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Re: z Architecture Mode

 

Excellent news!! Glad it proved to be as "easy" as advertised.

Harold Grovesteen

On Fri, 2022-10-14 at 09:30 -0400, John Rankin wrote:
Harold,

Thank you for your ideas.

However, I have already corrected the IPL routines to compensate for
the differences. It is now running just fine on Hercules.

Thank you for the help,
John

?On 10/14/22, 6:14 AM, "Harold Grovesteen" <[email protected] on
behalf of h.grovsteen@...> wrote:

Was MVT ever used on an earlier z machine? If so, the switch
would
have had to be in the code. In this case, "they" must have
removed the
mode switch.

All you have to do is make your "z14" version a little smarter
and you
can use Hercules with it as Hercules is today or as it will be
sometime
in the future. STFL (without the E) will tell you whether you
are in z
mode. If you are (on the z14) then just bypass the switch from
ESA/390
to z.

I understand you may not be in control of that portion of code,
but
this sounds like a useful feature even if only for internal use.

If this is just an environment for your use, does your IPL logic
have a
patch area? If so you might be able to alter your version to
include
the logic.

There are multiple ways to "skin this cat" if you really need to
make
it work. Just a matter of how much your effort the capability is
worth.

Just some ideas you might want to think about.

Harold Grovesteen

On Thu, 2022-10-13 at 22:38 -0400, John Rankin wrote:
> David,
>
> I agree that this would be easy. However, I am merely trying
to
> replicate the operation we are getting on our z14.
>
>
> But I truly appreciate your comments.
>
> Thank you so much,
> John Rankin
>
> ?On 10/13/22, 10:27 PM, "Fish Fish" <[email protected] on
behalf
> of david.b.trout@...> wrote:
>
> Harold Grovesteen wrote:
>
> [...]
> > Have the z/MVT loader do this when it starts and you are
> > off and running.
>
> Harold is correct: it is trivially easier to switch from
ESA/390
> mode to z/Architecture via a simple SIGP instruction, so the
fact
> that, currently, Hercules currently only supports IPLing in
ESA/390
> mode shouldn't really be an issue. Just switch to z/Arch mode
> yourself if you're not already in z/Arch mode already.
>
> --
> "Fish" (David B. Trout)
> Software Development Laboratories
>
> mail: fish@...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>












Re: z Architecture Mode

 

Harold,

Thank you for your ideas.

However, I have already corrected the IPL routines to compensate for the differences. It is now running just fine on Hercules.

Thank you for the help,
John

?On 10/14/22, 6:14 AM, "Harold Grovesteen" <[email protected] on behalf of h.grovsteen@...> wrote:

Was MVT ever used on an earlier z machine? If so, the switch would
have had to be in the code. In this case, "they" must have removed the
mode switch.

All you have to do is make your "z14" version a little smarter and you
can use Hercules with it as Hercules is today or as it will be sometime
in the future. STFL (without the E) will tell you whether you are in z
mode. If you are (on the z14) then just bypass the switch from ESA/390
to z.

I understand you may not be in control of that portion of code, but
this sounds like a useful feature even if only for internal use.

If this is just an environment for your use, does your IPL logic have a
patch area? If so you might be able to alter your version to include
the logic.

There are multiple ways to "skin this cat" if you really need to make
it work. Just a matter of how much your effort the capability is
worth.

Just some ideas you might want to think about.

Harold Grovesteen

On Thu, 2022-10-13 at 22:38 -0400, John Rankin wrote:
> David,
>
> I agree that this would be easy. However, I am merely trying to
> replicate the operation we are getting on our z14.
>
>
> But I truly appreciate your comments.
>
> Thank you so much,
> John Rankin
>
> ?On 10/13/22, 10:27 PM, "Fish Fish" <[email protected] on behalf
> of david.b.trout@...> wrote:
>
> Harold Grovesteen wrote:
>
> [...]
> > Have the z/MVT loader do this when it starts and you are
> > off and running.
>
> Harold is correct: it is trivially easier to switch from ESA/390
> mode to z/Architecture via a simple SIGP instruction, so the fact
> that, currently, Hercules currently only supports IPLing in ESA/390
> mode shouldn't really be an issue. Just switch to z/Arch mode
> yourself if you're not already in z/Arch mode already.
>
> --
> "Fish" (David B. Trout)
> Software Development Laboratories
>
> mail: fish@...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: z Architecture Mode

 

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Mike,

?

That is exactly the one we now own and are working on.

?

John

?

From: <[email protected]> on behalf of Mike Ward <antebios1153@...>
Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Date: Friday, October 14, 2022 at 9:15 AM
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [H390-DOSVS] z Architecture Mode

?

We used to run an operating system called MVT/VSE from Software Pursuits.

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of John Rankin
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2022 9:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [H390-DOSVS] z Architecture Mode

?

Tony,

?

I know the name is confusing, but we didn’t choose it.

?

MVT grew out of DOS/VS, and was one of the alternatives to VSE? I don’t disagree that it is confusing with OS/MVT, but what can you do.

?

John

?

From: <[email protected]> on behalf of Tony Harminc <tharminc@...>
Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Date: Thursday, October 13, 2022 at 9:44 PM
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [H390-DOSVS] z Architecture Mode

?

On Thu, 13 Oct 2022 at 20:57, John Rankin <John.Rankin@...> wrote:

?

By the way. Linux on Z requires an IPL in z mode.? But that is just a side note.

The reason I mentioned it here, is because my company owns MVT, and we are working on a z/MVT.? If you don't recall MVT, it was a competitive operating system to VSE.

?

I certainly remember MVT, but I suspect that we're talking about different OSs. The MVT I knew was a direct predecessor to SVS and then more distantly MVS, and was one of the branches of OS/360, alongside PCP and MFT. Of course it didn't do virtual storage.

?

Naming a competitor to VSE "MVT" seems like a strange choice to me...

?

Tony H.

?
Re: z Architecture Mode

 

开云体育

We used to run an operating system called MVT/VSE from Software Pursuits.

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of John Rankin
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2022 9:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [H390-DOSVS] z Architecture Mode

?

Tony,

?

I know the name is confusing, but we didn’t choose it.

?

MVT grew out of DOS/VS, and was one of the alternatives to VSE? I don’t disagree that it is confusing with OS/MVT, but what can you do.

?

John

?

From: <[email protected]> on behalf of Tony Harminc <tharminc@...>
Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Date: Thursday, October 13, 2022 at 9:44 PM
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [H390-DOSVS] z Architecture Mode

?

On Thu, 13 Oct 2022 at 20:57, John Rankin <John.Rankin@...> wrote:

?

By the way. Linux on Z requires an IPL in z mode.? But that is just a side note.

The reason I mentioned it here, is because my company owns MVT, and we are working on a z/MVT.? If you don't recall MVT, it was a competitive operating system to VSE.

?

I certainly remember MVT, but I suspect that we're talking about different OSs. The MVT I knew was a direct predecessor to SVS and then more distantly MVS, and was one of the branches of OS/360, alongside PCP and MFT. Of course it didn't do virtual storage.

?

Naming a competitor to VSE "MVT" seems like a strange choice to me...

?

Tony H.

?
Re: z Architecture Mode

 

Was MVT ever used on an earlier z machine? If so, the switch would
have had to be in the code. In this case, "they" must have removed the
mode switch.

All you have to do is make your "z14" version a little smarter and you
can use Hercules with it as Hercules is today or as it will be sometime
in the future. STFL (without the E) will tell you whether you are in z
mode. If you are (on the z14) then just bypass the switch from ESA/390
to z.

I understand you may not be in control of that portion of code, but
this sounds like a useful feature even if only for internal use.

If this is just an environment for your use, does your IPL logic have a
patch area? If so you might be able to alter your version to include
the logic.

There are multiple ways to "skin this cat" if you really need to make
it work. Just a matter of how much your effort the capability is
worth.

Just some ideas you might want to think about.

Harold Grovesteen

On Thu, 2022-10-13 at 22:38 -0400, John Rankin wrote:
David,

I agree that this would be easy. However, I am merely trying to
replicate the operation we are getting on our z14.


But I truly appreciate your comments.

Thank you so much,
John Rankin

?On 10/13/22, 10:27 PM, "Fish Fish" <[email protected] on behalf
of david.b.trout@...> wrote:

Harold Grovesteen wrote:

[...]
> Have the z/MVT loader do this when it starts and you are
> off and running.

Harold is correct: it is trivially easier to switch from ESA/390
mode to z/Architecture via a simple SIGP instruction, so the fact
that, currently, Hercules currently only supports IPLing in ESA/390
mode shouldn't really be an issue. Just switch to z/Arch mode
yourself if you're not already in z/Arch mode already.

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...
Re: z Architecture Mode

 

John Rankin wrote:

David,
Who? :)


I agree that this would be easy. However, I am merely trying to
replicate the operation we are getting on our z14.
Understood. And unfortunately, as I explained, that currently cannot be done with Hercules. Yet. Maybe someday someone will code CZAM support for us, but until then I'm afraid Hercules is not going to be too useful for you with such a hard requirement. Sorry! :(

I should point out too for others reading this thread, that Hercules DOES NOT try to emulate any particular IBM mainframe. It only emulates the IBM mainframe architectures (370, 390, z). Hercules is its own unique model of mainframe. It's not a 370/358. It's not a 4381. It's not a 3090 or 9221 or z13 or z14, etc. It's a HERCULES model mainframe. It's its own unique model of "IBM" mainframe.


But I truly appreciate your comments.
You're very welcome, John.

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...
Re: z Architecture Mode

 

开云体育

Tony,

?

I know the name is confusing, but we didn’t choose it.

?

MVT grew out of DOS/VS, and was one of the alternatives to VSE.? I don’t disagree that it is confusing with OS/MVT, but what can you do.

?

John

?

From: <[email protected]> on behalf of Tony Harminc <tharminc@...>
Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Date: Thursday, October 13, 2022 at 9:44 PM
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [H390-DOSVS] z Architecture Mode

?

On Thu, 13 Oct 2022 at 20:57, John Rankin <John.Rankin@...> wrote:

?

By the way. Linux on Z requires an IPL in z mode.? But that is just a side note.

The reason I mentioned it here, is because my company owns MVT, and we are working on a z/MVT.? If you don't recall MVT, it was a competitive operating system to VSE.

?

I certainly remember MVT, but I suspect that we're talking about different OSs. The MVT I knew was a direct predecessor to SVS and then more distantly MVS, and was one of the branches of OS/360, alongside PCP and MFT. Of course it didn't do virtual storage.

?

Naming a competitor to VSE "MVT" seems like a strange choice to me...

?

Tony H.

?
Re: z Architecture Mode

 

David,

I agree that this would be easy. However, I am merely trying to replicate the operation we are getting on our z14.


But I truly appreciate your comments.

Thank you so much,
John Rankin

?On 10/13/22, 10:27 PM, "Fish Fish" <[email protected] on behalf of david.b.trout@...> wrote:

Harold Grovesteen wrote:

[...]
> Have the z/MVT loader do this when it starts and you are
> off and running.

Harold is correct: it is trivially easier to switch from ESA/390 mode to z/Architecture via a simple SIGP instruction, so the fact that, currently, Hercules currently only supports IPLing in ESA/390 mode shouldn't really be an issue. Just switch to z/Arch mode yourself if you're not already in z/Arch mode already.

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...
Re: z Architecture Mode

 

Yes, I wrote you some time ago about acquiring a hobbyist license.

Joe

On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 7:57 PM John Rankin <John.Rankin@...> wrote:
Thank you.

By the way. Linux on Z requires an IPL in z mode.? But that is just a side note.

The reason I mentioned it here, is because my company owns MVT, and we are working on a z/MVT.? If you don't recall MVT, it was a competitive operating system to VSE.

John

?On 10/13/22, 8:30 PM, "Fish Fish" <[email protected] on behalf of david.b.trout@...> wrote:

? ? John Rankin wrote:

? ? > Thank you for the quick response.? However, z/Arch mode ipls
? ? > in ESA and then switches to z mode.? I’m looking for the ability
? ? > to IPL in z mode.

? ? The ability to do that requires support for the Configuration-z/Architecture-Architectural-Mode (CZAM) Facility, which Hercules does not currently support:

? ? ? *
? ? ? *


? ? You CAN of course do a RESTART directly in z/Architecture mode of course. All it takes is a proper z/Arch PSW placed at low core address X'1A0' followed by a Restart Interrupt (i.e. the Hercules "restart" command). We do it all the time in many of our stand-alone integrity tests in our "tests" subdirectory.

? ? But to actually be able to *IPL* directly in z/Architecture mode? Nope. We don't support that yet.

? ? Sorry!? :(


? ? p.s. Why is this question being asked here in this forum? z/Architecture mode has absolutely nothing to do with DOS/VS!

? ? --
? ? "Fish" (David B. Trout)
? ? Software Development Laboratories
? ?
? ? mail: fish@...
Re: z Architecture Mode

 

Harold Grovesteen wrote:

[...]
Have the z/MVT loader do this when it starts and you are
off and running.
Harold is correct: it is trivially easier to switch from ESA/390 mode to z/Architecture via a simple SIGP instruction, so the fact that, currently, Hercules currently only supports IPLing in ESA/390 mode shouldn't really be an issue. Just switch to z/Arch mode yourself if you're not already in z/Arch mode already.

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...
Re: z Architecture Mode

 

On Thu, 2022-10-13 at 20:57 -0400, John Rankin wrote:
Thank you.

By the way. Linux on Z requires an IPL in z mode. But that is just a
side note.

The reason I mentioned it here, is because my company owns MVT, and
we are working on a z/MVT. If you don't recall MVT, it was a
competitive operating system to VSE.
If you are seriously working on z/MVT then it is a small step to
placing the ESA/390 mode (at IPL) into z mode.




These two macros from the Stand Alone Tool Kit (SATK) will do the job.
ZARCH calls SIGCPU. Have the z/MVT loader do this when it starts and
you are off and running.

The macros are a bit more intimidating than the actual executable
instructions needed for the mode change.

You can also ask questions about SATK on a groups.io list:
[email protected]

Harold Grovesteen


John

?
Re: z Architecture Mode

 

On Thu, 13 Oct 2022 at 20:57, John Rankin <John.Rankin@...> wrote:
?
By the way. Linux on Z requires an IPL in z mode.? But that is just a side note.

The reason I mentioned it here, is because my company owns MVT, and we are working on a z/MVT.? If you don't recall MVT, it was a competitive operating system to VSE.

I certainly remember MVT, but I suspect that we're talking about different OSs. The MVT I knew was a direct predecessor to SVS and then more distantly MVS, and was one of the branches of OS/360, alongside PCP and MFT. Of course it didn't do virtual storage.

Naming a competitor to VSE "MVT" seems like a strange choice to me...

Tony H.

Re: z Architecture Mode

 

Thank you.

By the way. Linux on Z requires an IPL in z mode. But that is just a side note.

The reason I mentioned it here, is because my company owns MVT, and we are working on a z/MVT. If you don't recall MVT, it was a competitive operating system to VSE.

John

?On 10/13/22, 8:30 PM, "Fish Fish" <[email protected] on behalf of david.b.trout@...> wrote:

John Rankin wrote:

> Thank you for the quick response. However, z/Arch mode ipls
> in ESA and then switches to z mode. I’m looking for the ability
> to IPL in z mode.

The ability to do that requires support for the Configuration-z/Architecture-Architectural-Mode (CZAM) Facility, which Hercules does not currently support:

*
*


You CAN of course do a RESTART directly in z/Architecture mode of course. All it takes is a proper z/Arch PSW placed at low core address X'1A0' followed by a Restart Interrupt (i.e. the Hercules "restart" command). We do it all the time in many of our stand-alone integrity tests in our "tests" subdirectory.

But to actually be able to *IPL* directly in z/Architecture mode? Nope. We don't support that yet.

Sorry! :(


p.s. Why is this question being asked here in this forum? z/Architecture mode has absolutely nothing to do with DOS/VS!

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...
Re: z Architecture Mode

 

John Rankin wrote:

Thank you for the quick response. However, z/Arch mode ipls
in ESA and then switches to z mode. I’m looking for the ability
to IPL in z mode.
The ability to do that requires support for the Configuration-z/Architecture-Architectural-Mode (CZAM) Facility, which Hercules does not currently support:

*
*


You CAN of course do a RESTART directly in z/Architecture mode of course. All it takes is a proper z/Arch PSW placed at low core address X'1A0' followed by a Restart Interrupt (i.e. the Hercules "restart" command). We do it all the time in many of our stand-alone integrity tests in our "tests" subdirectory.

But to actually be able to *IPL* directly in z/Architecture mode? Nope. We don't support that yet.

Sorry! :(


p.s. Why is this question being asked here in this forum? z/Architecture mode has absolutely nothing to do with DOS/VS!

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...
Re: z Architecture Mode

 

开云体育

Joe,

?

Thank you for the quick response.? However, z/Arch mode ipls in ESA and then switches to z mode.? I’m looking for the ability to IPL in z mode.

?

John

?

From: <[email protected]> on behalf of Joe Monk <joemonk64@...>
Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Date: Thursday, October 13, 2022 at 5:53 PM
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [H390-DOSVS] z Architecture Mode

?

Version 3.x of hercules: ARCHMODE z/ARCH ? ?

Version 4.x of hercules: ARCHLVL z/ARCH ??

?

Joe

?

On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 2:48 PM John Rankin <John.Rankin@...> wrote:

Folks,

?

Does anyone know how to configure Hercules to allow an IPL in z Architecture mode.

?

John Rankin
Re: jcl input

 

Happy it worked for ya! Keep up the learning , it takes a bit, but if you learn DOS, you'll find MVS like the cat's meow!

Joe

On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 12:57 PM Tom Chandler <tchandler48@...> wrote:
Joe,
Thank you very much for the info.? Just coded up a test program
and it works GREAT!!!!

You are right, very simple, but first time for me.?

Again, Thank You very much.

cheers
/tom c


On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 11:32 AM Joe Monk <joemonk64@...> wrote:
IIRC, this is pretty simple ..

you need a // ASSGN?SYSIPT,00C to assign the card reader?logical?to POWER...

Then in the assembler program, I think you have to have a DTFCD DEVADDR=SYSIPT to define the card reader. Open it and read the cards from SYSIPT.

Joe?

On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 9:10 AM Tom Chandler <tchandler48@...> wrote:
Thank you to all who helped me on my nested subroutine issue.? Made
a ton of progress on it.

New issue.... I want to include the data that my program uses in the JCL
job stream and my program will read this data for use.? I have been
trying to find information/examples of how to do it.

ex:
* $$ JOB JNM=TEST,CLASS=0,DISP=D????????????????????????????????????????
* $$ LST LST=00E,JSEP=1,CLASS=A,DISP=D????????????????????????????????
// JOB TEST?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
// EXEC TEST
DATA LINE ONE
DATA LINE TWO
DATA LINE THREE
/*
/&
* $$ EOJ

What I would like is for TEST to read the DATA LINE xxxx from the JCL.

The program is written in DOS/VS REL 34 ASM.

Any suggestions or comments will be welcome.

/cheers
/tom c

Re: z Architecture Mode

 

Version 3.x of hercules: ARCHMODE z/ARCH ? ?
Version 4.x of hercules: ARCHLVL z/ARCH ??

Joe

On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 2:48 PM John Rankin <John.Rankin@...> wrote:

Folks,

?

Does anyone know how to configure Hercules to allow an IPL in z Architecture mode.

?

John Rankin
z Architecture Mode

 

开云体育

Folks,

?

Does anyone know how to configure Hercules to allow an IPL in z Architecture mode.

?

John Rankin
Re: jcl input

 

René Ferland wrote:

[...]

stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/370/DOS_VS/Rel_29_Nov73/GC33-5373-
2_DOS_VS_Supervisor_and_IO_Macros_Rel_29_Nov73.pdf
I agree with René: Having a copy of GC33-5373 "DOS/VS Supervisor and 1/0 Macros" within handy reach while learning is HIGHLY recommended. Hell, having it within handy reach even AFTER learning is highly recommended as well! ;-)

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...
Re: jcl input

 

Joe Monk wrote:

IIRC, this is pretty simple ..

you need a // ASSGN SYSIPT,00C to assign the card reader
logical to POWER...
Actually, depending on which DOS/VS he's running, I'm not even sure that is necessary. All of the DLBL and assignments for each partition should already have been automatically made/assigned by the partition standard label and assignment PROCs that run automatically after POWER comes up and each partition is started.


Then in the assembler program, I think you have to have a DTFCD
DEVADDR=SYSIPT to define the card reader. Open it and read the
cards from SYSIPT.
OR... skip DTF use altogether and simply do your own I/O using EXCPs and CCBs and CCWs. Doing your own reader, printer and punch I/O is actually pretty easy. For I/O to tape and DASD, yeah, DTFs is the way to go. But for simple devices such as readers, printers and punches? Nah.

BUT... since he's still learning the ropes, yes, I'd recommend he stick with using DTFs for now. Doing EXCP using CCBs and CCWs is more advanced and can come later, as he becomes more skilled. There's no sense in confusing him this early in his learning. :)

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...
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