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Hello Everyone!
I know this may sound strange, but when you're trying to delve into the history of computer technologies,
the earliest version of a program can be much more valuable than the latest one.
In 1958, FORTRAN II was released. Is there a version of it available for DOS360?
What is the earliest version of FORTRAN that is accessible for Hercules?
Best wishes,
Andre
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Andre, ? (basically) The 360 series only ran Fortran IV or Fortran 66. If you want Fortran II you can use a 1401 or 1620 simulator. This page:- ?
? covers running this on a 1401 SIMH emulator. There is also a 1401 simulator for S/360 so that could possibly be used. I know the 7090 also had Fortran II ….. ? Dave G4UGM ?????????????? ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Andre
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2023 8:23 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [H390-DOSVS] Earliest FORTRAN COMPILER available for use with Hercules.? Hello Everyone!
I know this may sound strange, but when you're trying to delve into the history of computer technologies,
the earliest version of a program can be much more valuable than the latest one.
In 1958, FORTRAN II was released. Is there a version of it available for DOS360?
What is the earliest version of FORTRAN that is accessible for Hercules?
Best wishes,
Andre
|
Hello Dave,
I see... But i heard that there was 1401 emulator for DOS360. Is it possible to somehow run FORTRAN II compiler inside 1401 emulator inside DOS360 inside Hercules?
Has anyone tried installing the 1401 emulator on DOS360 or DOS/VS?
By the way, big thanks for this link!
Best wishes,
Andre
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On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 12:13 AM, Dave Wade wrote:
(basically) The 360 series only ran Fortran IV or Fortran 66. If you want Fortran II you can use a 1401 or 1620 simulator.
This page:-
?
?
covers running this on a 1401 SIMH emulator. There is also a 1401 simulator for S/360 so that could possibly be used.
I know the 7090 also had Fortran II …..
?
Dave
G4UGM
|
Andre, Whilst Wikipedea says there was a 1401 emulator for DOS I have never seen a copy. I know the Turnkey MVS people have run the OS 1401 emulator under MVS. There was discussion here:- ? /g/turnkey-mvs/message/846 ? but you will have to join the turnkey-mvs group to read it. Whilst I am not an expert moving code from OS to DOS isn’t trivial. Around 20 years ago there was some discussion on 1401 emulation on the IBM-Main bitserv list which is in google groups here:- ?
? from what reading I have done the 1401 Fortran was somewhat limited. ? I expect that there was little use of Fortran II on 360. I can’t see what any Fortran II program wouldn’t run under one the 360 Fortran compilers. From what I remember there is nothing in Fortran II that isn’t in Fortran IV. Even with the usual Fortran G compiler you would get quicker compiles and runs on a 360. In addition, if you were running Fortran H you would get much better performance. So if you really want to torture yourself with Fortran II I think you for quickness you are down to the 1401 version either standalone or on Turnkey MVS. If you want to run bigger programs, probably the 1620 on SIMH would be the best option. I will try and have a look at this later, but I always find producing working FORTRAN II code a challenge. ? Dave p.s. there was also a 1620 emulator. There is info here:- ?
? ? ? ? ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Andre
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2023 10:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [H390-DOSVS] Earliest FORTRAN COMPILER available for use with Hercules.? Hello Dave,
I see... But i heard that there was 1401 emulator for DOS360. Is it possible to somehow run FORTRAN II compiler inside 1401 emulator inside DOS360 inside Hercules?
Has anyone tried installing the 1401 emulator on DOS360 or DOS/VS?
By the way, big thanks for this link!
Best wishes,
Andre
On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 12:13 AM, Dave Wade wrote: (basically) The 360 series only ran Fortran IV or Fortran 66. If you want Fortran II you can use a 1401 or 1620 simulator. This page:- ?
? covers running this on a 1401 SIMH emulator. There is also a 1401 simulator for S/360 so that could possibly be used. I know the 7090 also had Fortran II ….. ? Dave G4UGM
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Fortran was my first language.? I took a class at Butler County Community College. It was their first year (1964, I think) and they had no computing equipment so one night a week we went to the Butler Eagle newspaper to use their The newspaper used the 1620 to do type setting. Of course we used punched cards and we got one shot per night. I don’t know what version of Fortran they were running but I still have a printount of that first program and it looks like Fortran II. ? Each student would dream up their own project for the semester.? I happened to be in a bowling league and my project was a program to keep bowling statistics and calculate averages. I started writing code before we were taught about the first letter of variable names determining if it was an integer or floating point number. You can imagine my frustration when my calculations mixing integers and floating point variables did not give me precise answers. ? Back in those days you stared at your code very carefully playing compiler in your head because if there was anything wrong you had to wait a week to get another shot. ? No such thing as desk checking these days.? It’s so easy to make a little change and run it again, make a change, run it again, etc all day. ? In a little history of computing at Slippery Rock State College I wrote this statement: ? The first computer usage by students was in 1970 for FORTRAN classes.? Their programs were compiled with a stand-alone program called RAX.? We had to shutdown DOS in order to RAX.? Later we acquired BUFF40, a fast FORTRAN compiler from the State University of New York at Buffalo.? It ran in DOS/360. ? 
| /Fran Hensler at Slippery Rock University of Pennsylvania USA for 52 years?????? mailto:RockFox@...?? ? ?????????????????"Yes, Virginia, there is a Slippery Rock" ? |
? ? ? ?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave Wade Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2023 5:14 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [H390-DOSVS] Earliest FORTRAN COMPILER available for use with Hercules. ? Andre, ? (basically) The 360 series only ran Fortran IV or Fortran 66. If you want Fortran II you can use a 1401 or 1620 simulator. This page:- ?
? covers running this on a 1401 SIMH emulator. There is also a 1401 simulator for S/360 so that could possibly be used. I know the 7090 also had Fortran II ….. ? Dave G4UGM ?????????????? ? ? Hello Everyone!
I know this may sound strange, but when you're trying to delve into the history of computer technologies,
the earliest version of a program can be much more valuable than the latest one.
In 1958, FORTRAN II was released. Is there a version of it available for DOS360?
What is the earliest version of FORTRAN that is accessible for Hercules?
Best wishes,
Andre
|
Hi, Fran,
This page has a lot of good information:
? ???
including source code for a 1401 simulator that ran on S/360 models.? ?No microcode assists needed.? ;-)
Mark S. Waterbury
|
Hello Fran!
This is a very interesting story. You mentioned that the newspaper used IBM1620 for typesetting. Can you guess which program they were using?
I'm aware that CTSS had TYPSET and RUNOFF, which were released in 1964, but they might have been too primitive for a newspaper.
Do you happen to know if IBM had a professional typesetting application available during that time?
Best wishes,
Andre
|
Hello Dave! I have managed to run FORTRAN II compiler on SIMH, thanks to link you provided. As i understood, it runs on bare metal, so no OS at all. Am i right?
?| I expect that there was little use of Fortran II on 360. I can’t see what any Fortran II program wouldn’t run under one the 360 Fortran compilers. From what I remember there is nothing in Fortran II that isn’t in Fortran IV.
?| Even with the usual Fortran G compiler you would get quicker compiles and runs on a 360. In addition, if you were running Fortran H you would get much better performance.?
I know that MVS FORTRAN can run old programs, but i wanted to experience limitations of old FORTRAN compiler. But it looks like FORTRAN II and FORTRAN IV are not that different. Best wishes, Andre
On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 12:01 PM, Dave Wade wrote:
Andre,
Whilst Wikipedea says there was a 1401 emulator for DOS I have never seen a copy. I know the Turnkey MVS people have run the OS 1401 emulator under MVS. There was discussion here:-
?
/g/turnkey-mvs/message/846
?
but you will have to join the turnkey-mvs group to read it. Whilst I am not an expert moving code from OS to DOS isn’t trivial.
Around 20 years ago there was some discussion on 1401 emulation on the IBM-Main bitserv list which is in google groups here:-
?
?
from what reading I have done the 1401 Fortran was somewhat limited.
?
I expect that there was little use of Fortran II on 360. I can’t see what any Fortran II program wouldn’t run under one the 360 Fortran compilers. From what I remember there is nothing in Fortran II that isn’t in Fortran IV.
Even with the usual Fortran G compiler you would get quicker compiles and runs on a 360. In addition, if you were running Fortran H you would get much better performance.
So if you really want to torture yourself with Fortran II I think you for quickness you are down to the 1401 version either standalone or on Turnkey MVS.
If you want to run bigger programs, probably the 1620 on SIMH would be the best option. I will try and have a look at this later, but I always find producing working FORTRAN II code a challenge.
?
Dave
p.s. there was also a 1620 emulator. There is info here:-
?
|
Hi,
The earliest Fortran II compiler that I know of is the one for the
704. That is available a few places. Getting a tape built to run it
is a bit of a challenge.
Rich
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I have managed to run FORTRAN II compiler on SIMH, thanks to link you
provided. As i understood, it runs on bare metal, so no OS at all. Am
i right?
| I expect that there was little use of Fortran II on 360. I can’t
see what any Fortran II program wouldn’t run under one the 360
Fortran compilers. From what I remember there is nothing in Fortran
II that isn’t in Fortran IV.
| Even with the usual Fortran G compiler you would get quicker
compiles and runs on a 360. In addition, if you were running Fortran
H you would get much better performance.
I know that MVS FORTRAN can run old programs, but i wanted to
experience limitations of old FORTRAN compiler. But it looks like
FORTRAN II and FORTRAN IV are not that different.
Best wishes,
Andre
On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 12:01 PM, Dave Wade wrote:
Andre,
Whilst Wikipedea says there was a 1401 emulator for DOS I have
never seen a copy. I know the Turnkey MVS people have run the OS
1401 emulator under MVS. There was discussion here:-
/g/turnkey-mvs/message/846
but you will have to join the turnkey-mvs group to read it. Whilst
I am not an expert moving code from OS to DOS isn’t trivial.
Around 20 years ago there was some discussion on 1401 emulation on
the IBM-Main bitserv list which is in google groups here:-
from what reading I have done the 1401 Fortran was somewhat limited.
I expect that there was little use of Fortran II on 360. I can’t
see what any Fortran II program wouldn’t run under one the 360
Fortran compilers. From what I remember there is nothing in Fortran
II that isn’t in Fortran IV.
Even with the usual Fortran G compiler you would get quicker
compiles and runs on a 360. In addition, if you were running
Fortran H you would get much better performance.
So if you really want to torture yourself with Fortran II I think
you for quickness you are down to the 1401 version either
standalone or on Turnkey MVS.
If you want to run bigger programs, probably the 1620 on SIMH would
be the best option. I will try and have a look at this later, but I
always find producing working FORTRAN II code a challenge.
Dave
p.s. there was also a 1620 emulator. There is info here:-
--
==========================================================================
Richard Cornwell
rich@...
LinkedIn:
==========================================================================
|
Andre, Well the old machines like the 1620 and 1401 didn’t have an OS as you probably understand it. The only ran one task at a time. Usually they had what we called a monitor which loaded things in order. From what I remember Fortran II had some horrid restrictions.. ? So:- ? - Only arithmetic IF -> IF(NUMBER) I1, I2, I3
- No quoted strings in FORMAT only “H” constants
- No mixed mode arithmetic – so R ?+ I fails. You need to convert them to both real or both integer.
? So all II works in IV but not backwards. I ? Dave G4UGM ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Andre
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2023 7:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [H390-DOSVS] Earliest FORTRAN COMPILER available for use with Hercules.? Hello Dave!
I have managed to run FORTRAN II compiler on SIMH, thanks to link you provided.
As i understood, it runs on bare metal, so no OS at all. Am i right? ?| I expect that there was little use of Fortran II on 360. I can’t see what any Fortran II program wouldn’t run under one the 360 Fortran compilers. From what I remember there is nothing in Fortran II that isn’t in Fortran IV. ?| Even with the usual Fortran G compiler you would get quicker compiles and runs on a 360. In addition, if you were running Fortran H you would get much better performance.?
I know that MVS FORTRAN can run old programs, but i wanted to experience limitations of old FORTRAN compiler.
But it looks like FORTRAN II and FORTRAN IV are not that different.
Best wishes,
Andre
On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 12:01 PM, Dave Wade wrote:
Andre, Whilst Wikipedea says there was a 1401 emulator for DOS I have never seen a copy. I know the Turnkey MVS people have run the OS 1401 emulator under MVS. There was discussion here:- ? /g/turnkey-mvs/message/846 ? but you will have to join the turnkey-mvs group to read it. Whilst I am not an expert moving code from OS to DOS isn’t trivial. Around 20 years ago there was some discussion on 1401 emulation on the IBM-Main bitserv list which is in google groups here:- ?
? from what reading I have done the 1401 Fortran was somewhat limited. ? I expect that there was little use of Fortran II on 360. I can’t see what any Fortran II program wouldn’t run under one the 360 Fortran compilers. From what I remember there is nothing in Fortran II that isn’t in Fortran IV. Even with the usual Fortran G compiler you would get quicker compiles and runs on a 360. In addition, if you were running Fortran H you would get much better performance. So if you really want to torture yourself with Fortran II I think you for quickness you are down to the 1401 version either standalone or on Turnkey MVS. If you want to run bigger programs, probably the 1620 on SIMH would be the best option. I will try and have a look at this later, but I always find producing working FORTRAN II code a challenge. ? Dave p.s. there was also a 1620 emulator. There is info here:- ?
|
When we installed our first 360/30 in 1968 I remember vividly seeing something about a 1401 emulator option but we did not install it. ? /Fran Hensler ?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave Wade Sent: Friday, July 14, 2023 5:02 AM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [H390-DOSVS] Earliest FORTRAN COMPILER available for use with Hercules. ? Andre, Whilst Wikipedea says there was a 1401 emulator for DOS I have never seen a copy. I know the Turnkey MVS people have run the OS 1401 emulator under MVS. There was discussion here:- ? /g/turnkey-mvs/message/846 ? but you will have to join the turnkey-mvs group to read it. Whilst I am not an expert moving code from OS to DOS isn’t trivial. Around 20 years ago there was some discussion on 1401 emulation on the IBM-Main bitserv list which is in google groups here:- ?
? from what reading I have done the 1401 Fortran was somewhat limited. ? I expect that there was little use of Fortran II on 360. I can’t see what any Fortran II program wouldn’t run under one the 360 Fortran compilers. From what I remember there is nothing in Fortran II that isn’t in Fortran IV. Even with the usual Fortran G compiler you would get quicker compiles and runs on a 360. In addition, if you were running Fortran H you would get much better performance. So if you really want to torture yourself with Fortran II I think you for quickness you are down to the 1401 version either standalone or on Turnkey MVS. If you want to run bigger programs, probably the 1620 on SIMH would be the best option. I will try and have a look at this later, but I always find producing working FORTRAN II code a challenge. ? Dave p.s. there was also a 1620 emulator. There is info here:- ?
? ? ? ? ? ? Hello Dave,
I see... But i heard that there was 1401 emulator for DOS360. Is it possible to somehow run FORTRAN II compiler inside 1401 emulator inside DOS360 inside Hercules?
Has anyone tried installing the 1401 emulator on DOS360 or DOS/VS?
By the way, big thanks for this link!
Best wishes,
Andre
On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 12:13 AM, Dave Wade wrote: (basically) The 360 series only ran Fortran IV or Fortran 66. If you want Fortran II you can use a 1401 or 1620 simulator. This page:- ?
? covers running this on a 1401 SIMH emulator. There is also a 1401 simulator for S/360 so that could possibly be used. I know the 7090 also had Fortran II ….. ? Dave G4UGM
|
I’m sorry Andre but I can’t answer any of your questions.? All I know is that the first time our class went to the newspaper to run our programs the instructor just mentioned why the newspaper had a computer and he said it was for typesetting.? Never another word about it. /Fran ?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Andre Sent: Friday, July 14, 2023 1:41 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [H390-DOSVS] Earliest FORTRAN COMPILER available for use with Hercules. ? Hello Fran!
This is a very interesting story. You mentioned that the newspaper used IBM1620 for typesetting. Can you guess which program they were using?
I'm aware that CTSS had TYPSET and RUNOFF, which were released in 1964, but they might have been too primitive for a newspaper.
Do you happen to know if IBM had a professional typesetting application available during that time?
Best wishes,
Andre
|
Fran Hensler