Meridian Flips GM8 & Asiair
I tried my first Meridian flip this evening. Asiair counted it down and when it was time, the scope moved slightly and was never able to go to the correct coordinates. It was just hanging so I stopped it. is this just a settings problem or is something else causing this? All showed that the flip was on....
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Re: New Gemini L6.1 and Hand Controller v1.63 firmware available!
On Tue, Dec 17, 2024 at 11:17 AM, Paul Kanevsky wrote:
I'm really not sure what you were trying to do with flip points.
Paul,
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Previously I'd attempted to use this Flip Point feature, then after your description of its' features I reexamined my use of Flip Points.? And found the mount behaved in the same unacceptable way for me as in earlier revisions.? It was my error after you indicated that the settings remain uncorrected relative to the Celestial Meridian for the drifting target, as I had the answer.? I can only use "hope springs eternal sometimes" for questioning beyond.? In many ways I follow your input for context, perspective, and direction.? ?I need to exercise more listening at times.
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Doug
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Re: Meridian Flips and Catalog Management
Thanks so much Paul! All I have left to do is to figure out the GoTo and Safety Limits for my scope (SVX 130). ?:)
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-Paul
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Re: New Gemini L6.1 and Hand Controller v1.63 firmware available!
On Tue, Dec 17, 2024 at 09:16 AM, WayBack wrote:
Paul,
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Ok, thank you for checking on that too.? The two available methods then functionally operate the same, flipping Gemini-2 on the mount's leveled center and not the Celestial Meridian.? This and we cannot adjust the Flip Points except by adding delays into the external scheduling program.? I'll stick with the older method.? My preference would be to a method based off the Celestial Meridian (the adjusted digital circles), although I may be in the minority or perhaps that's just not possible for a GEM.
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Doug
I'm really not sure what you were trying to do with flip points. They act just like the Goto limit, except for the differences I already highlighted earlier in this thread. You can still use the West Goto limit to cause a flip before the meridian, if that's what you're trying to do. Just be aware that this requires the East-side safety limit to be set far enough from the meridian to allow for at least? 180 (and probably a bit more) degrees RA rotation from the same target position on the West side of the mount.
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Re: New Gemini L6.1 and Hand Controller v1.63 firmware available!
Paul,
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Ok, thank you for checking on that too.? The two available methods then functionally operate the same, flipping Gemini-2 on the mount's leveled center and not the Celestial Meridian.? This and we cannot adjust the Flip Points except by adding delays into the external scheduling program.? I'll stick with the older method.? My preference would be to a method based off the Celestial Meridian (the adjusted digital circles), although I may be in the minority or perhaps that's just not possible for a GEM.
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Doug
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Re: New Gemini L6.1 and Hand Controller v1.63 firmware available!
On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 04:34 PM, WayBack wrote:
Yet when I do this the routine strips the sign on setting the value.? Or am I entering the value incorrectly?
Meridian flip points are set up? past the meridian by the number of degrees that you specify. Negative numbers are not supported, AFAIK.
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Re: New Gemini L6.1 and Hand Controller v1.63 firmware available!
Hi Paul,
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This was my original understanding and just hoping.? Flip Points, once synchronized on a star, then remain a statistically fuzzy value in action.? Forcing a drift over (delay) of some number of minutes (dependent on the RA Index) after passing the Celestial Meridian or there exists a fair chance of the mount not flipping until the target drifts past the Mount¡¯s Meridian.? ? At least this remains the case without setting the Flip position a small drift amount before the Mount's Meridian.? Yet when I do this the routine strips the sign on setting the value.? Or am I entering the value incorrectly?
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Thanks for getting back and I do appreciate your dedication.
Doug
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Re: Meridian Flips and Catalog Management
As usual, thanks for the education on this topic.? I learn something every time you post especially this time about "reachable targets".? ?
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As far as what I would want Gemini to do (in my simple world), an example:
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Let's say I'm observing Mars near the meridian and I'm 2 minutes to the Safety Limit.? The mount beeps and a message flashes "Two minutes to flip!"? To your point about the telescope whacking you with an automated flip routine (a valid point!), Gemini first asks you if you want to perform a flip.? I press "Yes".? Flip is executed. If I press "No" or no response, telescope tracks until safety limit stops it (just like it does now). While flipping a "Stop Flip" command appears in case of disaster. That's what I had in mind when posting this.? And strictly for visual. Current Gemini works just fine with automation software and flips which is why this would have to be an optional "checkbox" feature.?
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Again, just a thought.? Current Gemini works just fine but this post got me thinking a bit about flips.
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Re: Meridian Flips and Catalog Management
> Regarding #2, was there a reason that Gemini was designed to just stop once the safety limit was reached???
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What would you want it to do? The safety limit is there to stop the mount before any damage occurs to the mount itself and the expensive \ equipment on it. Is that not a good reason? ;)
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> Maybe I'm just missing something but aren't all targets reachable from the other side of the mount after a meridian flip?
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No. You can set up restrictive safety limits so that not all objects are accessible from the other side of the mount. You can also attempt to flip the mount at a point where the current object position would violate the other side safety limit after a flip, even if the safety limits are not too restrictive.
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> If all targets are reachable,
They are not.
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> how difficult would be to add a feature where the user could choose to have tracking either stop at the safety limit (like it currently does) or have Gemini perform an automatic meridian flip?? Maybe the automatic flip feature could execute the flip a degree or two (or user defined) prior to hitting the safety limit.? An audible, unique, beeping would give the user a warning that a flip was imminent in addition to a message on the HC saying a flip is imminent or in 2 minutes (or something like that).? I know I certainly appreciate the new feature on the HC that shows the "time to limit" when you are within an hour of the limit.
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This is much better done using automation software. Doing this in the mount can cause equipment damage or even injury when someone is looking through an eyepiece and the mount starts slewing at a fast rate. Or, it can abort an imaging session if the mount tries to flip while the software is still in the middle of capturing a long-exposure image.
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Re: Meridian Flips and Catalog Management
Regarding #2, was there a reason that Gemini was designed to just stop once the safety limit was reached?? Maybe I'm just missing something but aren't all targets reachable from the other side of the mount after a meridian flip?
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If all targets are reachable, how difficult would be to add a feature where the user could choose to have tracking either stop at the safety limit (like it currently does) or have Gemini perform an automatic meridian flip?? Maybe the automatic flip feature could execute the flip a degree or two (or user defined) prior to hitting the safety limit.? An audible, unique, beeping would give the user a warning that a flip was imminent in addition to a message on the HC saying a flip is imminent or in 2 minutes (or something like that).? I know I certainly appreciate the new feature on the HC that shows the "time to limit" when you are within an hour of the limit.
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This feature would be geared toward visual observers.? Imaging software already can command Gemini to execute a meridian flip when it is time.
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Just a thought.? Probably a programming nightmare.
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Again, maybe I'm missing something but I think such a feature would work on my MI-250.
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Re: New Gemini L6.1 and Hand Controller v1.63 firmware available!
Hi Doug,
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The meridian used in flip point definition is not using the pointing model to transform the position to true sky position. It's rather a position 90 degrees relative to CWD in RA. The same applies to safety limits. These are physical mount positions rather than points in the sky.
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Regards,
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? -Paul
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On Sat, Dec 14, 2024 at 07:10 PM, WayBack wrote:
On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 10:25 AM, Paul Kanevsky wrote:
1. Flip points are set relative to the meridian, not safety limit
Paul,
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Could you confirm this, relative to which meridian?
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I still see the mount responding using Flip Point by using the uncorrected or Limit based meridian position.? Not the Meridian used by the scheduling software (that Meridian in the sky) once synchronization of the mount on the first star occurs and an RA Index value exists.? This then requires the insertion of a delay to use Flip Go-To modification not required using the WGL method.
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(I'm at 6.10 / 1.63 / 3.0 checking this.)
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Re: Meridian Flips and Catalog Management
Hi Paul,
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> 1. Does anyone know if, while doing a GoTo via the Hand Controller, there¡¯s a way to always force a meridian flip. I know I can check the Flip box in the dialog just before pressing Goto, but can I somehow make that setting stick?
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Yes, you can use the newly introduced meridian flip points to define a region between the meridian and the safety limit where any goto will result in a flip. The caveat is that all of the points in this region should be reachable from the other side of the mount, otherwise a flip will not occur.?
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> 2. In L6, when tracking an object across the meridian, will the Gemini-II automatically flip and continue tracking, or does it just stop once it hits a safety limit? In L5, I believe it just stops and sounds a beeping alarm.
No automatic flipping while tracking, only on Goto's. While tracking, the mount will start beeping periodically, with increasing frequency as it gets closer to the safety limit, and will stop tracking when it finally gets there.
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> 3. To reduce scrolling through an ever-longer catalog list in L6, can I delete unwanted catalogs?
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Yes, absolutely. Catalogs are just files on the Gemini SD card.
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> 4. Can I reorder the catalogs, perhaps by renaming what I want at the top by prepending a 1, e.g., ¡°NGC¡± becomes ¡°1NGC¡±, ¡°Messier¡± becomes ¡°2Messier, etc?
Unfortunately, I don't believe that would work. I think the catalogs are listed in the order they are stored physically on the SD card, not sorted by name.
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Regards,
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?-Paul
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On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 01:28 AM, Paul B. wrote:
Greetings All-
I¡¯m a visual astronomer who just upgraded to Level 6 to pave the way for a possible jump into imaging (heaven help my bank account). Four questions I have either been unable to find or discover answers for:
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1. Does anyone know if, while doing a GoTo via the Hand Controller, there¡¯s a way to always force a meridian flip. I know I can check the Flip box in the dialog just before pressing Goto, but can I somehow make that setting stick?
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2. In L6, when tracking an object across the meridian, will the Gemini-II automatically flip and continue tracking, or does it just stop once it hits a safety limit? In L5, I believe it just stops and sounds a beeping alarm.
3. To reduce scrolling through an ever-longer catalog list in L6, can I delete unwanted catalogs?
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4. Can I reorder the catalogs, perhaps by renaming what I want at the top by prepending a 1, e.g., ¡°NGC¡± becomes ¡°1NGC¡±, ¡°Messier¡± becomes ¡°2Messier, etc?
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Thanks in advance for sharing what collective wisdom you might have.
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-Paul
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Meridian Flips and Catalog Management
Greetings All-
I¡¯m a visual astronomer who just upgraded to Level 6 to pave the way for a possible jump into imaging (heaven help my bank account). Four questions I have either been unable to find or discover answers for:
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1. Does anyone know if, while doing a GoTo via the Hand Controller, there¡¯s a way to always force a meridian flip. I know I can check the Flip box in the dialog just before pressing Goto, but can I somehow make that setting stick?
?
2. In L6, when tracking an object across the meridian, will the Gemini-II automatically flip and continue tracking, or does it just stop once it hits a safety limit? In L5, I believe it just stops and sounds a beeping alarm.
3. To reduce scrolling through an ever-longer catalog list in L6, can I delete unwanted catalogs?
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4. Can I reorder the catalogs, perhaps by renaming what I want at the top by prepending a 1, e.g., ¡°NGC¡± becomes ¡°1NGC¡±, ¡°Messier¡± becomes ¡°2Messier, etc?
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Thanks in advance for sharing what collective wisdom you might have.
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-Paul
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Re: Star Trails/No Tracking in RA
Hi all,
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Thank You. I am sure that one of those things is the problem!
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Clear Skies,
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Paul
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I would be lying if I said I had never done that .... more than once!
Mistakes happen. Some here, with a lot of experience with these mounts, have made the same mistake. I certainly have, though I am not in the experts group :)
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Mistakes happen. Some here, with a lot of experience with these mounts, have made the same mistake. I certainly have, though I am not in the experts group :)
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Oh man that¡¯s a relief. Not happy at the observatory staff though.
yep, your cables are swapped. The side buttons should move RA and the up/down buttons DEC. Easy to fix :)
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yep, your cables are swapped. The side buttons should move RA and the up/down buttons DEC. Easy to fix :)
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Re: Problem, G11 Gemini 2 cold start & GOTO
Stay far away from the pole or Polaris when doing a Sync or an Align, and everything should work much better.
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On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 11:14 AM, <bobthorpe@...> wrote:
Thank you for your replies. So I did a test and feel better about my results. I¡¯m using a digital level to ensure that my mount is level and my angle is set to my Lat of 35.09 degrees, and a compass to ensure that I¡¯m pointing true north, a good basic mechanical alignment without a Polar scope. I did a cold start with CWD and then selected GOTO Polaris, after a RA movement of I believe 90 degrees to the left, the scope angle was close to my Lat of 35.09 degrees. I fully understand that at this step it might not point directly at Polaris but close, this is a good starting point, I¡¯m in the ballpark. Next, in a few weeks without such a bright moon, I can model / align it with west and east bright stars. Many thanks, Bob
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Re: Star Trails/No Tracking in RA
Check the RA/DEC reversal checkboxes on the HC->Menu->Mount->Gearing screen. Make sure they are not checked unless you have custom gearboxes that reverse tracking direction.
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On Sun, Dec 15, 2024 at 02:12 AM, Paul Romero wrote:
Hi all,
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The clouds cleared tonight, and I was able to test the ASCOM driver (with the tracking button selected on in virtual handcontroller) and an indi driver to my Gemini 2. Both PCs were connected via ethernet, so they were able to connect at the same time. Both exhibited the same behavior, which is the same as what I observed when I started the thread:
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1) Mount slewed to wrong side of the meridian (told it to go to Pollux, but it went West). I tried reversing RA on both virtual handcontrol in ASCOM and indi, but this did not change anything.
2) Star Trails evident in all instances and exposures from 2 to 5 seconds. Unable to plate solve, except at pole.
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I'm thinking perhaps the new firmware, since both indi and ASCOM connected PCs did exact same thing?
I have uploaded the logs from tonight in the files, under Romero.
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Let me know, and I'll upload the previous firmware using the GFU and test tomorrow night.
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Clear Skies,
Paul
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Paul Kanevsky
John Dias