On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 05:53 PM, Mike Alexander wrote:
On 10 Jan 2024, at 10:22, Ron Frederick wrote:
I remember writing C code on MTS before before I left RPI (graduated
in 1989) and I thought I used *C89, but it’s possible it was *C87 or
even possibly CBell. I haven’t had a chance to fire up my MTS
installer here to see what was included in d6.0a, but I found an old
thread
at??which
mentioned that C89 was present but didn’t work yet. I think some of
the reason for that might be a dependency on ASMH.
CBell uses ASMH but C89 does not. I don't think C87 does either, but
I'm not quite sure.
Mike
*C87 isn't in d6.0 but there are several files like *C87INCLUDE and *C87LIB
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On 10 Jan 2024, at 10:22, Ron Frederick wrote:
I remember writing C code on MTS before before I left RPI (graduated
in 1989) and I thought I used *C89, but it’s possible it was *C87 or
even possibly CBell. I haven’t had a chance to fire up my MTS
installer here to see what was included in d6.0a, but I found an old
thread
at?
mentioned that C89 was present but didn’t work yet. I think some of
the reason for that might be a dependency on ASMH.
CBell uses ASMH but C89 does not. I don't think C87 does either, but
I'm not quite sure.
Mike
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I remember writing C code on MTS before before I left RPI (graduated in 1989) and I thought I used *C89, but it’s possible it was *C87 or even possibly CBell. I haven’t had a chance to fire up my MTS installer here to see what was included in d6.0a, but I found an old thread at??which mentioned that C89 was present but didn’t work yet. I think some of the reason for that might be a dependency on ASMH.
On Jan 9, 2024, at 9:16?PM, Mike Alexander <mta@...> wrote: If you look at the comments for component 934 in the D6 driver file you'll see that much of CBell was not distributed due to licensing restrictions. I don't know if we still have it and whether the licensing restriction still apply. CVell also calls ASMH to assemble the compiled program so it won't run on D6 as is. It could perhaps be patched to run ASMG, but that's moot if it's not there at all.
At the time of D6 support for C in MTS was not very good. By 1996 there were (or had been) three C compilers in MTS: CBell, C87, and C89. C89 was pretty good and passed most of the language verification tests. CBell had been retired and C87 was in limbo. Unfortunately I don't think any of these are on D6, either because they didn't exist or due to licensing restrictions. Mike On 9 Jan 2024, at 12:55, Tom Chandler wrote:
Already looked at that.?
CBELL is not even listed.??
However in VOL 2 MTS Documentation there is about
two pages discussing it.? All I can find....
/cheers
/tom c
I am trying to compile a "C" program under MITS 6.0a.? Trying to use
the CBELL compiler.? Not having any success.
As anyone be able to compile "C" using this compiler.
Thank You
Tom c
--?
Ron Frederick
ronf@...
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Mike, Thank you for closing this out for me.? I was hoping that CBELL was included.
Now to plan B, whatever that is....
/cheers /tom c
On Tue, Jan 9, 2024 at 11:16?PM Mike Alexander < mta@...> wrote:
If you look at the comments for component 934 in the D6 driver file you'll see that much of CBell was not distributed due to licensing restrictions. I don't know if we still have it and whether the licensing restriction still apply. CVell also calls ASMH to assemble the compiled program so it won't run on D6 as is. It could perhaps be patched to run ASMG, but that's moot if it's not there at all.
At the time of D6 support for C in MTS was not very good. By 1996 there were (or had been) three C compilers in MTS: CBell, C87, and C89. C89 was pretty good and passed most of the language verification tests. CBell had been retired and C87 was in limbo. Unfortunately I don't think any of these are on D6, either because they didn't exist or due to licensing restrictions.
Mike
On 9 Jan 2024, at 12:55, Tom Chandler wrote:
Already looked at that.?
CBELL is not even listed.??
However in VOL 2 MTS Documentation there is about
two pages discussing it.? All I can find....
/cheers
/tom c
I am trying to compile a "C" program under MITS 6.0a.? Trying to use
the CBELL compiler.? Not having any success.
As anyone be able to compile "C" using this compiler.
Thank You
Tom c
|
If you look at the comments for component 934 in the D6 driver file you'll see that much of CBell was not distributed due to licensing restrictions. I don't know if we still have it and whether the licensing restriction still apply. CVell also calls ASMH to assemble the compiled program so it won't run on D6 as is. It could perhaps be patched to run ASMG, but that's moot if it's not there at all.
At the time of D6 support for C in MTS was not very good. By 1996 there were (or had been) three C compilers in MTS: CBell, C87, and C89. C89 was pretty good and passed most of the language verification tests. CBell had been retired and C87 was in limbo. Unfortunately I don't think any of these are on D6, either because they didn't exist or due to licensing restrictions.
Mike
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On 9 Jan 2024, at 12:55, Tom Chandler wrote:
Already looked at that.?
CBELL is not even listed.??
However in VOL 2 MTS Documentation there is about
two pages discussing it.? All I can find....
/cheers
/tom c
I am trying to compile a "C" program under MITS 6.0a.? Trying to use
the CBELL compiler.? Not having any success.
As anyone be able to compile "C" using this compiler.
Thank You
Tom c
|
Already looked at that.?
CBELL is not even listed.??
However in VOL 2 MTS Documentation there is about two pages discussing it.? All I can find....
/cheers /tom c
I am trying to compile a "C" program under MITS 6.0a.? Trying to use
the CBELL compiler.? Not having any success.
As anyone be able to compile "C" using this compiler.
Thank You
Tom c
|
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I am trying to compile a "C" program under MITS 6.0a.? Trying to use
the CBELL compiler.? Not having any success.
As anyone be able to compile "C" using this compiler.
Thank You
Tom c
|
I am trying to compile a "C" program under MITS 6.0a.? Trying to use
the CBELL compiler.? Not having any success.
As anyone be able to compile "C" using this compiler.
Thank You
Tom c
|
Re: How's the HIM merge into Hercules coming along?
On 12 Oct 2023, at 19:29, John Palmer wrote:
Just wondering how the HIM code merge into Hercules is coming.? I
know there was a flurry of activity last month, but some issues popped
up.
I've been otherwise occupied for the last couple of months, but I'm
anxious to get back on this.
Mike
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How's the HIM merge into Hercules coming along?
Just wondering how the HIM code merge into Hercules is coming.? I know there was a flurry of activity last month, but some issues popped up.
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Re: Issues Running MTS on SDL Hercules (Hyperion) 4.x - Summary of Trials
Fascinating story about bug swatting.
May I suggest the MTS guys (especially Rupert Lane, if he is here) to just add a note to try-mts.com telling people to either avoid Vista or to be careful when using 4.x?
All the best
Marco
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Re: Issues Running MTS on SDL Hercules (Hyperion) 4.x - Summary of Trials
(ATTACHMENTS) Fish wrote: John Palmer wrote:
There is no mode in which using Vista 3270 as the master
console works without causing a superdump in the early
stages of IPL of MTS when running Hercules 4.x. Educate me: what is a "superdump"? And how can I tell it has occurred? Because I finally got around to trying MTS for myself, and it seems to work just fine for me on Windows with Vista 3270. The *only* thing that doesn't work is a 3270 model-5-E (27x132), which causes Vista to complain about an invalid buffer address (see attached). But that's not Vista's problem. That's MTS causing that! And the same thing occurs when I use Hercules 3.13 too! As long as I stick with a model-4-E (43x80) or a model-3-E (32x80) or a model-2-E (24x80) however, then it seems to work just fine on both Herculeses. (Herculi?) Are you *SURE* you're connecting your Vista 3270 session to MTS's 3270 display terminal address 0001 as a 3270 model 2 or 3 or 4? (i.e. NOT as a model 5?) (see attached) Can we see a screen shot of Vista's connect dialog? As well as Hercules's logfile where it reports the connection? (e.g. "HHC02914I 0:0001 COMM: client 0 negotiations complete; ttype = 'IBM-3278-4-E'") Note, this is not the case for Hercules 3.x (3.06, 3.13). They
don't exhibit this behavior.
For me, using a 3270 model-5-E (27x132) *always* causes problems, even for Hercules 3.x (3.13), whereas using any other model (e.g. 2, 3 or 4) works beautifully, just as it does with SDL Hyperion 4.6 too. <shrug> Then it certainly sounds like there is a bug in SDL Hercules
which needs to be investigated! Which I now suspect MIGHT not be the case! It all depends on: 1. What a "superdump" is. 2. Whether you're using a model-5 or a model-4, 3 or 2. 3. Whether you're using NetBSD or not. 4. Whether your Hercules is running natively or in virtual machine (e.g. VMware on Windows, VirtualBox on Linux, or some other virtual machine running elsewhere, such as the AWS you mentioned before). I will see about opening a ticket in order to help diagnose the problem. Thank you. I would appreciate that very much.
Yes! PLEASE! We need to get to the bottom of this! There is something very unusual with whatever system/environment you're trying to run SDL Hyperion + MTS on! -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@...
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Re: Issues Running MTS on SDL Hercules (Hyperion) 4.x - Summary of Trials
I would like to add some information to this discussion. When you
attach a 3270 telnet device (which is what you are doing when you
configure a 3270 type device), the device is creating a session with a
TN3270 server implemented within Hercules. The built-in TN3270 server
interacts with the 3270 CCW driver within Hercules.
There are two very different versions of Hercules here: 3.x and 4.x.
There was a lot of work done in version 4 related to telnet based
communications. In version 4.x, the TN3270 server is implemented with
the help of an external package whereas in 3.x the server was totally
part of Hercules. The two versions _are_ different.
It is entirely possible that Hercules 4.x is working as designed, but
triggering a very negative response in MTS when Vista is the client.
Why might 3.x work? 3.x may, by happenstance, be shielding MTS from
whatever Vista is sending that MTS does not like. ?
Is it working as designed? a bug? and which component?
This will be a challenge to resolve.
Harold Grovesteen
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On Mon, 2023-09-18 at 01:01 -0700, Fish Fish wrote: John Palmer wrote:
There is no mode in which using Vista 3270 as the master
console works without causing a superdump in the early stages
of IPL of MTS when running Hercules 4.x.
Note, this is not the case for Hercules 3.x (3.06, 3.13). They
don't exhibit this behavior. Then it certainly sounds like there is a bug in SDL Hercules which
needs to be investigated!
I will see about opening a ticket in order to help diagnose the
problem. Thank you. I would appreciate that very much.
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Re: Issues Running MTS on SDL Hercules (Hyperion) 4.x - Summary of Trials
John Palmer wrote: There is no mode in which using Vista 3270 as the master
console works without causing a superdump in the early stages
of IPL of MTS when running Hercules 4.x.
Note, this is not the case for Hercules 3.x (3.06, 3.13). They
don't exhibit this behavior. Then it certainly sounds like there is a bug in SDL Hercules which needs to be investigated! I will see about opening a ticket in order to help diagnose the problem. Thank you. I would appreciate that very much. -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@...
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Re: Issues Running MTS on SDL Hercules (Hyperion) 4.x - Summary of Trials
There is no mode in which using Vista 3270 as the master console works without causing a superdump in the early stages of IPL of MTS when running Hercules 4.x.?
Note, this is not the case for Hercules 3.x (3.06, 3.13). They don't exhibit this behavior.
I will see about opening a ticket in order to help diagnose the problem.
John
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On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 01:00 AM, Fish Fish wrote:
(*) If I'm understanding things correctly, the problem stems from your connecting a non-standard 3270 model-2 (24x80) device to MTS's "master console", yes? That if you define your Vista 3270 terminal as a normal model-2 (24x80) 3270 device, then it works fine, yes? That the problem only occurs when you connect your Vista 3270 to MTS's master console address as a 3279 model-5 (132x80) device, then the problem occurs, yes? If that's the case (if what I said is true), then that would be classified as PEBKAC IMO.
If that's NOT the case however (if what I wrote above is wrong), then I would appreciate your help with debugging this.
Thanks.
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
mail: fish@...
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Re: Issues Running MTS on SDL Hercules (Hyperion) 4.x - Summary of Trials
John Palmer wrote: [...] I never would have guessed that it would be the choice of
terminal software that would be the cause of the problem <snip> I would never have guessed it either! AND... in the interest of not repeating myself, I would *really* like to get to the bottom of this! If Hercules has a bug in its 3270 display terminal handling, I would *very* much like to identify it and get it fixed: * * If you don't want to go to that trouble, I understand. But it would really mean a lot, and I'm sure others would benefit. Thanks. On the other hand, if the problem is instead a simple case of PEBKAC(*), then forget it. ;-) -------------------- (*) If I'm understanding things correctly, the problem stems from your connecting a non-standard 3270 model-2 (24x80) device to MTS's "master console", yes? That if you define your Vista 3270 terminal as a normal model-2 (24x80) 3270 device, then it works fine, yes? That the problem only occurs when you connect your Vista 3270 to MTS's master console address as a 3279 model-5 (132x80) device, then the problem occurs, yes? If that's the case (if what I said is true), then that would be classified as PEBKAC IMO. If that's NOT the case however (if what I wrote above is wrong), then I would appreciate your help with debugging this. Thanks. -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@...
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Re: Issues Running MTS on SDL Hercules (Hyperion) 4.x - Summary of Trials
Jeff - After discovering the 3270 terminal software issue last week, I've come to the conclusion that the issue is caused by using the Vista 3270 terminal software as the operators console (unit 001) during the initial bootstrap of MTS.
As Tom V. said, there are different pieces of driver code running 3270's depending on which phase of the IPL process is happening. It appears that the combination of Vista 3270 -> Hercules 4.x -> MTS d6.0a has issues when used as
the operator's console during the very initial phases on the IPL process.
?
I got it to work by using Mocha 3270 as the operator's console. I can use Vista 3270 just fine for the regular terminals.
I have had d6.0 running just fine under Hercules 4.7 (devel branch) on Centos 7 and NetBSD 9.3 (under an Antsle VM) and Ubuntu 22.04 on an AWS VM.?
I never would have guessed that it would be the choice of terminal software that would be the cause of the problem and tried Mocha as a last resort because I couldn't think of anything else to try.
John
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On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 04:34 PM, Jeff Snyder wrote:
Hey John,
On my Ubuntu VM test, I used the local x3270 on the console (DS01) and WC3270 from my Windows system on the interactive user session (DS02).
Jeff
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Re: Issues Running MTS on SDL Hercules (Hyperion) 4.x - Summary of Trials
Hey John,
On my Ubuntu VM test, I used the local x3270 on the console (DS01) and WC3270 from my Windows system on the interactive user session (DS02).
Jeff
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Re: Issues Running MTS on SDL Hercules (Hyperion) 4.x - Summary of Trials
On Sep 12, 2023, at 12:24 PM, John Palmer <jpalmer@...> wrote: You’re not going to believe this (or maybe some will). ? I’m used to trying long shots to get things to work, and I came up with an idea and said “… nah – that can’t be it”. ? So, I’m using Vista TN3270 and my 3270 terminal software.? I was wondering if that was causing the issue somehow. ? So, I got a different program. ? I started Hercule 4.7 on my Ubuntu AWS instance and connected with the new software and … the system starts just fine and runs. ? So, somehow, the Vista 3270 software -> Hercules 4.x? -> MTS is a bad combination. ? Bizarre.
Interesting!
What TN3270 software do you all use? The one that I have that works is Mocha TN3270, but it has hideos fonts.
I mostly use ‘x3270’ here on macOS, and have also played a bit with ‘c3270’. At one point I think I looked into using ’tn3270’, but it doesn’t look like that has been updated since 2013 and the binary for that doesn’t run on modern versions of macOS.
--?
Ron Frederick
ronf@...
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Re: Issues Running MTS on SDL Hercules (Hyperion) 4.x - Summary of Trials
You’re not going to believe this (or maybe some will). ? I’m used to trying long shots to get things to work, and I came up with an idea and said “… nah – that can’t be it”. ? So, I’m using Vista TN3270 and my 3270 terminal software.? I was wondering if that was causing the issue somehow. ? So, I got a different program. ? I started Hercule 4.7 on my Ubuntu AWS instance and connected with the new software and … the system starts just fine and runs. ? So, somehow, the Vista 3270 software -> Hercules 4.x? -> MTS is a bad combination. ? Bizarre. ? What TN3270 software do you all use? The one that I have that works is Mocha TN3270, but it has hideos fonts. ?
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From: John Palmer <jpalmer@...>
Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 21:09
To: '[email protected]' <[email protected]>
Subject: Issues Running MTS on SDL Hercules (Hyperion) 4.x - Summary of Trials? Thought I would migrate this discussion over to the MTS list as the Hercules list is too general. ? So, I have had no luck running the standard d6.0A MTS distribution under any type of VM. ? It does work fine on all of these machines/VMs using Hercules 3.06 and 3.13 ? All of my SDL Hercules builds were built with the “hercules-helper” scripts which builds the current devel branch (currently 4.7). ? Systems I have tried: ? Ubuntu 22.04 on AWS NetBSD 9.3 running on an Antsle VM Box. CentOS 7 running on an Antsle VM Box. ? I haven’t had time yet to haul out one of my old rack servers to install NetBSD or Ubuntu on bare hardware, but may try that soon. ? I’m going to get the lbltp program now and capture the super dump. If anyone knows how I can look at this or if someone wants to see it, let me know. ? I don’t mind digging into this, being a programmer of? 40 years, but not sure which thread to start pulling on.? If anyone has an idea of what might cause this to fail in virtual environments, let me know.? I will follow any clues. ? Thanks
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Ron Frederick
Marco Antoniotti
