On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 03:33 PM, Ullman Garrett wrote:

Any recommendations dealing with unfriendly, unneighborly, rude and even hurtful language on a neighborhood group. We are a restricted membership, unmoderated, no Anonymous posts allowed. We just went to a moderated status for 24 hours in an attempt to cool things off. We should allow free speech, shouldn't we??

Ullmang

?Ullmang,

If you need to ask, you already know that there is a limit to "free speech".

In fact, as a group owner, it is your obligation to not permit certain language per the Groups.io Terms and Conditions. In particular, note section 1.6 (vi) below. Going to a Moderated status is an excellent step towards resolving the issue.

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User Conduct

You are solely responsible for all code, video, images, information, data, text, software, music, sound, photographs, graphics, messages or other materials (“content”) that you upload, post, publish or display (hereinafter, “upload”) or email or otherwise use via the Service. The following are examples of the kind of content and/or use that is illegal or prohibited by Groups.io. Groups.io reserves the right to investigate and take appropriate legal action against anyone who, in Groups.io’s sole discretion, violates this provision, including without limitation, removing the offending content from the Service, suspending or terminating the account of such violators and reporting you to the law enforcement authorities. You agree to not use the Service to:

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Gerald

You should establish Guidelines for the group and then enforce them.? The owner is providing a forum and sets the rules for participation in that forum.? Members that do not play by the rules can be banned.? my 2? worth...
See?/g/GroupManagersForum/guidelines
Also see the groups.io terms of service which state, among other things, "... You agree to not use the Service to?email or otherwise upload any content that?is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortious, excessively violent, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, pornographic, libelous, invasive of another’s privacy, hateful racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable...."

Toby

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That would?be up to?every individual group owner. My groups do not allow any discussion about Politics and Religion (Preaching)?even when I was running a chat group. ? ? ? ? ?

Freedom of speech
From: Ullman Garrett
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 14:33:45 EDT

Any recommendations dealing with unfriendly, unneighborly, rude and even hurtful language on a neighborhood group. We are a restricted membership, unmoderated, no Anonymous posts allowed. We just went to a moderated status for 24 hours in an attempt to cool things off. We should allow free speech, shouldn't we?

I have such a list and we do have problems. The list is described a conversation between neighbors — like a chat on the front porch or the back fence. No press releases except from the government. No business postings except in direct request from a member or for a new business in the neighborhood. No solicitations except for rare instances of fires or other emergencies to a household in the neighborhood. People posting information about where to donate things for temporary disasters like school supplies for the immigrant children in (unlawful) detention, hurricane relief, etc are fine.

I ask people not to characterize the comments or person but to factually discuss their comments. “Harry, you have no sense at all and your statements are racist on top of it.” Privately I would remind the person that this message is neither helpful or informative. Explain why you believe the statements are racist and avoid discussing Harry’s intelligence. The people usually apologize to me and to the list.

If the message is horrible enough, I put the person on moderated status immediately which means I read their messages before they are posted. Repeated offenses definitely mean moderated. Sometimes people argue or ask why a message was returned. One person who does that is a gallery owner who _sometimes_ shows local artists but wants to post announcements of all her exhibitions to the list. She has been on moderated status for over 10 years.

Only one person in 15 years has been banned from the list.

1. He was a person who ran for office every time a position was open with no possibility of getting more than 1 vote if he got on the ballot,
2. repeated attacked people for attacking him when they objected to having several _hundred_ signs posted in our neighborhood,
3. arguing with me about every message I rejected as much as 6 emails back and forth, and finally
4. posting messages on other neighborhood lists that would never be allowed on ours that members of both lists respond to and copied our list. His message would thus be copied to our list. (Members either eventually stopped or he did.)

We once had two men that we think started drinking after dinner and by 10:00 would start posting messages attacking other people on the list. During the day they posted intelligent and helpful messages. I have 2 co-moderators — we take 4 months at a time but I step in when there is trouble. One of my less inhibited moderators who emails people and says Cut it out! sent them both an email telling them to stop posting after dark “for reasons you well know.”

The list keeps growing — almost 3,000 members and ~900 messages a month. Sometimes people complain because we often get requests for plumbers and chimney sweeps every week, but that is usually why people join the list. They move to the neighborhood and need help. Sending them to a list isn’t a friendly way of responding, although we have one. First they ask for a plumber and then they stay for the conversation.

As a former college professor I insist that we can discuss hard issues like racism and development sensibly and productively. If necessary I put the whole list on moderated status. The worst was about a development that covered what some people considered a public park and believed they had been promised it would be a park forever—not about racism.

I took over the list which began when 12 neighbors were afraid in neighborhood crime spree. Now it is the place to go when you want to know about anything happening in the neighborhood. I even got a response when I asked why snow had an acoustical effect when the trains that border our neighborhood went by.

So I consider it invaluable and it works. Private “educational” reminders to members, temporary moderation, permanent moderation, no commercial messages, government announcements are okay.

A long message, sorry. I must say that moving to Groups.io has made the list much easier to manage.

Sharon
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Sharon Villines
[email protected]
"Neighbors Talking to Neighbors”
Takoma Park DC and MD

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:00 PM, Sharon Villines wrote:

The list is described a conversation between neighbors — like a chat on the front porch or the back fence.

I would argue that an on - line chat is nothing like that. A conversation between neighbours is just that, but it does not normally - and perhaps should not, take place in front of numerous (countless?) bystanders. I'm not suggesting that any such conversation might be littered with criticisms of others in the area, but IMHO equating a converation over the back fence with an on - line chat with all sorts of hangers - on in the background is simply asking for trouble.

Having got that out of the way I want to express my appreciation of the thoughtful views offered by Shal, Gerald & Toby. "Freedom of Speech" is a somewhat vague notion anyway; one example often used in the UK to illustrate the problems with the concept is to ask the question "does freedom of speech extend to shouting "Fire" in a crowded theatre where there isn't actually a fire?" The same example may well be used on the "other side of the pond" as well.

Another point to consider is that while I may be "free" to say what I like, that freedom does not extend to sidestepping the consequences of what I might say. Freedom brings responsibilities with it.

Chris

We should allow free speech, shouldn't we??

I would just like to add that for Americans, "freedom of speech" is a legal term with a precise meaning.? In particular, since the article in the US Constitution begins with "Congress shall make no law...", this has been broadly interpreted by the courts as applying only to the government.? It is neither censorship nor a restriction of free speech for individuals and non-governmental entities to restrict speech in their own environment in whatever way they so choose.

Best,

Glenn

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I ban members after 3 strikes, no acceptions, no asking questionsl if you don’t follow the rules you are out. And in the case of my group my rules are many.

I have had groups of one sort or another for probably 30+ years.? When I moved a group from a LISTPROC email server (everyone was moderated) to Yahoogroups probably 13 years ago, the other co-owner and I agreed we would TRY to unmoderate the group because of the traffic levels that meant we spent a lot of time moderating.? Our group was "mature" and we THOUGHT that would be sufficient.? I can tell you that within literally HOURS after we made that switch and unmoderated the 1000+ members, the flame wars started in earnest.? It took us probably 2 weeks to go in and MODERATE that group using the Yahoogroup tools available at the time.? In the meantime, we lost probably 1/4 of our members (unsubscribing due to the nasty nature of the postings).? It was a lesson I learned and have never forgotten.

I default my groups to MODERATED, period.? As owner, I have the ability to unmoderate anyone in the group on a selective basis.? I watch and see who is responsible and who follows the rules, as well as who is posting regularly.? THEN, and only then will I consider unmoderating an individual - and as always, I reserve the right to re-moderate them if they change their habits.

"Freedom of Speech" applies to government entities only.? As a private group, you are allowed to establish your own rules of conduct, including what kind of speech you will allow.? No one forces people to join your group, they are free to come and go as they please.? If they don't like the rules, they can leave.

Bill Hickey
Boulder, CO

I run several Old sewing Machine groups, mostly now rehomed happily here. We moderate just about everyone, and regard this as a necessary method, as otherwise the levels of misinformation, snarkiness, and just plain "I want my say" can get out of hand really quickly. The phrase we use is "This is not a democracy - if you want to run a group, perhaps you should start one for yourself.."
Works for us <grin>

Helen Howes
Vintage Stitchers Groups Official Grumpy Cow...

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On 7/13/2018 12:01, Helen Howes wrote:

I run several Old sewing Machine groups, mostly now rehomed happily here. We moderate just about everyone, and regard this as a necessary method, as otherwise the levels of misinformation, snarkiness, and just plain "I want my say" can get out of hand really quickly. The phrase we use is "This is not a democracy - if you want to run a group, perhaps you should start one for yourself.."
Works for us <grin>

Helen Howes
Vintage Stitchers Groups Official Grumpy Cow...

I think it really depends on the members.? I run two groups, both completely unmoderated and the closest I've every gotten to needing to moderate was a slightly snarky comment about "You two should get a room.".? ;)

Clearly, YMMV.

Best,

Glenn

In the Spam Control section Leave the group's Moderated box normally unchecked, and use New Users Moderated instead. That way when people join they start off with the moderation override, and you can choose to leave them that way indefinitely. But for those you choose to unmoderate, set them to Default group policy, rather than Override: not moderated.

One of the things I appreciate about goups.io is the feature to moderate new members but they go off moderation automatically if there have been no problems. On Yahoo it took 5 screens to take someone off moderated status so we often just left them on. But it led to having to moderate more and more messages. In two messages we know if they are spammers or looking for a fight.

I think it also discourages people from even trying to post — they join to send a press release or solicitation or advertising but unsubscribe when they see the “new users moderated.”

Sharon
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Sharon Villines
[email protected]
"Neighbors Talking to Neighbors”
Takoma Park DC and MD

I am a veteran of the vi vs. Emacs flame wars of thirty years ago. (Emacs partisan). I look back with nostalgia. They were great fun. But not for everyone. Thin skins did not do so well.

Every group is different. As moderator or owner, you have more control of the way a group will grow and act than anyone else. You are not an agent of the government; you can allow or deny any person or post. Your only limitations are the Groups.io terms of service, which give you lots of room making your own judgements. Successful groups are lead by owners and moderators who pay attention to the needs and desires of their members.

There have been many examples in this thread of ways in which moderators have successfully managed their groups and many ideas that are worth trying. But no practice is guaranteed to work for any specific group. My advice is to exercise every bit of empathy you can muster to guide your members, but try to keep the group, not individuals, paramount. Be as serious or as frivolous as you like.

Best, Marv Waschke