Latest reviews and reader's comments
For those of you who may be interested in seeing comments
from readers or the latest reviews of "The Disappearance of the
Universe" the Fearless Books website has a page dedicated to it which
also has links to excerpts from the book and an interview with me.
This is also a good page link to give to people who may be interested
in finding out more about the book. Please feel free to share it with
your friends! Thanks and peace, Gary.
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Re: Scott's Creation Dilemma
Often one cannot solve a situation using the same mindset that created it in the first place.? Many great inventions and philosophical concepts?came about when their creators got out of the box.? Similarly, we cannot reason creation using linear-time or linear-space thinking.? Words and human languages arised from this dream world of forms and are limited in their usefulness in conveying messages from the God reality.? If linear logic cannot explain our existence, it certainly cannot explain creation.? If we accept the Course's message that this is not God's reality, we could accept God's reality that creation is beyond the concept of forms and?causality.
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Re: Greetings to new members!
--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "youngnel97" <youngnel97@y...> wrote: To start out, I
find this book to be very powerful because it expands many of the
concepts of ACIM. I would love to hear other people's impressions. I was introduced to the Course in 1988, and besides the materials that I would get from FACIM during the 2-3 year period, no other book has caught my attention like this book. I would try to read other materials, but nothing held my interest. Then the book was briefly mentioned in another course group and I knew that for this person to mention another book ... well there was something to it. Now I carry this book everywhere with me, home, work, bathroom, bedroom and I just smile. :-) I plan on attending A Course in Miracles Seminar in Atlanta at the end of June and hope to have finished this book by then, I am a slow reader. LOL. But J knew I needed extra push with the Course so I guess this is why I am reading this book. Peace
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Re: Scott's Creation Dilemma
Does the?breath that "seems" to expand as the chest rises create a separate being? Does the breath when the chest sinks back down "seem" to get destroyed or become less?
?
One - Oneness - is like the breath in a way. It "seems" to expand and contract, but it doesn't really change. It isn't me that is Linda that creates, anyway. I am merely one being dreamed. It is the dreamer, and as the Course says it is impossible to tell where God ends and Christ begines. There is no?time, really - so no creations who came before or will come after, because there is no past nor future. It is only in the world that there is change.
?
The Course in order to communicate with us on the level we can understand at this moment speaks in symbols of symbols.
scottriehl2 wrote:
How can a being create a being with the ability to create if that
original being was itself not created? With the help of the course I
finally solved the riddle "Who came first - the chicken or the egg?"
The answer is "Neither - they both don't exist." Meaning to say - if
they are both real, the situation is impossible, because whichever
one you say came first - I could say the other one came before it.
But if they are both imaginary, you can just make up the idea of a
chicken and then make up the idea that it lays an egg. You can start
the loop anywhere you want. So, I solve that amazing core life
question and where does it get me? Nowhere. The course says that I am
a created being and I in turn create. That is a chicken and egg
scenario. And real chicken and egg scenarios are impossible. You have
to have a starting point. So, what is the solution? God is the
starting point. He was not created. Which leads me back to my
original question. How can a being create a being with the ability to
create if that original being was itself not created? You (meaning
God) are all there is and then one day decide to go into the infinite
self-extension business? Should I feel unique that every being who
comes after me has a creator who's been created but I'm the only one
with a creator who hasn't?
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Re: Scott's Creation Dilemma
In a message dated 5/20/03 6:53:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lklanglois@... writes:
The Course in order to communicate with us on the level we can understand at this moment speaks in symbols of symbols.
Yes Linda, that is it.? Upon Gary's first appearance with Pursah and
Arten, it was noted that they were appearing as (symbols) whose words
would help facilitate the disappearance of the universe (pg. 5).
Pursah goes on to say: "...we are symbols because anything that
appears to take on a form is symbolic.? The only true reality is God
or pure spirit, which in Heaven are synonymous, and God and pure
spirit have no form.? Thus there is no concept of male or female in
Heaven.? Any form, including your own body, that is experienced in
the false universe of perception must, by definition, be symbolic of
something else..."
When I first read this, something went up a notch in how I would now
read and study the Course.? Pursah's introduction was exactly
consistent with the Course.
"...words are but symbols of symbols.? They are thus twiced removed
from reality." (M-21.1:9-10)? Jesus says in Chapter 6, "The body is the
symbol of what you think you are." (T-6.V.(A)2:2)
"As we have already emphasized, every idea begins in the mind of
the thinker.? Therefore, what extends from the mind is still in it,
and from what it extends it knows itself." (T.6.III.l:1-2)
-----------------
peace
Billy
|
Re: Scott's Creation Dilemma
Bravo, Scott. You make some great observatiions. Of course the
question itself is time based. The word "eternal" actually
means "without time." You could also add in the concept of "without
limits." As Arten or Pursah (I'd have to look up which one) said in
the book, real love must be shared, and that's why you have extension
in Heaven. Also, there are no limits there, which is beyond our
limited comprehension. Plus, since there is no time, creation must
happen simultaneously, which means, believe it or not, that
the "original" creator, God, did not come before or after you, but at
the same instant! That's a mind blower to a time-based, finite mind,
but not to spirit, which cannot be limited by time or space. Thanks
and peace, Gary.
|
How can a being create a being with the ability to create if that
original being was itself not created? With the help of the course I
finally solved the riddle "Who came first - the chicken or the egg?"
The answer is "Neither - they both don't exist." Meaning to say - if
they are both real, the situation is impossible, because whichever
one you say came first - I could say the other one came before it.
But if they are both imaginary, you can just make up the idea of a
chicken and then make up the idea that it lays an egg. You can start
the loop anywhere you want. So, I solve that amazing core life
question and where does it get me? Nowhere. The course says that I am
a created being and I in turn create. That is a chicken and egg
scenario. And real chicken and egg scenarios are impossible. You have
to have a starting point. So, what is the solution? God is the
starting point. He was not created. Which leads me back to my
original question. How can a being create a being with the ability to
create if that original being was itself not created? You (meaning
God) are all there is and then one day decide to go into the infinite
self-extension business? Should I feel unique that every being who
comes after me has a creator who's been created but I'm the only one
with a creator who hasn't?
|
Switching to garyrrenard I.D.
Just thought I'd let you know I'm switching my I.D. to garyrrenard.
It's been suggested that this will make it easier for people to
recognize. I won't post anymore with g35813. However, you can still e-
mail me at g35813@... if you have a question you'd like to ask.
Thanks and peace, Gary.
|
Re: A "Fringe Benefit" of Forgiveness
Yes Billy, That was very helpful. For me, it's especially when you
say you learn by first, asking for correction, and second, by always
being aware of how you are perceiving your brothers. Thanks and
peace, Gary.
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Re: A "Fringe Benefit" of Forgiveness
Thanks, Jim. Talk about a "holy encounter!" That's a great story
about a wonderful experience. Thanks for sharing it with us. Peace,
Gary.
|
Re: A "Fringe Benefit" of Forgiveness
In a message dated 5/16/03 11:09:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, g35813@... writes:
For my own curiousity, I'd be interested in hearing how anyone
has felt they were more truly guided and could more clearly hear the
Voice of the Holy Spirit either by forgiveness or through the
practice of prayer and meditation
Perhaps by the peace I feel in the present moment, is indication
that somewhere within, the mind is forgiving.? Projecting a
split mind, there is always the temptation to indulge the ego's
voice, as we learn to utilize that choice by looking at its
purpose.? My experience of the Course is that it is a serious
study.? We have to be a part of the process, by going into the
heart of its message that the Son of God is guiltless, and look
at the temptation that is an active choice to prove it wrong.?
Forgiveness is the simplest thing in the world to do, but there
is a tremendous resistance to the actual process.? We all have
a strong? investment in being right.? We are so sure of
our judgments, and so it takes what seems like "time,"
to relinquish control.? In my experience, this is why it is
difficult to truly follow guidance by the Holy Spirit.? I learn by
first, asking for correction, and second, by always being
aware of how I am perceiving my brothers.? I hope this is
helpful.
Billy
|
Re: A "Fringe Benefit" of Forgiveness
??? I was speeding down the San Diego Freeway somewhere in
Orange County, California, and meditating on the phrase from the Bible, "Behold
the Son of God, with whom He is well pleased." I was doing daily ACIM Workbook
lessons, as is my habit.
??? For no apparent reason I spoke that quotation aloud.
Suddenly I heard a persistent honking from a car alongside of me, looked at who
might be honking at me and saw my middle son, a student of San Diego State
University. Since he was nearly 90 miles form his college I was surprised to see
him, and even more surprised that he had appeared just as I had quoted that
verse from the Bible. I was awestruck by the amount of love that engulfed me as
I waived, and watched him zoom off to his destination.? A very clear voice
inside my head said, "When you greet everyone the way you greeted your son, you
will know what heaven is."
?
?
Jim
Dunn
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
???? On P.224 of
"Disappearance" Arten said to me, "Even though the
Holy Spirit doesn't do
anything in the world, His interpretation of
form can help you see more
clearly what you should do here. That's
just a fringe benefit of choosing
Him as your Teacher, not the main
reason, which is salvation."
???? Although Arten was talking about how much more
clearly you can
receive guidance when your mind is at peace from looking
at the world
with true perception, we also talked later about the subject
of
receiving guidance in the chapter, "True Prayer and
Abundance."
???? For my own curiousity, I'd be
interested in hearing how anyone
has felt they were more truly guided and
could more clearly hear the
Voice of the Holy Spirit either by forgiveness
or through the
practice of prayer and meditation. Love and peace, Gary.
To
unsubscribe from this group, send an email
to:
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A "Fringe Benefit" of Forgiveness
On P.224 of "Disappearance" Arten said to me, "Even though the
Holy Spirit doesn't do anything in the world, His interpretation of
form can help you see more clearly what you should do here. That's
just a fringe benefit of choosing Him as your Teacher, not the main
reason, which is salvation."
Although Arten was talking about how much more clearly you can
receive guidance when your mind is at peace from looking at the world
with true perception, we also talked later about the subject of
receiving guidance in the chapter, "True Prayer and Abundance."
For my own curiousity, I'd be interested in hearing how anyone
has felt they were more truly guided and could more clearly hear the
Voice of the Holy Spirit either by forgiveness or through the
practice of prayer and meditation. Love and peace, Gary.
|
I agree Sheila. For most people, the best environment to do the course is the one they are presently in. Not that it makes it easy, but it works as an reminder that it is "a required course". The relationships with people at home or at work make the mess in our mind very visible and often quite painful and therefore hard to forget or deny.
I have been keeping in touch with the Course for 3 years, but I didn't seem to have enough time to give it appropriate amount of time to be considered a serious course student. But when our doughter was born and I had to face the negative emotions which came as my reaction to watching a crying baby, I figured out that the time came to become more serious about my mind trainig in order to deal with it in a way I would possibly call successful. I can't imagine a better classroom for me since there were no escape nor a way how to fix the situation on the level of the illusion.
So I still have a long way ahead, but at least I got myself moving again :o)
Petr
|
Beautifully stated, Jim!
You wrote:
" Everything is a lesson God would have me learn, and all learning
is really forgiving.. So bring on the appearance of conflict. Each time
I encounter it, I will either respond from fear, and go to war, or
respond from love, and forgive."
My daily struggle, if and when these days, is accepting my husband and
his own inner struggles, along with the resulting and seemingly offensive
and childish behaviors. I am especially concerned about our teenage
children who perceive him negatively for the most part.
The book and the Course have assisted me in learning what a powerful
gift this man has been to me and our family. It seems that I do choose
each day whether to respond in love or fear, and thanks be to the Holy
Spirit it's usually love, and forgiveness certainly follows. But it means that
I am also learning to forgive myself and accept my own behaviors,
attitudes, and perceptions.
This is a quote I will tape onto my computer monitor, as it simply and
beautifully nips it in the bud for me! When I struggle with my own perception
of anyone at all as appearing less than the child of God s/he is intended to be,
I will read:
"Everything is a lesson God would have me learn, and all learning
is really forgiving.. So bring on the appearance of conflict. Each time
I encounter it, I will either respond from fear, and go to war, or
respond from love, and forgive."
Jim, this is my gift this day! Thank you!!!
Sheila
Namast: I honor in you the divinity that I honor within myself and I know we are one.
From: "Jim Dunn" <jldunn8@...>
Reply-To: Disappearance_of_the_Universe@...
To: <Disappearance_of_the_Universe@...>
Subject: RE: [Disappearance_of_the_Universe] Gary to Petr, youngnel, and Jim on "Attitudes."
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 21:50:08 -0700
Gary,
In the groups I have led and the on line chats, I try to emphasize that
we will always find what we seek. If we want peace, we will laugh gently
at the "seeming" discord within the course community. Remember, the
need to be right will surface as long as we still think it holds some
value. ACIM has convinced me that no one else has to "do" the course..
It was created by J entirely for me. If I can understand that
"Salvation of the world depends on me," then I will not care if Ken and
Robert agree of disagree, since I invented both of them in my dreamscape
anyway. Everything is a lesson God would have me learn, and all learning
is really forgiving.. So bring on the appearance of conflict. Each time
I encounter it, I will either respond from fear, and go to war, or
respond from love, and forgive.
Bless you Gary for this wonderful, uncompromising book.
Jim Dunn
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary [mailto:g35813@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 11:51 AM
To: Disappearance_of_the_Universe@...
Subject: [Disappearance_of_the_Universe] Gary to Petr, youngnel, and Jim
on "Attitudes."
I think all three of you, within your fine observations about
duality, non-duality, etc. managed to come up with the Answer. That's
a very good sign. Petr very wisely put the focus back on the Workbook
and forgiveness, as did youngnel ("constant practice of the
teaching") and you Jim, in the way you look at things. As my
contribution, I'd like to put here a slightly edited e-mail I sent to
a fellow Course student who has been on a spiritual path for many,
many years and has studied the Course without it producing very much
happiness in his life so far. I think it speaks to a very important
issue and can be of value to all of us:
Dear ----, You mention how confusing it is to have highly intelligent
people like Wapnick and Perry disagreeing with each other. Perhaps we
should take more note of the things they don't disagree about. I
remind you of the following two statements from ACIM:
"This is not a course in philosophical speculation, nor is it
concerned with precise terminology. It is concerned only with
Atonement, or the correction of perception. The means of the
Atonement is forgiveness." (CL77)
"Forgiveness is the central theme that runs throughout salvation,
holding all its parts in meaningful relationships, the course it runs
directed and its outcome sure." (W324)
My teachers stressed that without forgiveness, metaphysics are
useless, yet time and time again I see people engage in philosophical
speculation when talking about the Course; at the same time, I see
very little discussion about forgiveness or specific examples of
people doing it. That's why I think there are a lot of unhappy people
doing the course. I don't know you specifically, so I'm only speaking
in general terms here. And I include myself when I say that my
teachers were very clear that if I wanted to be happy, I'd use the
Course for what it was meant for.
I see all around me, from my study group, to friends, to people
throughout the Course community, very few people using the Course
purposefully and habitually to practice forgiveness. I think I could
count on two hands the people I've seen really practicing the Course!
(But then I've only been looking for 10 years.)
So if you want to be truly unique, you have a marvelous
opportunity. If you ever read my book again, I would try to notice
most the parts that deal with forgiveness of our relationships and
the situations that confront us. I'd say no more than 4 out of the 17
chapters in my book were dominated by metaphysics, but the theme of
forgiveness can be found in all 17. I'm not suggesting that you
didn't see those things the first time; I'm suggesting they must be
utilized with great effort until they become almost automatic. For as
the Course says, "Miracles are habits, and should be involuntary."
(T3) In other words, unintentional. It takes a long time for that to
become such a deep part of you, but it is possible. I wish you God's
speed. Peace, Gary.
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Re: Gary to Petr, youngnel, and Jim on "Attitudes."
Gary,
?
In the
groups I have led and the on line chats, I try to emphasize that we will always
find what we seek. If we want peace, we will laugh gently at the "seeming"
discord within the course community.? Remember, the need to be right will
surface as long as we still think it holds some value. ACIM has convinced me
that no one else has to "do" the course.. It was created by J entirely for
me.? If I can understand that "Salvation of the world depends on me," then
I will not care if Ken and Robert agree of disagree, since I invented both of
them in my dreamscape anyway. Everything is a lesson God would have me learn,
and all learning is really forgiving.. So bring on the appearance of conflict.
Each time I encounter it, I will either respond from fear, and go to war, or
respond from love, and forgive.
?
Bless
you Gary for this wonderful, uncompromising book.
?
?
?
Jim
Dunn
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I think all three of you, within your
fine observations about
duality, non-duality, etc. managed to come up with
the Answer. That's
a very good sign. Petr very wisely put the focus back
on the Workbook
and forgiveness, as did youngnel ("constant practice of
the
teaching") and you Jim, in the way you look at things. As my
contribution, I'd like to put here a slightly edited e-mail I sent to
a fellow Course student who has been on a spiritual path for many,
many years and has studied the Course without it producing very much
happiness in his life so far. I think it speaks to a very important
issue and can be of value to all of us:
Dear ----, You mention how
confusing it is to have highly intelligent
people like Wapnick and Perry
disagreeing with each other. Perhaps we
should take more note of the
things they don't disagree about. I
remind you of the following two
statements from ACIM:
"This is not a course in philosophical
speculation, nor is it
concerned with precise terminology. It is concerned
only with
Atonement, or the correction of perception. The means of the
Atonement is forgiveness." (CL77)
"Forgiveness is the central theme
that runs throughout salvation,
holding all its parts in meaningful
relationships, the course it runs
directed and its outcome sure."
(W324)
My teachers stressed that without forgiveness, metaphysics are
useless, yet time and time again I see people engage in philosophical
speculation when talking about the Course; at the same time, I see
very little discussion about forgiveness or specific examples of
people doing it. That's why I think there are a lot of unhappy people
doing the course. I don't know you specifically, so I'm only speaking
in general terms here. And I include myself when I say that my
teachers were very clear that if I wanted to be happy, I'd use the
Course for what it was meant for.
?? I see all around me,
from my study group, to friends, to people
throughout the Course
community, very few people using the Course
purposefully and habitually to
practice forgiveness. I think I could
count on two hands the people I've
seen really practicing the Course!
(But then I've only been looking for 10
years.)
???? So if you want to be truly unique, you
have a marvelous
opportunity. If you ever read my book again, I would try
to notice
most the parts that deal with forgiveness of our relationships
and
the situations that confront us. I'd say no more than 4 out of the 17
chapters in my book were dominated by metaphysics, but the theme of
forgiveness can be found in all 17. I'm not suggesting that you
didn't
see those things the first time; I'm suggesting they must be
utilized with
great effort until they become almost automatic. For as
the Course says,
"Miracles are habits, and should be involuntary."
(T3) In other words,
unintentional. It takes a long time for that to
become such a deep part of
you, but it is possible. I wish you God's
speed. Peace, Gary.
To
unsubscribe from this group, send an email
to:
Disappearance_of_the_Universe-unsubscribe@...
Your
use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .
|
So glad to find this list!!!
Hello, Everyone!
Never mind the week long search for you, but "I'm just so proud to be here!" as Minnie Pearl might have said! =)
I've read through the thread of messages thus far, and want to thank youngnel97 for starting this list! It will be a pleasure to have Spirit a part of our lives again through this list; ie, NOT to have factioned discussions and egos abounding! LOL... Whew! It's hard work seeing ego everywhere and then realizing that you must have an issue or two hanging out everywhere!!! =)
All for now, but want to get into discussions soon on the topic of forgiveness...that daily agenda of mine these days!
Love and Blessings to all...
Sheila
Namast: I honor in you the divinity that I honor within myself and I know we are one.
_________________________________________________________________
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Re: Attitudes of Learning
--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "Petr Cisar" <pc@g...> wrote: Hi all I must admit that this topic made me to think and to get no clear answer. Petr, I understand the thoughts and questions. We all are at times in the same mindset at any given moment. The fact that you see this world as not real and that God has not gone mad and condemned us to hell is a sign you have moved way beyond dualism. I have my times of struggle and understanding yet there are also those times of enlightenment and vision. It is a process, which for me, is not always an easy one. Remember there are many lifetimes of undoing. I have noted several quotes from the Course that really help me in times when hopelessness, confusion, and frustration creep in. I might add I have them more times, than I would like. I also know the key is forgiveness and remembering who we really are. The introduction to chapter 24 was a revelation. I spent many nights reading it repeatedly. Chapter 21, VIII 5 Do I desire a world I rule instead of one the rules me? Do I desire a world where I am powerful instead of helpless? Do I desire a world in which I have no enemies and cannot sin? And do I want to see what I denied BECAUSE it is the truth? Forget not that the choice of sin or truth, helplessness or power, is the choice of whether to attack or heal. Chapter 24, Introduction Forget not that the motivation of this course is the attainment and the keeping of the state of peace. Given this state the mind is quiet, and the condition in which God is remembered is attained. It is not necessary to tell Him what to do. He will not fail. Where He can enter, there He is already. And can it be He cannot enter where He wills to be? Peace will be yours because it is His WILL. Can you believe a shadow can hold back the Will that holds the universe secure? God does not wait upon illusions to let Him be Himself. No more His Son. They are. And what illusions that idly seems to drift between Them has the power to defeat what is Their Will? To learn this course requires willingness to question every value that you hold. Not one can be kept hidden and obscure but it will jeopardize your learning. No belief is neutral. Every one has the power to dictate each decision you make. For a decision is a conclusion based on everything that you believe. It is the outcome of belief, and follows it as surely as does suffering follow guilt and freedom sinlessness. There is no substitute for peace. What God creates has no alternative. The truth arises from what He knows. And your decisions come from your beliefs as certainly as all creation rose in His mind because of what He knows. Lesson 126 "All that I give is given to myself. The Help I need to learn that this is true Is with me now. And I will trust in Him."
|
Gary to Petr, youngnel, and Jim on "Attitudes."
I think all three of you, within your fine observations about
duality, non-duality, etc. managed to come up with the Answer. That's
a very good sign. Petr very wisely put the focus back on the Workbook
and forgiveness, as did youngnel ("constant practice of the
teaching") and you Jim, in the way you look at things. As my
contribution, I'd like to put here a slightly edited e-mail I sent to
a fellow Course student who has been on a spiritual path for many,
many years and has studied the Course without it producing very much
happiness in his life so far. I think it speaks to a very important
issue and can be of value to all of us:
Dear ----, You mention how confusing it is to have highly intelligent
people like Wapnick and Perry disagreeing with each other. Perhaps we
should take more note of the things they don't disagree about. I
remind you of the following two statements from ACIM:
"This is not a course in philosophical speculation, nor is it
concerned with precise terminology. It is concerned only with
Atonement, or the correction of perception. The means of the
Atonement is forgiveness." (CL77)
"Forgiveness is the central theme that runs throughout salvation,
holding all its parts in meaningful relationships, the course it runs
directed and its outcome sure." (W324)
My teachers stressed that without forgiveness, metaphysics are
useless, yet time and time again I see people engage in philosophical
speculation when talking about the Course; at the same time, I see
very little discussion about forgiveness or specific examples of
people doing it. That's why I think there are a lot of unhappy people
doing the course. I don't know you specifically, so I'm only speaking
in general terms here. And I include myself when I say that my
teachers were very clear that if I wanted to be happy, I'd use the
Course for what it was meant for.
I see all around me, from my study group, to friends, to people
throughout the Course community, very few people using the Course
purposefully and habitually to practice forgiveness. I think I could
count on two hands the people I've seen really practicing the Course!
(But then I've only been looking for 10 years.)
So if you want to be truly unique, you have a marvelous
opportunity. If you ever read my book again, I would try to notice
most the parts that deal with forgiveness of our relationships and
the situations that confront us. I'd say no more than 4 out of the 17
chapters in my book were dominated by metaphysics, but the theme of
forgiveness can be found in all 17. I'm not suggesting that you
didn't see those things the first time; I'm suggesting they must be
utilized with great effort until they become almost automatic. For as
the Course says, "Miracles are habits, and should be involuntary."
(T3) In other words, unintentional. It takes a long time for that to
become such a deep part of you, but it is possible. I wish you God's
speed. Peace, Gary.
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Gary, Re: Sapient, Attitudes of Learning
Sapient, thanks for your essay on the attitudes of learning. I see no
need to respond to it in detail because I think it was comprehensive
and made many valid and interesting points. I've asked most of the
same questions you have along the way, and as with you, the Holy
Spirit has provided the answers and continues to. Peace, Gary.
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Gary