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Re: As this is an open forum....
Nels
--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "mstreet"
<mastreet@t...> wrote: Hi Nels:Forgiveness is never about the other guy, but only the misperceptions I am harboring in my own mind. Someone else's response would not have any effect on me, if on some level, I had not wanted them. ~ Martha :-)Dear Martha, Thank you for that clarification to my response. That certainly rings with truth once I understood it fully! Blessings, Nels |
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Re: Suzanne:
mstreet
开云体育è Nice. BTW
did you have far to go to get to
è Atlanta? My friend was saying that she really wants to è go to another of Ken's workshops in California. è Hi again Ossie: ?
Now I have another
question. How do you get those arrows up there? You know those red arrows? Oh, I
just thought of something ... you probably have a more advanced system than me.
But they really make things stand out. Did you have your own personal computer
in Atlanta? I guess it is one of those lap tops. Nice...
?
Love and Peace Martha
:-) |
|
Re: As this is an open forum....
mstreet
开云体育Gary wrote;
>>And as to you being 'blunt'....? You, blunt, Martha..?? Direct and to the point, maybe so I don't think I would consider that being "blunt".? "Not afraid to speak your mind", perhaps....<< ?
Well thank you Gary.
>>Now of course your son knows you far better than I, so his opinion may be more realistic than mine....?? ;^)<< ?
As for my son, he thinks that my taking anything like this seriously, is
absolutely hysterical. Of course, he works in a prison and does workshops on
anger management, so my little tiffs probably do seem minor to him. And the more
I think about it, the sillier they seem to me too.
?
Love and hugs back at you.
?
Martha :-) |
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Re: As this is an open forum....
mstreet
开云体育?
Ossie
wrote:
>>There are certain aspects of my personality that I do not believe will ever change ... but what I am watching is my intent/content.? The question I try to remember to ask myself is: Am I to the best of my knowledge coming from a place of Love or attack? << ?
Hi Ossie:
?
Thanks for the response.
Yes, I think as long as we are here in these bodies, we will still have
personality's (and even bodies) that will differ from others. And that in the
long run is (as Ken always says) to not let the differences make a difference.
To more and more see that everyone has a split mind, just as I have. And also
everyone shares my need to awaken.? And the only person I get to work on,
is me.
>>Keep in mind that we can still hold Jesus' hand and in a split second, attack? ... LOL<< ?
Thanks again for the
reminder. How quickly I forget. :-)
>>So I just learn to be a little patient and see if it is "safe" for me to be myself ... if not, I won't participate and just observe unless something really comes up.? At this time in my journey, I have enough to deal with (my own murderous ego) without worrying about other egos. Love your Brother, but trust not his ego.<< ?
Something for me to try and
remember, unless I choose to be a victim again. (LOL)
?
Love and peace Martha
:-) |
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Re: As this is an open forum....
> From: "mstreet" Hi Martha, As one who has happily read so *many* of your posts, both here and at the Course Talk forum, allow me to opine. As to "is it just their own projections?", I would suppose the answer to that part is, yes -- for everyone; all of our opinions as to the "actions or attitudes" of others are always reflections of the projections of our own internal content -- either the guilt and fear, or the love and joy. And as to you being 'blunt'.... ?You, blunt, Martha..? ?Direct and to the point, maybe. I have certainly seen you offer many a differing opinion to someone, which basically says you think they are completely wrong about something... ?but you invariably follow that up with a closing comment which essentially says, "This is of course only my own opinion on this matter, and I respect your right to hold a different view", in a loving and supportive way -- ?so I don't think I would consider that being "blunt". ?"Not afraid to speak your mind", perhaps.... Now of course your son knows you far better than I, so his opinion may be more realistic than mine.... ??;^) As to someone else's comments to you (on another forum) about 'transcribing' quoted material: if that were somehow a waste of time, then there would be no point in Ken Wapnick or anybody else *ever* quoting or passing anything along -- we all would simply "only" deal with the original Course. (Which should, of course, always remain our primary focus). ?But still, quoting and transcribing and talking about this material is one of the ways we learn, here in ego-land, and if that were not beneficial, then Pursah and Arten and Gary and Ken and you and I would all be *wasting* our time, rather than (hopefully) using it for its "proper" purpose. Blunt or otherwise, I always look forward to hearing what you have to say! Love & Hugs, Gene |
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Re: As this is an open forum....
mstreet
开云体育?Nels wrote:
>>I was listening to a radio interview yesterday and the person
being
interviewed voiced the feeling that each person we meet -? is someone we have "Conjured up" in order to learn something. I found this to be a very interesting idea and wondered what ACIM has to say along these lines?<< ?
Hi Nels:
?
Yes, the Course does say there are no accidental meetings, in the
Manual. And I thank you for your other response. Forgiveness is never about the
other guy, but only the misperceptions I am harboring in my own mind. Someone
else's response would not have any effect on me, if on some level, I had not
wanted them.
?
I see now that he was the perfect scapegoat, for me, for avoiding
looking at what was going on in myself with the Holy Spirit. And it really had
nothing to do with his labeling me. Or me labeling myself, or him. But as a way
of avoiding looking with with the Holy Spirit at what was going on with me. And
maybe I acted as the perfect scapegoat for him as well.
?
Thanks for the response, that triggered other thoughts
in myself. :-)
?
~ Martha :-)
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
? |
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Re: As this is an open forum....
Nels
Hi All
As I am a newbie to the course, I also have a question for the class:- ) I was listening to a radio interview yesterday and the person being interviewed voiced the feeling that each person we meet - is someone we have "Conjured up" in order to learn something. I found this to be a very interesting idea and wondered what ACIM has to say along these lines? This statement was not made by some "new age guru, but actually by the lead singer of a very popular music group called "The Tragically Hip":-) Hugs, Nels --- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "mstreet" <mastreet@t...> wrote: As this is an open forum, I have a question that has been on mymind? |
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Re: As this is an open forum....
Nels
Hi Martha,
This is just an observation based on my own experience, but any label that is applied to another, seems to often be an area of sensitiviy being expressed by the labeler and has nothing to do with the person who has been labeled. Of course anything like that is a form of attack and is obviously an egoic reaction. It is however, a wonderful opportunity to practice foregiveness. If we respond in any other fashion it will quickly be from our own ego. Anyway, what are suggesting about character *flaws*? Are there such things really?:-) Blessings, Nels --- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "mstreet" <mastreet@t...> wrote: As this is an open forum, I have a question that has been on mymind? On another forum I was accused of being argumentative and defensive, and it was portrayed to me, as though this was some sort of consistent character flaw on my part. |
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As this is an open forum....
mstreet
开云体育As this is an open forum, I have a question that has
been on my mind? On another forum I was accused of being argumentative and
defensive, and it was portrayed to me, as though this was some sort of
consistent character flaw on my part.
?
At the time, I didn't really feel like dealing with it,
so I just unsubscribed. Now that I am feeling better however, I checked with my
family, as they are the most honest with me, of anyone that I can think of.
?
Yesterday I read the offending post of mine to my one son, and he started
laughing, and said: "Well, you know mom, you can be quite blunt at times,
as your post clearly shows, but the argumenativeness, I just don't
see."
?
This has me wondering just how we can tell if how
another is telling us of how we are coming? across, is the way we are, or
is it just their own projections that they don't want to look
at??
?
Even if no one answers this, it helps me to sort of put
it out there, and not try to bottle it up, inside myself.
?
Thanks Martha |
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Re: Suzanne:
Hello mastreet@...,
In reference to your comment: è Hi again Ossie: Now I have another question. How do è you get those arrows up there? You know those red è arrows? Oh, I just thought of something ... you è probably have a more advanced system than me. But è they really make things stand out. Did you have your è own personal computer in Atlanta? I guess it is one of è those lap tops. Nice...? Love and Peace Martha :-) It is an AOL feature.? I highlight the text I want to comment on and that is how it shows up. Yes I have a laptop here .. I don't anywhere without it .... LOL The only challenge has been relying on dial up instead of the high speed I am used to.?? Since the connection has been consistent and if I am signed on under this name it is easier to respond to emails on AOL than on yahoo.? Those yahoo ads are annoying ... LOL |
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Re: Suzanne:
Hello mastreet@...,
In reference to your comment: è Nice. BTW did you have far to go to get to è Atlanta? My friend was saying that she really wants to è go to another of Ken's workshops in California. è 2 hour plane ride The next stop is California ... Colorado is a bit closer? LOL ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Disappearance_of_the_Universe] Re: Suzanne: Date: 7/5/2003 10:15:18 PM Central Daylight Time From: mastreet@... Reply-to: Disappearance_of_the_Universe@... To: Disappearance_of_the_Universe@... Sent from the Internet (Details) Ossie wrote: >>Academy:? Journey from self to SELF Workshop: Living "A Course in Miracles"<< Hi Ossie: I have a video called "Living a Course in Miracles" and I found that to be very powerful too, I guess, there is no way of knowing whether they are the same? Although, I have heard Ken laughing say: that when he gave a workshop on Psychotherapy (I believe it was) and someone said, that he was hoping to get something different, but it just sounded like the regular Course. And Ken even said, he made this same comment to Helen too, after it was dictated. >>Then out of no where this huge tide just appeared and knocked me out for a loop.<< Sounds as though something really hit home with you.?? >>It is going to take time to process all that happened this week ... being able to post on here has been a big help.<< It helps us too, hearing about it. >>During a question and answer session, someone asked Ken about Gary's book? .. I had my head down at the time (I was waking up from a nap).? But Gary's books is getting a lot of attention.? Billy talks about the book every chance he gets :-)<< I hope Gary's listening!!! Actually my Course friend that lives near by, keeps hinting that she wants borrow my book of the Disappearance of the Universe. I told her today that I want to keep mine around in case someone makes references to it. I suggested that if she can't afford it at this time, to order one at the library. The libraries around here are pretty good at getting books in, and I think it would be an asset to have one here in Vancouver. >>And I also have a feeling more folks will be showing up on this listserv and/or Course_Talk provided the yahoo experience doesn't scare them away.<< Nice. BTW did you have far to go to get to Atlanta? My friend was saying that she really wants to go to another of Ken's workshops in California. Peace Martha Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Disappearance_of_the_Universe-unsubscribe@... Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the . |
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Re: Suzanne:
Hello mastreet@...,
In reference to your comment: è There are so many things that I have questions on to, è but I try to keep an open mind, and realize that I really è don't know what things mean. Or why certain things è happen as they do.? I just know that for me, Gary's è book resonated with my own understanding of the è Course. Maybe Ossie will answer more later, as I è believe today is another full day for her. It does sound è as if it has been a very helpful session for her. The impression I got was that Ken did not give an opinion.? He was asked to look over the book to be sure it was in alignment with the Course ... and other than the fact that Ken met with Gary on a few occasions, he left it at that. One of the things I understood at the workshops ... is that there is no Gary, Ken, you, me the Course, we are all symbols of a thought system ... and as the decision maker we can side with the Right Mind or the ego mind. IMHO, Gary as a symbol was in his Right Mind when this information came through and it came through in a way that was consistent with the personality of Gary, very much in the same way that the Course came through Helen and reflected her personality. The beauty of Gary's book is that is points us to the Course ... it was consistent in? that it repeatedly stated that the real work is in the study and application of the Course.? I think that is why I lost Gary's book at the airport on my way to Atlanta.? LOL And you can tell when reading the Course, espcially for those who believe in the Course's objective of undoing the ego thought system that this was the goal in Gary's book also. Personally I am very glad that Joe mentioned the book and that Ken did his part, because it was exactly what I needed to read ... But I hope the day will come that I will not need the approval/ok of other's, that I will be able to trust my relationship with the Holy Spirt/Jesus and let Love guide me.?? For folks like Ken and Joe? and others may not always be here in form. :::::sighing::::: One day? :-) Peace |
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Re: As this is an open forum....
Hello mastreet@...,
In reference to your comment: è This has me wondering just how we can tell if how è another is telling us of how we are coming? across, is è the way we are, or is it just their own projections that è they don't want to look at?? Even if no one answers è this, it helps me to sort of put it out there, and not try è to bottle it up, inside myself. Same thing has happened to me Martha, more than once :-) There was an exercise that Ken had us do here during the week (which was to find the earliest memory where we acted out a particular victimization script ... during the workshop mine was the script of abandonment) ... and I will take it a step further.? As long as I can remember I have always been assertive (you know spoke the first thing that came to my mind) ... and have been slapped into submission so many times.? When I grew up and finally got out of the jehovah's witnesses, it took me a while to find my voice again ... LOL? Now that I am feeling more confident about me, the same script that I had as a child is coming back.? I have learned that I have a way with words ... and if a person is very sensitive? and don't know how to handle it ... especially if they do not know me ... I can appear to be argumentative/confrontational ... etc.? :-) I have met many folks online ... offline and they thought they were going to meet a grumpy older frustrated woman ... and was pleasantly surprised to realized the image they had in mind was completely opposite ... (which is why I sometimes submit a pic ). There are certain aspects of my personality that I do not believe will ever change ... but what I am watching is my intent/content.? The question I try to remember to ask myself is: Am I to the best of my knowledge coming from a place of Love or attack? Keep in mind that we can still hold Jesus' hand and in a split second, attack? ... LOL So I just learn to be a little patient and see if it is "safe" for me to be myself ... if not, I won't participate and just observe unless something really comes up.? At this time in my journey, I have enough to deal with (my own murderous ego) without worrying about other egos. Love your Brother, but trust not his ego. Peace P.S.? But to answer your question Martha ... with the Course in hand, you have always been upfront and honest with me ... and even if I am not ready to hear it ...? I have never doubted that you were coming from a place of Love. Ossie |
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Re: Suzanne:
acimgirl
Thanks Martha...D. U. has certainly been a huge help to me and everyone
I know who has read it.? I'm glad Ken let it through.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Blessings, Suzanne ? mstreet wrote: ?Suzanne wrote:>>Hey.... This is showing up on my home e-mail so I hope you don't mind if I ask |
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Re: Suzanne:
mstreet
开云体育Suzanne wrote:
>>Hey.... This is showing up on my home e-mail so I hope
you don't mind if I ask
a question.<< ?
Hi Suzanne:
?
From what I understand, this is an open forum, so that
any one can jump in, and ask questions or make remarks to any one, or even bring
up their own experiences or understanding..
?
>>"What does Ken think of Gary's book?<<
?
I haven't a clue. But I do know from reading
on FACIM question and answer site, here:?
? I have
read where they don't make it a policy to comment on other people's books. At
least this was in response to someone who asked about book "The Power of
Now." Although that book, was in my estimation quite different than the
Course. In that it's focus has nothing to do with forgiveness as the Course
teaches it. Or even on the basic metaphysics that the Course has.
?
>>Ken must be pretty cool to let it go to press...<<
?
Personally I feel that Ken is quite liberal with other people using the
Course, as long as they don't use it, as a basis of forming it into some kind of
cult, or completely distorting it's teachings.
?
>>or did he get a visit from two TOGS himself?<<
?
I somehow doubt this, as he mentions in "Absence
from Felicity" he did feel a strong personal relationship with a presence
in his mind, even before the Course, but only after reading and studying the
Course did he realize that it was the same person (Jesus) that spoke in the
pages of the Course.
?
There are so many things that I have questions on to, but I try to keep an
open mind, and realize that I really don't know what things mean. Or why certain
things happen as they do.
?
I just know that for me, Gary's book resonated with my own understanding of
the Course.
?
Maybe Ossie will answer more later, as I believe today
is another full day for her. It does sound as if it has been a very helpful
session for her.
?
Peace Martha :-)
? |
|
Re: Suzanne:
mstreet
开云体育Ossie wrote:
>>Academy:? Journey from self to SELF ? Workshop: Living "A Course in Miracles"<< ?
Hi Ossie:
?
I have a video called "Living a Course in Miracles" and I
found that to be very powerful too, I guess, there is no way of knowing whether
they are the same? Although, I have heard Ken laughing say: that when he gave a
workshop on Psychotherapy (I believe it was) and someone said, that he was
hoping to get something different, but it just sounded like the regular Course.
And Ken even said, he made this same comment to Helen too, after it was
dictated.
>>Then out of no where this huge tide just appeared and knocked me out for a loop.<< ?
Sounds as though something really hit home with you.??
>>It is going to take time to process all that happened this week ... being able to post on here has been a big help.<< ?
It helps us too, hearing about it.
>>During a question and answer session, someone asked Ken about Gary's book? .. I had my head down at the time (I was waking up from a nap).? But Gary's books is getting a lot of attention.? Billy talks about the book every chance he gets :-)<< ?
I hope Gary's listening!!! Actually my Course friend that lives near
by, keeps hinting that she wants borrow my book of the Disappearance of the
Universe. I told her today that I want to keep mine around in case someone makes
references to it. I suggested that if she can't afford it at this time, to order
one at the library. The libraries around here are pretty good at getting books
in, and I think it would be an asset to have one here in Vancouver.
?
>>And I also have a feeling more folks will be showing up on this
listserv and/or Course_Talk provided the yahoo experience doesn't scare them away.<< Nice. BTW did you have far to go to get to Atlanta? My friend was saying that she really wants to go to another of Ken's workshops in California. ?
Peace Martha |
|
Re: Suzanne:
acimgirl
Hey.... This is showing up on my home e-mail so I hope you don't mind if I ask
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
a question. What does Ken think of Gary's book? He obviously gave it his stamp of approval. It is certainly complimentary in what it says about his legacy but it is also pretty far out in some of the stuff it says. Ken must be pretty cool to let it go to press... or did he get a visit from two TOGS himself? Blessings Suzanne ynottakeall wrote: --- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "mstreet" |
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Re: Suzanne:
ynottakeall
--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "mstreet"
<mastreet@t...> wrote: Ossie wrote;as to what the title of the Workshops were?What a large crowd he is having in Atlanta, and she was curious Academy: Journey from self to SELF Workshop: Living "A Course in Miracles" There will be CDs of both the Academy Class and Workshop that should be available in a couple of weeks. It really seems as though, you are getting a lot out of all that heis saying. And I am finding that more and more so with myself, listening to his tapes. I can still seem to get it one minute, and then I am back to holding on to grievances the next. But at least I am being more gentle with myself (sometimes) when I find myself judging like crazy. I mean, what else would my ego or any one else's ego do??? So as long as we can look at it with Jesus or the Holy Spirit, and then release it, I am sure we will want that more and more. I am going to use a boat analogy. The ride was bumpy at times, but I was able to hang in there ... saying "yeah, yeah, yeah" nodding my head "Yes, Yes, Yes" I guess I thought if I made it through the academy class, the workshop would be smooth sailing ... Ken would just repeat ... to reinforce what was said earlier in the week. Then out of no where this huge tide just appeared and knocked me out for a loop. For a moment I did not know what hit me .. but I quickly remembered what to do (I used the analogy of getting off the stage and joining with Jesus and watched myself). I did not want to fall apart completely for I was determined to finish what I set out to do ... do what I needed to do to not miss a session because I could always fall apart later, and I have a strange feeling that I was not alone in this feeling. ;-) But it was time for this, these attack thoughts was taking its toll on me ... and it is time to choose again. It is going to take time to process all that happened this week ... being able to post on here has been a big help. During a question and answer session, someone asked Ken about Gary's book .. I had my head down at the time (I was waking up from a nap). But Gary's books is getting a lot of attention. Billy talks about the book every chance he gets :-) And I also have a feeling more folks will be showing up on this listserv and/or Course_Talk provided the yahoo experience doesn't scare them away. Until next time Peace Ossie |
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"What is forgiveness" (3)
mstreet
开云体育This is taken from Ken Wapnick's tape series on the
Lessons of the Workbook. Volume VI, tape (1.)?? 1. What Is Forgiveness? part 3. Paragraph 4.
?
(W-pII.1.4&5.)
"Forgiveness, on the other hand, is
still,"
?
Ken: And we will see, by the way in the lessons to
come, how often Jesus talks about our being still. We have seen it other times
and we will see it here too. And actually all of this is really coming from that
famous beginning of Psalm 46. "Be still and know that I am God." And
that line is referred to very often through out the Course. To be still, means
that I silence the raucous shrieking of the ego.
?
"Forgiveness, on the other hand, is still, and
quietly does nothing."
?
Ken: It is the ego that tries to do. Doing was not something that was God's
creation, or the Holy Spirit's correction. Doing, is what the ego did. I
destroyed God - which is heavy doing. And then I have to do like crazy to
protect myself from being destroyed back. So - forgiveness doesn't do anything.
Jesus doesn't do anything. The Holy Spirit doesn't do anything. The right mind
doesn't do anything. All of these - merely look. And they look at falsity and
realize this is nothing but an idle dream, that has had no effect.
?
"It offends no aspect of reality, nor seeks to
twist it to appearances it likes."
?
Ken: This - obviously is unlike what unforgiveness
does.
?
"It merely looks, and waits, and judges
not."
?
Ken: That is probably a line that I quote more frequently than any other.
That is what forgiveness does. It merely looks at the ego thought system. It
waits patiently for us to change our minds. And above all it doesn't judge.
?
It doesn't judge the ego's of others. It doesn't judge the ego of myself.
It simply looks at it and says: "isn't that a silly thought." Isn't
this a silly behavior that comes from a silly thought. It is not evil. It is not
sinful. It is not wicked. It is simply silly. Because it will
?
" He who would not forgive must judge, for he must
justify his failure to forgive."
?
Ken: So - I have not forgiven myself in my mind. Which is my guilt. And I
project that out, and now I protect that lack of forgiveness in myself by not
letting anyone off the hook.
?
So, I see the sin in you, and then rather than undo
them in myself, I try to undo them in you - by punishing you for it. Which means
- I keep you as the sinner. And I am not really doing anything. But deep down, I
am reinforcing the sin in myself. So the judgment in this case would be a
synonym, with an unforgiving thought. That is why we have such a tremendous need
to judge and criticize and find fault.
?
''But he who would forgive himself must learn to
welcome truth exactly as it is."
?
Ken: All that we have to do, is accept forgiveness that is already held for
us in our right minds by the Holy Spirit.
?
Right near the end of the workbook is a wonderful line: "we are
concerned only with giving welcome to the truth." And the way we give
welcome to the truth, is to finally turn our backs on the untruth. To say, the
illusion is not what I want, what I want is the truth.
"Do nothing, then, and let forgiveness show you what to do, through Him Who is your Guide, your Savior and Protector, strong in hope, and certain of your ultimate success." ?
Ken: This is like the section in chapter 18: "I need do nothing."
This doesn't mean that behaviorally that you don't do anything. He is making it
very clear. You let the Holy Spirit guide you in terms of what you do.
?
And it is not that He specifically tells you what you should do, even
though that maybe your experience. It's His love would automatically reflect
itself through you and your body would simply do what the content of that love
is saying.
?
"He has forgiven you already, for such is His
function, given Him by God."
?
Ken: In other words, the Atonement Principle is already present in us.
?
"Now must you share His function, and forgive whom
He has saved, whose sinlessness He sees, and whom He honors as the Son of
God."
?
Ken: So, just as we have been forgiven, by the Holy
Spirit for what we have not done, we are asked to share that with others. To
share that others, re-enforces that truth within ourselves.
?
The end.
?
I hope you got as much out of it, as I did.
:-)
?
Peace Martha :-) |
|
Re: Suzanne:
mstreet
开云体育Ossie
wrote;
>>Today was a rough day ... took all week but I finally broke down ... we discussed lesson 23 about looking at attack thoughts ... and I just filled in the blanks ... and then it hit me hard all the objects of hatred I have and the next question am I willing to let them go.Ken mentioned something about seeing a "contrast" that we really won't give things up until we see the cost.? I got a glimpse of the cost today ... price is much too high.<< Hi Ossie, and thanks for sharing. I will have to go back and read that lesson over again, with Ken's commentaries. Actually a friend of mine, that I went to his Seattle workshop with, and I were talking today and I mentioned what a large crowd he is having in Atlanta, and she was curious as to what the title of the Workshops were? ?
It really seems as though,
you are getting a lot out of all that he is saying. And I am finding that more
and more so with myself, listening to his tapes. I can still seem to get it
one minute, and then I am back to holding on to grievances the next. But at
least I am being more gentle with myself (sometimes) when I find myself judging
like crazy. I mean, what else would my ego or any one else's ego do??? So as
long as we can look at it with Jesus or the Holy Spirit, and then release it, I am sure we will want
that more and more.
?
Peace Martha
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