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Re: Does d6.0 have any definitions for TCP/IP Services
开云体育On 4/12/24 22:33, John Palmer wrote: On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 08:00 PM, Gregg Levine wrote: I suspect this lack is why there is the effort to support Linux
KVM on current processors.? That eliminates the need for VM for
those interested in virtualizing Linux.? While I doubt is is as
efficient as VM would be, it does address the lack of systems
managers.? KVM is a known quantity in the Linux environment. Does nothing for instances of other OS's on VM.? But that probably has different business drivers with more legacy customers. I have also heard that there is a huge need for those understanding mainframe network administration, Comm Server (as it is called today) and friends.? Separate topic though. Harold Grovesteen |
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Re: Does d6.0 have any definitions for TCP/IP Services
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of John PalmerI believe that it is all about brand image and perception. Anything that has the ability to impair their brand image is forbidden it might affect share value in a bad way. In that environment no one is going to stick their neck out. Dave |
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Re: Does d6.0 have any definitions for TCP/IP Services
On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 08:00 PM, Gregg Levine wrote:
Hello!You wonder why they are that way - they could make a few bucks on selling hobbyist licenses. Who would really want to pay money for the old mainframe software unless they were "software archeologists"? Anyways, hope the HIM code will be out soon.? I assume there are still difficulties getting it working with the new way that Hercules 4.x does TCP/IP. |
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Re: Does d6.0 have any definitions for TCP/IP Services
Hello!
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Dave W is correct, despite the Weeping Angel in his garden, I once asked an IBMer (now retired!) about releasing the rest of the VM/370 content to the community since the base is out in the open. Suffice to say he was hostile to it. Yesterday I raised the point to a different group of IBMers regarding releasing the entire VM/370 kits to a single individual who's responsible for managing it, that individual would be responsible for everything. Next they would convince or confuse IBM Legal to create a sort-of Hobbyist License to manage it, and the MVS code along with it, (Mind I'm still not a full supporter of MVS.) The big problem is that they are aware of the sudden dearth of systems managers for current IBM zVM systems because the schools are not really interested in it. I really do not know what they will do next concerning the whole idea next. ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@... "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again." On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 4:24?AM Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm@...> wrote:
-----Original Message-----I should have said there is a common misconception that VM/370 and pre MVS/SP operating systems are Public Domain because their copyrights have expired. |
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Re: Does d6.0 have any definitions for TCP/IP Services
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Re: Does d6.0 have any definitions for TCP/IP Services
开云体育John, There appears to be some debate, in that explicit regulations for software copyright appeared in 1980, but some lawyers say 1976 is the relevant date. Dave ? ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of John Palmer
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:23 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [H390-MTS] Does d6.0 have any definitions for TCP/IP Services ? Hmm, that means that perhaps *ASMH is free and clear, since I think the IBM product from which it was created predates 1980.? |
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Re: Does d6.0 have any definitions for TCP/IP Services
Hmm, that means that perhaps *ASMH is free and clear, since I think the IBM product from which it was created predates 1980.?
As for things like Pascal (*PASCALVS) and Fortran 77 (*FTNVS), these may have been created after 1980. I'm trying to find the reference that I mentioned in my original post, but haven't been able to find it. It mentioned that IBM let copyright expire on a "slew of old mainframe software products". This was about 4 months ago. I cannot find it anymore but will keep looking. |
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Re: Does d6.0 have any definitions for TCP/IP Services
On 3/27/24 03:24, Dave Wade wrote:
Dave is correct.? And I apologize in advance if none of this is helpful or of interest. If this is TMI for you, stop reading here without missing out on anything.? (I know, why send the email?? I just felt compelled to do so.)-----Original Message-----I should have said there is a common misconception that VM/370 and pre MVS/SP operating systems are Public Domain because their copyrights have expired. Here is some information I have become aware over time. Copyright is not universal! Different jurisdictions have different rules. For example, software copyright did not exist in the U.S. until 1980. See amendments enacted on 12 December, 1980: Other jurisdictions, for example, Great Britain (I believe), software was always able to be copyrighted. IBM marked their programs as copyrighted regardless of jurisdiction to protect it where software copyright was legitimate. So, no matter what software said prior to 1980 IN THE US, the software was not covered by copyright. In effect, this acts like "public domain", but I am not really sure if they are the same. My limitations as "not a lawyer". Additionally, the magic duration for the copyright seems to be 70 years. There are some mention of even longer time frames. So, the earliest copyright in the US, 1980, plus 70 years, puts us at 2050. The picture gets more complicated when considering the IBM consent decree of 1956: This was, of course, as US constraint on IBM from use of monopolistic practices. Welcome the world of Plug Compatible's. It is my understanding that this was the motivation for IBM's creation of two classes of software products: System Products (like OS's) and Program Products (other software). And, note, within the U.S until 1980, none of them were protected by copyright. (This is not to say that a given organization's contract with IBM would not impose protections to those products without US copyright protection used by the customer. An entirely separate topic.) TODAY, IBM is no longer under the consent decree: It ended 2 July, 2001, just in time for the z systems and the gradual disappearance of documentation ever since. Considering we are talking about copyright for products that reside in a system with TCPIP support, MTS, the Internet Engineering Task Force started operation in 1986: TCP/IP essentially was created by these standards. Those other, Program Products, are in all likelihood under copyright protections. Harold Grovesteen |
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Re: Does d6.0 have any definitions for TCP/IP Services
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-----Original Message-----I should have said there is a common misconception that VM/370 and pre MVS/SP operating systems are Public Domain because their copyrights have expired. This isn't true, these products never were copyright, they always were public domain. If the copyright on the first Mickey Mouse film has just expired IBM software is going to remain copyright until long after I am pushing up daisies. DaveDave |
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Re: Does d6.0 have any definitions for TCP/IP Services
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-----Original Message-----Not a chance. The only mainframe code IBM has "released to the public" was APL but its not public domain, it’s a very restrictive licence. Modified versions are not allowed so people jump through hoops to provide code to patch it. Dave G4UGM |
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Re: Does d6.0 have any definitions for TCP/IP Services
You're right, D6 seems to contain some version of the HIM code. This is a surprise to me, I had thought all this time that it didn't appear in MTS until later. The ultimate reference for questions like this is the driver file which is guaranteed to be correct since it was used to write the tapes and disk pack. It contains entries for the HIM code. I don't know how well it works in that version, but there is at least some chance that D6 will support TCP connections in Hercules when the HIM code is finished. The copyright question is complicated. It's also not the only question that is relevant, either. There may be other legal restrictions that apply to these programs. Do you have any reference for the idea that IBM let these go into the public domain? Mike On 22 Mar 2024, at 11:25, John Palmer wrote:
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Does d6.0 have any definitions for TCP/IP Services
When I load d6.0, it starts a Telnet server task and the IPL info shows it attempting to activate telnet connections, but says that none are available.
Is that because TABLES doesn't have any defined, or that the HIM support is not present in the current version of Hercules? Just wondering if any TCP/IP services would work under d6.0 with the version of TABLES installed in that system under newer Hercules once the HIM support is installed. Finally, has there been any change about the licensing of IBM software like *PASCALVS, *FTNVS and *ASMH?? I read somewhere that IBM let a bunch of stuff fall out of copyright, but not sure if it affects availability of these |
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Re: Which Hercules version for d7.0?
My experience with d6.0 under Hercules is that the system can stay up about two weeks before it will crash. The crash takes the form of a super-dump and is triggered by someone trying to sign into an already existing terminal line task. ? So, if I sign off of that terminal and try to sign back in to any user, it will cause a super-dump. ??I never leave an instance up more than 10 days without reloading. ? Sounds like Tom’s fixes were in code released after d6.0. Not sure if the issue he fixed is causing my issues. Douglas Wade wrote: |
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Re: Which Hercules version for d7.0?
Douglas Wade wrote:
> Off topic I know, but running MTS under Hercules and getting a week of uptime probably pretty much matches the real mainframe experience. At UBC the maximum uptime was something like 7 days when the system shutdown to clients? for a total (weekly) file save followed by an IPL. I am commenting on an ancient thread (from last April), I thought I had re-registered for this group when it switched to groups.io but apparently I did not.? I am really only responding to the comment made by Douglas Wade, (and only for historical completeness) but if you want to see the entire thread see the link at the very bottom. tl;dr: There is no longer any time limit (that I am aware of) on how long MTS/UMMPS can run without experiencing a non-recoverable program interrupt while in supervisor state.? Just to be clear though, this is with regard to weeks and/or months of up time, not years and/or decades. If I recall correctly, I am pretty sure that at U of M we did not routinely re-ipl after filesave every week, so in the early 1990's when there was somewhat less development work going on, the system would generally stay up for multiple weeks at a time.? There was however a supervisor intertask code bug that would cause a crash approximately 2,147,483,647 (2^31 - 1) milliseconds, or 24.85 days after ipl due to an uncaught fixed point divide overflow in the supervisor intertask module.? This bug obviously also exists in the supervisor that was distributed as part of D6.0. ? In September of 1993, I made a quick fix to the code and changed the variable that caused the fixed point divide exception from a 32 bit signed integer to a 32 bit *unsigned* integer, which obviously doubled the possible system up time from 24.85 days to 49.71 days.? After MTS was shutdown for general use at U of M, it continued to be run on a couple of Flex-ES systems as well as obviously on Hercules.? With even less of a reason to reboot the system on any kind of regular schedule, in August of 2015 I coded a more permanent fix for the problem (I think, I haven't done any 2042 TOD clock rollover testing (and I doubt anyone else has either)). So as of now (if the patch is applied) the supervisor should be able to run indefinitely.? There is one remaining bug in MTS related to this though, if a task that is started at IPL, is left unused, if the system is shutdown after it has been up more than 49.71 days, or an attempt is made to use the task, the unused task will snark.? Any freshly started tasks are unaffected. ?? Thomas Valerio ? ?? /g/H390-MTS/topic/which_hercules_version_for/98115982?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate/sticky,,,20,2,0,98115982,previd%3D1697596044835478369,nextid%3D1672385293156727066&previd=1697596044835478369&nextid=1672385293156727066 |
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Re: A number of questions about MTS.
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-----Original Message-----with D6. I'd rather put my effort into getting the 1996 system out.Well in that case, could we have them in the 1996 system ? MikeDave |
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Re: A number of questions about MTS.
On 31 Jan 2024, at 12:04, Dave Wade wrote:
Sure, some could be added. However we aren't really anxious to do more with D6. I'd rather put my effort into getting the 1996 system out. Mike |
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Re: A number of questions about MTS.
Mike,
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One of the other questions was why are there no 2703 or similar lines defined it the released versions. I know when you did the release there was little support for these in Hercules but we now have support for TELE2, 2741 and 3781 (bi-sync for hasp). These would be useful for TEK4010 or HPGL plotters, so could some be added? Dave -----Original Message-----ready files meant to be copied to a printer.Mac and run LaTex on it there. Of course the version of LaTex and TeX in MTS is30 years old and somewhat incompatible with current versions.with carriage control, into a Postscript file. Back arounda lot more that could be converted. |
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Re: A number of questions about MTS.
On 26 Jan 2024, at 17:35, Bile Geek wrote:
I don't think I answered this question. When MTS was shut down in 1996 Postscript support was mostly complete but not really released yet. However it mostly works. MTS documentation is generally Textform input, LaTex input, or printer ready files meant to be copied to a printer. There is a new version of Textform in NEW:TEXTFORM that will produce Postscript output. DVI files produced by LaTex in MTS can be processed by dvips on a Mac (and presumably elsewhere). It's also possible to copy the LaText file to a Mac and run LaTex on it there. Of course the version of LaTex and TeX in MTS is 30 years old and somewhat incompatible with current versions. I have a version of enscript that will turn an MTS printer file, complete with carriage control, into a Postscript file. Back around 2010 I used a combination of these techniques to convert much of the MTS documentation to PDF files. most of which are available online. There is a lot more that could be converted. Mike |
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Re: A number of questions about MTS.
I have a (very dim) recollection that the 3083 at SFU in 1991 had a whopping 24 MB of memory - but someone else from SFU can correct me if I'm hallucinating again. ;-)
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It's fun to run MTS on a modern machine and give it 128 MB of memory (because I can!) and never have to page. Even when I had it on a Raspberry Pi 1. :-) For serial devices - if someone can generate a system with a 2703, async (and bisync?), would it be possible to get 'physical' async and bisync to work? Or to emulate? I used to have an ITEL/Dura Selectric terminal which would have been fun to watch on MTS again, but even it got consigned to the scrap heap years ago. I do have a couple of old PCs with serial terminal emulators on them, including a multi-window VT100 emulator that I wrote in Turbo Pascal when working on the NIMs. For bisync, 2780 protocol is trivial, and would be easy to emulate - if it isn't already out there in the form that you want. It would probably take a day to make work. 3780 is a little more complex, but still easy. 2703 provided very basic I/O even to video terminals. You could get graphics on a Tektronix 40xx screen, but there was no full screen editing or such. For the UBCnet-style networking you would need a Node and a NIM (hardware or emulated) to get async full-screen terminal support - but x3270 exists now and works. I had thought of running a Node and a NIM in a PDP11 emulator as a masochistical exercise - just to see if it works- but there would still be work in emulating something like an Auscom channel interface in the PDP11 emulator as well, and a way to interface it to Hercules. I have been using some crude scripts'n'tricks to get printouts and file transfers on D6.0 using the bare reader/printer/punch devices since MTS was released for Hercules - until 'real' networking is eventually available. - Richard, VE7CVS On 1/26/24 9:53 PM, Mike Alexander wrote:
We never had anywhere near 32 MB on an MTS machine.? I think the biggest one might have been 8 MB and we supported up to 300 users on that machine (although it was sometimes a struggle).? Whether you would get paging on a 32 MB machine depends, of course, on what people are doing.? I can bog down the paging system all by myself if I want to.? However a few people doing "normal" things won't put a significant paging load on the machine. |
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Re: Some of you are about to be removed from the group
As was mentioned before, the list owner has NO CONTROL over this. Groups.IO is sending out the requests to verify your e-mail address, NOT the list owner of H390-MTS.
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Posting a request on this list will do nothing as the list owners have NO CONTROL over this. If you got a verify request message, respond to it.? On Sun, Jan 28, 2024 at 04:21 PM, Mike Ward wrote: Same here. Please don't bounce me out. |
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