This will force me to take advantage of the sweep functions of my various generators. I once knew how to set everything up but haven¡¯t done it that way in ages.?
Steve Wedge, W1ES
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
On Thu, May 29, 2025 at 10:24, n4buq < n4buq@...> wrote:
That's the strange part to me.? Why would it be necessary to readjust the CO if that only knocks the filter matching out of alignment.? Like I said, perhaps it's a bit iterative and, at some point, the CO will not need any more adjustment after getting the matching transformers adjusted.
Barry - N4BUQ
The two adjustments are interactive. The setting of the steady signal so that the amplitude is equal in both sidebands is to get you into the centre of the combined passbands of USB and LSB. Once you¡¯re adjusted there, what happens if you change the CO? ?You move the centre. That means you need to redo the filter match.?
Steve Wedge, W1ES
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
On Thu, May 29, 2025 at 09:29, n4buq <
n4buq@...> wrote:
What's odd is that the instructions state to set the CO after doing the filter match.? I did that so now I'm wondering if it should be done a few times before everything settles down to optimum.
Something I did was to inject a signal into the antenna jack, remove V7, and with power off, monitor the AC voltage at pin 1 with my VTVM while rotating the RF TUNE control.? I was quite surprised at how much increase is seen at resonance.? Basically, I wanted to make sure I wasn't getting an attenuation from the antenna jack to that pin and it looks like I am not seeing much if any attenuation.
73,
Barry - N4BUQ
From: "Steve Wedge, W1ES/4 via groups.io" <w1es@...>
To: "DRAKE-RADIO" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2025 8:21:12 AM
Subject: Re: [DRAKE-RADIO] TR3/4 Meters
It¡¯s amazing how easy it is to flub the filter match. It¡¯s also dependent on having the carrier oscillator set properly. You set the CO, then do the filter match.?
This TR-3 I¡¯m working on may have some soupcan filter issues. If I try to look at it on a spectrum display, I¡¯m getting two peaks. If I adjust to the stronger peak, the radio sounds like crap on one sideband. Going to need to do it by ear.?
Steve Wedge, W1ES
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
On Wed, May 28, 2025 at 23:16, n4buq <
n4buq@...> wrote:
I went back through the alignment for the filter matching transformers (T6 and T13).? That knocked 10dB off the input signal so that I'm down to a "mere" 300uV for S9 so I think something's still not quite right.
The rig can "hear" a 0.3uV CW signal but I'm pretty sure that's not how to determine whether the radio is working properly.? S+N/N is a better way and according to the manual, that's supposed to be less than 1/2uV for 10 dB S+N/N.? I'll try to measure that and see what I get.
Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ
Speaking of meters, the TR-4 manual states that 30uV should yield S-9.? I know there's a lot of "controversy" around this but I'm wondering if this is a realistic expectation.? I ask because I have to cram 1000 uV into the antenna jack to get S-9 on the meter and I'm pretty sure that's unreasonably too high.
I can get an S-9 with the calibrator signal on 80M and 40M but that starts to fall off as I run through the higher bands to the point that I can hardly see the meter move on any of the 10M bands. Using the signal generator into the antenna jack also falls off on the higher bands but not nearly as much as the calibrator does.
I suspect something's amiss with the receive circuitry but thought I'd see whether this might just be typical (but I doubt it is).
Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ
From: "Stan Gammons via groups.io" <buttercup11421@...>
To: "DRAKE-RADIO" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2025 6:23:34 PM
Subject: Re: [DRAKE-RADIO] TR3/4 Meters
Has anyone ask Bill Frost if he knows who made the meters? ?Maybe one can determine the type of meter if we know who made it.
73
Stan?
KM4HQE
On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 1:03 PM, John K5MO via groups.io <
johnk5mo@...> wrote:
Exactly, Barry!
The conclusion still seems to be that nobody knows.? I think these topics are cyclical...every couple of years since the dawn of the Drake reflector(s)
John K5MO
Like the one in this topic?
Barry - N4BUQ
From: "John K5MO via
" <johnk5mo=
[email protected]>
To: "DRAKE-RADIO" <
[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2025 10:34:34 AM
Subject: Re: [DRAKE-RADIO] TR3/4 Meters
This phenomenon is one of the long term mysteries of the various Drake lists.
Somewhere I have a tray of 100 EMICO (I think ) edgewise meters I bought that are visually the same as the drake units, but I'm not sure I know where they are, and I never tested them to see if electrically they were the same FS current.
I might launch a search mission, but it will be a day long affair to empty that closet.
John
On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 9:45?AM Steve Wedge, W1ES/4 via
<w1es=
[email protected]> wrote:
Hi, Craig ¡ª
These solutions have been discussed before. The best we have found is that the bouncing meter problem is entirely mechanical. People have tried swamping with capacitance to no avail. It has something to do with mechanical damping.?
Interestingly, it¡¯s only these edge-reading meters that manifest the bouncing problem. In fact, one can see the problem with no power applied at all and shorting the terminals makes no difference.?
I don¡¯t have a scrap meter that bounces or I¡¯d start to get inside it and see if any sort of adjustment could be made.?
The owner of this set has told me that it¡¯s not important
To him but I¡¯d still like to find an answer!
73,
Steve Wedge, W1ES
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 09:20, Craig W8CS via
<
craig_severson@...> wrote:
I hesitate to offer this as it's not what you're asking for, but if you can't find a direct solution, you might try experimenting with some caps across the meter leads to slow down the time constant of the meter response.?
?
Start by adding something ridiculously large (mF-wise)? to see if it over-compensates and makes the meter "too slow," and then adjust down from there.?
--
Craig/W8CS
Greenville, SC
|
That's the strange part to me.? Why would it be necessary to readjust the CO if that only knocks the filter matching out of alignment.? Like I said, perhaps it's a bit iterative and, at some point, the CO will not need any more adjustment after getting the matching transformers adjusted.
Barry - N4BUQ
The two adjustments are interactive. The setting of the steady signal so that the amplitude is equal in both sidebands is to get you into the centre of the combined passbands of USB and LSB. Once you¡¯re adjusted there, what happens if you change the CO? ?You move the centre. That means you need to redo the filter match.?
Steve Wedge, W1ES
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
On Thu, May 29, 2025 at 09:29, n4buq <n4buq@...> wrote:
What's odd is that the instructions state to set the CO after doing the filter match.? I did that so now I'm wondering if it should be done a few times before everything settles down to optimum.
Something I did was to inject a signal into the antenna jack, remove V7, and with power off, monitor the AC voltage at pin 1 with my VTVM while rotating the RF TUNE control.? I was quite surprised at how much increase is seen at resonance.? Basically, I wanted to make sure I wasn't getting an attenuation from the antenna jack to that pin and it looks like I am not seeing much if any attenuation.
73,
Barry - N4BUQ
From: "Steve Wedge, W1ES/4 via groups.io" <w1es@...>
To: "DRAKE-RADIO" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2025 8:21:12 AM
Subject: Re: [DRAKE-RADIO] TR3/4 Meters
It¡¯s amazing how easy it is to flub the filter match. It¡¯s also dependent on having the carrier oscillator set properly. You set the CO, then do the filter match.?
This TR-3 I¡¯m working on may have some soupcan filter issues. If I try to look at it on a spectrum display, I¡¯m getting two peaks. If I adjust to the stronger peak, the radio sounds like crap on one sideband. Going to need to do it by ear.?
Steve Wedge, W1ES
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
On Wed, May 28, 2025 at 23:16, n4buq <
n4buq@...> wrote:
I went back through the alignment for the filter matching transformers (T6 and T13).? That knocked 10dB off the input signal so that I'm down to a "mere" 300uV for S9 so I think something's still not quite right.
The rig can "hear" a 0.3uV CW signal but I'm pretty sure that's not how to determine whether the radio is working properly.? S+N/N is a better way and according to the manual, that's supposed to be less than 1/2uV for 10 dB S+N/N.? I'll try to measure that and see what I get.
Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ
Speaking of meters, the TR-4 manual states that 30uV should yield S-9.? I know there's a lot of "controversy" around this but I'm wondering if this is a realistic expectation.? I ask because I have to cram 1000 uV into the antenna jack to get S-9 on the meter and I'm pretty sure that's unreasonably too high.
I can get an S-9 with the calibrator signal on 80M and 40M but that starts to fall off as I run through the higher bands to the point that I can hardly see the meter move on any of the 10M bands. Using the signal generator into the antenna jack also falls off on the higher bands but not nearly as much as the calibrator does.
I suspect something's amiss with the receive circuitry but thought I'd see whether this might just be typical (but I doubt it is).
Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ
From: "Stan Gammons via groups.io" <buttercup11421@...>
To: "DRAKE-RADIO" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2025 6:23:34 PM
Subject: Re: [DRAKE-RADIO] TR3/4 Meters
Has anyone ask Bill Frost if he knows who made the meters? ?Maybe one can determine the type of meter if we know who made it.
73
Stan?
KM4HQE
On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 1:03 PM, John K5MO via groups.io <
johnk5mo@...> wrote:
Exactly, Barry!
The conclusion still seems to be that nobody knows.? I think these topics are cyclical...every couple of years since the dawn of the Drake reflector(s)
John K5MO
Like the one in this topic?
Barry - N4BUQ
From: "John K5MO via
" <johnk5mo=
[email protected]>
To: "DRAKE-RADIO" <
[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2025 10:34:34 AM
Subject: Re: [DRAKE-RADIO] TR3/4 Meters
This phenomenon is one of the long term mysteries of the various Drake lists.
Somewhere I have a tray of 100 EMICO (I think ) edgewise meters I bought that are visually the same as the drake units, but I'm not sure I know where they are, and I never tested them to see if electrically they were the same FS current.
I might launch a search mission, but it will be a day long affair to empty that closet.
John
On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 9:45?AM Steve Wedge, W1ES/4 via
<w1es=
[email protected]> wrote:
Hi, Craig ¡ª
These solutions have been discussed before. The best we have found is that the bouncing meter problem is entirely mechanical. People have tried swamping with capacitance to no avail. It has something to do with mechanical damping.?
Interestingly, it¡¯s only these edge-reading meters that manifest the bouncing problem. In fact, one can see the problem with no power applied at all and shorting the terminals makes no difference.?
I don¡¯t have a scrap meter that bounces or I¡¯d start to get inside it and see if any sort of adjustment could be made.?
The owner of this set has told me that it¡¯s not important
To him but I¡¯d still like to find an answer!
73,
Steve Wedge, W1ES
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 09:20, Craig W8CS via
<
craig_severson@...> wrote:
I hesitate to offer this as it's not what you're asking for, but if you can't find a direct solution, you might try experimenting with some caps across the meter leads to slow down the time constant of the meter response.?
?
Start by adding something ridiculously large (mF-wise)? to see if it over-compensates and makes the meter "too slow," and then adjust down from there.?
--
Craig/W8CS
Greenville, SC
|
IIRC, either the 1-A or 2-B has you set the filter match by adjusting for loudest background noise.?
I agree that the later procedure sets it more accurately. Misadjusting the fm can knock significant dB¡¯s off the received signal.?
The two adjustments are interactive. The setting of the steady signal so that the amplitude is equal in both sidebands is to get you into the centre of the combined passbands of USB and LSB. Once you¡¯re adjusted there, what happens if you change the CO? ?You move the centre. That means you need to redo the filter match.?
Steve Wedge, W1ES
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
On Thu, May 29, 2025 at 09:29, n4buq < n4buq@...> wrote:
What's odd is that the instructions state to set the CO after doing the filter match.? I did that so now I'm wondering if it should be done a few times before everything settles down to optimum.
Something I did was to inject a signal into the antenna jack, remove V7, and with power off, monitor the AC voltage at pin 1 with my VTVM while rotating the RF TUNE control.? I was quite surprised at how much increase is seen at resonance.? Basically, I wanted to make sure I wasn't getting an attenuation from the antenna jack to that pin and it looks like I am not seeing much if any attenuation.
73,
Barry - N4BUQ
From: "Steve Wedge, W1ES/4 via groups.io" <w1es@...>
To: "DRAKE-RADIO" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2025 8:21:12 AM
Subject: Re: [DRAKE-RADIO] TR3/4 Meters
It¡¯s amazing how easy it is to flub the filter match. It¡¯s also dependent on having the carrier oscillator set properly. You set the CO, then do the filter match.?
This TR-3 I¡¯m working on may have some soupcan filter issues. If I try to look at it on a spectrum display, I¡¯m getting two peaks. If I adjust to the stronger peak, the radio sounds like crap on one sideband. Going to need to do it by ear.?
Steve Wedge, W1ES
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
On Wed, May 28, 2025 at 23:16, n4buq <
n4buq@...> wrote:
I went back through the alignment for the filter matching transformers (T6 and T13).? That knocked 10dB off the input signal so that I'm down to a "mere" 300uV for S9 so I think something's still not quite right.
The rig can "hear" a 0.3uV CW signal but I'm pretty sure that's not how to determine whether the radio is working properly.? S+N/N is a better way and according to the manual, that's supposed to be less than 1/2uV for 10 dB S+N/N.? I'll try to measure that and see what I get.
Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ
Speaking of meters, the TR-4 manual states that 30uV should yield S-9.? I know there's a lot of "controversy" around this but I'm wondering if this is a realistic expectation.? I ask because I have to cram 1000 uV into the antenna jack to get S-9 on the meter and I'm pretty sure that's unreasonably too high.
I can get an S-9 with the calibrator signal on 80M and 40M but that starts to fall off as I run through the higher bands to the point that I can hardly see the meter move on any of the 10M bands. Using the signal generator into the antenna jack also falls off on the higher bands but not nearly as much as the calibrator does.
I suspect something's amiss with the receive circuitry but thought I'd see whether this might just be typical (but I doubt it is).
Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ
From: "Stan Gammons via groups.io" <buttercup11421@...>
To: "DRAKE-RADIO" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2025 6:23:34 PM
Subject: Re: [DRAKE-RADIO] TR3/4 Meters
Has anyone ask Bill Frost if he knows who made the meters? ?Maybe one can determine the type of meter if we know who made it.
73
Stan?
KM4HQE
On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 1:03 PM, John K5MO via groups.io <
johnk5mo@...> wrote:
Exactly, Barry!
The conclusion still seems to be that nobody knows.? I think these topics are cyclical...every couple of years since the dawn of the Drake reflector(s)
John K5MO
Like the one in this topic?
Barry - N4BUQ
From: "John K5MO via
" <johnk5mo=
[email protected]>
To: "DRAKE-RADIO" <
[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2025 10:34:34 AM
Subject: Re: [DRAKE-RADIO] TR3/4 Meters
This phenomenon is one of the long term mysteries of the various Drake lists.
Somewhere I have a tray of 100 EMICO (I think ) edgewise meters I bought that are visually the same as the drake units, but I'm not sure I know where they are, and I never tested them to see if electrically they were the same FS current.
I might launch a search mission, but it will be a day long affair to empty that closet.
John
On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 9:45?AM Steve Wedge, W1ES/4 via
<w1es=
[email protected]> wrote:
Hi, Craig ¡ª
These solutions have been discussed before. The best we have found is that the bouncing meter problem is entirely mechanical. People have tried swamping with capacitance to no avail. It has something to do with mechanical damping.?
Interestingly, it¡¯s only these edge-reading meters that manifest the bouncing problem. In fact, one can see the problem with no power applied at all and shorting the terminals makes no difference.?
I don¡¯t have a scrap meter that bounces or I¡¯d start to get inside it and see if any sort of adjustment could be made.?
The owner of this set has told me that it¡¯s not important
To him but I¡¯d still like to find an answer!
73,
Steve Wedge, W1ES
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 09:20, Craig W8CS via
<
craig_severson@...> wrote:
I hesitate to offer this as it's not what you're asking for, but if you can't find a direct solution, you might try experimenting with some caps across the meter leads to slow down the time constant of the meter response.?
?
Start by adding something ridiculously large (mF-wise)? to see if it over-compensates and makes the meter "too slow," and then adjust down from there.?
--
Craig/W8CS
Greenville, SC
|
What's odd is that the instructions state to set the CO after doing the filter match.? I did that so now I'm wondering if it should be done a few times before everything settles down to optimum.
Something I did was to inject a signal into the antenna jack, remove V7, and with power off, monitor the AC voltage at pin 1 with my VTVM while rotating the RF TUNE control.? I was quite surprised at how much increase is seen at resonance.? Basically, I wanted to make sure I wasn't getting an attenuation from the antenna jack to that pin and it looks like I am not seeing much if any attenuation.
73, Barry - N4BUQ
From: "Steve Wedge, W1ES/4 via groups.io" <w1es@...>
To: "DRAKE-RADIO" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2025 8:21:12 AM
Subject: Re: [DRAKE-RADIO] TR3/4 Meters
It¡¯s amazing how easy it is to flub the filter match. It¡¯s also dependent on having the carrier oscillator set properly. You set the CO, then do the filter match.?
This TR-3 I¡¯m working on may have some soupcan filter issues. If I try to look at it on a spectrum display, I¡¯m getting two peaks. If I adjust to the stronger peak, the radio sounds like crap on one sideband. Going to need to do it by ear.?
Steve Wedge, W1ES
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
On Wed, May 28, 2025 at 23:16, n4buq <n4buq@...> wrote:
I went back through the alignment for the filter matching transformers (T6 and T13).? That knocked 10dB off the input signal so that I'm down to a "mere" 300uV for S9 so I think something's still not quite right.
The rig can "hear" a 0.3uV CW signal but I'm pretty sure that's not how to determine whether the radio is working properly.? S+N/N is a better way and according to the manual, that's supposed to be less than 1/2uV for 10 dB S+N/N.? I'll try to measure that and see what I get.
Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ
Speaking of meters, the TR-4 manual states that 30uV should yield S-9.? I know there's a lot of "controversy" around this but I'm wondering if this is a realistic expectation.? I ask because I have to cram 1000 uV into the antenna jack to get S-9 on the meter and I'm pretty sure that's unreasonably too high.
I can get an S-9 with the calibrator signal on 80M and 40M but that starts to fall off as I run through the higher bands to the point that I can hardly see the meter move on any of the 10M bands. Using the signal generator into the antenna jack also falls off on the higher bands but not nearly as much as the calibrator does.
I suspect something's amiss with the receive circuitry but thought I'd see whether this might just be typical (but I doubt it is).
Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ
From: "Stan Gammons via groups.io" <buttercup11421@...>
To: "DRAKE-RADIO" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2025 6:23:34 PM
Subject: Re: [DRAKE-RADIO] TR3/4 Meters
Has anyone ask Bill Frost if he knows who made the meters? ?Maybe one can determine the type of meter if we know who made it.
73
Stan?
KM4HQE
On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 1:03 PM, John K5MO via groups.io <
johnk5mo@...> wrote:
Exactly, Barry!
The conclusion still seems to be that nobody knows.? I think these topics are cyclical...every couple of years since the dawn of the Drake reflector(s)
John K5MO
Like the one in this topic?
Barry - N4BUQ
From: "John K5MO via
" <johnk5mo=
[email protected]>
To: "DRAKE-RADIO" <
[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2025 10:34:34 AM
Subject: Re: [DRAKE-RADIO] TR3/4 Meters
This phenomenon is one of the long term mysteries of the various Drake lists.
Somewhere I have a tray of 100 EMICO (I think ) edgewise meters I bought that are visually the same as the drake units, but I'm not sure I know where they are, and I never tested them to see if electrically they were the same FS current.
I might launch a search mission, but it will be a day long affair to empty that closet.
John
On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 9:45?AM Steve Wedge, W1ES/4 via
<w1es=
[email protected]> wrote:
Hi, Craig ¡ª
These solutions have been discussed before. The best we have found is that the bouncing meter problem is entirely mechanical. People have tried swamping with capacitance to no avail. It has something to do with mechanical damping.?
Interestingly, it¡¯s only these edge-reading meters that manifest the bouncing problem. In fact, one can see the problem with no power applied at all and shorting the terminals makes no difference.?
I don¡¯t have a scrap meter that bounces or I¡¯d start to get inside it and see if any sort of adjustment could be made.?
The owner of this set has told me that it¡¯s not important
To him but I¡¯d still like to find an answer!
73,
Steve Wedge, W1ES
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 09:20, Craig W8CS via
<
craig_severson@...> wrote:
I hesitate to offer this as it's not what you're asking for, but if you can't find a direct solution, you might try experimenting with some caps across the meter leads to slow down the time constant of the meter response.?
?
Start by adding something ridiculously large (mF-wise)? to see if it over-compensates and makes the meter "too slow," and then adjust down from there.?
--
Craig/W8CS
Greenville, SC
|
It¡¯s amazing how easy it is to flub the filter match. It¡¯s also dependent on having the carrier oscillator set properly. You set the CO, then do the filter match.?
This TR-3 I¡¯m working on may have some soupcan filter issues. If I try to look at it on a spectrum display, I¡¯m getting two peaks. If I adjust to the stronger peak, the radio sounds like crap on one sideband. Going to need to do it by ear.?
Steve Wedge, W1ES
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
On Wed, May 28, 2025 at 23:16, n4buq < n4buq@...> wrote:
I went back through the alignment for the filter matching transformers (T6 and T13).? That knocked 10dB off the input signal so that I'm down to a "mere" 300uV for S9 so I think something's still not quite right.
The rig can "hear" a 0.3uV CW signal but I'm pretty sure that's not how to determine whether the radio is working properly.? S+N/N is a better way and according to the manual, that's supposed to be less than 1/2uV for 10 dB S+N/N.? I'll try to measure that and see what I get.
Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ
Speaking of meters, the TR-4 manual states that 30uV should yield S-9.? I know there's a lot of "controversy" around this but I'm wondering if this is a realistic expectation.? I ask because I have to cram 1000 uV into the antenna jack to get S-9 on the meter and I'm pretty sure that's unreasonably too high.
I can get an S-9 with the calibrator signal on 80M and 40M but that starts to fall off as I run through the higher bands to the point that I can hardly see the meter move on any of the 10M bands. Using the signal generator into the antenna jack also falls off on the higher bands but not nearly as much as the calibrator does.
I suspect something's amiss with the receive circuitry but thought I'd see whether this might just be typical (but I doubt it is).
Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ
From: "Stan Gammons via groups.io" <buttercup11421@...>
To: "DRAKE-RADIO" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2025 6:23:34 PM
Subject: Re: [DRAKE-RADIO] TR3/4 Meters
Has anyone ask Bill Frost if he knows who made the meters? ?Maybe one can determine the type of meter if we know who made it.
73
Stan?
KM4HQE
On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 1:03 PM, John K5MO via groups.io <
johnk5mo@...> wrote:
Exactly, Barry!
The conclusion still seems to be that nobody knows.? I think these topics are cyclical...every couple of years since the dawn of the Drake reflector(s)
John K5MO
Like the one in this topic?
Barry - N4BUQ
From: "John K5MO via
" <johnk5mo=
[email protected]>
To: "DRAKE-RADIO" <
[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2025 10:34:34 AM
Subject: Re: [DRAKE-RADIO] TR3/4 Meters
This phenomenon is one of the long term mysteries of the various Drake lists.
Somewhere I have a tray of 100 EMICO (I think ) edgewise meters I bought that are visually the same as the drake units, but I'm not sure I know where they are, and I never tested them to see if electrically they were the same FS current.
I might launch a search mission, but it will be a day long affair to empty that closet.
John
On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 9:45?AM Steve Wedge, W1ES/4 via
<w1es=
[email protected]> wrote:
Hi, Craig ¡ª
These solutions have been discussed before. The best we have found is that the bouncing meter problem is entirely mechanical. People have tried swamping with capacitance to no avail. It has something to do with mechanical damping.?
Interestingly, it¡¯s only these edge-reading meters that manifest the bouncing problem. In fact, one can see the problem with no power applied at all and shorting the terminals makes no difference.?
I don¡¯t have a scrap meter that bounces or I¡¯d start to get inside it and see if any sort of adjustment could be made.?
The owner of this set has told me that it¡¯s not important
To him but I¡¯d still like to find an answer!
73,
Steve Wedge, W1ES
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 09:20, Craig W8CS via
<
craig_severson@...> wrote:
I hesitate to offer this as it's not what you're asking for, but if you can't find a direct solution, you might try experimenting with some caps across the meter leads to slow down the time constant of the meter response.?
?
Start by adding something ridiculously large (mF-wise)? to see if it over-compensates and makes the meter "too slow," and then adjust down from there.?
--
Craig/W8CS
Greenville, SC
|
Thanks to EVERYONE who is trying to help me out. I greatly appreciate it! I am a very busy person so hopefully this weekend I will attempt to sort out the issue that I am having. I will keep everyone posted on my findings so that I can help others if they run into the same problem.
|
Re: Drake SPR-4 50 Khz IF and 50 Khz Filter alignment
Just reading the features of my multimeter, Sanwa EM7000, the DC voltage funtion has an internal resistance as high as 2,5 to 12 Mega Ohms. So, I think is more than enough.
Yes, I have also tested it with a decent DMM and no result.
?
I do not what to do, if buy a VTVM or send the Drakes to a technician in order to have them aligned. I would like to make the alignment by myself in order to keep them working correctly. I have also got a Drake R4b waiting to be aligned too.
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I went back through the alignment for the filter matching transformers (T6 and T13).? That knocked 10dB off the input signal so that I'm down to a "mere" 300uV for S9 so I think something's still not quite right.
The rig can "hear" a 0.3uV CW signal but I'm pretty sure that's not how to determine whether the radio is working properly.? S+N/N is a better way and according to the manual, that's supposed to be less than 1/2uV for 10 dB S+N/N.? I'll try to measure that and see what I get.
Thanks, Barry - N4BUQ
Speaking of meters, the TR-4 manual states that 30uV should yield S-9.? I know there's a lot of "controversy" around this but I'm wondering if this is a realistic expectation.? I ask because I have to cram 1000 uV into the antenna jack to get S-9 on the meter and I'm pretty sure that's unreasonably too high. I can get an S-9 with the calibrator signal on 80M and 40M but that starts to fall off as I run through the higher bands to the point that I can hardly see the meter move on any of the 10M bands. Using the signal generator into the antenna jack also falls off on the higher bands but not nearly as much as the calibrator does. I suspect something's amiss with the receive circuitry but thought I'd see whether this might just be typical (but I doubt it is). Thanks, Barry - N4BUQ
From: "Stan Gammons via groups.io" <buttercup11421@...>
To: "DRAKE-RADIO" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2025 6:23:34 PM
Subject: Re: [DRAKE-RADIO] TR3/4 Meters
Has anyone ask Bill Frost if he knows who made the meters? ?Maybe one can determine the type of meter if we know who made it.
73
Stan? KM4HQE
On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 1:03 PM, John K5MO via groups.io <johnk5mo@...> wrote:
Exactly, Barry!
The conclusion still seems to be that nobody knows.? I think these topics are cyclical...every couple of years since the dawn of the Drake reflector(s)
John K5MO
Like the one in this topic?
Barry - N4BUQ
From: "John K5MO via
" <johnk5mo=
[email protected]>
To: "DRAKE-RADIO" <
[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2025 10:34:34 AM
Subject: Re: [DRAKE-RADIO] TR3/4 Meters
This phenomenon is one of the long term mysteries of the various Drake lists.
Somewhere I have a tray of 100 EMICO (I think ) edgewise meters I bought that are visually the same as the drake units, but I'm not sure I know where they are, and I never tested them to see if electrically they were the same FS current.
I might launch a search mission, but it will be a day long affair to empty that closet.
John
On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 9:45?AM Steve Wedge, W1ES/4 via
<w1es=
[email protected]> wrote:
Hi, Craig ¡ª
These solutions have been discussed before. The best we have found is that the bouncing meter problem is entirely mechanical. People have tried swamping with capacitance to no avail. It has something to do with mechanical damping.?
Interestingly, it¡¯s only these edge-reading meters that manifest the bouncing problem. In fact, one can see the problem with no power applied at all and shorting the terminals makes no difference.?
I don¡¯t have a scrap meter that bounces or I¡¯d start to get inside it and see if any sort of adjustment could be made.?
The owner of this set has told me that it¡¯s not important
To him but I¡¯d still like to find an answer!
73,
Steve Wedge, W1ES
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 09:20, Craig W8CS via
<
craig_severson@...> wrote:
I hesitate to offer this as it's not what you're asking for, but if you can't find a direct solution, you might try experimenting with some caps across the meter leads to slow down the time constant of the meter response.?
?
Start by adding something ridiculously large (mF-wise)? to see if it over-compensates and makes the meter "too slow," and then adjust down from there.?
--
Craig/W8CS
Greenville, SC
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Re: Drake SPR-4 50 Khz IF and 50 Khz Filter alignment
I am thinking that your 2.5M meter is too low. Drake wisely specifies an 11M VTVM for the measurements. A decent modern DMM will have that high of an impedance on all ranges. However you should still see a reading on your S Meter if you have enough signal and your meter is not connected. I would expect to see S9 with 30 to 50 microvolts into the antenna jack. The calibrator signal should be loud on the low bands. You would need an RF millivolt meter to measure RF voltages although an RF probe and a VTVM/DMM would let you make some educated guesses. Tantalum capacitors are very reliable when not abused. They are either good, shorted, or smoked. It is the aluminum electrolytics that you need to be wary of. On Wed, 28 May 2025 10:24:35 -0700 "enriqueeeeee2001 via groups.io" <enriqueeeeee2001@...> wrote: I have already checked the voltage, only drops a 0. 1 volt in both receivers. I have also made an ocualr inspection in the solder joints of the capcitors you said; no cold o something strange . What I do not like are those two tamtalun capacitors they are prone to fail soon or later. -- 73 -Jim NU0C
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Re: R4B Crystal Calibrator
Ed,
The calibrator can also be configured to produce a 100 kHz
calibration signal and the chips aren't required in that
configuration.? See the excerpt from the R-4B manual attached.
73,
Bill = NA5DX
??
On 5/28/2025 10:26 AM, Edward w1fu via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hi,
Turned on my R4B calibrator, bad hum, them puff. Bad 1000 uf
electrolytic in the 12v. line. Changed it, voltage ok, but dead.
Suspect IC. Been looking, but cant find them. Anyone know a
source? May stick in a small calibrator board I have instead,
thoughts?
?
Ed
W1FU
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Steve,
He needs to study the TR4CW schematic filament and lamp wiring so he
understands
how it's wired. He also need to pay attention to the side band
switch setting and
the band switch setting as both affect which side band lamp is lit.
He should set the
rear lamp "B" or "D" switch setting to "B", this bypasses the lamp
series resistor to ground
in "D" setting to dim the meter and dial lamps. All of this is found
on the schematic.
73
Mike W5RKL
On 5/28/25 1:45 PM, Steve Wedge, W1ES/4
via groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Don't
get me wrong, Mike.? I agree that a dim bulb tester is not the
appropriate test equipment for this problem.? I would first do
what you (I believe -- it's a long thread!) and others have
suggested and run the TR-4 with no tubes in and check for shorts
or high-resistance shorts in the filament circuit.? Current draw
of a good AC-4 at 120 VAC input is around 400-500 mA.? A Variac
with a 2A fuse and 2A capacity should be adequate to check a
tubeless TR-4 running off an AC-4.? If you see significantly
more current than 500 mA, you have a problem in the TR-4 (since
the supply has been confirmed as good). A nicked wire touching a
grounded part sounds like the issue to me because it seems to
immediately blow the fuse, then later takes a couple of minutes
to blow the fuse.? Further testing can be done by removing all
the lamps AND tubes and testing the resistance across both legs
of the 12 VAC power connection (power supply removed).
If
you have a hipot tester you could try that.? The spark will be
really obvious if it's intermittently touching something.
Steve Wedge, W1ES
Time flies like an arrow.? Fruit flies like a banana.
Sent with secure email.
On Wednesday, May 28th, 2025 at
9:22 AM, Mike W5RKL via groups.io
<mikew5rkl@...> wrote:
Steve,
It quite possible one of the side band sockets has shorted
to melt the filament fusible link.
Mark needs to start at the side band sockets first. That where
the problem started.
If the power supply fuse blew when the TR4CW was powered up
then I would agree, a dim bulb test is warranted. However,
since
Mark clearly stated he tested the power supply with another
TR4
radio and it worked fine, using a dim bulb test is not
warranted
and will not point to the problem in his TR4CW radio.
73
Mike W5RKL
On 5/28/25 8:10 AM, Steve Wedge,
W1ES/4 via groups.io wrote:
It is likely that the centre contacting of
the bulb connector is touching something that¡¯s grounded.
It¡¯s crowded in that area!
Steve Wedge, W1ES
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a
banana.
On Wed, May 28, 2025 at 09:04, Mike W5RKL via groups.io <mikew5rkl@...>
wrote:
Mark,
I disagree using the dim bulb test.
You clearly said you tested your power supply with another
TR4C and it worked fine.
That test was enough to eliminate the power supply as the
source of your problem.
The RED indicator on the upper right corner of the front
panel is the "VFO" indicator
and it is not connected to the filament string like the
meter, dial, and side band bulbs
are. That indicator is a NE2-E neon bulb that's connected
across Q3's Emitter and Collector
indicating the TR4CW internal VFO is in use (see the TR4CW
schematic and manual).
Your problem started when you were messing with the side
band bulb sockets. That's
where you need to start troubleshooting.
Using the dim bulb test in series with the power supply
primary is not going to tell you
where your problem is within your TR4CW.
73
Mike W5RKL
On 5/28/25 5:35 AM, Mark
N2DMI via groups.io wrote:
I did some more reading about the dim bulb tester
and I agree that it is a good method to prevent my
filament fuse wire from opening and instead make a
light bulb glow! Now that I have a better
understanding on what it actually does I will look
into building one.
Thank you very much for your suggestion!
Mark
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And....measured out-of-circuit of course
Mark, N5KAE
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Yes, TR3 ~85 ohms each, for plate and S-meters
? ? ? ?TR4 ~200 ohms each, for plate and S-meters
73
Mark
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OOOOH!
I have a TR-4 and an early TR-4 opened up already.? I think I'll take some resistance measurements later today or possibly this weekend to confirm this.? Quick-n-easy, really...
Steve Wedge, W1ES
Time flies like an arrow.? Fruit flies like a banana.
Sent with secure email.
On Wednesday, May 28th, 2025 at 12:30 PM, n4buq <n4buq@...> wrote:
When you say "both" meters, you are referring to both the Ip and S meters, correct?
Thanks, Barry - N4BUQ Garey Barrel told me once that both TR3 meters were 85 ohms, and TR4-all were 200 ohms.? I have always found that to be true as well.? Not sure if that
has anything to do with this thread, but wanted to put in in there.? Hope I am not repeating someone else's post !
73
Mark
N5KAE
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*centre contact
I hate autocorrect sometimes...
Steve Wedge, W1ES
Time flies like an arrow.? Fruit flies like a banana.
Sent with secure email.
On Wednesday, May 28th, 2025 at 9:22 AM, Mike W5RKL via groups.io <mikew5rkl@...> wrote:
Steve,
It quite possible one of the side band sockets has shorted
to melt the filament fusible link.
Mark needs to start at the side band sockets first. That where
the problem started.
If the power supply fuse blew when the TR4CW was powered up
then I would agree, a dim bulb test is warranted. However, since
Mark clearly stated he tested the power supply with another TR4
radio and it worked fine, using a dim bulb test is not warranted
and will not point to the problem in his TR4CW radio.
73
Mike W5RKL
On 5/28/25 8:10 AM, Steve Wedge, W1ES/4
via groups.io wrote:
It is likely that the centre contacting of the
bulb connector is touching something that¡¯s grounded. It¡¯s
crowded in that area!
Steve Wedge, W1ES
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
On Wed, May 28, 2025 at 09:04, Mike W5RKL via groups.io <mikew5rkl@...>
wrote:
Mark,
I disagree using the dim bulb test.
You clearly said you tested your power supply with another TR4C
and it worked fine.
That test was enough to eliminate the power supply as the source
of your problem.
The RED indicator on the upper right corner of the front panel
is the "VFO" indicator
and it is not connected to the filament string like the meter,
dial, and side band bulbs
are. That indicator is a NE2-E neon bulb that's connected across
Q3's Emitter and Collector
indicating the TR4CW internal VFO is in use (see the TR4CW
schematic and manual).
Your problem started when you were messing with the side band
bulb sockets. That's
where you need to start troubleshooting.
Using the dim bulb test in series with the power supply primary
is not going to tell you
where your problem is within your TR4CW.
73
Mike W5RKL
On 5/28/25 5:35 AM, Mark N2DMI via
groups.io wrote:
I did some more reading about the dim bulb tester and I
agree that it is a good method to prevent my filament fuse
wire from opening and instead make a light bulb glow! Now
that I have a better understanding on what it actually does
I will look into building one.
Thank you very much for your suggestion!
Mark
|
Don't get me wrong, Mike.? I agree that a dim bulb tester is not the appropriate test equipment for this problem.? I would first do what you (I believe -- it's a long thread!) and others have suggested and run the TR-4 with no tubes in and check for shorts or high-resistance shorts in the filament circuit.? Current draw of a good AC-4 at 120 VAC input is around 400-500 mA.? A Variac with a 2A fuse and 2A capacity should be adequate to check a tubeless TR-4 running off an AC-4.? If you see significantly more current than 500 mA, you have a problem in the TR-4 (since the supply has been confirmed as good). A nicked wire touching a grounded part sounds like the issue to me because it seems to immediately blow the fuse, then later takes a couple of minutes to blow the fuse.? Further testing can be done by removing all the lamps AND tubes and testing the resistance across both legs of the 12 VAC power connection (power supply removed).
If you have a hipot tester you could try that.? The spark will be really obvious if it's intermittently touching something.
Steve Wedge, W1ES
Time flies like an arrow.? Fruit flies like a banana.
Sent with secure email.
On Wednesday, May 28th, 2025 at 9:22 AM, Mike W5RKL via groups.io <mikew5rkl@...> wrote:
Steve,
It quite possible one of the side band sockets has shorted
to melt the filament fusible link.
Mark needs to start at the side band sockets first. That where
the problem started.
If the power supply fuse blew when the TR4CW was powered up
then I would agree, a dim bulb test is warranted. However, since
Mark clearly stated he tested the power supply with another TR4
radio and it worked fine, using a dim bulb test is not warranted
and will not point to the problem in his TR4CW radio.
73
Mike W5RKL
On 5/28/25 8:10 AM, Steve Wedge, W1ES/4
via groups.io wrote:
It is likely that the centre contacting of the
bulb connector is touching something that¡¯s grounded. It¡¯s
crowded in that area!
Steve Wedge, W1ES
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
On Wed, May 28, 2025 at 09:04, Mike W5RKL via groups.io <mikew5rkl@...>
wrote:
Mark,
I disagree using the dim bulb test.
You clearly said you tested your power supply with another TR4C
and it worked fine.
That test was enough to eliminate the power supply as the source
of your problem.
The RED indicator on the upper right corner of the front panel
is the "VFO" indicator
and it is not connected to the filament string like the meter,
dial, and side band bulbs
are. That indicator is a NE2-E neon bulb that's connected across
Q3's Emitter and Collector
indicating the TR4CW internal VFO is in use (see the TR4CW
schematic and manual).
Your problem started when you were messing with the side band
bulb sockets. That's
where you need to start troubleshooting.
Using the dim bulb test in series with the power supply primary
is not going to tell you
where your problem is within your TR4CW.
73
Mike W5RKL
On 5/28/25 5:35 AM, Mark N2DMI via
groups.io wrote:
I did some more reading about the dim bulb tester and I
agree that it is a good method to prevent my filament fuse
wire from opening and instead make a light bulb glow! Now
that I have a better understanding on what it actually does
I will look into building one.
Thank you very much for your suggestion!
Mark
|
Re: Drake SPR-4 50 Khz IF and 50 Khz Filter alignment
I have already checked the voltage, only drops a 0. 1 volt in both receivers. I have also made an ocualr inspection in the solder joints of the capcitors you said; no cold o something strange . What I do not like are those two tamtalun capacitors they are prone to fail soon or later.
|
When you say "both" meters, you are referring to both the Ip and S meters, correct?
Thanks, Barry - N4BUQ
Garey Barrel told me once that both TR3 meters were 85 ohms, and TR4-all were 200 ohms.? I have always found that to be true as well.? Not sure if that
has anything to do with this thread, but wanted to put in in there.? Hope I am not repeating someone else's post !
73
Mark
N5KAE
|
Mark N2DMI
Jim Shorney
