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Re: Reincarnation Instant Breakfast

loveholdsnogrievances
 

Thanks Kevin

Yeah, I mean reincarnation can be interesting and entertaining --
and the idea that we lived before and never really died but just
continued in a different body and dream can give me a sense of
eternity but other than that I just don't want to spend to much
energy on it unless it comes up for review in helpin me wake up.
Whitney

--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "bluewave2404"
<kevin7575@c...> wrote:
Hi,

Joe and Whitney, you made some great points. Thank you. Whitney,
some thoughts came to my mind while reading your post.

"A memory is just as real an image as any other image. They're
all
the same. Forgive them and be free." -Pursah 245

Thus it is just as important to forgive memories/experiences of
reincarnation as it is to forgive what we currently perceive.
Whitney, you do make a great point that we do not need to seek
these
memories/experiences of reincarnation, but we do not need to avoid
them either. I don't think Gary seeks knowing about his
reincarnations as if they are something special, and I think it's
pretty cool when he shares his experience of them as they
naturally
seem to come to him.

Karma is something that we agree to before we are born, and I
think
you are correct when you write that it is something we want to
move
beyond. Without dualism there is no karma or suffering, and who
needs dualism? ..only the ego.

As for doing good deeds in the world:

"Kindness created me kind.
Helpfulness created me helpful."
Lesson 67

It depends upon our motivation. If we think that we should
perform
good deeds to atone for our sins, then we are using guilt as our
motivation. However, if we do good deeds because we feel guided
and
strengthened when we do, then I think it is helpful for speeding
up
our journey-without-distance back to Heaven.

Kevin
Re: forgiveness

loveholdsnogrievances
 

I'm thinking that forgiveness is not about condoning hurtful
behavior but -- I mean criminals need to go to jail to keep from
hurting anyone else -- I think it's a matter of not condemning that
person in your mind -- disapproving of negative behavior is needed --
discrimination is needed -- but condemnation of the person in our
minds is what hurts us.
--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., WHOATLEEDS
<whoatleeds@y...> wrote:
First off a person you see as needing forgiveness because they
have wronged you or another IS your problem. YOU have the problem,
they are innocent of all charges. Of course if they have killed,
raped, or committed some other criminal act they still have to be
punished by the law. Example: if you are raped, call the police, and
have the perp arrested, and put away, do not be shy or afraid of
criminals. After they have been safely put behind bars or executed
then forgive them at your leisure. The other kind of forgiveness is
much harder, when you actually have to continue to exist with people
that are rude, crude and tatooted. Fortunately this is easy. All you
have to do is wish them well, for instance, my rich well to do
sisters who poor mouth constantly about what they don't have and
constantly seek renumeration for every grain of salt and would take
the coins off a dead man's eyes I have wished for them to become
fabulously wealthy, and they have, they keep getting richer and
richer, the more I pray the richer they become. They haven't
changed a sou but they are unbelievably wealthy. In turn, by my
praying for them to do well, I have done well also, funny how that
works in the realm of spirit. I still can't stand to be around them
but I am completely clear of any guilt.

Merovan








llusion@y...> wrote:
I am struggling with the concept of forgiveness.
Example:
A friend is in conflict with her husband and because she is away
she
called me to be there for their son. I get upset because her
husband
is an ass (see?). I KNOW that it is in my face for a reason, and
having done a lot of personal, spiritual growth over the years I
think
I get a lot of stuff. I understand that this is a projection of
mine.
I get that it is what it is, and I get that in the big picture it
is a
projection of mine.
What I don't get is how to do the forgiveness.
What I need is a script to follow, so I can get in the habit of
seeing
where forgiveness is used and HOW.

Another issue, several years old that I had cleaned up has come
back to
flit around in my brain. I figure it is because of the CIM and DU
that
I have been reading. Cleaning out the corners. The forgiveness I
have
done on this issue has not been effective.

Any suggestions?

Kathleen




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Forgiveness

loveholdsnogrievances
 

I am getting to the point now, where I just forgive everything - not
just situations, but everything -- even though I am sitting here
peacefully with no worries or drama in my life to forgive at this
time -- now I am forgiving what my bodies eyes see right in front of
me -- even forgiving this computer I am seeing in front of me that I
am typing on. I go out to lunch and forgive what I see before me as I
walk down the street, the people, the cars, the lights, the buildings,
the sky, the fire hydrant, etc, etc. It's just not true what I see.


"Truth is true, nothing else is real, nothing else exists, and
everything besides it, is not there."

Whitney
Re: Reincarnation Instant Breakfast

loveholdsnogrievances
 

We forgot this world was an illusion - and the world itself is a
place of duality - right and wrong, good and bad, darkness and
light, night and day - birth and death, innocent and guilty, youth
and age - sickness and health, rich and poor, large and small,
Beautiful and ugly, tall and short, fat and thin, new and old, and
and on - where there is no perception of duality - only light, there
is no karma.
Hope that helps.
Whitney

--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "Tamar Raine"
<tamarmag@e...> wrote:
here's a question; why would we agree to a karmic experience if
this physical world is an illusion???
Oakland Mayor's Commission on People with disabilities
~Tamar Mag Raine~
tamarmag@e...
IM: tamarmag48


----- Original Message -----
From: bluewave2404
To: Disappearance_of_the_Universe@...
Sent: 5/12/2005 3:10:45 PM
Subject: [Disappearance_of_the_Universe] Re: Reincarnation Instant
Breakfast

Karma is something that we agree to before we are born, and I
think
you are correct when you write that it is something we want to
move
beyond. Without dualism there is no karma or suffering, and who
needs dualism? ..only the ego.

As for doing good deeds in the world:

"Kindness created me kind.
Helpfulness created me helpful."
Lesson 67

It depends upon our motivation. If we think that we should
perform
good deeds to atone for our sins, then we are using guilt as our
motivation. However, if we do good deeds because we feel guided
and
strengthened when we do, then I think it is helpful for speeding
up
our journey-without-distance back to Heaven.

Kevin







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Re: Thankful!

Will Surf For You
 

I find this disheartening also. I've been involved in spiritual related groups before in my life, and there is always a tendency to use the dogma to support the ego's sense of power and discipline. But that same dogma is used to teach and lovingly instruct. The problem is to discern what is going on. So perhaps one answer is to just "resist not evil" (in terms of anything that bothers you here), and just let it slide. I responded to one post by Lyn because I found it confusing and a bit annoying, But as a newbie I later felt that perhaps my best course is to just lurk and not get into the maelstrom.

I have a friend who is a UNITY Church minister. Now it reached a point with him where he could not "leave behind" his ministerial role and be a pal. Every dang word I said to him, even in jest, had to be run by him (his ego?) through his Unity Dogma filter, and I would receive countless lectures and reprimands. Forgive me my humanness, but after awhile, I just did not want to communicate with him any more because I just could not handle "Unity Speak" all the time. My ego was not ready to "resist not evil" day after day.

Perhaps we each just have to determine where we are at, and what we can handle. One thing that came up with me yesterday in my Quiet Time by the Holy Ghost was (paraprhased) "I do not expect you to forgive yourself and the entire world in 24 hours. Let go of letting go, or it will become yet another tool of the ego to increase your guilt. Don't be guilty about feeling guilty. We will work it out over time".

Let's perhaps be gentle with each other and resist the temptation to do ACIM Speak with a great authoritative style, thereby covertly invoking another person's ego. Think about the TRUE purpose for your post, and what it is likely to invoke in the recipient.

And now, as a newbie, I shall remain silent.

Will

From: "misstafyu" <seevegan@...>
Reply-To: Disappearance_of_the_Universe@...
To: Disappearance_of_the_Universe@...
Subject: [Disappearance_of_the_Universe] Re: Thankful!
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 15:52:36 -0000


While I agree that Ed's post was thought provoking I feel my post
did not warrant a lecture in correction. There is not one of us here
who is perfect and the support in knowing that this group is here
and we can find comfort in knowing we are not alone in our journey
is huge for some of us. I was merely expressing my gratitude. While
I ask Jesus for guidance as often as I can I do not express this
outwardly anywhere but here. I run my business and direct my team
with the principles in mind and empower each one of my team members
as brothers. I also try to parent the same way and enlighten my
children in the principles as much as possible. They have both had
books since they were each 12 years of age and now each will have a
copy of DU.

All this to say that I strongly believe we should be allowed to
express our feelings of gratitude wherever we are on the path
without a lecture about how or why we are not being perfect ACIM
students here. That is not the point of DU and should not be
happening here in my "humble onion"!


--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., WHOATLEEDS
<whoatleeds@y...> wrote:
Dude, pretty profound, I was about to get in your grill for some
other stuff You wrote but this is chillin bro. You are one ACIM, DU
aware MFER. SLAP ME WITH YOUR GENTLE RULER!

Merovan
CONSERVATIVE ACIM GUY





<ed.ostack@a...> wrote:
Christy you write:

Most people I know would be convinced that I have completely
lost it if they knew how I actually perceive my existence!

The world has lost it long time ago, Christy...and it has
compelled
you and everyone else to march in the beat of its error.
Unfortunately the error is so profound that it's suggestions come
at
every corner of opportunity from the mass acceptance of body
reality.
Jesus even had a tough time with his disciples getting them to
understand it. Only reading beyond the 4 traditional gospels
reveals
this. Only when you are willing to stand where the whole world
stands against you will you understand what the value of truth is.
It has no meaning in numbers and acceptability, thats only for the
deluded who wish to remain comfortable with conformity.

..."so at least while I sleep in the illusion I do not feel so
alone!"

We are convinced that we NEED outer confirmation to make things
real
or at least meaningful and significant because we have minimalized
our very own internal mechanism which verifies and makes our own
choices valuable on their own without outer approval. When we seek
the outer to confirm what is within, it is because nothing
remains
within of any certainty. We have built on "sand". Thats why the
ground moves all the time. The Eternal is what we truly are and
until Eternal life is our reality without a shadow of a doubt, we
will feel alone and at the mercy of doctrines, church authorities,
and social forces which urge us for the sake of "their reality" to
come to their level. It is not a matter of "FAITH"...because what
is
real needs no belief to make it more real. WHen we cease to be
blown
back and forth over our beliefs and our certainty comes home to
us,
we will no longer feel any aloneness. AS long as we seek the outer
for our confirmation, we have not found within what is meant to
sustain us.
Ed





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Re: Reincarnation Instant Breakfast (karma)

paulcaribou
 


The Origins of the word karma seem to be from the Buddhist
tradition. It is
used as what I would call a carrot and stick approach to leading a
person to
enlightenment. Since the basic reason given for cultivating a
heart of
compassion understanding and oneness with all life is to build up
good Karma
so a better life can be lived in subsequent lifetimes. The truth
is though
that by following this wisdom the ultimate result is
enlightenment.

I think that this is what most people think the word means. A sort
of Groundhog Day of subsequent re-incarnations until a particular
lesson is learned and you move to the next step.


There is a level at which this interpreation of the word is correct.



I have a saying hanging above my desk which is attributed to the
Buddha
(circa 80 B.C.) "When a man's mind becomes pure, his surroundings
will also
become pure." I find this a beautiful statement of karmic
principals. I also
see these principals related in J's statement "As a man thinketh
in his
heart, so is he." I Also see it in the statement "Judge not lest
you be
judged with the same measure". I also see it in the statements of
A&P when
they revealed that spiritual development is carried forward from
lifetime to
lifetime until liberation is achieved.

I think in DU it was pointed out another interpretation is that it
means "what you so you shall reap"


That is if you do bad shit to people then you will have an
experience where someone does bad stuff to you. Or if you hurt
someone in this lifetime you get to come back and play the role of
the character you hurt. On the other hand if you behave with
kindness and compassion you get to avoid unpleasant reincarnations
and have easier ones.


There is also a level at which this interpration of the word is true.





From the perspective of ACIM we know that as we cultivate our link
to true
mind thru communication with the HS and J we become more in tune
with
reality and less affected by ego projections. This leads a peace
and calm
which the ego can not affect. Even if the body is killed as J
demonstrated
so long ago and A&P explained in DU.


ACIM teaches that there is nothing "out there". What you are
experiencing is a dream. If it seems you go from "lifetime"
to "lifetime" this is still in the dream.


There is no HERE. Nothing is happening. There are no bad characters
doing anything bad to you. You are spirit.


The Course is the way out. (or the way "home")
Re: forgiveness

Will Surf For You
 

Lynn,

Perhaps you and others can say more about this, because I find it confusing. The historical Jesus influenced the illusionary world via his reported miracles. Praying for another is an act of love. Sometimes we pray that they attain what they desire within the illusion since

1. Everyone has free will and we should "resist not evil" (in the metaphorical sense of not proclaiming what is right and just for another)
2. By accomplishing our ego goals within the illusion we become (although it may take a lot of what we call time) enlightened, as in the old song "Is that all there is?" So sometimes the best way to enlightenment is to enable the ego to attain all its materialistic goals.

I do believe that if we KNOW this is an illusion, it is fine to pray for events within that illusion, if that is our choice. I do not think that necessarily separates us more from God or reality-beyond. For example, if someone I know is sick and asks me to pray for their health, do I disdain this request because I feel the body is an illusion? No, I pray for that person to be loved, and within that love to find healing of mind, body and soul. I do not withhold my love in any form regardless of ACIM dogma or any other theoretical viewpoint on the matter (which is a pun, by the way).

As quite an interesting contrast to ACIM, I also watch Joel Osteen on Sunday morning. He is a traditional Christian pastor of the largest church in America, i.e., 35,000 members in Houston. Now what is fascinating about him is that he speaks NEW THOUGHT within the context of a traditional church, and I don't know how many congregants pick up on this. Yes, in the ACIM view, he is probably affirming that the illusion is real, and he is teaching people the power of their mind through Christ to fine tune that illusion.

But let's be realistic. We all do that and it is necessary in a practical sense. Do you work? Why not just proclaim that the need for food and shelter is an illusion and therefore work is not necessary? When ill, do you take any "magical" remedy? If you have an ear infection or something more dire, do you (like the CHristian Scientist) proclaim it illusion or do you take advantage of the magical rites to heal that particular manifestation while doing additional spiritual work to find the root cause in your guilt?

I found what Merovan wrote perfectly practical as a person living within the illusion. I suppose I would more likely ask the Holy Spirit to bless them with what they truly need, rather than dictate that need, but this is a trivial point.

Perhaps in a year or 5 or 10 I won't, after more study and experience of the spiritual life. Nonetheless, if prayer was good enough for the historical Jesus Christ, it is also good enough for me. I do believe that the illusion of amelable to our manipulation and the grace of the Holy Spirit, and this CONNECTS ME to that spiritual reality rather than separates me. If others wish to have a sort of spiritual ACIM puritanism where it is "bad" to pray for changes within the illusion, God Bless them. I have found in my 53 years of service in this illusion that prayer for change externally often helps create change BOTh externally and internally where cause begins.

Will

From: "M. Lyn Johnson" <mlyn81@...>
Reply-To: Disappearance_of_the_Universe@...
To: Disappearance_of_the_Universe@...
Subject: [Disappearance_of_the_Universe] Re: forgiveness
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 16:09:57 -0000

--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., WHOATLEEDS
<whoatleeds@y...> wrote:
by my praying for them to do well, I have done well also, funny
how that works in the realm of spirit. I still can't stand to be
around them but I am completely clear of any guilt. >>>>>>
Merovan
Hey, if you had that magical ability to ask for someone to do well,
and you profit from it as well, that might really be something. I
would be terrified if God could be so influenced to participate in
this world.

My opinion is that for you to wish for any kind of material gain for
another is really a curse. And it is a curse on yourself, as well.
Anything a Course student thinks they are doing to influence the
illusory world only reinforces the separation. Your sisters are
you...why not wish for them to awaken and embrace you as a Son of
God? You probably won't profit financially. But wouldn't you be
happier waking up in reality, and dismissing the world and all of
its gold as an illusion?.

You are my brother whom I love and long to be One with. We will see
this ..... hopefully soon.
Love,
Lyn

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Re: Reincarnation Instant Breakfast

James
 

From Jimbruck

Did I just see someone (write)say..'If this physical world is an
illusion?'
IMHO.. The physical world is something created By Holy Spirit to
further It's own development.
There are many reasons for this..

What is an egotistic universe? BTW?

kind reggards
James


--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "bluewave2404"
<kevin7575@c...> wrote:
Mag,

That's like asking: why are we here in this egoic universe? The
answer is that we aren't. The Sonship just forgot to laugh. The
ego "agreed" to everything else, but the ego isn't real. How can
nothingness agree to nothing? It can't.

Kevin


--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "Tamar Raine"
<tamarmag@e...> wrote:
here's a question; why would we agree to a karmic experience if
this physical world is an illusion???
Oakland Mayor's Commission on People with disabilities
~Tamar Mag Raine~
tamarmag@e...
IM: tamarmag48


----- Original Message -----
From: bluewave2404
To: Disappearance_of_the_Universe@...
Sent: 5/12/2005 3:10:45 PM
Subject: [Disappearance_of_the_Universe] Re: Reincarnation
Instant
Breakfast

Karma is something that we agree to before we are born, and I
think
you are correct when you write that it is something we want to
move
beyond. Without dualism there is no karma or suffering, and who
needs dualism? ..only the ego.

As for doing good deeds in the world:

"Kindness created me kind.
Helpfulness created me helpful."
Lesson 67

It depends upon our motivation. If we think that we should
perform
good deeds to atone for our sins, then we are using guilt as our
motivation. However, if we do good deeds because we feel guided
and
strengthened when we do, then I think it is helpful for speeding
up
our journey-without-distance back to Heaven.

Kevin







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To visit your group on the web, go to:


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
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Re: Reincarnation Instant Breakfast (karma)

[email protected]
 

I also am fascinated by the concept of karma, I think that the meaning of
karma is very broad and covers a lot of ideas. These ideas span both
experiences in the current life as well as the spiritual development we
carry with us from life to life until we attain enlightenment and return
home. I think that the definition of karma can be boiled down to its most
basic in the phrase "what goes around comes around". I find references to
karmic principals in Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, and Taoist scriptures.
These are the only traditions I have studied but I am sure they can be found
in Islamic scriptures as well as any other religion which has its foundation
in truth principals.



The Origins of the word karma seem to be from the Buddhist tradition. It is
used as what I would call a carrot and stick approach to leading a person to
enlightenment. Since the basic reason given for cultivating a heart of
compassion understanding and oneness with all life is to build up good Karma
so a better life can be lived in subsequent lifetimes. The truth is though
that by following this wisdom the ultimate result is enlightenment.



I have a saying hanging above my desk which is attributed to the Buddha
(circa 80 B.C.) "When a man's mind becomes pure, his surroundings will also
become pure." I find this a beautiful statement of karmic principals. I also
see these principals related in J's statement "As a man thinketh in his
heart, so is he." I Also see it in the statement "Judge not lest you be
judged with the same measure". I also see it in the statements of A&P when
they revealed that spiritual development is carried forward from lifetime to
lifetime until liberation is achieved.



From the perspective of ACIM we know that as we cultivate our link to true
mind thru communication with the HS and J we become more in tune with
reality and less affected by ego projections. This leads a peace and calm
which the ego can not affect. Even if the body is killed as J demonstrated
so long ago and A&P explained in DU.



Peace,



Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Disappearance_of_the_Universe@...
[mailto:Disappearance_of_the_Universe@...] On Behalf Of Martha
C.
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 7:13 AM
To: Disappearance_of_the_Universe@...
Subject: [Disappearance_of_the_Universe] Re: Reincarnation Instant Breakfast
(karma)



--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "bluewave2404"
<kevin7575@c...> wrote:
--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@...,
....
It's no big deal. It's not like I'm trying to tell everyone that DU
teaches about karma. I explicitly said that DU did not use the
word "karma." I was just sharing my thoughts on the subject because
someone else had brought it up. Thanks for always taking all the
fun out of it.


Kevin,

Yes... though the Course uses Christian terminology, it ultimately
redefines it. If it had used Eastern terminology it would also
ultimately have redefined it... afterall terms are words and we all
know that words are (i.e. "symbols of symbols and therefore twice
removed from reality" (ACIM)).

So what is it that karma in Course terms refers to? From this point of
view yes, the Course redefines karma too. The definition is clearly
spelled out when it states the one and only function of the miracle:

"The miracle is the first step in giving back to cause the function
of causation, not effect. For this confusion has produced the dream,
and while it lasts will wakening be feared. Nor will the call to
wakening be heard, because it seems to be the call to fear." (T-28.II.9.3)

Currently our experience is being caused by a "thing" that is nothing,
therefore it has no real cause. Being caused by nothing, our
experience is meaningless and so we struggle in the search for
meaning, writing our own meaning into everything. This causes a very
painful experience over and over, beause meaninglessness is painful.
So we repeat the cycle of experiences over and over seeking for that
meaning. The only way to find true meaning is to remember it. The only
real cause of true meaning is the Mind of God. Which is not what is
causing our experience.

Later on the Course says:

"The miracle returns the cause of fear to you who made it. But it also
shows that, having no effects, it is not cause, because the function
of causation is to have effects." (T-28.II.11.)

Our experience is being caused by the body (the embodiment of fear)
and therefore it is meaningless and endless repetitive (birth-death
cycle). This repetition of pain is what you could call karma.

Once we experience the miracle (change of mind from the mind of the
ego to the Mind of God) then we have returned to cause the true
function of causation. The Mind of God is the only true Cause.

Cause-and-effect are key to the teachings of the Course.

There is only one True Cause which causes only one REAL experience: Love.

We think there are multiple causes to endless situations... all
untrue. And quite easily definable as karma.

The reason forgiveness opportunities keep coming back is just because
of THE ATRACTION OF LOVE FOR LOVE ("What God did not give you has no
power over you, and the attraction of love for love remains
irresistible. For it is the function of love to unite all things unto
itself, and to hold all things together by extending its wholeness."
(T-12.VIII.7.10))

So forgiveness opportunities keep coming up to give you the chance to
make the choice once again. If you choose crucifixion you will
experience that, if you choose salvation you will experience that.

Crucifixion (pain) keeps coming back until you choose salvation
(joining) and this is the final choice. Once chosen it doesn't have to
come back around b/c it is the only true choice with true effects:
JOY, but not temporary, eternal.

All other choices result in temporary effects of pain or seeming joy
that lasts only a very short while....

So in essence you could say that karma form a Course perspective is
defined as the endless recycling of the egoic experience.

No, no one is imposing these cycles on us... because God does not
coherse, codjole, encourage, command, demand, blackmail, etc.. only
the ego does. Love is unconditional and it merely waits in eternal
patience until you change your mind.

It is the attraction of love for love (you are love and are attracted
therefore to your Self) and this in yourSelf keeps showing up the
opportunities to return home.

Love,

Martha C.










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Re: forgiveness

M. Lyn Johnson
 

--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., WHOATLEEDS
<whoatleeds@y...> wrote:
by my praying for them to do well, I have done well also, funny
how that works in the realm of spirit. I still can't stand to be
around them but I am completely clear of any guilt. >>>>>>
Merovan
Hey, if you had that magical ability to ask for someone to do well,
and you profit from it as well, that might really be something. I
would be terrified if God could be so influenced to participate in
this world.

My opinion is that for you to wish for any kind of material gain for
another is really a curse. And it is a curse on yourself, as well.
Anything a Course student thinks they are doing to influence the
illusory world only reinforces the separation. Your sisters are
you...why not wish for them to awaken and embrace you as a Son of
God? You probably won't profit financially. But wouldn't you be
happier waking up in reality, and dismissing the world and all of
its gold as an illusion?.

You are my brother whom I love and long to be One with. We will see
this ..... hopefully soon.
Love,
Lyn
Re: Thankful!

misstafyu
 

While I agree that Ed's post was thought provoking I feel my post
did not warrant a lecture in correction. There is not one of us here
who is perfect and the support in knowing that this group is here
and we can find comfort in knowing we are not alone in our journey
is huge for some of us. I was merely expressing my gratitude. While
I ask Jesus for guidance as often as I can I do not express this
outwardly anywhere but here. I run my business and direct my team
with the principles in mind and empower each one of my team members
as brothers. I also try to parent the same way and enlighten my
children in the principles as much as possible. They have both had
books since they were each 12 years of age and now each will have a
copy of DU.

All this to say that I strongly believe we should be allowed to
express our feelings of gratitude wherever we are on the path
without a lecture about how or why we are not being perfect ACIM
students here. That is not the point of DU and should not be
happening here in my "humble onion"!


--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., WHOATLEEDS
<whoatleeds@y...> wrote:
Dude, pretty profound, I was about to get in your grill for some
other stuff You wrote but this is chillin bro. You are one ACIM, DU
aware MFER. SLAP ME WITH YOUR GENTLE RULER!

Merovan
CONSERVATIVE ACIM GUY





<ed.ostack@a...> wrote:
Christy you write:

Most people I know would be convinced that I have completely
lost it if they knew how I actually perceive my existence!

The world has lost it long time ago, Christy...and it has
compelled
you and everyone else to march in the beat of its error.
Unfortunately the error is so profound that it's suggestions come
at
every corner of opportunity from the mass acceptance of body
reality.
Jesus even had a tough time with his disciples getting them to
understand it. Only reading beyond the 4 traditional gospels
reveals
this. Only when you are willing to stand where the whole world
stands against you will you understand what the value of truth is.
It has no meaning in numbers and acceptability, thats only for the
deluded who wish to remain comfortable with conformity.

..."so at least while I sleep in the illusion I do not feel so
alone!"

We are convinced that we NEED outer confirmation to make things
real
or at least meaningful and significant because we have minimalized
our very own internal mechanism which verifies and makes our own
choices valuable on their own without outer approval. When we seek
the outer to confirm what is within, it is because nothing
remains
within of any certainty. We have built on "sand". Thats why the
ground moves all the time. The Eternal is what we truly are and
until Eternal life is our reality without a shadow of a doubt, we
will feel alone and at the mercy of doctrines, church authorities,
and social forces which urge us for the sake of "their reality" to
come to their level. It is not a matter of "FAITH"...because what
is
real needs no belief to make it more real. WHen we cease to be
blown
back and forth over our beliefs and our certainty comes home to
us,
we will no longer feel any aloneness. AS long as we seek the outer
for our confirmation, we have not found within what is meant to
sustain us.
Ed





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So confused

 

"I think it is helpful for speeding up
our journey-without-distance back to Heaven."

Today I am projecting "people in authority or not, speaking to me in
non-sensical phrases and acting as if I should know what they mean. "
How the devil can you speed up a journey without distance?
How and why do I seek to atone for something that never happened?

I am about to the end of the rope that isn't there. I want to end a
life that doesn't exist. The novelty has quite worn off this little
charade and if I can't have an awareness of oneness with God it seems
the least I could ask for is oblivion! Yes, a nice little opium den
until all this ------ is over would be fine.

Rupert! I'm bored!

msglory
Re: forgiveness

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Robby x <Silver1069@...>
To: Disappearance_of_the_Universe@...
Sent: Fri, 13 May 2005 05:20:43 -0400
Subject: RE: [Disappearance_of_the_Universe] Re: forgiveness

Dear Kathleen:

When I stray into darkness and depression
I forget what I've learned in the Lesson
I have never left my true home in Heaven
Where universal peace is a blessin'

In Light,

Rob



When I read your post Rob, the word "stray" caught my attention.

What immediately came to mind is that I don't stray into the machinations of the ego thought system

The two images that immediately came to mind were

I am purposely walking on the edge of a precipice and anticipating at any moment to fall over, but just curious how long I can to do this.

and

I am in a yellow porshe and speeding out of control and Jesus is in the passenger seat saying, 'Hit the brake, hit the brake", and I am looking at him confused shouting "WHAT BRAKE" "IS THERE A BRAKE?" "I DON'T SEE A BRAKE"



;-)

Forgiveness Lessons abounds

Peace
Ossie

The best defense, as always, is not to attack another's position,
but rather to protect the truth (T-3.I.2).
Re: Reincarnation Instant Breakfast (karma)

Martha C.
 

--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "bluewave2404"
<kevin7575@c...> wrote:
--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@...,
....
It's no big deal. It's not like I'm trying to tell everyone that DU
teaches about karma. I explicitly said that DU did not use the
word "karma." I was just sharing my thoughts on the subject because
someone else had brought it up. Thanks for always taking all the
fun out of it.


Kevin,

Yes... though the Course uses Christian terminology, it ultimately
redefines it. If it had used Eastern terminology it would also
ultimately have redefined it... afterall terms are words and we all
know that words are (i.e. "symbols of symbols and therefore twice
removed from reality" (ACIM)).

So what is it that karma in Course terms refers to? From this point of
view yes, the Course redefines karma too. The definition is clearly
spelled out when it states the one and only function of the miracle:

"The miracle is the first step in giving back to cause the function
of causation, not effect. For this confusion has produced the dream,
and while it lasts will wakening be feared. Nor will the call to
wakening be heard, because it seems to be the call to fear." (T-28.II.9.3)

Currently our experience is being caused by a "thing" that is nothing,
therefore it has no real cause. Being caused by nothing, our
experience is meaningless and so we struggle in the search for
meaning, writing our own meaning into everything. This causes a very
painful experience over and over, beause meaninglessness is painful.
So we repeat the cycle of experiences over and over seeking for that
meaning. The only way to find true meaning is to remember it. The only
real cause of true meaning is the Mind of God. Which is not what is
causing our experience.

Later on the Course says:

"The miracle returns the cause of fear to you who made it. But it also
shows that, having no effects, it is not cause, because the function
of causation is to have effects." (T-28.II.11.)

Our experience is being caused by the body (the embodiment of fear)
and therefore it is meaningless and endless repetitive (birth-death
cycle). This repetition of pain is what you could call karma.

Once we experience the miracle (change of mind from the mind of the
ego to the Mind of God) then we have returned to cause the true
function of causation. The Mind of God is the only true Cause.

Cause-and-effect are key to the teachings of the Course.

There is only one True Cause which causes only one REAL experience: Love.

We think there are multiple causes to endless situations... all
untrue. And quite easily definable as karma.

The reason forgiveness opportunities keep coming back is just because
of THE ATRACTION OF LOVE FOR LOVE ("What God did not give you has no
power over you, and the attraction of love for love remains
irresistible. For it is the function of love to unite all things unto
itself, and to hold all things together by extending its wholeness."
(T-12.VIII.7.10))

So forgiveness opportunities keep coming up to give you the chance to
make the choice once again. If you choose crucifixion you will
experience that, if you choose salvation you will experience that.

Crucifixion (pain) keeps coming back until you choose salvation
(joining) and this is the final choice. Once chosen it doesn't have to
come back around b/c it is the only true choice with true effects:
JOY, but not temporary, eternal.

All other choices result in temporary effects of pain or seeming joy
that lasts only a very short while....

So in essence you could say that karma form a Course perspective is
defined as the endless recycling of the egoic experience.

No, no one is imposing these cycles on us... because God does not
coherse, codjole, encourage, command, demand, blackmail, etc.. only
the ego does. Love is unconditional and it merely waits in eternal
patience until you change your mind.

It is the attraction of love for love (you are love and are attracted
therefore to your Self) and this in yourSelf keeps showing up the
opportunities to return home.

Love,

Martha C.
Re: forgiveness

Robby x
 

Dear Kathleen:

When I stray into darkness and depression
I forget what I've learned in the Lesson
I have never left my true home in Heaven
Where universal peace is a blessin'

In Light,

Rob

{Anybody got any tricks up their sleeve they use to stay the course?
kathleen}

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Re: Thankful!

 

Dude, pretty profound, I was about to get in your grill for some other stuff You wrote but this is chillin bro. You are one ACIM, DU aware MFER. SLAP ME WITH YOUR GENTLE RULER!

Merovan
CONSERVATIVE ACIM GUY





<ed.ostack@...> wrote:
Christy you write:

Most people I know would be convinced that I have completely
lost it if they knew how I actually perceive my existence!

The world has lost it long time ago, Christy...and it has compelled
you and everyone else to march in the beat of its error.
Unfortunately the error is so profound that it's suggestions come at
every corner of opportunity from the mass acceptance of body reality.
Jesus even had a tough time with his disciples getting them to
understand it. Only reading beyond the 4 traditional gospels reveals
this. Only when you are willing to stand where the whole world
stands against you will you understand what the value of truth is.
It has no meaning in numbers and acceptability, thats only for the
deluded who wish to remain comfortable with conformity.

..."so at least while I sleep in the illusion I do not feel so
alone!"

We are convinced that we NEED outer confirmation to make things real
or at least meaningful and significant because we have minimalized
our very own internal mechanism which verifies and makes our own
choices valuable on their own without outer approval. When we seek
the outer to confirm what is within, it is because nothing remains
within of any certainty. We have built on "sand". Thats why the
ground moves all the time. The Eternal is what we truly are and
until Eternal life is our reality without a shadow of a doubt, we
will feel alone and at the mercy of doctrines, church authorities,
and social forces which urge us for the sake of "their reality" to
come to their level. It is not a matter of "FAITH"...because what is
real needs no belief to make it more real. WHen we cease to be blown
back and forth over our beliefs and our certainty comes home to us,
we will no longer feel any aloneness. AS long as we seek the outer
for our confirmation, we have not found within what is meant to
sustain us.
Ed





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Re: Thank you everyone

Robby x
 

Dear Jeremy:

Always remember that you are the blessed Son of God. That is the only judgement your Heavenly Father will ever pass upon You.

In Light,

Rob

{Thank you for all your support and input on my paticuliar experience.
I was expecting judgement, yet i sensed healing instead. This truly is
the work of the holy spirit! Thank you friends.
Jeremy}

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Re: begining reading ACIM-- On Pot

Robby x
 

Dear Christy:

I still crave to get high and do some "deep thinking." I long for those moments of "clarity." I have to remind myself constantly that I am not my craving nor my longing. I move deeply into these feelings and feel them rise to a peek until they pass. I have learned to trust the Holy Spirit Who tells me that no feeling will sustain itself forever because what has a beginning must also have an end. My feelings of craving and longing are part of the ego's unreal world of duality and the real me can watch them with the eyes of the Holy Spirit come and go like the waves of the ocean. I ask It, "Who am I?" It tells me who I am not; strips me down to nothing and then reconstructs me in Its own image so that I am, simply Am. And Christy, Jeremy and all of my brothers and sisters, so are You!

In Light,

Rob

{I know you were speaking to Jeremy Rob, but I had to say what a
great answer you have given and it is so true that while we can
become such deep thinkers while under the weed influence, it all
goes out the window when we settle back to our accustomed, rigorous
point in the illusion.

When I was very young I used to get stoned and read my Tarot cards
thinking I was empowered by the drug to gain more insight and wisdom
LOL! Now I look forward to furthering my enlightenment so I am once
again naturally high and existentially stoned on reality! &#61514;

Many miracles,
Christy}





--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "Robby x"
<Silver1069@h...> wrote:
Dear Jeremy:

I started smoking weed at the age of 14. By the age of 16 I was
snorting
cocain and ingesting LSD (acid.) I had a religious experience
while on LSD
that would forever change the way I saw life. It took me to
a "higher"
dimension of "reality." I wished I could stay in that state of
mind
forever. I thought I was experiencing the peace of God in
Heaven. But it
did not last.

For years I looked to drugs for the reproduction of this
experience, to no
avail. Nothing worked to take me back to that "abode of pure
bliss" again
that I longed to return to. I have craved to find it again for
the past 19
years.

I quit cocain and LSD at the age of twenty for fear of what they
were doing
to my body. After four years of using these drugs their toxic
effects upon
my brain began to show up in painfully real ways. I managed to
give them up
with the help of the Holy Spirit but continued to smoke weed on a
regular
basis, rationalizing its use exactly as you do now. I thought
weed helped
me to relax and think more deeply about any subject that I came
across.

When I first found the Course in Miracles I would smoke a joint
before
reading portions of the text believing the weed would help me to
understand
it better. I don't think it did because really I can't remember
any of the
so-called deep thoughts I was having about what I was reading in
the Course.
I now know that the weed was actually causing me to forget alot
of what I
was learning; it worked against me and wasted alot of my time and
effort to
learn what the Holy Spirit in the Course was trying to teach me.

Eventually, I was led by the Holy Spirit to give up the weed. My
mind, as a
result, has never been clearer. But I had to be ready. The Holy
Spirit
never pushed me to give up anything unless I was ready. It never
attacked
me for my wrong-mindedness; It just gently led me to think like It
thinks.
Consequently, I have found that peace of God again but this time
it is real
and not dreamed up. When that peace escapes me in daily life I
know how to
get it back instantly and naturally with the help of Jesus. And
believe me!
It's sometimes a real struggle for me to remember God in my
wanderings.
You see, I've been diagnosed with Bi-polar Disorder and the
doctors say I
should take drugs for it. I obeyed them for three years but the
drugs
did'nt help me. The only drug I take now is the Spirit and it has
only
positive side-effects. Don't waste your time taking drugs to help
you
understand the Course better. Trust me. That does'nt work,
brother. But,
you'll find out for yourself in due time. The Holy Spirit is in
you and It
will not fail you. It never failed me when I looked to It for
help.

In Light,

Rob

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Re: forgiveness

 

First off a person you see as needing forgiveness because they have wronged you or another IS your problem. YOU have the problem, they are innocent of all charges. Of course if they have killed, raped, or committed some other criminal act they still have to be punished by the law. Example: if you are raped, call the police, and have the perp arrested, and put away, do not be shy or afraid of criminals. After they have been safely put behind bars or executed then forgive them at your leisure. The other kind of forgiveness is much harder, when you actually have to continue to exist with people that are rude, crude and tatooted. Fortunately this is easy. All you have to do is wish them well, for instance, my rich well to do sisters who poor mouth constantly about what they don't have and constantly seek renumeration for every grain of salt and would take the coins off a dead man's eyes I have wished for them to become fabulously wealthy, and they have, they keep getting richer and
richer, the more I pray the richer they become. They haven't changed a sou but they are unbelievably wealthy. In turn, by my praying for them to do well, I have done well also, funny how that works in the realm of spirit. I still can't stand to be around them but I am completely clear of any guilt.

Merovan








llusion@...> wrote:
I am struggling with the concept of forgiveness.
Example:
A friend is in conflict with her husband and because she is away she
called me to be there for their son. I get upset because her husband
is an ass (see?). I KNOW that it is in my face for a reason, and
having done a lot of personal, spiritual growth over the years I think
I get a lot of stuff. I understand that this is a projection of mine.
I get that it is what it is, and I get that in the big picture it is a
projection of mine.
What I don't get is how to do the forgiveness.
What I need is a script to follow, so I can get in the habit of seeing
where forgiveness is used and HOW.

Another issue, several years old that I had cleaned up has come back to
flit around in my brain. I figure it is because of the CIM and DU that
I have been reading. Cleaning out the corners. The forgiveness I have
done on this issue has not been effective.

Any suggestions?

Kathleen




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Re: Reincarnation Instant Breakfast (karma)

 

Ossie, why do you always project onto me? So far you told me that
you remind me of your son, the white males who you despise in your
office, men who you used to know who would sit around the fire and
have intellectual conversations (which you thought was pointless),
and probably more.

Kevin

**

I respond to posts like you and everyone else Kevin. However when you feel attacked you always go to the past (your post above) to make it real for you now. You keep mentioning an observation I had based on a your earlier posts when you first signed up, and what is fascinating is how it changes every time you repeat it lol.

Why do you choose to go to the past and choose that memory and apply it to the moment? Why do you choose to hold on to that? Do you need it to make this illusory problem you think you have to validate your the position you state above?

It doesn't work here Kevin. I said nothing when you first started this because you were new to ACIM. But you seem to be a quick learner, and have done some readings, and have been on here long enough to know that you are responsible what you perceive, if not in experience at least intellectually. You and only you are responsible for the way you feel and the way you choose to react. If you are not at peace, it is your choice and you know Who to go to for help to let it go, if it is peace you want. However, you may need to hold on to your perceptions of me or anyone out there that you think is causing you problems for a while, and you know what Kevin, that is okay because it has nothing to do with me or anything going on this listserv. There is nothing outside of the mind and if the thoughts are there, it is your choice.

You seem to want people to respond to your posts and when they do and it does not meet up to your expectations you show your dissatisfaction. Well that is what good egos do, but a good ego also learns to take the good with the bad, for this is the world the Son made.

Yes there are some posts of mine you have no problem with and there are some and will continue to be some that will rub you the wrong way, that happens on listservs and you really should learn not to take what I or anyone on here say personally, when they do not agree with you, or else you are going to have a very difficult time on here, but then again this could be the perfect classroom for you to look at with Jesus.

You responded to a post, I responded to what you said coming from a different perspective. That is called a discussion. Now the recipient of these posts will make up their own mind and hopefully with guidance from their inner Teacher.

Now back to the topic. I only have the concept of Karma that I have and responded accordingly, and like everything in this illusion, it is not real, it is not important and that is what I look at with Jesus.

I try to keep it simple as possible, if it does not exist in Heaven, it is not real, and if it is not mentioned to ACIM as something I need to know, then I don't worry about it. Whatever limited illusory concepts I do have, I look at it with Jesus because those concepts keeps me rooted in the illusion.

In closing, whatever negative reaction one may experiencing to anything out there is simply a call for Love that exists within the mind of the sonship. Jesus/HS is not responding to puppets labeled Ossie and Kevin within the illusion, they are responding to the call for Love within the mind of the sleeping and fearful Sonship. As a Course student the answer to that call is Love and I can choose to experience the reflection of Love through the process of Forgiveness.


Peace
Ossie

The best defense, as always, is not to attack another's position,
but rather to protect the truth (T-3.I.2).
80121 - 80140 of 93077