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This is a discussion list.... I was writing it in the spirit of
discussion.

I didn't mean it personally against Ken and his judgement.

I was told he said to someone on the phone he was suing people over
the copyright because of an "agreement we made when we chose to be in
the world of form/illusion".

He also sued Ryan Rothgab who believed, and believes that ACIM was
written by Jesus (which Helen and the foundation used to INSIST on-
that Helen had nothing to do with writing it, and now they have
changed all that and claim she is the author) and Ryan went to court
without a lawyer and used what the court teaches as his "non defense".

He lost and was fined a huge amount, which, with interest is now
over $200,000.

The guy works as a clown, entertaining children, and believe ACIM
is the word of God, that he is living.

I know his peace isn't disturbed by the fine and how it will
probably be a million dollars by the time he dies, and I know he
needs or wants no defense.

We're told not to see ourselves (or others) as unfairly treated
and victims of the world we see.

But, going by Ken's beliefs that we made an agreement to go by the
laws of the world (like suing people over the ownership of WORDS) it
doesn't seem like a very nice thing to take someone who had websites
based on ACIM and bring him to court, win, and now hold a $200,000+
settlement over them.

Ken could have taken him to court, won and not asked for damages
from a person who will never be able to pay it. He could have
FORGIVEN Ryan for his mistakes- for believing the course was written
by Jesus and given to the world to live and share.

It's only words in a book, and form.

Ken uses the excuse he wants to protect the course and keep people
from changing it and using it out of context, but after reading the
Urtext and seeing home much he changed it, that's kind of a joke.

Also, seems like he could be more of an example of living what it
says, in the way he treats his "brothers in Christ".

That probably sounds judgemental, but is coming from the point of
view that he takes.

We're in the world and this is how the world is and sees things.

Maybe he's making the point that it's not possible to put "what
the course teaches" into our lives, while living in the world of form.

Doesn't sound at all like the tapes he made, that I used to listen
to right after I got the book.

But then he also used to tell about how Helen never wanted to be
known as the author of the book, and now he has proven in a court of
law that she was.

Not a big deal, just as I said- discussion on a discussion board.

without discussion it would just be a "board"

~ Carrie




--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "mstreet"
<mastreet@t...> wrote:

I sent this in early this morning but apparently it has evaporated

or something or other. So I am pasting and sending this same response
in again, and see what happens. :-) I just hope it doesn't come
across as being to harsh. I just feel that we have no way of knowing
how another is being guided.

Carrie wrote:

Of course, then he might have to try and explain how his views

about suing people over the words in it relates to what it says in

it.<<

Carrie:

I don't know, and I doubt if you know, the reason for Ken doing

whatever it is he doing. Maybe it is some agreement he made with
Helen, based on what her inner guidance was, or maybe it is part of
his own forgiveness lessons.

How does that relate to all the course says, like "to have, give

all to all" and we can only keep something by giving it away?<<

Now to me, this is talking about the Holy Spirit's Thought system.

In order for me to know that I have that Thought system in my mind, I
need to give it to all. If I restrict it to just a few, then I am
saying it is not true.

The Course tells us, our minds are split, between the wrong minded

thought system of the ego, and the Holy Spirit's Thoughts, in our
right minds. I am not different from my brother in this. And I also
share with them in the need of awakening.

The more I accept the Atonement or forgiveness (for myself) for my

wrong perceptions, the more I am allowing the love of the Holy Spirit
to reflect through me. As I do that more and more, I see that like
me, my brother too, has a right mind, that he can turn to, whenever
he so chooses. As I acknowledge that, I am strengthening it in my
mind, "to have all, give to all." I am seeing that we are truly
joined in our minds. That the separation had no effect on the truth,
that we are one.

~ Martha

Of course (it's up to them why they buy books and so many, etc.)

I was interested in this because I've heard that MT found it
interesting and wanted everyone to read it and learn more about
forgiveness.

Since this is a big part of ACIM itself, it seems odd that after all
this time he is just getting to it in what he wants others there to
learn.

As to how many books they buy, I guess since I couldn't even
afford to buy one, the idea of spending $2000 or so on many copies of
the same book is kind of mind boggling.

Unless it's now out in paperback and less expensive.

I guess they don't have to worry about money, even with the court
costs and their fund raising to buy a new home, that started a few
years back. Don't keep up with it that much, so don't know how that
ever came out, or if it is.

I could ask on the NG, Robin might read there, but all he'd
probably say is "I love you!"

LOL

And speaking of nostalgia, we've gotten into song lyrics and old
songs on the NG (seems like when a few people stop posting there, or
so much, it shifts into everyone getting along and being friendly.
Not that our peace and getting along should depend on anyone else...)

Maybe I shouldn't give you this late at night, but maybe you won't
see it till tomorrow



What were they playing in what year?

Some I remember, some I never heard of (LOL)

Oh, another memory of Salem, when I was a child my grandfather was
in a band (played french horn- dressed in a band uniform) and used to
play in concerts at Salem Willows. Also Riverside Park (Agawam?) I
only vaguely remember this, going there with my parents as a child.

Also, my daughter's boyfriend (they live with me now in VT) moved
from Georgia with a friend who was going back to Salem, because he
was interested in the witchcraft side of it. He was kind of
disppointed to find it was (now) mainly a tourist attraction.

I just heard on New England Cable News that Lynn is now enforcing a
9 year old teen curfew law- because of the crime and gang wars and
potential for more. Two teenagers have been shot recently in the area.

The kids are having a fit.

It's that any kid under 18 can't be out on the streets after
midnight (or the cops bring them home-) One 14 year old they talked
to was having a fit and saying his mother trusted him out late and he
wasn't going to do what no cop said!

What parent would want their kid out even AFTER DARK in a place like
Lynn? (LOL)

I must be getting old, I don't think kids under 18 need to be out
in the streets after midnight. It's not like they can't go to a place
or friends house and get picked up in a car.

I know, fear based, but part of the reality of the illusion.

I don't usually watch the news, at least the Boston news.

I don't want to tie in with it.

~ Carrie




--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "garyrrenard"
<garyrrenard@y...> wrote:

Hey Carrie, You're making me nostalgic mentioning all those
places in Massachusetts. It's only a couple of hours away but I
haven't been going there that much in the last ten years until I

went

last weekend. It was great; I love New England in the summer.
As far as Endeavor goes, I don't know exactly how many people
are there. If Ted wants to post he's certainly welcome to. I know
most people who join just read the posts, which is cool. It's up to
them if they want to say anything. All I can do is confirm for you
that it's true what you say about over a hundred copies being sold

at

or right around the Academy. That's all we can really say without
violating privacy. It's public knowledge how many books get sold by
an author and where, but it's nobody's business who bought them
unless they themselves want to say so.
As for why they would need so many and not just pass a few
copies around, I would think it would be because people who are
interested in the book would want to have their own copy. As with
studying the Course, people like having their own book so they can
take their time with it, mark it, read it more than once, etc,

rather

than being rushed. Unless of course they were going to skim it like
mad. But who would want to do that? Love and peace, Gary.

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Hi Martha. I'm trying to beat Carrie's record for most consecutive
postings. (LOL) Just kidding Carrie. I don't know what happened with
the postings, Martha. I usually come to the group to read the
postings and write them. I don't get postings in my inbox or send
them from my e-mail, so I haven't had a chance to have that
particular problem. I would say that if it happens to someone else
then it's probably Yahoo having technical difficulties, but if it
only happens to you then it's probably your computer. Wait, you told
me not to tell you that! Love and peace, Gary.

Hey Carrie, You're making me nostalgic mentioning all those
places in Massachusetts. It's only a couple of hours away but I
haven't been going there that much in the last ten years until I went
last weekend. It was great; I love New England in the summer.
As far as Endeavor goes, I don't know exactly how many people
are there. If Ted wants to post he's certainly welcome to. I know
most people who join just read the posts, which is cool. It's up to
them if they want to say anything. All I can do is confirm for you
that it's true what you say about over a hundred copies being sold at
or right around the Academy. That's all we can really say without
violating privacy. It's public knowledge how many books get sold by
an author and where, but it's nobody's business who bought them
unless they themselves want to say so.
As for why they would need so many and not just pass a few
copies around, I would think it would be because people who are
interested in the book would want to have their own copy. As with
studying the Course, people like having their own book so they can
take their time with it, mark it, read it more than once, etc, rather
than being rushed. Unless of course they were going to skim it like
mad. But who would want to do that? Love and peace, Gary.

Jim wrote:

At a family reunion I was given a bunch of pictures of myself from

earlier years, and I started laughing at how I have "appeared" in so
many excarnations.

I love that word, Jim; "excarnations." Thanks and peace out, Gary.

Hi Elizabeth, and welcome! I can't believe you read all of the
postings in four hours. It was all I could do to read today's. (LOL)
Thanks so much for your kind words about the book. I'm glad it makes
a difference for you. Also, Patrick (of Fearless Books) and I are
finding that most people who contact us are reading the book at least
twice, which I'm very happy about, and report a similar experience to
yours. I'm happy to have you with us and I'll be glad to answer those
questions when you have them. Love and peace, Gary.

It could be something to do with Yahoo, or maybe the planets (moon
in Sagittarius and possibly full) but also this seems to be Freaky
Friday or something.

Weird stuff seems to be the norm today.

Or maybe it is now normal?

~ Carrie




--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "mstreet"
<mastreet@t...> wrote:

I don't know what is happening, but a response I sent in to this

group, did not appear, or was not sent out to me from this group, but
then a post that I sent in later, did appear.

I am just wondering if this has something to do with my computer?

For some odd reason, it does appear to be playing tricks on me, but
there is probably a very logical explanation for all of this. Another
example is, I cannot post or even read back posts on the ng. And also
something I posted yesterday to this group, did not appear at all in
my personal "inbox" at all, but I did notice that Karen responded to
it, and then I noticed, it appeared on the Yahoo site.

Could this possibly have something to do with Yahoo? I sort of

like, a logical explanation. Don't suggest that I need a new computer
(lol) as right now that doesn't seem like an option.

Thanks Martha :-)

p.s. And Mercury isn't even retrograde. <g>

In a message dated 7/11/2003 6:24:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, BBFBBN writes:

One of the things the Ken kept emphasizing is "TO BE NORMAL"

I just got back from vacation .. and I have bills galore, and now trying to get sick. And I am not surprised ... because I had a couple of breakthroughs in Atlanta and I expect my ego to act out big time. LOL

Now I will not ask Jesus/HS to remove these problems or create situations that will make these problems go away.

But I am in touch with the fear that surrounds all these issues.

What I ask of Jesus is to see through his eyes ... show me what the fear is about ... because I know it is not about the form, even though it sure does feel like it.

In the meantime I will do what normal people do ... budget, rest, take medicine etc. But my prayer is to be able to do the ego things without all the fear that is attached to it.

Now I can intellectualize and say that it is about of lack ... fear of not being enough, etc., etc., ... but I want to experience ... if just for a moment "Peace"

The kind of Peace that is a reminder of who I am, and I cannot do that by myself ...

My fear that has manifested in the form of finances and illness etc., is really about something much deeper and that is why I need to see this with the Right Teacher.

What is fascinating is that this fear shows up no matter what ego problems shows up ... it all feels the same (my son dying, relationship breaking up, job issues, etc.) ... that is how I was finally able to understand that it is not the form of the problem but the content.

I set up these situations in order to not feel the Peace of God, and with continued practice and choosing the Right Teacher I will gradually stop doing things to sabotage myself, namely, undoing the ego.

My favorite statement that Ken makes (which I realize is not in the Course) but is about one of the Laws of Chaos .. attraction of pain. Ken uses the analogy of sending out vicious dogs to find people, situations, etc., that will keep me from experiencing Peace ... and when they come back with blood and flesh and see their gnawing teeth (and it is not a pretty sight LOL) I am in horror at what I am seeing ... forgetting that I asked for this.

In Gary's book, I think the one thing that stayed me is their persistence in telling Gary to Forgive, to continuing studying and keep choosing the Right Teacher and they assured him that he could not go wrong, and this is exactly what Jesus promises.

The more I choose the Right Teacher, the more opportunities I have to forgive ... thus undoing the ego ... thus removing the block to Love's presence.


"Ideas Leave Not Their Source"

In a message dated 7/11/2003 11:26:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, starchild1124@... writes:

Of course, then he might have to try and explain how his views
about suing people over the words in it relates to what it
says in it.

One of the things the Ken kept emphasizing is "TO BE NORMAL"

Just be aware of what you are doing and remember to have the Right Teacher with you.

We are getting content and form mixed up.

If you are sick, you do what sick people do, take medicine, go see a doctor

Do what normal people do, just remember to ask for help.



"Ideas Leave Not Their Source"

In a message dated 7/11/2003 12:10:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, lklanglois@... writes:

As I have mentioned, I have in my home a 25 year old young woman, a student of ACIM who came to me asking for help as she is involved in a relationship where there has been some
"seeming" <smile> lies and a feeling of abandonment, etc.

Now I see why Ken does not recommend the Course for young people.


"Ideas Leave Not Their Source"

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Maybe another example of reality (as we know it) coming unglued...
or maybe just a fluke with the internet.

I'm not even sure I can explain it.

This morning I found in my INBOX a (new)email from someone I had
once been in an egroup with. Around 3 years ago.

At the time I was having a problem with some of the regulars, and
this person (who was more low key) wrote me a letter of "support"
saying how much she enjoyed my posts and how open and outspoken I
was, etc.

I wrote her back and we exchanged a few emails at the time.

I didn't notice this morning, as I clicked on REPLY and wrote
something back (to what I thought was another email from her- maybe
in support of what seemed to have happened here?) that the reply was
going to a group at "onelist" (which was later bought out and change
to yahoo egroups) and the date on it was 3 Mar 2096!

And on the bottom of it was a letter from me, it was in response
to, dated March 2000.

So, I wrote a response and sent it, and even though it was
to "onelist" which no longer exhists, apparently it was received by
the egroup and the person who's name was on it read it.

SHE THOUGHT I WAS WRITING TO HER NOW, responding to a letter from
2000! She wrote back and said it was good to hear from me after all
this time and answering a letter from 2000 sounded like something she
might do. And to refresh her memory, WHICH list was it referring to?

I had saved her origainl letter (of support) way back on the
earlier pages of my Yahoo email and I went to look and make sure it
was the same letter I had gotten this morning and it was no longer
there!

Thus, I received a letter in my IN BOX that I had orignally
received in 2003 (though it was now dated 2096- and I didn't even
have a computer till 1998) and thinking it was current, responded to
it- to an address of a group that was no longer "onelist". The person
got it, and wrote back, thinking I had just written to her after 3
years "out of the blue".

I just checked an the date on for the letter (unopenned) in my INBOX
says 1/27. The dates on the full hearder info say Mar 2000. Except
for the one place that says 3 Mar 2096.

I am waiting to see if she has any ideas about this, now that I've
written back and told her all this. And I hadn't written to her this
morning in response to the one I thought I had just received from her.

Maybe computers are really taking over and manipulating our lives?

More likely it's some sort of guidance to check out the egroup
(which I am still member of, and is now Yahoo egroups) that I haven't
thought about in a long time. Or else it's been stuck in a yahoo mail
bottleneck for 3 years and just go through!

Just thought I'd write about this here.

I mean Gary wrote a book based on conversations with ghosts (LOL)

~ Carrie

Gary's book that is.

I've been told the number of copies that were sold to Endeaver
Academy and have been getting email updates saying that they have now
bought (ordered) another large amount.

In Karen's post the other day (as "Zak") she said "you can ask Ted".

I don't mean this at all to question the truth of this, but since
Ted (Hector) is listed as a member here- thought he doesn't seem to
have ever posted, I thought maybe if he reads this he might explain
more about this.

Like just what they are finding so interesting about this book, they
ordered such a large number of copies and now have ordered more?

Someone mentioned (somewhere) that MT loves it and how it talks
about "forgiveness" which is something he hadn't thought about before
(rough quote from memory). How could someone who claims to be an
Enlightened Master, teaching ACIM have not thought about (or taught)
forgiveness, before?

This is strictly for the sake of discussion, and maybe if Ted
checks in here, and has some free time, he can tell us more about
this.

Also, how many people are actually at Endeaver Academy now?

So that they need such a large number of books (over 100 I think)
and couldn't just several copies around, between them?

Oh, changing the subject, while looking at the member list to see
who I might already know, I saw an email address "kelpiep" Nobody I
know (that I know of) but... we happen to have an Australian Kelpie
(dog) who's parents were imported from Australia.

I thought the name might refer to another kelpie owner?

Ours came to us more by accident than be choice and we'd never
heard of the breed before. If you don't have a 300 acre sheep farm
they can be trained to herd on, they are a challenge to live with.
But, aside from that.... this one is sweet and VERY smart.

I guess, like people no dogs come into our life by accident.


~ Carrie

What I thought when I read this is...

"We are all teachers to/for each other"

And "nobody comes into our lives by accident".

I have two young roommates (my daughter and her boyfriend, who was
an adopted/abused kid who left home as a teen and has a lot of issues
about living with "family")

Sometimes I remember the quotes I just told you, myself.

Thanks for sharing so much,

~ Carrie









--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., LindaL
<lklanglois@y...> wrote:

This one is lovingly for Red Pill (and anyone else who might want

it), because it is, I hope, practical ways to use the metaphysics of
the Course. An example or examples. I'm not sure what I'm going to
write yet.

As I have mentioned, I have in my home a 25 year old young woman, a

student of ACIM who came to me asking for help as she is involved in
a relationship where there has been some "seeming" <smile> lies and a
feeling of abandonment, etc. I am renting her a room for an
indefinite amount of time. Her fiance is also a student of ACIM, and
they are both friends of mine, although I have to admit that before
this happened, I hardly really knew them. Just had seen them at
discussion groups, and I go very infrequently (once every few months
maybe!), so you can see I didn't know her very well. So I feel she
has been sent to me to teach her and also to learn from. One thing I
am learning is how to help someone. Also, it is great, because we
have what amounts to at least one intensive study a day. Last night
and this morning after some things I told her, she says are a "huge"
help to her, so I am sharing. Mind you, this is an ongoing
experiment - this technique I have used on myself and which she

is trying. It's about how to perceive when you are so emotionally

involved in an argument or sorrow or whatever that you cannot get out
of the ego. It uses heavily the metaphysics of there not being a
world. I figure if you cannot use this in a practcal manner, what
good is it? Here is an example where it is used.

1) This first part is a good technique to use whenever - to get

into the habit of looking at the world this way. Take watching a
movie as an example. The projector is what projects the movie onto
the screen. And yet it "seems" as if the movie is real. In fact,
while watching it, I will forget it's not real sometimes and feel
emotional while identifying with the characters - who are not real.
To me, the projector represents the decision maker choosing to
project either ego or spirit thoughts onto the screen called the
world. The movie is the projection. I, sitting in the audience am
also the decision maker choosing to either believe it's real or not.
If I think it's real, I'm in the ego. If I know it's not real, I am
choosing to look with the Holy Spirit. So one thing I like to
practice doing is watch movies or TV or whatever and note when I am
perceiving whatever I am watching as real. If I find myself getting
emotionally involved in it, then I realize I am believing it is real.
I

find the Jerry Springer Show great for this, for example. See, I

think of it this way. Even scientifically there is no way at all to
prove that the world is real. The only way we could test to see if it
were real is to use the body. No matter what experiment used, it
would involve touching, seeing, hearing, etc. and there is no way to
get outside this world to observe. Scientifically speaking, too, it
has been found that dreams are just as real to a brain as reality. It
will react in exactly the same way. There has been exhaustive
scientific writing done on this, but no need for me. I am going to
assume that the world is not real, because I am taking ACIM to mean
what it says as an experiment. J didn't say we had to believe it;
just try it. So whenever I think of it, I practice this. Even not
watching TV, but while I am having a conversation with someone, for
instance, I will get in touch with the decision maker and while
talking, the part of me that is the observer, the part that

can stand back and watch, which is the decision maker will just

kind of note that what I am seeing is not real. I have found that
most times it is just about impossible to remaim emotional while
observing that it is not real, and what I am doing, too, is stepping
aside so that the HS can work.

The other part of this - going even further - is that I will

imagine that I am actually in a virtual reality movie or play - and
that I am one of the characters in the play. My part in the play is
the role of Linda Langlois (currently). So I act the role of Linda -
her personality - and practice, also, observing her playing this
role - just as I practice watching movies and observing that it is
not real. In the movies I thoroughly enjoy it and can laugh, cry,
etc. all the while knowing it is not real. The same with regular
life.

OK. So my roommate came to me last night and said she had been

feeling sad and was having trouble coping all day. She was upset and
angry and trying not to be. She told me all these things she had been
trying to get her emotions to do. Things she had been telling herself
in trying to see in another way. I asked her if she had tried asking
HS for help. In surprise she said, no! I suggested that might be a
good first step. LOL. But she said she was so tired of being
meditative of praying all the time. See, she had been trying so hard
to be holy that it was just wearing on her. That's a signal to me
that it's the ego. The ego makes everything so hard. So I suggested
she let herself experience all the emotions she wanted but while
doing so to be in touch with the decision maker and watching herself
at the same time. Just with interest - not trying to stop it, but
just realizing it wasn't real - it was the ego - even while allowing
full vent. Scream, cry, thrash around, whatever. (I'm

getting a little carried away here. LOL) I told her that it with

resistance that the ego keeps hold. The more we resist, the stronger
the ego will "seem". That if she practiced this, it is good, because
it is a way of getting out of the way and, therefore, allowing J or
HS to help. It is a way of sidestepping. She told me she was going to
go to her room and have a good cry. Well, amazingly, she came out
quite soon saying that well, that didn't take long. We talked about
it and she realized that she had been trying to change her behavior
by being spiritual and had instead started getting awfully serious
and not laughing so much. I suggested she have fun. All the fun and
all the crying and whatever she wanted to do. It is not the actions
we have to monitor, but the decision to look upon it as real. That is
the perception part. Then HS takes it from there. When we feel
immobilized and helpless, this is sometimes the only thing we can do.
Get in touch with the observer - the decision

maker.

2) Saved the best for the last. "I am not upset for the reason I

think." USE the upset for getting in touch with what is really
upsetting you. This is how I first started loving the disease of
unforgiveness - or upset. LOL. (Tongue firmly in cheek.) When I am
really, really upset, it is the PERFECT time to get in touch with
what I am really upset about - within the deep dark recesses of the
hidden ego. The ego uses the world to hide what I am really
frightened about, and, yes, it is all fear. I use the whole world
continually symbolizes the original upset or when we identify more
and more with the HS - with love. But when I am upset, it is
symbolilzing the separation, the creation of the world, etc. When I
can step back and see the symbolism "out there" and then realize that
it is really a projection of what I am feeling unconsiously, I can
change my perception from out there to looking at myself. I may have
some major resistance as I described in the lie story, but if I
persist and

am willing to "feel the pain", with the HS's help, I can do it.

For instance, my roommate's fiance will leave her to see another
woman. She feels abandoned and hurt and, therefore, angry. What to
do? Well, it doesn't matter what she does, I told her, and as I
illustrated above. Whatever she feels like. But if she can remove
herself from the situation enough to where she can ask herself, how
can I see this symbolism as being a projection of what is going on in
me - or What is this for? - then she can start to allow what is
buried deeply to come forth. I believe that all our longings in
relationships for love, etc. are really longing for the love of God.
WE MISS HIM WITH OUR WHOLE HEARTS whether we remember it or not. It
felt like her boyfriend abandoned her. Does it feel like God has
abandoned her? While she is open in pain about her boyfriend, she is
much more likely to get in touch with that - the real issue. As we
open up more and more like that, we can go deeper and deeper over

time actually feeling other parts like realizing that she feels

guilty because she believes she has abandoned God. I spoke with her
how in reality it is impossible that God could ever abandon her. I
posted the citation from Lesson 132 where it talks about how it is
impossible to tell where God ends and the Son begins. If that is so,
how could we ever be separate, and, therefore, how could we be
abandoned? What can be thrust off of God if it is impossible to
separate because there would be no "part" that is you AND God. That
part of me that God created as the Son is now part of the Son. How
could God cut off part of Himself, and why would He want to? I am not
speaking of the character in the play here, but much more. This
character here named Linda cannot even begin to imagine being larger
than the whole universe!

It has been my experience that as I have used these incidents of

pain to change perception, the pain disappears and there is peace,
but also I have developed more trust, because it is getting at the
root of the fear. Getting to the cause rather than to the effects.
What is out there is effects and not cause! Time to get to the root
of the matter, I say! Here, here!!

Way, way too much writing for me. Hope this helps.

Love,
Linda


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