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Hello and thanks for adding me to the group and for making all the knowledge about the dalton lathes available here!?
A Dalton Lot 4 , No.1770 is currently offered on a craigs list equivalent in germany and i am thinking about buying it as my first lathe for my small hobby shop.?
I have a few questions that i want to clear before buying it, because i guess spare parts are even rarer in europa than in the US....
?
1) the spindle bearings seem quite tight. it takes some force to turn the spindle, at least it is definetly not turbing freely. when looking from the top, i am not sure if the babbits seam to have a crack in the middle, right were the path for the oil should be, going along the spindle axes.? would you ignore it and use it? and is there any way to replace the babbit? 2) how likely is it that the bed is worn out? when moving the carriage along the bed, it felt relatively consistent, not too loose, not too tight (but there is some dirt that might affect that) 3) is there a metric thread chart for the lot 4 lathes? since i am in germany i will only use metric threads, so this is quite important to me. i have found this foto, but i am not sure if it applies the the Lot4 lathe.... /g/DaltonLathes/photo/77634/917154?p=Created%2C%2C%2C20%2C2%2C0%2C04) from what i have read, the spindle should have an Mt2 taper internally, but some other variants have been found. Is there any way to confirm the Mt2 Taper on the lathe that i looked at, everything was pretty dirty in there, so no way to be sure. And did anyone use MT2 collets directly in the spindle? like these for example: last / 5) from your experience, if the parts that i want to make fit in the lathe, is there any reason you can think of, that would make the dalton lot 4 a bad choice for a small hobby shop? has anyone machined any stainless steel on it?? its such a cute little machine, that would perfectly fit in the tiny space that i have available. but i still have to try to stay objective about what it can do, and what it might not be able to do (or due to its condition and age cannot do any more) Kind regards Philipp
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As to tapers the spindle is a number 3 Morris and the tail stock is a? number 2 Morris taper.? The spindle thread is a 1 1/4- 12.? Some people have had success in using a ER 32 collet fixture with a number 3 morris taper shank. You have found the first Dalton seen in Germany.? There was one in Holland as well as a number of them in?England. Think there was one found in Italy also but not sure about that.? As to using?a taper shank collet fixture in the spindle it would be advised that the taper be drilled and tapped on the small? end so a draw bar can be used to keep it? secured in the spindle. As to our question about a metric thread chart, yes we have?seen a couple and I think one of my Daltons has one.? As to bed wear, yes we see some but Daltons for some reason do not wear the bed badly.? Test.? move the carriage?close to the spindle then lift up and down on the hand wheel and note how much the saddle lifts off the bed.? Then do the same thing with the saddle at the tailstock end and see what you get there.? It will be different I can assure you of that and with use of feeler gages you can determine how much wear you have. As to the spindle bearings if the spindle is tight and no more than .001 up and down play when you lift the spindle you're in really good shape.? Also if it's more than that there are ways of tightening up the fit of the spindle to the bearings.? As to change gears a set consists of 15 change gears If you are missing any give us a list of what you do have and we can tell you what is missing if any. The most maddening thing about a Dalton is the very small dial rings on the cross slide and compound slide.? They are .004 per graduation and that makes working to close tolerances?difficult. Feel free to ask any questions if I can't answer them there will be someone in the group that can. Dennis?
On Wed, Sep 11, 2024 at 2:23?PM philipp.jaeger1 via <philipp.jaeger1= [email protected]> wrote: Hello and thanks for adding me to the group and for making all the knowledge about the dalton lathes available here!?
A Dalton Lot 4 , No.1770 is currently offered on a craigs list equivalent in germany and i am thinking about buying it as my first lathe for my small hobby shop.?
I have a few questions that i want to clear before buying it, because i guess spare parts are even rarer in europa than in the US....
?
1) the spindle bearings seem quite tight. it takes some force to turn the spindle, at least it is definetly not turbing freely. when looking from the top, i am not sure if the babbits seam to have a crack in the middle, right were the path for the oil should be, going along the spindle axes.? would you ignore it and use it? and is there any way to replace the babbit? 2) how likely is it that the bed is worn out? when moving the carriage along the bed, it felt relatively consistent, not too loose, not too tight (but there is some dirt that might affect that) 3) is there a metric thread chart for the lot 4 lathes? since i am in germany i will only use metric threads, so this is quite important to me. i have found this foto, but i am not sure if it applies the the Lot4 lathe.... /g/DaltonLathes/photo/77634/917154?p=Created%2C%2C%2C20%2C2%2C0%2C04) from what i have read, the spindle should have an Mt2 taper internally, but some other variants have been found. Is there any way to confirm the Mt2 Taper on the lathe that i looked at, everything was pretty dirty in there, so no way to be sure. And did anyone use MT2 collets directly in the spindle? like these for example: last / 5) from your experience, if the parts that i want to make fit in the lathe, is there any reason you can think of, that would make the dalton lot 4 a bad choice for a small hobby shop? has anyone machined any stainless steel on it?? its such a cute little machine, that would perfectly fit in the tiny space that i have available. but i still have to try to stay objective about what it can do, and what it might not be able to do (or due to its condition and age cannot do any more) Kind regards Philipp
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Hi Dennis,
thanks for the insight.?
Morris taper? i have never heard of that. Or do you mean morse taper??
I had a morse 2 and morse 3 with me, the morse 2 fit well in the tail stock. But a morse 3 in the spindle? It didnt look like it would fit in there, it looked way too big.?
I will se what i can do with the collets. i am not sure if the original draw bar is still there, maybe i will have to make something myself. (i guess this will be the main theme for owning and using a dalton lathe....)?
?
the only one in germany? not sure if this is a privilege or if it should frighten me ;) I read about the one in italy here in the group. And i wonder how these machines ended up here in europe.?
The motor that is currently on my machine is a german one, from between 1921 and 1945. It could have been fitted later, but if it was fitted close in time after arriving here in europe, do you think the lathe could have been brought here by american soldiers after the WW2??
?
the lathe comes with a good selection of change gears: 24,30,36,40,44,46,48,52,54,56,60,66,72,96.
I have found a nice change gear calculator online:
and it seem that i can get the most common metric pitches with this set with a maximum deviation of 2 thousands of a millimeter. that should be close enough for my hobbyist work.
And i noticed, that the myford lathes from the UK use the same gears: 20DP, 14.5 pressure angle, 5/8 bore and 1/8 key way. The only difference is the width: 3/8 on the myford vs 7/16 on the dalton. but this should work well, if not some shims can sort this.
its good to hear that the beds tend to be pretty wear resistant. i will check again when i buy it.?
The dial rings are missing on the lathe. so i might have to make some or adapt some spares from another lathe. Or i go full metric and also change the spindles on the slides..... (i already get way too many ideas, before i even have the lathe...)
kind regards
Philipp
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just adding some pictures here.? Thats what i meant with the cracked babbit:?  the three jaw chuck was pretty easy to unscrew from the spindle. Still, an MT3 taper would not fit in there. but looking at the pictures i took, is there something stuck in the spindle bore??  ? ?
?
here is the whole machine:  the "NEW YORK" letters seem to have been ground of the carriage, there is some surface corrosion and lots of dirt everywhere and the gear covers are missing.? The tail stock seems a bit worn in the front part, so if the clamp close to tight there, you can only move the tail stock quill a bit out and then you have to loosen the clamp more.? i am not sure if the head stock is mounted correctly. the two screws in the back side dont look like they are supposed to be there originally...  the top slide was welded but i am not sure why: 
It definetly needs some work before i could make anything useful on it. thats why i am still hesitant if i should buy it or look for something else.
its a nice little machine with lots of features which are not easy to find on such a small machine.?
what kind of precision can be achieved on such a machine (after cleaning, aligning and so on)??
sorry for all the questions, i really like the idea of the dalton, but i am still unsure if i should take it and invest some time and money to restore it, or if i should pass on it and look for something else for my hobby projects....
greatings
Philipp
?
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Morning Phillip?
OK you have?a collet adapter stuck in your spindle.? It's either a collet adapter or a morse two to three adapter. Dalton used an adapter? in the spindle to be able to use?3C collets.? You mentioned a draw bar and yes one was used to draw collets into the adapter. Yes Morse taper sorry I am not good at spelling:-(((? Looking at your photo this lathe was owned by an Englishman at some point in its history.? The compound slide has been altered to be able to use the more common English way of holding toll bits in place.? The compound slide is now typical English style. as to the crack in the spindle bearing it may not be a problem as the bearing looks well secured in the tap cap casting.. Bolts securing the head stock to the bed are not original as Dalton made all their own hardware and was quite unique.? The head stock bolts would be hex but also have a screwdriver slot and the heads are quite tall. No lock washer was used originally.? I am a bit concerned?about the drive setup.? Dalton originally from the factory were set up to run a top speed of 480 rpm.? Not knowing what RPM your motor runs at the spindle looks to be setup to run? too fast for babbitt bearings. The picture shows the side of the compound slide where there is an open hole, there should be a Tee bolt in the cross slide to hold the compound slide in place.? The cross slide has a circular?slot that the Tee bolts ride in. As to change gears you're only missing one as there are two 25 tooth gears in the set. Only the 96 tooth is not used for threading all others can be.? The 96 tooth was for attaining the slowest feed for plain turning work. Will see what pictures I have on file that can help you. Dennis
On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 5:59?AM Philipp via <philipp.jaeger1= [email protected]> wrote: just adding some pictures here.? Thats what i meant with the cracked babbit:?  the three jaw chuck was pretty easy to unscrew from the spindle. Still, an MT3 taper would not fit in there. but looking at the pictures i took, is there something stuck in the spindle bore??  ? ?
?
here is the whole machine:  the "NEW YORK" letters seem to have been ground of the carriage, there is some surface corrosion and lots of dirt everywhere and the gear covers are missing.? The tail stock seems a bit worn in the front part, so if the clamp close to tight there, you can only move the tail stock quill a bit out and then you have to loosen the clamp more.? i am not sure if the head stock is mounted correctly. the two screws in the back side dont look like they are supposed to be there originally...  the top slide was welded but i am not sure why: 
It definetly needs some work before i could make anything useful on it. thats why i am still hesitant if i should buy it or look for something else.
its a nice little machine with lots of features which are not easy to find on such a small machine.?
what kind of precision can be achieved on such a machine (after cleaning, aligning and so on)??
sorry for all the questions, i really like the idea of the dalton, but i am still unsure if i should take it and invest some time and money to restore it, or if i should pass on it and look for something else for my hobby projects....
greatings
Philipp
?
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This picture shows what your lathe looked like when new.? In fact this one originally looked just about the same as yours does now.? Also note in the last pictures of the cross slide and compound?top slide casting they look different than yours.? Your cross?slide?is of the?earlier?design and this one on John Gland's lathe, this is the later more common cross slide we usually see.? Your cross slide?is a carry over from the Lot 3 lathe built in late 1913. By 1915 they had gone to the style you see in this picture. Also the slot and the two?threaded holes you see on this cross slide as well as the two threaded holes on? your cross slide were for attaching an extension?casting to cover the cross slide?ways on the saddle? Most are missing from lathes we see today. John's lathe was one of the very first Dalton lathes I restored.? This was many years ago.? John's lathe was given to him by a retiring professor at the university of Michigan where John was a teacher. The bed on this lahe was so badly damaged that I had to re-machine all the slide ways.? We did this in one of my company's CNC milling machines. Yes I know some of us get kind of carried away with our hobbies:-(((( In the one picture that's me and my machinist Stan looking at the surface finish of a fresh cut surface.?
Morning Phillip?
OK you have?a collet adapter stuck in your spindle.? It's either a collet adapter or a morse two to three adapter. Dalton used an adapter? in the spindle to be able to use?3C collets.? You mentioned a draw bar and yes one was used to draw collets into the adapter. Yes Morse taper sorry I am not good at spelling:-(((? Looking at your photo this lathe was owned by an Englishman at some point in its history.? The compound slide has been altered to be able to use the more common English way of holding toll bits in place.? The compound slide is now typical English style. as to the crack in the spindle bearing it may not be a problem as the bearing looks well secured in the tap cap casting.. Bolts securing the head stock to the bed are not original as Dalton made all their own hardware and was quite unique.? The head stock bolts would be hex but also have a screwdriver slot and the heads are quite tall. No lock washer was used originally.? I am a bit concerned?about the drive setup.? Dalton originally from the factory were set up to run a top speed of 480 rpm.? Not knowing what RPM your motor runs at the spindle looks to be setup to run? too fast for babbitt bearings. The picture shows the side of the compound slide where there is an open hole, there should be a Tee bolt in the cross slide to hold the compound slide in place.? The cross slide has a circular?slot that the Tee bolts ride in. As to change gears you're only missing one as there are two 25 tooth gears in the set. Only the 96 tooth is not used for threading all others can be.? The 96 tooth was for attaining the slowest feed for plain turning work. Will see what pictures I have on file that can help you. Dennis
On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 5:59?AM Philipp via <philipp.jaeger1= [email protected]> wrote: just adding some pictures here.? Thats what i meant with the cracked babbit:?  the three jaw chuck was pretty easy to unscrew from the spindle. Still, an MT3 taper would not fit in there. but looking at the pictures i took, is there something stuck in the spindle bore??  ? ?
?
here is the whole machine:  the "NEW YORK" letters seem to have been ground of the carriage, there is some surface corrosion and lots of dirt everywhere and the gear covers are missing.? The tail stock seems a bit worn in the front part, so if the clamp close to tight there, you can only move the tail stock quill a bit out and then you have to loosen the clamp more.? i am not sure if the head stock is mounted correctly. the two screws in the back side dont look like they are supposed to be there originally...  the top slide was welded but i am not sure why: 
It definetly needs some work before i could make anything useful on it. thats why i am still hesitant if i should buy it or look for something else.
its a nice little machine with lots of features which are not easy to find on such a small machine.?
what kind of precision can be achieved on such a machine (after cleaning, aligning and so on)??
sorry for all the questions, i really like the idea of the dalton, but i am still unsure if i should take it and invest some time and money to restore it, or if i should pass on it and look for something else for my hobby projects....
greatings
Philipp
?
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I have a Dalton that the spilndle was very stiff on.? It was hard to turn by hand.? I put some solvent in the oil cups and let it sit.? The next day it was a little easier to turn.? I then put some 10-40 motor oil in the cups and turned it a few turns.? I repeated
that several days and after that the spindle turned very easily.? My lathe does not yet have a motor so all turning was done by hand.? Before I motorize it I will get and use a proper spindle oil.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hello and thanks for adding me to the group and for making all the knowledge about the dalton lathes available here!?
A Dalton Lot 4 , No.1770 is currently offered on a craigs list equivalent in germany and i am thinking about buying it as my first lathe for my small hobby shop.?
I have a few questions that i want to clear before buying it, because i guess spare parts are even rarer in europa than in the US....
?
1) the spindle bearings seem quite tight. it takes some force to turn the spindle, at least it is definetly not turbing freely. when looking from the top, i am not sure if the babbits seam to have a crack in the middle, right were the path for the oil should
be, going along the spindle axes.?
would you ignore it and use it? and is there any way to replace the babbit?
2) how likely is it that the bed is worn out? when moving the carriage along the bed, it felt relatively consistent, not too loose, not too tight (but there is some dirt that might affect that)
3) is there a metric thread chart for the lot 4 lathes? since i am in germany i will only use metric threads, so this is quite important to me. i have found this foto, but i am not sure if it applies the the Lot4 lathe....
/g/DaltonLathes/photo/77634/917154?p=Created%2C%2C%2C20%2C2%2C0%2C0
4) from what i have read, the spindle should have an Mt2 taper internally, but some other variants have been found. Is there any way to confirm the Mt2 Taper on the lathe that i looked at, everything was pretty dirty in there, so no way to be sure. And did
anyone use MT2 collets directly in the spindle? like these for example:
last / 5) from your experience, if the parts that i want to make fit in the lathe, is there any reason you can think of, that would make the dalton lot 4 a bad choice for a small hobby shop? has anyone machined any stainless steel on it??
its such a cute little machine, that would perfectly fit in the tiny space that i have available. but i still have to try to stay objective about what it can do, and what it might not be able to do (or due to its condition and age cannot do any more)
Kind regards
Philipp
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Phillip,
Daltons are a fine lathe, when in good condition. I have 2 at this point and enjoy using them. ?
However, any lathe that is worn out is a bad investment. ?This lathe will prevent you from doing precision machine work for a long time. ?It will have serious issues that can only be worse than initially appears. Remember, all parts of a lathe wear down and become unserviceable together- not just the parts you notice.
I started out with a cheap, tired, worn out lathe and regretted ever walking down that path.
My recommendation to you is stay away from this one. There are many good smaller lathes in the marketplace these days. Buy a newer one that will help you learn to make decent parts. Precision and accuracy are what a lathe should deliver. A better lathe will help you become a better machinist almost immediately.?
Regards,
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Show quoted text
On Sep 12, 2024, at 11:41?AM, Robert Bradley <rcbradley@...> wrote:
?
I have a Dalton that the spilndle was very stiff on.? It was hard to turn by hand.? I put some solvent in the oil cups and let it sit.? The next day it was a little easier to turn.? I then put some 10-40 motor oil in the cups and turned it a few turns.? I repeated
that several days and after that the spindle turned very easily.? My lathe does not yet have a motor so all turning was done by hand.? Before I motorize it I will get and use a proper spindle oil.
Hello and thanks for adding me to the group and for making all the knowledge about the dalton lathes available here!?
A Dalton Lot 4 , No.1770 is currently offered on a craigs list equivalent in germany and i am thinking about buying it as my first lathe for my small hobby shop.?
I have a few questions that i want to clear before buying it, because i guess spare parts are even rarer in europa than in the US....
?
1) the spindle bearings seem quite tight. it takes some force to turn the spindle, at least it is definetly not turbing freely. when looking from the top, i am not sure if the babbits seam to have a crack in the middle, right were the path for the oil should
be, going along the spindle axes.?
would you ignore it and use it? and is there any way to replace the babbit?
2) how likely is it that the bed is worn out? when moving the carriage along the bed, it felt relatively consistent, not too loose, not too tight (but there is some dirt that might affect that)
3) is there a metric thread chart for the lot 4 lathes? since i am in germany i will only use metric threads, so this is quite important to me. i have found this foto, but i am not sure if it applies the the Lot4 lathe....
/g/DaltonLathes/photo/77634/917154?p=Created%2C%2C%2C20%2C2%2C0%2C0
4) from what i have read, the spindle should have an Mt2 taper internally, but some other variants have been found. Is there any way to confirm the Mt2 Taper on the lathe that i looked at, everything was pretty dirty in there, so no way to be sure. And did
anyone use MT2 collets directly in the spindle? like these for example:
last / 5) from your experience, if the parts that i want to make fit in the lathe, is there any reason you can think of, that would make the dalton lot 4 a bad choice for a small hobby shop? has anyone machined any stainless steel on it??
its such a cute little machine, that would perfectly fit in the tiny space that i have available. but i still have to try to stay objective about what it can do, and what it might not be able to do (or due to its condition and age cannot do any more)
Kind regards
Philipp
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good evening from germany,
?
@ Dennis:?
thanks for the fotos and the infos! now i know what it should look like. The Motor is wired for 2820rpm, so what ever the belt ratio, it will be way too high.
what was the original power rating and the rpm of the motor?
I know it was running like that. the current owner got it from the grandfather of a friend, and it seems like it was running not too long ago.
I think i could convince a machinist at my university to mill the bed, but i hope this is not required (that would require lots of nice persuating words and payments in beer or something like that)
@Robert
i guess i have to take it apart completely when i get it. just to remove all the dirt from it and see the true condition of the machine.
@Glenn
thanks for you warning. Thats actually exactly why i havnt brought it home yet. I am really unsure if i should get a newer lathe, maybe a european brand to ensure spare parts and so on.?
The thing is, i have very limited space (and a limited budged) which puts me in a place with most other people who want a lathe in their home shop. The dalton looks bad enough and isnt well known here that lots of people want it. I am sure, that i have to invest time and money to make it work reasonably well, thats why will only take it, if the seller agrees on a low price. then i can see were i will go from there.?
worst possible outcome is to part it out and sell the spares. Change gears are there and look good, back gear is there and works, and so on....
Kind regards
Philipp
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Dennis Turk
glenn brooks