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Re: T4XB & D104 poor sudio
A few decades ago I used one of these on my T4XC. ?Adjusted properly, it improved "punch" for poor band conditions while at the same time not adding distortion like some processors do.
On Monday, February 10, 2025 at 07:03:00 PM EST, Bill Losef via groups.io <w.losefsky@...> wrote:
This is what it look like:
On Monday, February 10, 2025 at 05:30:26 PM EST, Bill Leonard N0CU via groups.io <billincolo73@...> wrote:
Bill, which DX Engr amp are you referring to? ?Bill? N0CU On Mon, Feb 10, 2025, 3:13 PM Bill Losef via <w.losefsky=[email protected]> wrote:
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Re: T4XB & D104 poor sudio
Richard mentioned some interesting points. ?If you want to have some fun, tune around on 75M and listen to the groups that have high end radios (e.g. ?Flex, Elecraft, etc.) with Behringer (sp?) equalizers, studio microphones, etc. trying to get their audio to sound like an FM station, for all listeners. ?Sometimes they will even identify that they are in Studio A with acoustical foam on the walls, or just regular Studio B, hi hi. ?They will go on for hours making adjustments but if they just bought a Johnson Valiant or Ranger and a D-104 they would sound just as good if not better, and at a fraction of the cost. ?After listening to them for 5-10 minutes I generally reach my threshold of pain and turn the PTO. Please send flames off list. 73s
On Monday, February 10, 2025 at 04:40:28 PM EST, Richard Knoppow via groups.io <1oldlens1@...> wrote:
? ? Audio quality on SSB is always a problem. Both transmitters and receivers often have very limited response, IMO too limited. Why? Well one reason is misunderstanding the research done on intellibibility and articulation (not quit the same thing) over a period of decades. A lot of the earliest research was done by Bell Labs and later research by many organizations such as Armor Research, Harvard and MIT for military purposes. One thing that has been known for a very long time is that the human voice is not very efficient in its use of energy. It turns out that in the male voice (there has also been research on female voices) that most of the power is below about 250 Hz while the speech parts that contribute to intelligibility at mostly above about 1 Khz. The power is in the bass. So, if we have a power limited system, nearly always the case for radio or telephone, full bandwidth is very inefficient in its use of available power.? The simple solution is the reduce the bass and accentuate the treble. So, a microphone with limited frequency response and that tailored to reduce the lows and accentuate the highs, is one way of doing this. It is also very common to use electronic filters in the transmitter to limit the frequency response. ? ? Now, it turns out that in practice, where there is NO power limit or noise full range speech has superior intelligibility. However, for practical communication systems there is virtually always a limit on power and the presence of noise. Keep in mind that where there is no requirement for it the limiting of frequency response always damages intelligibility. This is one of the things that is missed when reading the research.? I have not discussed the compression of the dynamic range but that is also commonly done. Here again there has been a tremendous amount of research, and again, much of it mis-understood.? While it is possible to process speech to the point where it is no longer to identify individual voices and still maintain intelligibility it is again high-fidelity speech which has the best intelligibility scores in the absence of noise or power limits. So, in general the least that works is the most desirable. ? ? AT&T discovered long ago that excessive frequency response limiting made it difficult to recognize voices. For the telephone system some "naturalness" was necessary to make it acceptable. So the low limit was set at about 250 Hz and, to accomodate the limits of the telephone system, about 2750 Hz on the high side. Going higher where possible will improve articulation, the ability to understand speech sounds. The limits have been more or less adopted for SSB, typically 300 to 3000 Hz. On either end reduction will either reduce "naturalness" or reduce articulation. Both are very common in ham equipment and I have heard very severely limited signals on the air. Electronic filters with extensive menus are pretty common and to quote an engineer friend "anything adjustable is by definition out of adjustment". ? ? I am writing too much so will stop now. On 2/10/2025 1:01 PM, Paul N5NEN via groups.io wrote: > Richard. ? Yes, I should see the audio on a scope. ?Will do that. Yes > both side bands are affected and my reports are from several hams much > experienced with sideband who know my voice well. ?They would hear a > small change due to the mic as they hear me on other gear vintage and > new. ?Also I tried an electret element I built into a T-3 and has a bit > more (adjustable) output. ?With more gain it audio is still high pitched. >? ? so while I am enjoying using these radios that I might have had if I > were a ham while in college; I am just learning this hobby. ?All your > help is very welcome. Thanks. > -- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles WB6KBL SKCC 19998 |
Re: T4XB & D104 poor sudio
This is what it look like:
On Monday, February 10, 2025 at 05:30:26 PM EST, Bill Leonard N0CU via groups.io <billincolo73@...> wrote:
Bill, which DX Engr amp are you referring to? ?Bill? N0CU On Mon, Feb 10, 2025, 3:13 PM Bill Losef via <w.losefsky=[email protected]> wrote:
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Re: T4XB & D104 poor sudio
Bill, which DX Engr amp are you referring to? ?Bill? N0CU On Mon, Feb 10, 2025, 3:13 PM Bill Losef via <w.losefsky=[email protected]> wrote:
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Re: T4XB & D104 poor sudio
The narrow pinchy audio is I think part of the Drake internals. I am also following this as always interested in a specific microphone or mod that would open the? audio up a bit more. Those DX Engineering amps do make a difference as I have one and I get MUCH better audio reports using it. Bill N1WL
On Monday, February 10, 2025 at 04:01:44 PM EST, Paul N5NEN via groups.io <n5nen@...> wrote:
Richard. ? Yes, I should see the audio on a scope. ?Will do that. Yes both side bands are affected and my reports are from several hams much experienced with sideband who know my voice well. ?They would hear a small change due to the mic as they hear me on other gear vintage and new. ?Also I tried an electret element I built into a T-3 and has a bit more (adjustable) output. ?With more gain it audio is still high pitched.?
? so while I am enjoying using these radios that I might have had if I were a ham while in college; I am just learning this hobby. ?All your help is very welcome. Thanks.? |
Re: T4XB & D104 poor sudio
Audio quality on SSB is always a problem. Both transmitters and receivers often have very limited response, IMO too limited. Why? Well one reason is misunderstanding the research done on intellibibility and articulation (not quit the same thing) over a period of decades. A lot of the earliest research was done by Bell Labs and later research by many organizations such as Armor Research, Harvard and MIT for military purposes. One thing that has been known for a very long time is that the human voice is not very efficient in its use of energy. It turns out that in the male voice (there has also been research on female voices) that most of the power is below about 250 Hz while the speech parts that contribute to intelligibility at mostly above about 1 Khz. The power is in the bass. So, if we have a power limited system, nearly always the case for radio or telephone, full bandwidth is very inefficient in its use of available power. The simple solution is the reduce the bass and accentuate the treble. So, a microphone with limited frequency response and that tailored to reduce the lows and accentuate the highs, is one way of doing this. It is also very common to use electronic filters in the transmitter to limit the frequency response.
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Show quoted text
Now, it turns out that in practice, where there is NO power limit or noise full range speech has superior intelligibility. However, for practical communication systems there is virtually always a limit on power and the presence of noise. Keep in mind that where there is no requirement for it the limiting of frequency response always damages intelligibility. This is one of the things that is missed when reading the research. I have not discussed the compression of the dynamic range but that is also commonly done. Here again there has been a tremendous amount of research, and again, much of it mis-understood. While it is possible to process speech to the point where it is no longer to identify individual voices and still maintain intelligibility it is again high-fidelity speech which has the best intelligibility scores in the absence of noise or power limits. So, in general the least that works is the most desirable. AT&T discovered long ago that excessive frequency response limiting made it difficult to recognize voices. For the telephone system some "naturalness" was necessary to make it acceptable. So the low limit was set at about 250 Hz and, to accomodate the limits of the telephone system, about 2750 Hz on the high side. Going higher where possible will improve articulation, the ability to understand speech sounds. The limits have been more or less adopted for SSB, typically 300 to 3000 Hz. On either end reduction will either reduce "naturalness" or reduce articulation. Both are very common in ham equipment and I have heard very severely limited signals on the air. Electronic filters with extensive menus are pretty common and to quote an engineer friend "anything adjustable is by definition out of adjustment". I am writing too much so will stop now. On 2/10/2025 1:01 PM, Paul N5NEN via groups.io wrote:
Richard. ? Yes, I should see the audio on a scope. ?Will do that. Yes both side bands are affected and my reports are from several hams much experienced with sideband who know my voice well. ?They would hear a small change due to the mic as they hear me on other gear vintage and new. ?Also I tried an electret element I built into a T-3 and has a bit more (adjustable) output. ?With more gain it audio is still high pitched. --
Richard Knoppow Los Angeles WB6KBL SKCC 19998 |
Re: T4XB & D104 poor sudio
Richard. ? Yes, I should see the audio on a scope. ?Will do that. Yes both side bands are affected and my reports are from several hams much experienced with sideband who know my voice well. ?They would hear a small change due to the mic as they hear me on other gear vintage and new. ?Also I tried an electret element I built into a T-3 and has a bit more (adjustable) output. ?With more gain it audio is still high pitched.? ? so while I am enjoying using these radios that I might have had if I were a ham while in college; I am just learning this hobby. ?All your help is very welcome. Thanks.? |
Re: T4XB & D104 poor sudio
Try another microphone, not a D-104 or 444. Are the the same?
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Bad filter will affect only one sideband. If carrier oscillator is not centered one sideband will be shrill and the other muffled. Not both the same. Both of these mics are innerently shrill sounding. See the published frequency response curves to show you why. While the bass response of the D-104 can be increased somewhat by adding a series resistor of about half a meg to the mic line it will still have a sharp peak at about 3Khz, that is designed into it. The 444 has, if anything, an even sharper peak and rolled off bass. Supposed to increase intelligibility. If you are getting clipping just reduce the mic gain and see what happens. If your D-104 has an internal amplifier you are overloading the audio in the T4XB, these rigs are intended to work with standard level hi-Z microphones and have plenty of gain. The internal amplifier in the D-104 is intended to work with CB rigs that do not have enough mic gain. They also provide a better impedance match for the crystal element but is really not necessary with the Drake transmitter. The 444 is a magnetic mic and not sensitive to load impedance, but they have rolled off bass and a peaked high end and are shrill sounding. Try a fairly flat mic. Note that the ALC circuit should prevent occasional flat topping but does not take the place of a proper speech processor. Look at the signal on a HF scope and see what it going on. If its flat topping it should not be within a fairly wide range of input levels. Don't get led astray by worries about defective filters, they symptoms are wrong. I don't know why these mics work with the Swan, I am not very familiar with them but they will have different audio circuits. Check the output signal with a scope and see what you find. On 2/10/2025 10:13 AM, Paul N5NEN via groups.io wrote:
Reports on trial of 4B twins say audio seems clipped and missing lows. ?D104 works fine on my Swann and I tried my Sure 444 with the same result. High pitched and no lows. --
Richard Knoppow Los Angeles WB6KBL SKCC 19998 |
Re: T4XB & D104 poor sudio
Barry - N4BUQ
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Re: T4XB & D104 poor sudio
Sounds like a crystal filter has drifted or a carrier oscillator needs adjustment.
On Monday, February 10, 2025 at 01:13:48 PM EST, Paul N5NEN via groups.io <n5nen@...> wrote:
Reports on trial of 4B twins say audio seems clipped and missing lows. ?D104 works fine on my Swann and I tried my Sure 444 with the same result. High pitched and no lows.?
? The result is same on 80, 40, 20. So I need to know what to look for inside. ? ? Could the carrier balance be at fault? ?No one has reported hearing carrier, but that may not be a good test. ?I have already been instructed on setting carrier but can¡¯t trust my understanding and skill to do that job. ?Nothing else comes to my mind as a cause. ?Overall the twins seem to be loading well and getting signal out there. Just sounds bad.? paul N5nen? |
T4XB & D104 poor sudio
Reports on trial of 4B twins say audio seems clipped and missing lows. ?D104 works fine on my Swann and I tried my Sure 444 with the same result. High pitched and no lows.? ? The result is same on 80, 40, 20. So I need to know what to look for inside. ? ? Could the carrier balance be at fault? ?No one has reported hearing carrier, but that may not be a good test. ?I have already been instructed on setting carrier but can¡¯t trust my understanding and skill to do that job. ?Nothing else comes to my mind as a cause. ?Overall the twins seem to be loading well and getting signal out there. Just sounds bad.? paul N5nen? |
L-4B Blower Wheels
I have in process a second lot of replacement blower wheels for the L-4B amplifier.? ?These are the exact same blower wheels made by Torrington for Drake, with one exception.? ? The blower wheels used by Drake have a hub (motor shaft) diameter of 0.25".? ?The ones that I have located have a hub diameter of 0.125".? ?I am having these machined out to 0.25" making sure that concentricity and perpendicularity are maintained to prevent an out-of-balance condition/vibration.? ?
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My cost has increased slightly from last year.? The cost will be $42, shipped US Postal Service.? ? If you are interested in one, please email me at markhh@....? ?
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73, Mark NO8J |
Re: DRAKE USERS NET Update - 9 February 2025
Bill, Yes I have managed to get in a few times, but I dont?remember which net controls I have worked.? I am about 3/4 of a mile from the water's edge here on the Gulf of America in Mississippi so its a haul to make it up north sometimes.? I will keep trying. Thanks for your kind words. 73, Ed KG5UN On Sun, Feb 9, 2025 at 8:36?PM William Shadid via <w9mxq=[email protected]> wrote:
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Re: DRAKE USERS NET Update - 9 February 2025
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýWilliam ¨C This looks to be a private message, but to the wrong person.? I AM a ham, and a member of Drake-Radio, but not Ed.? I think a note to Evan arrived in my inbox, as well. No worries, however Cheers, and 73 Terry K7WLD Wenatchee, WA ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of William Shadid
Sent: Sunday, February 9, 2025 6:37 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [DRAKE-RADIO] DRAKE USERS NET Update - 9 February 2025 ? Ed, ? Sorry we missed you. Your call seems familiar - have you checked in before? If so, who was Net Control, if you remember? If there is a fellow out of the five if us that you hear well we can perhaps make sure that is the person that makes a separate call during each net. Today, I had Evan, K9SQG, in Ohio, make some calls on my behalf. I am in the Milwaukee area.? ? ? If you continue to have problems, try calling toward the end of the net when there are fewer callers for you to compete with. While sometimes things go long, generally we are nearly done at about 45 to 50 minutes into the hour (3:45, or so, for you and me). ? Looking forward to seeing you get through to the net - or to meeting you on the HF bands another time ? On a side note, I was looking at your QRZ page. My hat is off to you for your service as a Fire Fighter. We are all in your debt. Thank you - enjoy your retirement. ? 73, ? -Bill Shadid, W9MXQ |
Re: DRAKE USERS NET Update - 9 February 2025
Ed,
?
Sorry we missed you. Your call seems familiar - have you checked in before? If so, who was Net Control, if you remember? If there is a fellow out of the five if us that you hear well we can perhaps make sure that is the person that makes a separate call during each net. Today, I had Evan, K9SQG, in Ohio, make some calls on my behalf. I am in the Milwaukee area.? ?
?
If you continue to have problems, try calling toward the end of the net when there are fewer callers for you to compete with. While sometimes things go long, generally we are nearly done at about 45 to 50 minutes into the hour (3:45, or so, for you and me).
?
Looking forward to seeing you get through to the net - or to meeting you on the HF bands another time
?
On a side note, I was looking at your QRZ page. My hat is off to you for your service as a Fire Fighter. We are all in your debt. Thank you - enjoy your retirement.
?
73,
?
-Bill Shadid, W9MXQ |
a smidgeon off frequency
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýI overbought something that I now have surplus of right now, so I am trying to get them into the hands of needy folks given their short supply---NO; NOT EGGS! ? ? 5500mAh Battery for iPhone SE 2016 1st Gen, New 0 Cycle SAFE High-Capacity Lithium Polymer Battery Replacement for iPhone SE Models A1662, A1723, A1724 with Complete Professional Repair Tools Kit: Pentalobe Screwdriver, Triangle opening tool,Tri-point Screwdriver, Phillips screwdriver, Adhesive Strip, Metal Tweezer, Ejection Pin, Suction cup, Spudger/Spreader No abuse, dampness, smoking, pets.??????? NEVER USED------Excellent! Have two complete boxed kits to sell!????? $15.00 / door to door¡no xtra S/H! SEE ALL OTHER QTH NU2W ADS----NO PAYPAL Please! ? ? TU and 73 ? ? STAY SAFE AND STAY WELL! ? Respectfully, NJ DOH Licensed EMT;? PHTLS, AMLS, PHPEC Millenium EMS ARC N.E. BioMedical Services ARC N.E. Disaster Cycle Services ? |
Re: DRAKE USERS NET Update - 9 February 2025
Bill, I thought the net went smoothly! ?Good job on the preamble. 73, Evan
On Sunday, February 9, 2025 at 05:07:46 PM EST, William Shadid <w9mxq@...> wrote:
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Today we had 36 check-ins to the Drake Users Net. Conditions became quite good as the net progressed.
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Following are the radios used by Check-In Stations:?
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TWINS (All Varieties) = 4
TR-3 = None
TR-4 (All Varieties) = 7
TR5 = 3
TR7 =7
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Net Control Station next week will be Evan K9SQG.?
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73,
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Bill, W9MXQ
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