Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 02:13 PM, Frank Wielgus wrote:
Regarding the tests to solve the issue, they are done indoors, otherwise it might be months.
From a cold start CWD:
- the mount is pointing at the NCP
- if I do a "go to bright star", it goes there with no issue ( I know from having used it outside, the star is within the field of view )
- this tells me the NCP is an alignment point
I just tested adding another star and did an alignment. No difference in outcome - when just over the meridian, the meridian flip function does nothing. The other functions do work. Even nudging the mount further to when it starts beeping, the meridian flip function does nothing.
I tried to do exactly what you describe here, Frank. I had Level 6 beta already flashed, so I tried a cold start, slew to past the meridian, and then do :Mf#... and it flipped with no problems, even without a single sync or align. Repeated a couple of times, works! I then flashed firmware 5.21 and now, with cold start, align/sync, etc., I can't make it flip using the :Mf# command. The result is exactly like what you're getting, :Mf# returns 0, meaning success, but no flip. Anywhere before or past the meridian, all the way to the safety limit, still no flip. Unless I'm missing something, it appears the :Mf# command is broken in that version... Regards, ? ?-Paul
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
Brian thanks - I'm starting to loose track here.
Do you want me to repeat the test ?? Please repeat where you want the limits set. I will then image the scope at the point of trying the meridian flip.
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
The NCP is *not* an alignment point in the sense that Gemini understands (and neither should the initial alignment be anywhere near the poles if it can be helped or it's asking for trouble!). On first movement after restart, it just moves the distance it calculates from the encoder ticks/gearing ratios/date/time and assumes *everything* else is perfect.
[In fact, it is highly likely that you cannot point directly at the pole as it requires nigh on zero orthogonality error between the Dec and RA axis (but this is somewhat beside the point).]
The test you did that had the extended logging had no alignment point recorded and there's nothing to indicate at any point that you have had a successful alignment since the 17th Feb, which was then followed by the flip command being issued at the right point. Even having CWD correctly set for a fake alignment when testing is taken out of the equation, so there should just be these two items required together.
Graeme?
Regarding the tests to solve the issue, they are done indoors, otherwise it might be months.
From a cold start CWD:
- the mount is pointing at the NCP
- if I do a "go to bright star", it goes there with no issue ( I know from having used it outside, the star is within the field of view )
- this tells me the NCP is an alignment point
I just tested adding another star and did an alignment. No difference in outcome - when just over the meridian, the meridian flip function does nothing. The other functions do work. Even nudging the mount further to when it starts beeping, the meridian flip function does nothing.
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
Thanks Frank?
yes inside testing is fine for now
Looking at the zip file you uploaded (thanks again that is perfect) does not appear you reset the limits as I described previously? Also i did not see a pic of your telescope immediately prior to attempting the flip
I'm setting up to do this exact test
Regarding the tests to solve the issue, they are done indoors, otherwise it might be months.
From a cold start CWD:
- the mount is pointing at the NCP
- if I do a "go to bright star", it goes there with no issue ( I know from having used it outside, the star is within the field of view )
- this tells me the NCP is an alignment point
I just tested adding another star and did an alignment. No difference in outcome - when just over the meridian, the meridian flip function does nothing. The other functions do work. Even nudging the mount further to when it starts beeping, the meridian flip function does nothing.
-- Brian?
Brian Valente astro portfolio? portfolio astrobin?
--
Brian
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
Regarding the tests to solve the issue, they are done indoors, otherwise it might be months.
From a cold start CWD:
- the mount is pointing at the NCP
- if I do a "go to bright star", it goes there with no issue ( I know from having used it outside, the star is within the field of view )
- this tells me the NCP is an alignment point
I just tested adding another star and did an alignment. No difference in outcome - when just over the meridian, the meridian flip function does nothing. The other functions do work. Even nudging the mount further to when it starts beeping, the meridian flip function does nothing.
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
Set up and HC version images.? By following Losmandy setting limits video my limits are 94 otherwise contact with tripod legs.
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
Ok - so that's does appear to be a Gemini 2 bug (the reported value from <99: is incorrect when the mount has not had an Initial Alignment) :) That's not the issue behind no flipping though: @Frank Wielgus - I still believe your issue is that you aren't doing an initial alignment after starting the mount. If you are trying to do it manually, it doesn't look like you have done it (or performed it fully/correctly) in the last test where we have the debug logs. If you are expecting Nina to do the plate-solve and sync the mount, it doesn't appear to be doing so either (at least, according to the logs, not since Oct 2022...) so you might need to review the settings there. I'm sorry but I use SGP so I can't advise on where it may be that needs reviewing.?
You *are* asking for the flip to take place in the right window as Paul K points out from the log (under the assumption that CWD is indeed correct), but the?mount will flatly refuse to flip (in the way logged) if it doesn't have an Initial Alignment in place.
(As an aside, as a GM8 owner myself, I'm a bit surprised you can't get larger limits than 94 degrees both side - my GM8 with WO FLT110 will go well beyond those points - though I concede it will?make a difference in terms of tripod position,?the NP127is isn't massively bigger than the WO scope. But, though it would make life easier, I don't think that's the issue you're experiencing).??
Flippin' flips! :-D
Graeme
On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 at 17:58, Paul Kanevsky < yh@...> wrote: Hi Graeme, You might be right. I just tried it from command terminal in the ASCOM driver, and this is what I get after a cold start:  On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 12:48 PM, Graeme Coates wrote:
On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 at 16:23, Paul Kanevsky < yh@...> wrote:
?
The log seems to show that Gemini thinks it's aligned. Status 1 was returned by <99: command.?
But certainly at least one sync/align is needed before doing any sort of testing from a Cold start.
20:31:28.533 Transmitting commands? ? ?TID:7 [2]: <99:F#
20:31:28.548 Ethernet received:? ? ? ? TID:7 [0]: <99, 1
?
I think this is a Gemini bug.??
?
I just cold started (power cycle and choice?at restart) our G2 which running a slightly later Gemini version (with runaway slew, and RA=0 sync bug fixes) and it also returned "1" to that command before I'd even commanded a slew. So my firm belief here is that no Initial Alignment has taken place, and therefore the Gemini 2 in question is not flipping for that reason.?
?
Here's the python commands I use to do the direct interface via the ASCOM driver (I ran a few to check they were sensible - I would fully expect <205: and <206: (RA/DEC Index Errors) to return zero from a cold start).??
?
?
?
?
?
Graeme
?
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
Hi Graeme, You might be right. I just tried it from command terminal in the ASCOM driver, and this is what I get after a cold start: 
On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 12:48 PM, Graeme Coates wrote:
On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 at 16:23, Paul Kanevsky < yh@...> wrote:
?
The log seems to show that Gemini thinks it's aligned. Status 1 was returned by <99: command.?
But certainly at least one sync/align is needed before doing any sort of testing from a Cold start.
20:31:28.533 Transmitting commands? ? ?TID:7 [2]: <99:F#
20:31:28.548 Ethernet received:? ? ? ? TID:7 [0]: <99, 1
?
I think this is a Gemini bug.??
?
I just cold started (power cycle and choice?at restart) our G2 which running a slightly later Gemini version (with runaway slew, and RA=0 sync bug fixes) and it also returned "1" to that command before I'd even commanded a slew. So my firm belief here is that no Initial Alignment has taken place, and therefore the Gemini 2 in question is not flipping for that reason.?
?
Here's the python commands I use to do the direct interface via the ASCOM driver (I ran a few to check they were sensible - I would fully expect <205: and <206: (RA/DEC Index Errors) to return zero from a cold start).??
?
?
?
?
?
Graeme
?
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 at 16:23, Paul Kanevsky < yh@...> wrote: ? The log seems to show that Gemini thinks it's aligned. Status 1 was returned by <99: command.?
But certainly at least one sync/align is needed before doing any sort of testing from a Cold start.
20:31:28.533 Transmitting commands? ? ?TID:7 [2]: <99:F#
20:31:28.548 Ethernet received:? ? ? ? TID:7 [0]: <99, 1
I think this is a Gemini bug.??
I just cold started (power cycle and choice?at restart) our G2 which running a slightly later Gemini version (with runaway slew, and RA=0 sync bug fixes) and it also returned "1" to that command before I'd even commanded a slew. So my firm belief here is that no Initial Alignment has taken place, and therefore the Gemini 2 in question is not flipping for that reason.?
Here's the python commands I use to do the direct interface via the ASCOM driver (I ran a few to check they were sensible - I would fully expect <205: and <206: (RA/DEC Index Errors) to return zero from a cold start).??
?
Graeme
?
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 10:02 AM, Graeme Coates wrote:
From the log zip file provided, Pointing.DAT appears to show no Initial Alignment since startup -? If there is no initial?alignment, Gemini will not flip.
The log seems to show that Gemini thinks it's aligned. Status 1 was returned by <99: command.? But certainly at least one sync/align is needed before doing any sort of testing from a Cold start.
20:31:28.533 Transmitting commands? ? ?TID:7 [2]: <99:F#
20:31:28.548 Ethernet received:? ? ? ? TID:7 [0]: <99, 1
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 10:37 AM, Graeme Coates wrote:
From Pointing.DAT:
?
! *** Losmandy Gemini2 Version 5.21 Build Mar 12 2017 08:22:00 started up ***
?
I think the file date is a red herring here.?
?
Graeme
The file date is weird, but the file itself appears to match the reported firmware version, 5.21
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
From Pointing.DAT:
! *** Losmandy Gemini2 Version 5.21 Build Mar 12 2017 08:22:00 started up ***
I think the file date is a red herring here.?
Graeme
On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 at 15:20, Brian Valente < brian@...> wrote: Frank what is the firmware version you are currently running? ? You can check via hand controller ? Menu->HC->Info ? ? ? Thanks ? Brian ? Brian Valente Losmandy Astronomical ? Losmandy.com Tutorials and vids at ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul Kanevsky
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2023 6:00 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Gemini-II_io] Meridian Flip - Stopped Working ? On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 08:51 PM, Frank Wielgus wrote: Interesting results.
Once the troubleshooter started recording, I went to a bright star via the HC and synched.? During this time, error messages were flashing rather quickly with time out, com errors etc. After syncing I slewed just passed the meridian and tried to flip - which it did not.? The error messages never stopped. I then stopped everything. I did not get these messages before.? File is attached.
Thanks, Frank. You really should've formatted that SD card :) You appear to have another file that needs to be deleted. Notice the date on that file... 11-05-18? 07:32AM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? System Volume Information 08-20-16? 12:00PM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? LOGS 02-17-23? 03:38PM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? CONFIG 02-19-23? 05:14PM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? COMBINED 11-29-18? 12:53PM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? AltAz 11-29-18? 12:54PM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? Catalogs 11-29-18? 12:53PM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? DE 11-29-18? 12:53PM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? EN 11-29-18? 12:53PM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? ES 11-29-18? 12:53PM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? FR 11-29-18? 12:54PM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? HC 11-29-18? 12:53PM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? MHC 11-29-18? 12:53PM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? Video 01-01-10? 12:00PM? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?363180 Cur_Gem2.bin
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
Frank what is the firmware version you are currently running? ? You can check via hand controller ? Menu->HC->Info ? ? ? Thanks ? Brian ? Brian Valente Losmandy Astronomical ? Losmandy.com Tutorials and vids at ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul Kanevsky
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2023 6:00 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Gemini-II_io] Meridian Flip - Stopped Working ? On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 08:51 PM, Frank Wielgus wrote: Interesting results.
Once the troubleshooter started recording, I went to a bright star via the HC and synched.? During this time, error messages were flashing rather quickly with time out, com errors etc. After syncing I slewed just passed the meridian and tried to flip - which it did not.? The error messages never stopped. I then stopped everything. I did not get these messages before.? File is attached.
Thanks, Frank. You really should've formatted that SD card :) You appear to have another file that needs to be deleted. Notice the date on that file... 11-05-18? 07:32AM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? System Volume Information 08-20-16? 12:00PM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? LOGS 02-17-23? 03:38PM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? CONFIG 02-19-23? 05:14PM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? COMBINED 11-29-18? 12:53PM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? AltAz 11-29-18? 12:54PM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? Catalogs 11-29-18? 12:53PM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? DE 11-29-18? 12:53PM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? EN 11-29-18? 12:53PM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? ES 11-29-18? 12:53PM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? FR 11-29-18? 12:54PM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? HC 11-29-18? 12:53PM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? MHC 11-29-18? 12:53PM? ? ? ?<DIR>? ? ? ? ? Video 01-01-10? 12:00PM? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?363180 Cur_Gem2.bin
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
From the log zip file provided, Pointing.DAT appears to show no Initial Alignment since startup -?
If there is no initial?alignment, Gemini will not flip. (I have a sample python script which I wrote to test flips, and I can comment out the initial?sync to prove this.). If you think you are doing a sync, or a platesolve with sync, this might suggest it's not doing what you think it is? You have successful platesolve/syncs in late Sept and early Oct, but none since. The last entry in the file is: ! *** Losmandy Gemini2 Version 5.21 Build Mar 12 2017 08:22:00 started up ***
:NODA
:EQUAT
+40 36 07 2023 02 22 10.0 1000.0 0.0
<EOF>
The last alignment looks like it was nearly a week ago and I presume you have done a cold start since (this is a manual alignment on a catalogue object (Alpheratz) since it will say "PC Object" if doing a platesolve+sync via software. Initial Alignments to PC Objects are perfectly valid, and the normal way of doing it as an imager - you even have these in the file):?
! *** Losmandy Gemini2 Version 5.21 Build Mar 12 2017 08:22:00 started up *** :NODA
:EQUAT
+40 36 07 2023 02 16 10.0 1000.0 0.0
! UTC Date: 16/02/2023 UTC Time: 22:10:44 Initial Alignment, Object: Alpheratz α AND, West Side
00 09 35.11 +29 13 08.47 00 09 35.09 +29 13 08.62 02 28.68
! ? 0.00 ? 0.00 ? 0.00
Graeme
On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 at 13:06, Paul Kanevsky < yh@...> wrote: On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 08:51 PM, Frank Wielgus wrote:
Interesting results.
Once the troubleshooter started recording, I went to a bright star via the HC and synched.? During this time, error messages were flashing rather quickly with time out, com errors etc. After syncing I slewed just passed the meridian and tried to flip - which it did not.? The error messages never stopped. I then stopped everything. I did not get these messages before.? File is attached.
Thanks, Frank.? The logs show all the settings and configuration, and I'm still unable to see anything that would cause the no flip behavior. Maybe Ren¨¦?can take a look.
The comm errors you saw were related to the troubleshooter and Gemini.NET driver trying to poll the mount simultaneously while running in the 'record activity' mode. I've made a fix for this for a future version of the driver, but it shouldn't affect anything other than the occasional popup messages.
I do see your tests to flip the mount, and as before, Gemini reports success but doesn't flip, HA=0.1826:
Tracking=True
Nudge from Safety=True
Eastern Safety Limit=094d00
Western Safety Limit=094d00
Goto Limit=002d30
AtHome=False
AtPark=False
Status Byte=5
At Safety Limit=False
Side of Pier=W
####### HA=0.189758 before flip request, mount is tracking #########08:40:17.184: ENQ 0 Macro=557783;389867;6.265307;+31.833485;+0.189758;195.535668;+80.937333;T;T;N;W;6.455065;0;0;276.106358;5;00090B10;-1;0;5;0;
####### Sent flip request, received 0 => OK #########
08:40:17.184: TRANSMITED=:Mf#
08:40:17.184: RECEIVED=:Mf#=0
####### Mount continues to track towards the safety limit, no flip has occurred #########
08:40:17.685: ENQ 0 Macro=557769;389867;6.265302;+31.833485;+0.189902;195.547123;+80.936885;T;T;N;W;6.455205;0;0;275.582792;5;00090B10;-1;0;6;0;
08:40:18.187: ENQ 0 Macro=557756;389867;6.265306;+31.833485;+0.190038;195.557759;+80.936475;T;T;N;W;6.455344;0;0;275.096623;5;00090B10;-1;0;5;0;
08:40:18.688: ENQ 0 Macro=557742;389867;6.265300;+31.833485;+0.190185;195.569213;+80.936029;T;T;N;W;6.455485;0;0;274.573057;5;00090B10;-1;0;13;0;
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
First is selected via the HC then synced.
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 08:51 PM, Frank Wielgus wrote:
Interesting results.
Once the troubleshooter started recording, I went to a bright star via the HC and synched.? During this time, error messages were flashing rather quickly with time out, com errors etc. After syncing I slewed just passed the meridian and tried to flip - which it did not.? The error messages never stopped. I then stopped everything. I did not get these messages before.? File is attached.
Thanks, Frank.? The logs show all the settings and configuration, and I'm still unable to see anything that would cause the no flip behavior. Maybe Ren¨¦?can take a look. The comm errors you saw were related to the troubleshooter and Gemini.NET driver trying to poll the mount simultaneously while running in the 'record activity' mode. I've made a fix for this for a future version of the driver, but it shouldn't affect anything other than the occasional popup messages. I do see your tests to flip the mount, and as before, Gemini reports success but doesn't flip, HA=0.1826:
Tracking=True
Nudge from Safety=True
Eastern Safety Limit=094d00
Western Safety Limit=094d00
Goto Limit=002d30
AtHome=False
AtPark=False
Status Byte=5
At Safety Limit=False
Side of Pier=W
####### HA=0.189758 before flip request, mount is tracking #########08:40:17.184: ENQ 0 Macro=557783;389867;6.265307;+31.833485;+0.189758;195.535668;+80.937333;T;T;N;W;6.455065;0;0;276.106358;5;00090B10;-1;0;5;0;
####### Sent flip request, received 0 => OK #########
08:40:17.184: TRANSMITED=:Mf#
08:40:17.184: RECEIVED=:Mf#=0
####### Mount continues to track towards the safety limit, no flip has occurred #########
08:40:17.685: ENQ 0 Macro=557769;389867;6.265302;+31.833485;+0.189902;195.547123;+80.936885;T;T;N;W;6.455205;0;0;275.582792;5;00090B10;-1;0;6;0;
08:40:18.187: ENQ 0 Macro=557756;389867;6.265306;+31.833485;+0.190038;195.557759;+80.936475;T;T;N;W;6.455344;0;0;275.096623;5;00090B10;-1;0;5;0;
08:40:18.688: ENQ 0 Macro=557742;389867;6.265300;+31.833485;+0.190185;195.569213;+80.936029;T;T;N;W;6.455485;0;0;274.573057;5;00090B10;-1;0;13;0;
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
Frank,
How do you slew to the first star after a cold start?
Do you manually slew to it or do you select an object from the hand controller and issue a goto command?
If you manually slew and then synchronise it will not do anything as it needs to know what it is you are pointing at.
If you command a goto to an object in the Eastern sky and then command a goto to an object in the Western sky - both well away from the meridian - the mount should perform a flip to do this.
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My tests are done inside. I hope this is what you mean. Using only the HC from a cold star at CWD, I slewed to a bright star and synced. Then I took the attached.
After this, I connected on the PC and checked the planetarium - and they agree with where the scope is pointing.
Then via the HC went to just over the meridian ( tried various spots ) and tried to meridian flip at them - all failed.
<GeminiStateSync.jpg><TelePointModSync.jpg>
--
Paul
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
Interesting results.
Once the troubleshooter started recording, I went to a bright star via the HC and synched.? During this time, error messages were flashing rather quickly with time out, com errors etc. After syncing I slewed just passed the meridian and tried to flip - which it did not.? The error messages never stopped. I then stopped everything. I did not get these messages before.? File is attached.
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Re: RA lag both motors stopped
In the first instance I suspect that you may have had an unusually cold period causing over-tight worm to ring mesh which caused stalls.
However a faulty encoder could certainly cause similar problems,
The only way to determine this is to have both the Gemini and both motors on the desk in front of you.
If you can arrange that, there are tests you can undertake:
1) after startup is the RA motor turning slowly and does it resist gentle attempts to turn it by hand against that motion or trying to make it move faster? If yes, the RA motor is good.
2) Does the DEC motor resist attempts to move it as above.
3) To double check the DEC motor you can swap the motors.
If the above isn't what you encounter then tell us what does happen?
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of erwan quigna Sent: 21 February 2023 21:21 To: [email protected]Subject: [Gemini-II_io] RA lag both motors stopped Hi, Since a week I have a big problem on the g11 gemini2 of mu observatory. This is the third time I found the mount complexity stopped. Seems both motors stopped working during the night. After that almost impossible to move any axes, even after power cycle. I have the message RA/dec lag message. I passed the whole Sunday in the observatory trying to find find the failing component Swapping cable with old ones : work better. (Move a little between fails) Swapping motor no change Removing motor no change Unplug ra motor : dec works normally Unplug dec motor no change At the end I was able to retrieve a fully functional mount after swapping the optical encoder of the ra motor with the one of an old legacy svm motor ¡ but only for 2 days. This night complete failure again. Even worst. No move at all. Try ten of power cycle. Even reformat of scared I had to phone someone to move the telescope to be able to close the observatory. I believe the problem is on the gemini computer itself. Given the symptom do you believe a repair is possible ? Does it seems like a known failure `? Thanks Erwan
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 04:58 PM, Brian Valente wrote:
https://gemini-2.com/ASCOM.html
I'm currently using 1.0.84. I will download and install 1.1.17 beta.
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Paul Kanevsky
David C. Partridge