开云体育

ctrl + shift + ? for shortcuts
© 2025 开云体育
Date

Re: "What is forgiveness? " (2)

mstreet
 

开云体育

From: Sue-chan <suechantree@...>
>>Also, by holding grievances, we are also trying to be an "effect" of someone else, who we are projecting "cause" onto.? It's another way of trying to hold onto the concept of cause &effect in our minds.<<
?
Hi Sue-Chan:
?
Yes... I think that is what the whole ego thought system is about. Trying to reverse "cause and effect". By believing that something or someone out there, is responsible for my lack of peace, and then I get to being the innocent one. While in truth, I am merely repressing the original guilt, and projecting it out. And making sure that it can never be undone.
?
Only by looking with Jesus or the Holy Spirit at what is truly going on, without judgment, will I ever be able to let it go. And this is definately a process. A life times process of forgiving what has not be done. :-)
?
Peace Martha :-)
?


Re: "What is forgiveness? " (2)

Sue-chan
 

Hi: This is great....Also, by holding grievances, we are also trying to be an "effect" of someone else, who we are projecting "cause" onto.???It's another way of?trying to hold onto the concept of cause &effect in our minds.
?
sue-chan

mstreet wrote:
This is taken from Ken Wapnick's tape series on the Lessons of the Workbook. Volume VI, tape (1.)?? 1. What Is Forgiveness? part 2.
?
Paragraph 2
"An unforgiving thought is one which makes a judgment that it will not raise to doubt, although it is not true. The mind is closed, and will not be released."
?
Ken: When we hold a grievance against someone, we are absolutely, positively, certain sure that we are correct. And we will not doubt it. So that we could say, that what Jesus' whole point in this Course, is for us, to at least begin to doubt the accuracy, or the truth of the way we are perceiving, ourselves, each other, God, and himself as well.
?
That important line which I quoted earlier, (at other times) from chapter 24, is: "To learn this course requires willingness to question every value that you hold." He doesn' t say you have to dismiss every value that you hold. He simply says the little willingness of questioning every value is enough. We just have to doubt the fact that we are correct. And of course, once that occurs - as the paragraph continues, the mind is closed.
?
The mind is closed because I am not even aware that I have a mind. Which means the thought of sin, guilt and fear of being separated from God, are seemingly forever barred from my awareness. And its the unforgiving thought towards someone outside of me, that allows that to happen. As we will see in the next sentence.
?
"The thought" (the unforgiving thought that I am holding against you,) "protects projection, tightening its chains, so that distortions are more veiled and more obscure; less easily accessible to doubt, and further kept from reason. What can come between a fixed projection and the aim that it has chosen as its wanted goal?"
?
Ken: I have spoken very often of the ego's two tiered strategy, or the double shield of oblivion. That second shield which consists of our experiences in the world and the body, which ulitamately end up with our special relationships. And the grievances we hold against others, has one specific goal. And that goal is to protect the thought system in the mind, so that we never get to examine it, and make another choice.
?
So that is what he means - the unforgiving thought protects projection.
?
The unforgiveness aimed at you, is a projection against the ultimate thought of unforgiveness of your self. To say it another way - my anger at you, protects the guilt that the anger is a projection of.
?
The problem is the guilt that is in my mind which I don't want to look at. So what I do, is deny its reality in my mind. Project it out and now I see it in you. And I am so absolutely positive that my perceptions of you and my understanding of this situation is correct. And so that tightens the chains, so that my mind now is further imprisoned, so that I can never access it. And the distortions are more veiled and more obscured, and I become more and more convinced that the distorted way I am perceiving the world and everything in it, is correct.? And all that does, is, again, it drives me further and further from reason, which is the Holy Spirits Thought system.
?
And so once that happens - there is no reason. Nothing that could come between me and my anger at you. And the underlining goal which is to perpetuate the thought system of the ego. That is what that fourth sentence means.
?
"What can come between a fixed projection (which means, that I am so adament that I am right - the way that I am seeing you.) Nothing can come between that, and the real underlining source. The aim that is the ego's chosen goal. And then we will see in paragraph three, what that goal is.
?
"An unforgiving thought does many things. In frantic action it pursues its goal, twisting and overturning what it sees as interfering with its chosen path."
?
Ken: As we will see when we look at paragraph four the contrast, is, that forgiveness does nothing. The unforgiveness (the thought system of the ego) is what does everything.
?
And it is frantic because it always has to preserve its own individuality. So the image that your getting here, is of this kind of frantic, frenetic being or entity inside of us, (which is really ourselves) that is furiously trying to protect its own identity. And the way that it does that again, is to make the mind a fearful place. Which then leads us to project the content of the mind, which is guilt, on to the world and now we believe everything is happening all around us.
?
And then we are frantically trying to preserve our identity. We are trying to survive physically which takes a tremenous amount of work and then we are trying to survive psychologically, which takes an equal amount of work. In fact, we have to be even more ingenious in terms of how we are going to survive psychologically. That is all of our special relationships.
?
"Distortion is its purpose,"
?
Ken: So this is the wanted goal, that Jesus talked about in paragraph two. And its the distortion of reality. The distortion of who we are as God's Son. And it certainly is a distortion of Who God Himself is.
?
"Distortion is its purpose, and the means by which it would accomplish it as well."
?
Ken: So this is the ego. It first distorts reality. And then chooses the means by which this distortion will become protected. And the means, is to make up a world. Make up relationships that are seen outside of us. And then we spend the rest of our lives trying to deal with the problem of the body. The physical body and the psychological body.
?
"It sets about its furious attempts to smash reality,"
?
Ken: So that is another way of saying what the goal of the ego is. It distorts reality, and even better it smashes it. It seeks to obliterate the reality of God and His Son. And since "ideas leave not their source" the idea of a separated world, filled with bodies and special relationships, simply is a shadowy fragment of the original thought that is in our mind. I exist only at God's expense.
?
If I am going to establish myself as reality, I have to destroy, annihilate and obliterate the reality of God. An unforgiving thought is what holds that whole insane thought system in place.
?
"without concern for anything that would appear to pose a contradiction to its point of view."
?
Ken: This is why - Jesus teaches us the ego's goal is murder, and the goal of all specialness is murder. In that wonderfully graphic passage in chapter 24, he describes the goal of specialness is to lead your brother to the precipice and throw him over. And of course we are not far behind.
?
So anything that comes in the way of defending our thought system, we would seek to destroy. So, in sentence two, he says we would overthrow, what we see as interfering with our chosen path. Here we see that we have no concern with any one or anything. This is where all of our guilt then gets firmly lodged. Because deep down, we are all so guilty for how we use and manipulate everyone else. We don't see anybody who is there to remind us of how "one" we are, and how together we are. Rather, we see everyone as posing a real threat.
?
If I don't deal with you in some way, my happiness will be jeopardized. Therefore - I have to deal with you. And - if I had my way, I could deal with you by outwardly attacking you, that is what special hate is. Or, if I have to be more undercover about it, then I manipulate you through special love. But that is what all this is about.
?
It begins with the original special relationship. I need what God has. I have to kill Him so I get it. And since again, "ideas leave not their source" and that thought of killing God is the source, I then act that out over and over again in my projections here. Then I feel so guilty of what I am doing here, that I can't even look at what my body is doing here. And if I can't look at what my body is doing, how can I get back to what my mind is doing?
?
That is why you must realize that guilt over your actions here, is also a defense. It is still another part of the ego's strategy to keep you from getting back to, what your behavior is a shadow of.
?
So the purpose of the world, from Jesus point of view is to be a classroom that reflects back to us, what our ego's are doing in our mind and what we have chosen. If I feel guilty for what my body is doing, and my behavior is doing... and how I am manipulating, seducing and deceiving every one, there is no way that I could ask Jesus for help.
?
As I have explained other times - guilt is blinding. Guilt makes it impossible to see. And all I want to do when I am feeling guilty is choose my ego as my teacher. To help me undo the guilt ... which means undo the source of the guilt. Asking Jesus for help means, I am asking for help to undo the source of the guilt. Which means, I must first look at what I believe I am guilty of - here in the world. And realize that is a shadow of what I am secretly guitly about in my mind.
?
Only then, can I look at both - the outer and the inner, and realize that they are both part of the same illusion, and they will disappear. So as we go over paragraphs 4 and 5, we will see how this process works.
?
(to be continued.).............
?
?


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Disappearance_of_the_Universe-unsubscribe@...



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .


Do you Yahoo!?
- Now only $29.95 per month!


Ossie and Atlanta

 

I just wanted to thank you, Ossie, for taking the time out from the
workshop in Atlanta to share your experiences. I laughed at your
explanation as to why you lost my book at the airport. And I loved
hearing about the different discussions and some of the points that
Ken made. I'm very grateful to Billy for being enthusiastic
about "Disappearance" and I was very humbled that someone would ask
Ken about it. It's true that the book is getting a lot of attention.
There was another good review this week-end. If you want you can go
to to see it. These kinds of
things help tremendously to spread the word. Being the slacker that I
am, it will be a challenge for me to keep up with everything. But
then I'm sure it's all part of the Holy Spirit's plan for
forgiveness! Love and peace, Gary.


Re: Just Got Back; Enjoying the Messages

acimgirl
 

Thanks Gary. So far the e-mail thing is ok but if this board heats up it could
get intrusive. Thanks for the info on Ken. I've not met him but I do have
many of his tapes and several books. I have enjoyed his teaching style. I have
not been involved or even very interested in the controversy that seemed to be
brewing a few years ago but if he has given you his stamp of approval then he
is A-OK in my book!

I re-read the first chapter in your book today to prepare for the study group
on Thurs. night and I got even more out of it. ' Love the humor and the good
sense! This is going to be fun!
Blessings,
Suzanne

garyrrenard wrote:

Hiya. I just got back to Maine from a big cook-out and fireworks in
Massachusetts and I've read some but not all of the postings and
wanted to say thanks to everyone. This is fun. First, for Suzanne, I
wanted to mention that if you click on "Edit Your Membership" you can
try unchecking the box that says something like, "receive e-mails."
That should stop all the messages from going to your e-mail address
(hopefully). Click instead on "no e-mails". Also, I haven't read
everything yet, but I wanted to comment briefly on Ken and my book.
My understanding is that because of Ken's unique position, it's a
policy of his to not endorse other books. For that reason he does not
publicly express an opinion on "Disappearance". I will say that he's
always been very nice to me, and his generousity in allowing me to
use hundreds of quotations from the Course in the book is obvious.
I've met Ken twice, both times while attending workshops in Roscoe,
NY when the Foundation for A Course in Miracles was still there, and
which I write briefly about in the book. I found him to be a genius
in public and quite humorous in private. I've also exchanged several
letters with him to make sure I was properly crediting the Course,
and he was kind enough to personally go over my manuscript before the
Foundation gave me permission to use the quotes. When it comes to
Ken, suffice to say that I love him and I sincerely believe Arten and
Pursah's statement that he will be known in the future as the
Course's greatest teacher. Indeed, there are many of us who know that
already. Love and peace, Gary.


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Disappearance_of_the_Universe-unsubscribe@...



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to


Just Got Back; Enjoying the Messages

 

Hiya. I just got back to Maine from a big cook-out and fireworks in
Massachusetts and I've read some but not all of the postings and
wanted to say thanks to everyone. This is fun. First, for Suzanne, I
wanted to mention that if you click on "Edit Your Membership" you can
try unchecking the box that says something like, "receive e-mails."
That should stop all the messages from going to your e-mail address
(hopefully). Click instead on "no e-mails". Also, I haven't read
everything yet, but I wanted to comment briefly on Ken and my book.
My understanding is that because of Ken's unique position, it's a
policy of his to not endorse other books. For that reason he does not
publicly express an opinion on "Disappearance". I will say that he's
always been very nice to me, and his generousity in allowing me to
use hundreds of quotations from the Course in the book is obvious.
I've met Ken twice, both times while attending workshops in Roscoe,
NY when the Foundation for A Course in Miracles was still there, and
which I write briefly about in the book. I found him to be a genius
in public and quite humorous in private. I've also exchanged several
letters with him to make sure I was properly crediting the Course,
and he was kind enough to personally go over my manuscript before the
Foundation gave me permission to use the quotes. When it comes to
Ken, suffice to say that I love him and I sincerely believe Arten and
Pursah's statement that he will be known in the future as the
Course's greatest teacher. Indeed, there are many of us who know that
already. Love and peace, Gary.


Re: As this is an open forum....

Nels
 

Thank you all for the sharing and chuckles!

Love, Nels
--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "mstreet"
<mastreet@t...> wrote:

Which came first? The ping or the pong? :) <<
Neither. They both happened simultaneously when we forgot to laugh
at the tiny mad idea that we could be separate from God, and from
each other. <g>

And thanks again everybody, for the reminder.

Love and peace, Martha :-)


Re: As this is an open forum....

mstreet
 

开云体育

?
>>Which came first?? The ping or the pong? :) <<

Neither. They both happened simultaneously when we forgot to laugh at the tiny mad idea that we could be separate from God, and from each other.

And thanks again everybody, for the reminder.

Love and peace, Martha :-)


Re: As this is an open forum....

acimgirl
 

Which came first?? The ping or the pong? :)

Nels wrote:

Life - a big game of ping pong:-)

--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., acimgirl
wrote:
> Your healing is my healing! :) Thank YOU!
>
> mstreet wrote:
>
> >? Suzanne wrote: >>If they say something that pings me then I must
> > suspect that there is an element of truth there.? If I know I am
> > Holy what could possibly ping me?<< Thanks Suzanne: I think this
is
> > where I know that without Jesus or the Holy Spirit, I would be
> > forever lost, but thank goodness that with Them, I am reminded
(with
> > a little willingness) that the separation is not the truth.? And
> > mistakes call only for correction. Peace Martha
> >

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Save on Coral Calcium. Get Better Health and
Stronger Bones. Seen on TV


---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Disappearance_of_the_Universe-unsubscribe@...
?
?

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to


Re: As this is an open forum....

Nels
 

Life - a big game of ping pong:-)

--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., acimgirl
<acimgirl@e...> wrote:
Your healing is my healing! :) Thank YOU!

mstreet wrote:

Suzanne wrote: >>If they say something that pings me then I must
suspect that there is an element of truth there. If I know I am
Holy what could possibly ping me?<< Thanks Suzanne: I think this
is
where I know that without Jesus or the Holy Spirit, I would be
forever lost, but thank goodness that with Them, I am reminded
(with
a little willingness) that the separation is not the truth. And
mistakes call only for correction. Peace Martha


Re: As this is an open forum....

acimgirl
 

Your healing is my healing! :) Thank YOU!

mstreet wrote:

?Suzanne wrote:?>>If they say something that pings me then I must suspect that there is an element of truth there.? If I know I am Holy what could possibly ping me?<<?Thanks Suzanne:?I think this is where I know that without Jesus or the Holy Spirit, I would be forever lost, but thank goodness that with Them, I am reminded (with a little willingness) that the separation is not the truth.? And mistakes call only for correction.?Peace Martha
?



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Disappearance_of_the_Universe-unsubscribe@...
?
?

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .


Re: As this is an open forum....

mstreet
 

开云体育

?
>>I think this is where I know that without Jesus or the Holy Spirit, I would be forever lost, but thank goodness that with Them, I am reminded (with a little willingness) that the separation is not the truth.? And mistakes call only for correction. <<
?
And that correction for me, is only needed in my mind. :-)
?
Martha :-)


Re: As this is an open forum....

mstreet
 

开云体育

Suzanne wrote:
?
>>If they say something that pings me then I must suspect that there is an element of truth there.? If I know I am Holy what could possibly ping me?<<
?
Thanks Suzanne:
?
I think this is where I know that without Jesus or the Holy Spirit, I would be forever lost, but thank goodness that with Them, I am reminded (with a little willingness) that the separation is not the truth.? And mistakes call only for correction.
?
Peace Martha??
?


Re: As this is an open forum....

mstreet
 

开云体育

Thanks Jim for confirming what I seem to need to learn over and over again. A comforting thought for me also, comes from the Manual in which it says:
?
(M.26.4.)
"Do not despair, then, because of limitations. It is your function to escape
from them, but not to be without them. If you would be heard by those who
suffer, you must speak their language. If you would be savior, you must
understand what needs to be escaped. Salvation is not theoretical. Behold
the problem, ask for the answer, and then accept it when it comes. Nor will
its coming be long delayed. All the help you can accept will be provided,
and not one need you have will not be met. Let us not, then, be too
concerned with goals for which you are not ready. God takes you where you
are and welcomes you. What more could you desire, when this is all you
need?"
?
Peace Martha :-)
?
?
I just love the discussions and the Disappearance book. Normally I don't respond, (since it's all just for my own awakening)
but I feel moved to comment on the topic of folks reactions to us. I am thoroughly convinced that all things are lessons God would have me learn. This means that if I notice someone's "reaction" to my input, that there is a lesson for me. This knowing supercedes the issue of whether it's their stuff or my stuff.. It's all my stuff, since I meet only aspects of myself.
Disappearance is relentless is affirming that all the universe is inside the mind.. so trying to "deal" on an external level is only to deepen the dream.
But maybe that's just my stuff. Blessings to all. keep it up. Salvation of the world depends on me (and you, and everyone else I think is not my Self)
?
?
Jim Dunn
-----Original Message-----
From: Nels [mailto:arvent@...]
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 11:48 AM
To: Disappearance_of_the_Universe@...
Subject: [Disappearance_of_the_Universe] Re: As this is an open forum....




To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Disappearance_of_the_Universe-unsubscribe@...



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Disappearance_of_the_Universe-unsubscribe@...



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .


Re: As this is an open forum....

Nels
 

--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "Jim Dunn"
<jldunn8@c...> wrote:
Hi all,
I just love the discussions and the Disappearance book. Normally I
don't
respond, (since it's all just for my own awakening)
I guess a part of your own awakening, also includes helping others
awaken, since we are all one?

but I feel moved to comment on the topic of folks reactions to us.
I am
thoroughly convinced that all things are lessons God would have me
learn. This means that if I notice someone's "reaction" to my input,
that there is a lesson for me. This knowing supercedes the issue of
whether it's their stuff or my stuff.. It's all my stuff, since I
meet
only aspects of myself.
"The knowing supercedes the issue of whether it's their stuff or my
stuff" - Excellent observation! In a sense - your knowing is helping
me to know as well - especially when it is shared. In the end the
importance is in the knowing not who is doing what!

I hope you will consider being moved to respond often:-)

Cheers, Nels


Re: As this is an open forum....

mstreet
 

开云体育

Nels wrote:
?
>>Thank you for that clarification to my response. That certainly rings with truth once I understood it fully! <<
?
Thank you Nels. I must admit that I seem to have so many of the Course concepts down, but when it comes to actually applying them in my own life, it often amazes me how everything that I have read or heard, just goes out the window at times. Only when I sincerely ask for help, (which, I was doing) does clarification come at a meaningful level.
?
Peace Martha
?


Re: As this is an open forum....

acimgirl
 

The example we use a lot in our study groups is this:? If someone said I was pink with purple polka dots I would just laugh because I would know it is not true.? If they say something that pings me then I must suspect that there is an element of truth there.? If I know I am Holy what could possibly ping me?

Also a good rule of thumb is to ask myself what is this for when I speak or write on forum like this.? Am I using it for joining or for more separation.? Words can so often get misconstrued as well so keeping my motive of peace in focus is extremely important.
Blessings,
Suzanne

Jim Dunn wrote:

?Hi all,I just love the discussions and the Disappearance book. Normally I don't respond, (since it's all just for my own awakening)but I feel moved to comment on the topic of folks reactions to us. I am thoroughly convinced that all things are lessons God would have me learn. This means that if I notice someone's "reaction" to my input, that there is a lesson for me. This knowing supercedes the issue of whether it's their stuff or my stuff.. It's all my stuff, since I meet only aspects of myself.Disappearance is relentless is affirming that all the universe is inside the mind.. so trying to "deal" on an external level is only to deepen the dream.But maybe that's just my stuff. Blessings to all. keep it up. Salvation of the world depends on me (and you, and everyone else I think is not my Self)??Jim Dunn
-----Original Message-----
From: Nels [mailto:arvent@...]
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 11:48 AM
To: Disappearance_of_the_Universe@...
Subject: [Disappearance_of_the_Universe] Re: As this is an open forum....
?

?

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Disappearance_of_the_Universe-unsubscribe@...
?
?

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Disappearance_of_the_Universe-unsubscribe@...
?
?

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .


Re: As this is an open forum....

Jim Dunn
 

开云体育

Hi all,
I just love the discussions and the Disappearance book. Normally I don't respond, (since it's all just for my own awakening)
but I feel moved to comment on the topic of folks reactions to us. I am thoroughly convinced that?all things are?lessons God would have me learn. This means that if I notice someone's "reaction" to my input, that there is a lesson for me. This knowing supercedes the issue of whether it's their stuff or my stuff.. It's all my stuff, since I meet only aspects of myself.
Disappearance is relentless is affirming that all the universe is inside the mind.. so trying to "deal" on an external level is only to deepen the dream.
But maybe that's just my stuff. Blessings to all. keep it up. Salvation of the world depends on me (and you, and everyone else I think is not my Self)
?
?
Jim Dunn

-----Original Message-----
From: Nels [mailto:arvent@...]
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 11:48 AM
To: Disappearance_of_the_Universe@...
Subject: [Disappearance_of_the_Universe] Re: As this is an open forum....




To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Disappearance_of_the_Universe-unsubscribe@...



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .


Re: As this is an open forum....

Nels
 

--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "mstreet"
<mastreet@t...> wrote:

Hi Nels:
Forgiveness is never about the other guy, but only the misperceptions
I am harboring in my own mind. Someone else's response would not have
any effect on me, if on some level, I had not wanted them.

~ Martha :-)
Dear Martha,

Thank you for that clarification to my response. That certainly rings
with truth once I understood it fully!

Blessings, Nels


Re: Suzanne:

mstreet
 

开云体育

è Nice. BTW did you have far to go to get to
è Atlanta? My friend was saying that she really wants to
è go to another of Ken's workshops in California.
è

Hi again Ossie:
?
Now I have another question. How do you get those arrows up there? You know those red arrows? Oh, I just thought of something ... you probably have a more advanced system than me. But they really make things stand out. Did you have your own personal computer in Atlanta? I guess it is one of those lap tops. Nice...
?
Love and Peace Martha :-)


Re: As this is an open forum....

mstreet
 

开云体育

Gary wrote;
>>And as to you being 'blunt'....? You, blunt, Martha..?? Direct and to the point, maybe so I don't think I would consider that being "blunt".? "Not afraid to speak your mind", perhaps....<<
?
Well thank you Gary.

>>Now of course your son knows you far better than I, so his opinion may be more realistic than mine....?? ;^)<<
?
As for my son, he thinks that my taking anything like this seriously, is absolutely hysterical. Of course, he works in a prison and does workshops on anger management, so my little tiffs probably do seem minor to him. And the more I think about it, the sillier they seem to me too.
?
Love and hugs back at you.
?
Martha :-)