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Anyone using a DAC? Which ones? Diminishing returns on vintage speakers?
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Want to play my digital music library through my reasonably costly system (Dq-10's, Dq1W sub and LP1 Xover) Hafler 500 amp and pondering the need for an outboard DAC to extract the best sound. Unsure of which one. Anyone out here using one and did you notice a real difference in sound quality vs just plugging into your computer or streaming via something like Plex?
Given the age and cost of the DQ-10's, I'm also wondering if spending more than a few hundred bucks on the DAC is even worth it given the limitations of the speakers themselves. The $249 Cambridge Audio DACMagic 100 seems like a nice little unit without breaking the bank....Not interested in a big dollar unit that won't produce any better sound through the 10's than a $250 unit
My music resides on a laptop so I suppose I'd need a pretty long cable to go from the living room or office to the DAC - is that how most use them?
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Don't short-change the DQ-10s. They hold their own very well
against all but the very highest end modern offerings, especially
if you pair them with a sub, as you've done.
Almost any external DAC is going to be better than what you'll
find in your phone, tablet, or laptop. I've been very happy with
Schiit products, including their DACs. Depending on how far away
your laptop is from your stereo, a long USB cable from the laptop
to the DAC should work. The problem then becomes convenience,
since you have to be in front of the laptop, or remote into it, in
order to select music, etc.
If you want a streaming solution that's free, and you don't mind
tinkering, Plex is a good choice. I didn't want to mess with the
internals, so I went with Roon, and am very happy. I got a Wiim
Pro as an endpoint device, and I use my iPhone as a Roon remote.
The Roon core is running on a 'nice, but nothing special' Windows
PC, which is also where my music files live. The Wiim Pro also
includes a DAC.
Happy listening,
-Greg
On 12/18/2023 1:42 PM, SpongeSound
wrote:
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Show quoted text
Want to play my digital music library through my reasonably costly
system (Dq-10's, Dq1W sub and LP1 Xover) Hafler 500 amp and
pondering the need for an outboard DAC to extract the best sound.
Unsure of which one. Anyone out here using one and did you notice
a real difference in sound quality vs just plugging into your
computer or streaming via something like Plex?
Given the age and cost of the DQ-10's, I'm also wondering if
spending more than a few hundred bucks on the DAC is even worth it
given the limitations of the speakers themselves. The $249
Cambridge Audio DACMagic 100 seems like a nice little unit without
breaking the bank....Not interested in a big dollar unit that
won't produce any better sound through the 10's than a $250 unit
My music resides on a laptop so I suppose I'd need a pretty long
cable to go from the living room or office to the DAC - is that
how most use them?
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Hey bluesound? node streamer is a no brainer, if you get it used it will stay in the budget you want. The Hafler 500 is a great pairing for the DQ-10 . Hope this helps.?
On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 6:12 PM, Greg Priddy <gapriddy@...> wrote:
Don't short-change the DQ-10s. They hold their own very well
against all but the very highest end modern offerings, especially
if you pair them with a sub, as you've done.
Almost any external DAC is going to be better than what you'll
find in your phone, tablet, or laptop. I've been very happy with
Schiit products, including their DACs. Depending on how far away
your laptop is from your stereo, a long USB cable from the laptop
to the DAC should work. The problem then becomes convenience,
since you have to be in front of the laptop, or remote into it, in
order to select music, etc.
If you want a streaming solution that's free, and you don't mind
tinkering, Plex is a good choice. I didn't want to mess with the
internals, so I went with Roon, and am very happy. I got a Wiim
Pro as an endpoint device, and I use my iPhone as a Roon remote.
The Roon core is running on a 'nice, but nothing special' Windows
PC, which is also where my music files live. The Wiim Pro also
includes a DAC.
Happy listening,
-Greg
On 12/18/2023 1:42 PM, SpongeSound
wrote:
Want to play my digital music library through my reasonably costly
system (Dq-10's, Dq1W sub and LP1 Xover) Hafler 500 amp and
pondering the need for an outboard DAC to extract the best sound.
Unsure of which one. Anyone out here using one and did you notice
a real difference in sound quality vs just plugging into your
computer or streaming via something like Plex?
Given the age and cost of the DQ-10's, I'm also wondering if
spending more than a few hundred bucks on the DAC is even worth it
given the limitations of the speakers themselves. The $249
Cambridge Audio DACMagic 100 seems like a nice little unit without
breaking the bank....Not interested in a big dollar unit that
won't produce any better sound through the 10's than a $250 unit
My music resides on a laptop so I suppose I'd need a pretty long
cable to go from the living room or office to the DAC - is that
how most use them?
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I have all my music on a NAS device, and then use an Oppo 205 to stream audio directly to my amp. No preamp required. The Oppo 205 has a ES9038pro dac chip. The sound is amazing, and you can also use the Oppo in your home theater system to stream video. Also multiple types of physical media, including 4K Blu-ray.
Maybe a little pricey, but it sounds great. The Oppo 205 was discontinued back in 2018, but you can buy used for $2500-$3000 on eBay.
There’s nothing else like it on the market for video streaming, and it will hold its own with audio streamers in that price range. The phone app, while outdated and a little clunky, still works well as a phone remote. The Oppo is great if you have a lot of DSD files, because it plays them natively.?
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On Dec 18, 2023, at 1:42?PM, SpongeSound <wm.edmiston@...> wrote:
?Want to play my digital music library through my reasonably costly system (Dq-10's, Dq1W sub and LP1 Xover) Hafler 500 amp and pondering the need for an outboard DAC to extract the best sound. Unsure of which one. Anyone out here using one and did you notice a real difference in sound quality vs just plugging into your computer or streaming via something like Plex?
Given the age and cost of the DQ-10's, I'm also wondering if spending more than a few hundred bucks on the DAC is even worth it given the limitations of the speakers themselves. The $249 Cambridge Audio DACMagic 100 seems like a nice little unit without breaking the bank....Not interested in a big dollar unit that won't produce any better sound through the 10's than a $250 unit
My music resides on a laptop so I suppose I'd need a pretty long cable to go from the living room or office to the DAC - is that how most use them?
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I get your point Greg and thanks. I own the whole Dahlquist kaboodle (2 pairs of 10's, 2 subs, and active Xover so I'm all onboard with DQ!!) That said, I was merely trying to convey that this isn't a $20K system so to keep suggestions 'grounded and realistic" to my budget.
Ideally, I'd like to control the music from my phone, not the laptop unless I'm sitting in the same room with it. Since the music is digital and resides on my hard drive, and Plex serves as the server, is it not possible to have the laptop in one room and control it from another room via the phone app (Plexamp)? The music would route from laptop to the DAC to my Hafler to the 10's?
I started using Plex awhile ago. It addresses my plan to pull music of my laptop But it? can run a bit "janky" sometimes (you said "tinkering" which is accurate too). Not familiar with Roon or how it compares.Or Wilm Pro for that matter.
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On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 07:24 PM, MUDDFISH wrote:
bluesound? node streamer
Looks intriguing!! How does your music library get accessed? Do your copy your files to it and it runs independently or does it still need to be connected to your laptop (where my music is)?
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I've been down a similar road, I just got back into it a couple of years ago...? I used my laptop for music and my wife streamed.? I ended up getting a Dragonfly DAC which was slightly better than the laptop (iMac and iTunes Library).? I thought this sounded great, and it did sound good (DQ10s with a Mcintosh MC4100).? Then I upped the power with a Crown DC300A II, used the Mcintosh as a preamp, and the DQ10s sounded even better.? Then for kicks I used a super cheap Sony CD player and spun some discs, and was amazed at the difference...? my library was compressed and I didn't know what I was missing.
I'll interject here and ask how you've saved your music files?? If they aren't totally lossless, then changing your source is probably one of the the biggest gains you can make?
When I realized that the source made so much difference I bought a decent CD player ($100 used) Denon DCD 820 with a great DAC chip... and OMG...? now I get it!? And the DQ10s sounded amazing!? I still had issues with bass and clipping if I tried to crank it up, until I ran across an Adcom GFA 555 II...? completely changed the soundstage and gave me headroom.
Now I have DQ W1s, and both a passive and active crossover to choose from, that are being gone through with my local tech...? I'll hook those up early next year and can't wait to hear/see the improvement!? I've also got a Krell Standard SACD player that I got at an auction (cheap), it was DOA but the same techs are trying to bring it back to life...? if they succeed, I have no doubt it will be another leap.
Basically all this to say, your DQ10s will only sound as good as your source file!??
Also... over the last two years I've gone to Chicago (no place in Louisville except Best Buy and Home Theater stores) and listened to quite a few systems, some very high end... and to get to the sound of my modest DQ10 system, I'd have to spend 10s of thousands...? I've got less than 4k invested, including everything I mentioned.
NOTE? My opinion, if you're hoping to get a sizable gain with a cheap DAC, probably not worth it...
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The Oppo seems like a bit of overkill. I don't stream video or have any Blu-ray stuff. Esp at $2500.
A NAS device may be a good idea if that frees up my laptop from having to store the music files.
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Here’s an interesting video talking about using vintage, audio speakers with today’s modern DACs and DSP:
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On Dec 19, 2023, at 6:41 AM, russ jackson <rjackson@...> wrote:
?I've been down a similar road, I just got back into it a couple of years ago...? I used my laptop for music and my wife streamed.? I ended up getting a Dragonfly DAC which was slightly better than the laptop (iMac and iTunes Library).? I thought
this sounded great, and it did sound good (DQ10s with a Mcintosh MC4100).? Then I upped the power with a Crown DC300A II, used the Mcintosh as a preamp, and the DQ10s sounded even better.? Then for kicks I used a super cheap Sony CD player and spun some discs,
and was amazed at the difference...? my library was compressed and I didn't know what I was missing.
I'll interject here and ask how you've saved your music files?? If they aren't totally lossless, then changing your source is probably one of the the biggest gains you can make?
When I realized that the source made so much difference I bought a decent CD player ($100 used) Denon DCD 820 with a great DAC chip... and OMG...? now I get it!? And the DQ10s sounded amazing!? I still had issues with bass and clipping if I tried to crank it
up, until I ran across an Adcom GFA 555 II...? completely changed the soundstage and gave me headroom.
Now I have DQ W1s, and both a passive and active crossover to choose from, that are being gone through with my local tech...? I'll hook those up early next year and can't wait to hear/see the improvement!? I've also got a Krell Standard SACD player that I got
at an auction (cheap), it was DOA but the same techs are trying to bring it back to life...? if they succeed, I have no doubt it will be another leap.
Basically all this to say, your DQ10s will only sound as good as your source file!??
Also... over the last two years I've gone to Chicago (no place in Louisville except Best Buy and Home Theater stores) and listened to quite a few systems, some very high end... and to get to the sound of my modest DQ10 system, I'd have to spend 10s of thousands...?
I've got less than 4k invested, including everything I mentioned.
NOTE? My opinion, if you're hoping to get a sizable gain with a cheap DAC, probably not worth it...
Currently using a PC USB interface to Sabaj A20d 2023 (AK4191 DAC) and a Mini DSP (analog In/Out) with REW.? A believe REW accomplishes the same thing as DIRAC, but REW is a bit more of a manual? process.? At times I find the DQ-10s a bit bright.? I EQed the DQ-10 to the harmon curve and didn't like the way it sounded. It sounded a bit dull.? So, I am using the MiniDSP right now? to only integrate in my subs with the DQ10s. I may go back to full-band EQing the DQ-10s at some point.?
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I usee a music service like spotify or tidal I use the premium plan .. As you get older and loose hearing finding music to hear at your fingertips is priceless.? Don't get me wrong, I still have preamplifier,? amps and speakers. Solid state and tubes stuff but what I value now is time. If a song or album? pops in my mind and I just want to listen to it, I can just use spotify? find it with a cluck of a button and press play. The bluesound node is a bluetooth streamer. It can pick up the signal from your phone or computer? and can be totally wireless from your source.
On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 8:49 AM, George Ahlborn <the_ahlborns@...> wrote:
Here’s an interesting video talking about using vintage, audio speakers with today’s modern DACs and DSP:
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On Dec 19, 2023, at 6:41 AM, russ jackson <rjackson@...> wrote:
?I've been down a similar road, I just got back into it a couple of years ago...? I used my laptop for music and my wife streamed.? I ended up getting a Dragonfly DAC which was slightly better than the laptop (iMac and iTunes Library).? I thought
this sounded great, and it did sound good (DQ10s with a Mcintosh MC4100).? Then I upped the power with a Crown DC300A II, used the Mcintosh as a preamp, and the DQ10s sounded even better.? Then for kicks I used a super cheap Sony CD player and spun some discs,
and was amazed at the difference...? my library was compressed and I didn't know what I was missing.
I'll interject here and ask how you've saved your music files?? If they aren't totally lossless, then changing your source is probably one of the the biggest gains you can make?
When I realized that the source made so much difference I bought a decent CD player ($100 used) Denon DCD 820 with a great DAC chip... and OMG...? now I get it!? And the DQ10s sounded amazing!? I still had issues with bass and clipping if I tried to crank it
up, until I ran across an Adcom GFA 555 II...? completely changed the soundstage and gave me headroom.
Now I have DQ W1s, and both a passive and active crossover to choose from, that are being gone through with my local tech...? I'll hook those up early next year and can't wait to hear/see the improvement!? I've also got a Krell Standard SACD player that I got
at an auction (cheap), it was DOA but the same techs are trying to bring it back to life...? if they succeed, I have no doubt it will be another leap.
Basically all this to say, your DQ10s will only sound as good as your source file!??
Also... over the last two years I've gone to Chicago (no place in Louisville except Best Buy and Home Theater stores) and listened to quite a few systems, some very high end... and to get to the sound of my modest DQ10 system, I'd have to spend 10s of thousands...?
I've got less than 4k invested, including everything I mentioned.
NOTE? My opinion, if you're hoping to get a sizable gain with a cheap DAC, probably not worth it...
Oppo is definitely overkill if you don’t have DSF files and/or want to stream video. The 205 was a once in a generation product that will never be made again. At $1300 new, it was a huge bargain. ?It will decode just about any type of audio or video file/disk except for Atmos, but you can use Bitstream output to send it to an Atmos decoder. Built like a tank, and top-notch electronics. That’s why they’re 2-3X original retail on eBay.
NAS is definitely the way to go. You can get inexpensive all in one units for a couple hundred dollars. Best to spend a little more and get something that’s expandable though, to accommodate your music collection as it grows. You can also back up your laptop hard drive.?
I’ve had a Synology NAS for about eight years and it’s been rock solid. Tons of free software comes with it too.
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On Dec 19, 2023, at 9:03?AM, SpongeSound <wm.edmiston@...> wrote:
?The Oppo seems like a bit of overkill. I don't stream video or have any Blu-ray stuff. Esp at $2500.
A NAS device may be a good idea if that frees up my laptop from having to store the music files.
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hey Russ - I also like to find bargain gear that helps up my sound! I have two Hafler DH500's and a first generation Adcom 555 amp (Nelson Pass design I believe) so I have the power-part covered. I use one Hafler to power the DQ-10's and the Adcom for the DQ sub. I mimic that same setup for a second pair of 10's and a second DQ sub in another room.
About 13 years ago I spent the better part of a week ripping and creating a FLAC music library from all my CD's (400+ maybe?). But somehow in the fog of multiple moves, etc. I can't find the flac files and my library is all MP3. I think I tried to clean up tags and converted it...anyway. To your point, I suspect to get the most out of a DAC I'd have to go back to CD's as the source.
When you were using your laptop for the music were they lossy MP3's? I hate the thought of having to re-rip all mine again as FLAC files but it's probably worth it because I don't have a convenient place to store 400+ CD's!! (Now if I just a had a good CD drive/reader!!).
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Basically Apple's version of the MP3, AAC files, which are still lossy files... maybe slightly better than MP3's...? I always ripped my CDs (300ish?) to iTunes as I had never used a good system to listen before I got back into it.? Everything was either in the car or at the office...? Also, I needed the laptop space for work and lossless files are BIG... I should have just gotten an external and ripped them all lossless, but that's hindsight.
I've looked into re-ripping everything (ugh... but needs to be done) and creating a network that is probably what you are doing, but right now I'm sinking my earmarked audio funds into the base system.? I have looked into setting up a network using hard-wired storage of lossless files and a good DAC, I've listened to similar systems that sounded "really" well.? I'm going to wait until my wife and I make one last move and we settle (we plan to change locations and abodes next year), so (hopefully!) I'll never have to move it.
When I first started trying to figure it out, I went to Pro Musica in Chicago and they pitched some of Naim's all-in-one's as a solution (CD ripper, streamer, storage, integrated amp), but that unit alone was twice what I have in the whole system.? It sounded very good (with ProAc speakers, REL sub) but it was going to be at least $15k for the basic system...? One interesting fact about their in-house library was that they not only ripped CDs, but most of their library was ripped from vinyl (that's a rabbit hole I'm getting close to... lol).? After demoing all that, he took me downstairs to listen to a pair of Quad 57's using their digital network... wow!? That is what really opened me up to vintage...? many thanks to them!
Right now Im waiting to see if my Krell player is resurrected...? if not, then I'm really considering getting a higher-end CD/SACD player that will have an on-board DAC that can be used separately...? probably gonna spend $1500-$3000...? ouch!? But, I think it will pay off in the long run and be a cornerstone for the system...? And having listened to some very expensive audiophile systems playing digital, it will still be extremely modest for the return...? and the DQ10s sound sooooo good with the right power and source material.
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You might want to look at an Zen Mini music server.? It comes with a CD ripper and DAC built in.? They are relatively small and can be had for the range of $$$’s you are talking about. ?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of russ jackson Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2023 5:50 AM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [DahlquistSpeakers] Anyone using a DAC? Which ones? Diminishing returns on vintage speakers? ? Basically Apple's version of the MP3, AAC files, which are still lossy files... maybe slightly better than MP3's...? I always ripped my CDs (300ish?) to iTunes as I had never used a good system to listen before I got back into it.? Everything was either in the car or at the office...? Also, I needed the laptop space for work and lossless files are BIG... I should have just gotten an external and ripped them all lossless, but that's hindsight.
I've looked into re-ripping everything (ugh... but needs to be done) and creating a network that is probably what you are doing, but right now I'm sinking my earmarked audio funds into the base system.? I have looked into setting up a network using hard-wired storage of lossless files and a good DAC, I've listened to similar systems that sounded "really" well.? I'm going to wait until my wife and I make one last move and we settle (we plan to change locations and abodes next year), so (hopefully!) I'll never have to move it.
When I first started trying to figure it out, I went to Pro Musica in Chicago and they pitched some of Naim's all-in-one's as a solution (CD ripper, streamer, storage, integrated amp), but that unit alone was twice what I have in the whole system.? It sounded very good (with ProAc speakers, REL sub) but it was going to be at least $15k for the basic system...? One interesting fact about their in-house library was that they not only ripped CDs, but most of their library was ripped from vinyl (that's a rabbit hole I'm getting close to... lol).? After demoing all that, he took me downstairs to listen to a pair of Quad 57's using their digital network... wow!? That is what really opened me up to vintage...? many thanks to them!
Right now Im waiting to see if my Krell player is resurrected...? if not, then I'm really considering getting a higher-end CD/SACD player that will have an on-board DAC that can be used separately...? probably gonna spend $1500-$3000...? ouch!? But, I think it will pay off in the long run and be a cornerstone for the system...? And having listened to some very expensive audiophile systems playing digital, it will still be extremely modest for the return...? and the DQ10s sound sooooo good with the right power and source material.
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That Zeni looks nice. One thing though, I don't buy CD's anymore, so once you've ripped your collection as a library, the CD player kind of becomes no-value anymore right?
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Dealing with a mass of CD's just seems unnecessary these days. Don't really have a convenient place to store them and I find I don;t listen to music as much if I have to plow through rows of CD's.
Rip em' all as flac files to a NAS and be done with it is what I'm going for. Most of the music I collect these days is pulled from Youtube. OR, I stream from Amazon Music, Spotify, etc. Once done, a free service like Plex which works well with a NAS will help categorize and let you play your collection back, all from your laptop or phone.
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Your usage model may not justify a CD ripper.? I have around 5000 albums on either vinyl, R2R or CD, and still buy used CDs of titles that are of interest.? ? Given the cost of a used 2TB Zen Mini, having the ripper is just goodness.? Your milage may vary.? BTW, Innuos does a very good job of supporting both their hardware and software products.? ? I live in an area of frequent thunderstorms.? Shortly after setting up my Zen Mini it stopped booting.? The local dealer tried to troubleshoot the issue with the help of Innuos technical support.? When they were unable to diagnose the problem, Innuos shipped to Portugal and reinstalled the software at no cost.? Turn-around took 2-1/2 weeks.? Mind you, this was a >1yr old used NAS. ?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of SpongeSound Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2023 6:48 AM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [DahlquistSpeakers] Anyone using a DAC? Which ones? Diminishing returns on vintage speakers? ? That Zeni looks nice. One thing though, I don't buy CD's anymore, so once you've ripped your collection as a library, the CD player kind of becomes no-value anymore right?
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I’ve had my DQ10’s since new, in 1980, can’t believe it’s been almost 44 years (will be in January). In that time, many sources, including Schiit Gungnir and Yggdrasil DACs. Given the abundance of digital sources, Spotify, Tidal and near infinite access to music via these sources, I decided to invest in a high quality DAC and built an R2R ANK DAC 4.1:? I modified the build with silver input wire and teflon caps, along with US and Russian military tubes, both in the audio section and power supply. I’m also using an Auralic G1 streamer and a Singxer USB bridge.?
In all the time I’ve owned these speakers, the SQ has never been better; I prefer my DAC setup to any other source, my TT, tuner and even my R2R. These Audio Note Kit DACs are amazing; it took a good 400 hours for it to burn in.
I have a hearing issue, tinnitus from hearing damage in my youth and cannot listen if the music is loud. So, I’m using an Ayre preamp with a Bryston 4b3 amplifier and most often listen below 50 db. Even at this volume, for the most part, the music is holographic; the speakers mostly disappear and thanks to the DAC.?
Given all the years I’ve owned and have been listening to my speakers, I imagine they’re my paradigm. I’ve listened to many systems and many different speakers and have not found I pair I enjoy more, except one setup that included Martin Login CS2’s, driven my Boulder pre and amps - was more than a $100,000. Also, I purchased my speaker wires from a reviewer that works for Sound Stage Network, I think it’s called, magazine and when I told him what speakers I have, he said: “Don’t sell them, don’t replace them, they’re fantastic - you’d be hard pressed to find better!”
It is most definitely worth marrying a decent digital front end with these old beauties!?
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SpongeSound
Ed Lindsey