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      Hi. I’m working on the restoration of 25C #15. Her mast hasn’t been up in 21 years! ?I only assume the gin pole that was inside the boat has been used before, but I can’t figure out how to make it work. Does anyone else have gear that looks the same??
Today I made the pole’s guy wires, running to triangulated floating rings per StephenB’s notes. But there’s no way to get everything attached by one person. I think the gin pole should notch in somehow between the mast and the mast foot part. This pole has a shaped wood insert bolted into the end, perhaps for compression strength. Do I need to devise a way to lock the mast rotation and mast foot together during raise/lower? Or is it better that the mast can still rotate during the operation??
can you see enough from these photos, or anyone available for a video call to direct me on this??
stumped!?
ps, I’ll post up the carbon chainplates retrofit video tonight. That project came out great. Just need a mast in the sky now…
thanks?
Greg 707.486.3954
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You need to lock rotation. In mtns w no cell service but posted pics in main group 1-2 weeks ago
Mobile so please excuse the errant dictation and auto-correct,
Prof James Looby
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OK, James, I'll go look for those photos! ?Nick, you described what I was thinking, bolting plates though the mast's tab that grab & align with base. I must be missing a part, because this gin pole has no way of attaching to the mast. Today I'll start noodling/sketching an all-in-one, easy-install part that physically aligns the mast and base, and secures the gin pole upright. Once all of this is done, I believe it should be OK to have only the side-wires done properly on the gin pole, and no need for temporary stays on the mast? Does that sound right??
Nick, yes please, it would be GREAT to see those instructions but I understand they may be too buried.?
Thank you guys!
-Greg
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Here are some pics of my F25c #9 with carbon mast which I sold a few years ago.
And for some inspiration :), here's a drone video of her finally sailing after lots of repair work!??
My gin pole had a pin that slotted into a hole in the mast and had fin-like pieces on each side to help it from twisting. These boats almost all had a custom mast raising solution because the ones from the kit were terrible.? You can see the Ginpole?laying on the ground here.
This is my first attempt with mast?raising after buying.? Not recommended to use tiedown?straps but you get the idea on the general setup
Aluminum bars to keep mast from turning
Working with rigging company to setup?Dyneema raising lines
OK, James, I'll go look for those photos!? Nick, you described what I was thinking, bolting plates though the mast's tab that grab & align with base. I must be missing a part, because this gin pole has no way of attaching to the mast. Today I'll start noodling/sketching an all-in-one, easy-install part that physically aligns the mast and base, and secures the gin pole upright. Once all of this is done, I believe it should be OK to have only the side-wires done properly on the gin pole, and no need for temporary stays on the mast? Does that sound right??
Nick, yes please, it would be GREAT to see those instructions but I understand they may be too buried.?
Thank you guys!
-Greg
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You still need the stays on the mast too to stop it going side to side. ?You can use halyards for this though too and the loads are not very high.
Before raising and lowering I always think of the two triangulated planes and run mu eyes over them - one with the gin pole and one with the mast.
Cheers
Nige
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On Aug 17, 2023, at 8:26 AM, Greg <cartersboat@...> wrote:
?OK, James, I'll go look for those photos! ?Nick, you described what I was thinking, bolting plates though the mast's tab that grab & align with base. I must be missing a part, because this gin pole has no way of attaching to the mast. Today I'll start noodling/sketching an all-in-one, easy-install part that physically aligns the mast and base, and secures the gin pole upright. Once all of this is done, I believe it should be OK to have only the side-wires done properly on the gin pole, and no need for temporary stays on the mast? Does that sound right??
Nick, yes please, it would be GREAT to see those instructions but I understand they may be too buried.?
Thank you guys!
-Greg
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As has been described in detail by me and others on other lists, you absolutely need lines to restrain the pole?as well as the mast side to side, and to keep the mast from rotating. The critical thing is, as you can see in Dan Morton’s pics, is that the pivot point for all the stays has to be in line with the pivot point of the mast, or the lines will loosen or tighten as you raise it.?
On the F24 MK1 mast raising system I helped rebuild, there is a spot one the cabin top that is not much lower than the pivot point for the mast, so it was easy to use a bolt eye for the pivot point, in fact, I welded a tang on to the eye with a hole in it that could take 1/4” pins/bolts and used clevises so that everything was on a very defines rotating center. I could actually put a 1/4” rod though the two mast raising holes and the side stay holes, they were exactly in line. It works very smoothly, and controllably.?
Using a rope triangle for the pivot should work except at the lowest spot where you might have to restrain it manually a bit side to side, but once it is above the pivot point, its pull will keep the lines taut.?
As you know, I made a rear mast crutch with a add-on higher mast holding cup so that the starting height of the rear part of the mast is much higher and therefore mush easier to start cranking up with the winch, remove the hardest part of the raise, and therefore also the highest tension on the raising line, and thus also any possible side-pull if things go… sideways ;-) It also would solve the problem of the flexible line lifting pivot triangle (as opposed to a stiff metal one) being pulled off center by the mast being below its highest point. Making an add-on or flip-up mast crutch that is higher than the flat position is not hard, and makes the raising much more possible single handed.?
On my boat, I use the halyards to restrain the mast side-to side, but have to adjust them several times as the mast goes up because they are not attached to the pivot point, but my. Mast is light and short so it’s not a huge hassle.?
Anton
Drive locally, Warm globally!
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On Aug 17, 2023, at 9:18 AM, Nige Oswald < ioi.nige@...> wrote:
You still need the stays on the mast too to stop it going side to side. ?You can use halyards for this though too and the loads are not very high.
Before raising and lowering I always think of the two triangulated planes and run mu eyes over them - one with the gin pole and one with the mast.
Cheers
Nige ?OK, James, I'll go look for those photos! ?Nick, you described what I was thinking, bolting plates though the mast's tab that grab & align with base. I must be missing a part, because this gin pole has no way of attaching to the mast. Today I'll start noodling/sketching an all-in-one, easy-install part that physically aligns the mast and base, and secures the gin pole upright. Once all of this is done, I believe it should be OK to have only the side-wires done properly on the gin pole, and no need for temporary stays on the mast? Does that sound right??
Nick, yes please, it would be GREAT to see those instructions but I understand they may be too buried.?
Thank you guys!
-Greg
|
I made a spectra bridle that attaches to the foot rails on each side and have a stainless ring that lines up at the mast pivot point. I use the ring to snap the jib and screacher halyards to and tie on lines for the ginpole.? Oh…just used a rubber pad at the ginpole base for grabbing the mast and keep it on compression.
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On Aug 17, 2023, at 9:53 AM, Anton <iamyouranton@...> wrote:
? As has been described in detail by me and others on other lists, you absolutely need lines to restrain the pole?as well as the mast side to side, and to keep the mast from rotating. The critical thing is, as you can see in Dan Morton’s pics, is that the pivot point for all the stays has to be in line with the pivot point of the mast, or the lines will loosen or tighten as you raise it.?
On the F24 MK1 mast raising system I helped rebuild, there is a spot one the cabin top that is not much lower than the pivot point for the mast, so it was easy to use a bolt eye for the pivot point, in fact, I welded a tang on to the eye with a hole in it that could take 1/4” pins/bolts and used clevises so that everything was on a very defines rotating center. I could actually put a 1/4” rod though the two mast raising holes and the side stay holes, they were exactly in line. It works very smoothly, and controllably.?
Using a rope triangle for the pivot should work except at the lowest spot where you might have to restrain it manually a bit side to side, but once it is above the pivot point, its pull will keep the lines taut.?
As you know, I made a rear mast crutch with a add-on higher mast holding cup so that the starting height of the rear part of the mast is much higher and therefore mush easier to start cranking up with the winch, remove the hardest part of the raise, and therefore also the highest tension on the raising line, and thus also any possible side-pull if things go… sideways ;-) It also would solve the problem of the flexible line lifting pivot triangle (as opposed to a stiff metal one) being pulled off center by the mast being below its highest point. Making an add-on or flip-up mast crutch that is higher than the flat position is not hard, and makes the raising much more possible single handed.?
On my boat, I use the halyards to restrain the mast side-to side, but have to adjust them several times as the mast goes up because they are not attached to the pivot point, but my. Mast is light and short so it’s not a huge hassle.?
Anton
Drive locally, Warm globally!
On Aug 17, 2023, at 9:18 AM, Nige Oswald < ioi.nige@...> wrote:
You still need the stays on the mast too to stop it going side to side. ?You can use halyards for this though too and the loads are not very high.
Before raising and lowering I always think of the two triangulated planes and run mu eyes over them - one with the gin pole and one with the mast.
Cheers
Nige ?OK, James, I'll go look for those photos! ?Nick, you described what I was thinking, bolting plates though the mast's tab that grab & align with base. I must be missing a part, because this gin pole has no way of attaching to the mast. Today I'll start noodling/sketching an all-in-one, easy-install part that physically aligns the mast and base, and secures the gin pole upright. Once all of this is done, I believe it should be OK to have only the side-wires done properly on the gin pole, and no need for temporary stays on the mast? Does that sound right??
Nick, yes please, it would be GREAT to see those instructions but I understand they may be too buried.?
Thank you guys!
-Greg
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Oh, right, the gin pole stays will keep the rings in the right place even when the mast is low!
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On Aug 17, 2023, at 11:14, Mark via groups.io <khimaira20@...> wrote:
? I made a spectra bridle that attaches to the foot rails on each side and have a stainless ring that lines up at the mast pivot point. I use the ring to snap the jib and screacher halyards to and tie on lines for the ginpole.? Oh…just used a rubber pad at the ginpole base for grabbing the mast and keep it on compression.
On Aug 17, 2023, at 9:53 AM, Anton <iamyouranton@...> wrote:
? As has been described in detail by me and others on other lists, you absolutely need lines to restrain the pole?as well as the mast side to side, and to keep the mast from rotating. The critical thing is, as you can see in Dan Morton’s pics, is that the pivot point for all the stays has to be in line with the pivot point of the mast, or the lines will loosen or tighten as you raise it.?
On the F24 MK1 mast raising system I helped rebuild, there is a spot one the cabin top that is not much lower than the pivot point for the mast, so it was easy to use a bolt eye for the pivot point, in fact, I welded a tang on to the eye with a hole in it that could take 1/4” pins/bolts and used clevises so that everything was on a very defines rotating center. I could actually put a 1/4” rod though the two mast raising holes and the side stay holes, they were exactly in line. It works very smoothly, and controllably.?
Using a rope triangle for the pivot should work except at the lowest spot where you might have to restrain it manually a bit side to side, but once it is above the pivot point, its pull will keep the lines taut.?
As you know, I made a rear mast crutch with a add-on higher mast holding cup so that the starting height of the rear part of the mast is much higher and therefore mush easier to start cranking up with the winch, remove the hardest part of the raise, and therefore also the highest tension on the raising line, and thus also any possible side-pull if things go… sideways ;-) It also would solve the problem of the flexible line lifting pivot triangle (as opposed to a stiff metal one) being pulled off center by the mast being below its highest point. Making an add-on or flip-up mast crutch that is higher than the flat position is not hard, and makes the raising much more possible single handed.?
On my boat, I use the halyards to restrain the mast side-to side, but have to adjust them several times as the mast goes up because they are not attached to the pivot point, but my. Mast is light and short so it’s not a huge hassle.?
Anton
Drive locally, Warm globally!
On Aug 17, 2023, at 9:18 AM, Nige Oswald < ioi.nige@...> wrote:
You still need the stays on the mast too to stop it going side to side. ?You can use halyards for this though too and the loads are not very high.
Before raising and lowering I always think of the two triangulated planes and run mu eyes over them - one with the gin pole and one with the mast.
Cheers
Nige ?OK, James, I'll go look for those photos! ?Nick, you described what I was thinking, bolting plates though the mast's tab that grab & align with base. I must be missing a part, because this gin pole has no way of attaching to the mast. Today I'll start noodling/sketching an all-in-one, easy-install part that physically aligns the mast and base, and secures the gin pole upright. Once all of this is done, I believe it should be OK to have only the side-wires done properly on the gin pole, and no need for temporary stays on the mast? Does that sound right??
Nick, yes please, it would be GREAT to see those instructions but I understand they may be too buried.?
Thank you guys!
-Greg
|
I have the same setup but use pelican clips for the gib pole lines for consistency and to save…. ?… 20 seconds ?
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Show quoted text
On Aug 17, 2023, at 11:14 AM, Mark via groups.io <khimaira20@...> wrote:
? I made a spectra bridle that attaches to the foot rails on each side and have a stainless ring that lines up at the mast pivot point. I use the ring to snap the jib and screacher halyards to and tie on lines for the ginpole.? Oh…just used a rubber pad at the ginpole base for grabbing the mast and keep it on compression.
On Aug 17, 2023, at 9:53 AM, Anton <iamyouranton@...> wrote:
? As has been described in detail by me and others on other lists, you absolutely need lines to restrain the pole?as well as the mast side to side, and to keep the mast from rotating. The critical thing is, as you can see in Dan Morton’s pics, is that the pivot point for all the stays has to be in line with the pivot point of the mast, or the lines will loosen or tighten as you raise it.?
On the F24 MK1 mast raising system I helped rebuild, there is a spot one the cabin top that is not much lower than the pivot point for the mast, so it was easy to use a bolt eye for the pivot point, in fact, I welded a tang on to the eye with a hole in it that could take 1/4” pins/bolts and used clevises so that everything was on a very defines rotating center. I could actually put a 1/4” rod though the two mast raising holes and the side stay holes, they were exactly in line. It works very smoothly, and controllably.?
Using a rope triangle for the pivot should work except at the lowest spot where you might have to restrain it manually a bit side to side, but once it is above the pivot point, its pull will keep the lines taut.?
As you know, I made a rear mast crutch with a add-on higher mast holding cup so that the starting height of the rear part of the mast is much higher and therefore mush easier to start cranking up with the winch, remove the hardest part of the raise, and therefore also the highest tension on the raising line, and thus also any possible side-pull if things go… sideways ;-) It also would solve the problem of the flexible line lifting pivot triangle (as opposed to a stiff metal one) being pulled off center by the mast being below its highest point. Making an add-on or flip-up mast crutch that is higher than the flat position is not hard, and makes the raising much more possible single handed.?
On my boat, I use the halyards to restrain the mast side-to side, but have to adjust them several times as the mast goes up because they are not attached to the pivot point, but my. Mast is light and short so it’s not a huge hassle.?
Anton
Drive locally, Warm globally!
On Aug 17, 2023, at 9:18 AM, Nige Oswald < ioi.nige@...> wrote:
You still need the stays on the mast too to stop it going side to side. ?You can use halyards for this though too and the loads are not very high.
Before raising and lowering I always think of the two triangulated planes and run mu eyes over them - one with the gin pole and one with the mast.
Cheers
Nige ?OK, James, I'll go look for those photos! ?Nick, you described what I was thinking, bolting plates though the mast's tab that grab & align with base. I must be missing a part, because this gin pole has no way of attaching to the mast. Today I'll start noodling/sketching an all-in-one, easy-install part that physically aligns the mast and base, and secures the gin pole upright. Once all of this is done, I believe it should be OK to have only the side-wires done properly on the gin pole, and no need for temporary stays on the mast? Does that sound right??
Nick, yes please, it would be GREAT to see those instructions but I understand they may be too buried.?
Thank you guys!
-Greg
|
Greg I added the document on mast raising that came with Mindbender in a folder called....Mast Raising.? It is vital that the mast spanner is clamped in line with the mast base so there isn't any mast rotation when you are raising the mast. I added to the document that you can adjust the aft removable mast support so that you do not have to lift the spreaders over the support which is a massive and time consuming pain.? Adjustment is by varying the length of the rod that supports the mast support - which might mean you have to get a new rod but it is absolutely worth it.
Regards Nick Mindbender
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Thx Nick!? There was no mast support with the boat, it was just hanging on ropes tied between the beams. I'm trying to decide what material to build one from. But also like the idea of just using a ladder I could quickly?strap to the rudder gudgeons tower. The lowered mast will live on cradle-bars spanning the folded beam tips.? Yesterday's job was tabbing together the deck and hull, plus one side of the aft beam bulkhead to the hull. The assembling-owner of this boat did not finish some of the critical steps in 1994-5! Yikes.? Thank goodness there was a Farrier plans book inside, so I've gone through and checked for all necessary reinforcements. She's definitely getting more than just a face lift :)
Greg I added the document on mast raising that came with Mindbender in a folder called....Mast Raising.? It is vital that the mast spanner is clamped in line with the mast base so there isn't any mast rotation when you are raising the mast. I added to the document that you can adjust the aft removable mast support so that you do not have to lift the spreaders over the support which is a massive and time consuming pain.? Adjustment is by varying the length of the rod that supports the mast support - which might mean you have to get a new rod but it is absolutely worth it.
Regards
Nick
Mindbender
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Hi Greg: You seem to have it all worked out. My mast support went into the boat at cabin sole level with two holes in the sole. A terrible idea. I filled the holes with core and carbon fibre and now use a plywood plate that drops in amongst the supports for my aft slung rudder and then the mast support goes into holes in the plate, rather than the boat.? When I repaired the holes I noted that the core was starting to rot around them. I think if you are not careful/unlucky that it is possible to put a lot of torque on the holes via the mast support.
Regards
Nick
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... and you just confirmed my fear, re: embedded feet. I'll do a padded-flat footed thing, strapped to the rudder gudgeons assembly, still with a diagonal running forward to traveler to keep it locked in place. Thank you again for all the experienced guidance. I'll pay it forward to the next person :) -Greg
Hi Greg: You seem to have it all worked out. My mast support went into the boat at cabin sole level with two holes in the sole. A terrible idea. I filled the holes with core and carbon fibre and now use a plywood plate that drops in amongst the supports for my aft slung rudder and then the mast support goes into holes in the plate, rather than the boat.? When I repaired the holes I noted that the core was starting to rot around them. I think if you are not careful/unlucky that it is possible to put a lot of torque on the holes via the mast support.
Regards
Nick
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Greg
Mark