May 2024, at 11:23, John Palmer wrote:
If Jeff has the files, I'd volunteer to test them out if he has them in an .aws tape file.
Is Jeff a member of this group??
On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 10:56 PM, Mike Alexander wrote:
The 1996 version needs more work before we can release it. There are about 35,000 files that are either on the 1996 system or the D6 disk packs. We need to go through this list and decide which files really need to be there. There are a number of files missing and a lot of files that shouldn't be there. For example my EMail archive from 1996 probably shouldn't be included.
Jeff has the files necessary to install Confer and some instructions on how to do so. I don't think he had tried to do that yet, but I doubt that it will be hard.
The web site will be moved somewhere else. I have a copy of it but I don't know how much work it will be to relocate it.
All of these things are on my list and I'll try to make progress on at least some of them soon.
Mike
On 6 May 2024, at 10:46, John Palmer wrote:
Thanks for all the effort on this.?
Is the d1996 distribution assembled for Hercules? Just wondering if you got Confer to work on it.?
I noticed the archive.michigan-terminal-system.org DNS still points to Google.? Are you going to move to another provider or stick with Google?
On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 09:04 AM, Thomas Valerio wrote:
It is done. I have been sitting on a couple of trivial changes for it to
compile on Windows for several months now. I also feel I need to put
together some other information regarding discussions about the code to
give to Mike before he pushes it on. Sorry for the delays.
Tom Valerio
How is the Hercules HIM code coming? Are you still having some trouble
getting it to work with SDL Hercules?
?
|
Re: Where is COPY:GLOBALS?
If Jeff has the files, I'd volunteer to test them out if he has them in an .aws tape file.
Is Jeff a member of this group??
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On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 10:56 PM, Mike Alexander wrote:
The 1996 version needs more work before we can release it. There are about 35,000 files that are either on the 1996 system or the D6 disk packs. We need to go through this list and decide which files really need to be there. There are a number of files missing and a lot of files that shouldn't be there. For example my EMail archive from 1996 probably shouldn't be included.
Jeff has the files necessary to install Confer and some instructions on how to do so. I don't think he had tried to do that yet, but I doubt that it will be hard.
The web site will be moved somewhere else. I have a copy of it but I don't know how much work it will be to relocate it.
All of these things are on my list and I'll try to make progress on at least some of them soon.
Mike
On 6 May 2024, at 10:46, John Palmer wrote:
Thanks for all the effort on this.? Is the d1996 distribution assembled for Hercules? Just wondering if you got Confer to work on it.? I noticed the archive.michigan-terminal-system.org DNS still points to Google.? Are you going to move to another provider or stick with Google? On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 09:04 AM, Thomas Valerio wrote:
It is done. I have been sitting on a couple of trivial changes for it to
compile on Windows for several months now. I also feel I need to put
together some other information regarding discussions about the code to
give to Mike before he pushes it on. Sorry for the delays.
Tom Valerio
How is the Hercules HIM code coming? Are you still having some trouble
getting it to work with SDL Hercules?
?
|
Re: Where is COPY:GLOBALS?
On 7 May 2024, at 7:08, Bile Geek wrote:
For example my EMail archive from 1996
probably shouldn't be included.
For privacy reasons, or just reducing clutter? If the latter, would it
be available separately? Sounds like an interesting artifact.
Mostly for privacy reasons. I suppose, however, that much of that would
be ok and perhaps interesting to someone. I'll think about it. When I
retired I gave most of my stuff to the Bentley Library which is (among
other things) the official archive site for the University. I don't
recall if my EMail archive was part of that, but I don't think so. It
probably should have been. Most of the MTS related discussions took
place on Confer or *Forum and those conversations are archived.
Mike
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Re: Where is COPY:GLOBALS?
For example my EMail archive from 1996
probably shouldn't be included. For privacy reasons, or just reducing clutter? If the latter, would it be available separately? Sounds like an interesting artifact.
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