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Linux vs. DOS
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Andrew Werby
Jon Elson <jmelson@...> wrote:
Andrew Werby wrote: From: Andrew Werby <drewid@...>I would suggest EMC. It runs under Linux, but Linux offers total MSDOS file system compatibility. You can run text-based DOS programs in an emulator window, as well as read and write DOS floppies directly in Linux. In fact, if you mount a DOS floppy before starting EMC (or later, using another window) you could execute a G-code program directly off the floppy, if you wanted to. The reason DOS is unacceptable, is that it is NOT a real-time environment. Yes, it seems pretty real time to us slow humans, but for a motion control system with a 1 KHz servo update rate (or better) DOS is most emphatically NOT real-time. You would have to place hooks on every interrupt entry point and write your own real-time scheduler to get guaranteed priority for the realtime task. But, the worst part is that the DOS environment is not secure! Any haywire program could overwrite the motion control code or data areas, and cause a hazardous crash! I sure wouldn't use such a system! [Oh. I really don't know anything about Linux, but it seems intimidating. All the problems with "kernels", whatever they are, seem like they would take over my life. I read some previous discussion here on the fine points of running Linux , and I didn't understand thing one. Is there no alternative? Does NT run in real time? Has anybody built a graphical user interface for Linux that makes it more user-friendly? Is there a Linux for Dummies?] See my page at : and For EMC itself, see : The software is available for download from the web. The only thing it sounds like you'd need to buy would be the Servo-to-Go card, and maybe a rack of solid-state relays to drive the auxilliary stuff. [Would that be better than leaving the old relays in place? Also, can you tell me why there's a strong smell of methyl mercaptans in the mill's control box? If I didn't know better, I'd swear it was leaking natural gas...] Servo-to-Go is at : If you have any questions, feel free to email me. Jon [If you'd rather, we could take this off-list, but it seemed we were still discussing things of general interest, so I'm replying in "public". The 8 axis Servo-to go card sounds interesting at $888 - it certainly beats paying $1500 per axis. They mention running NT in conjunction with their card, and something about how it (and DOS) can be induced not to interrupt- do you know anything about this? They also talk about writing your own algorithms, though- so I'm not sure how hard this would be. ] Andrew Werby Andrew Werby - United Artworks Sculpture, Jewelry, and Other Art Stuff |
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On Sat, 29 May 1999 12:16:11 +0100, you wrote:
Andrew,From: Andrew Werby <drewid@...> Contary to popular opinion the Ahha controllers can now control servo's. As you already have a working controller you should be able to hook up to your existing servo amps and save the cost of a servo card. I went this way with my conversion as with all the help I received from the UK agent for Ahha it made it quick and painless, especially for someone like myself who is not capable of working these thing out for himself. Added to the fact that I needed this machine up and working to earn a living I didn't have the time to experiment. In fact from start to actually getting the machine under power took less than 5 hours. I don't believe that Ahha web site has been updated for quite a while but the servo work is actually being carried out by the Uk agents, Eagland Machine Tools. They have a web site at www.eagland.co.uk Regards, John Stevenson Nottingham, England |
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Jon Elson
Andrew Werby wrote:
[Oh. I really don't know anything about Linux, but it seems intimidating.Well, there is somewhat of a learning curve, and a fair amount of work to set up the system for the first time. But when you get down to running the machine, it really works quite reliably, with essentially no further attention. The kernel is the basic center of the operating system. If you don't like the way your Win-NT is configured, you are pretty well out of luck. If you don't like the configuration of your linux kernel, you can edit the configuration (graphically) and re-compile. It takes less than 30 minutes on a Pentium. It would be a simple install, except for the real-time patch. Apparently somebody is selling a CD with a real-time patched RedHat Linux that will install directly, without you having to install the patch. I should note there are people running Linux that have had their machines up for YEARS without rebooting. I'll also note that once I got the hardware all stable, I have had no crashes with Linux. I have had earlier versions of the EMC program that malfunctioned or hung up. The current version appears to be ROCK SOLID! I read some previous discussion here on the fine pointsNT is not a real time system. There are real-time extensions to NT, but they didn't work as well as the people at NIST wanted, and had a $2000 per machine license, I think. Has anybody built a graphical userOf course! There are several, including a windows-like environment. I'm using X windows, and it is fine for what I'm doing. This is all on the CD. Is there a Linux forI've heard of such a thing. You certainly need to at least get a book on using the Unix user environment, or specifically Linux. Probably any Barnes&Noble or B. Dalton's has such books. [Would that be better than leaving the old relays in place?The version of EMC I'm using sends all the auxilliary control signals out the printer port. For the safety of your PC, if not yourself, it is pretty wise to use opto isolators. They aren't too expensive. A Grayhill card and 5 or 6 opto-relays will cost about $50. These are compatible with the Opto-22 modules, just a lot cheaper. You will likely cobble together some combination of opto-relays and the existing relays to run things. The machine tools I've seen seem to run most of the control stuff off 110 Volts. The opto-relays are for pretty small loads, up to 5 Amps or so. So, you often use the opto-relays to control the coils of the bigger relays, especially for the spindle motor. Also, can youHmm, sounds like my fireplace. Whenever it gets humid, the fireplace smells like natural gas. My wife was always worried the house was going to blow up. (It wasn't that strong, just detectable.) Well, we finally had the gas log disconnected, and the smell still shows up under humid conditions. All I can figure is some rainwater gets inside the thing, and seeps into crevices, breeding anaerobic bacteria. This is the same thing that makes coolant sumps stink, especially on Monday morning, after the plant has been shut down and sealed over the weekend. Does the machine have a coolant sump? If so, the sump or anyplace stray coolant may have settled could be causing the smell. Also, I';ll bet you're smelling H2S, not CH3SH (methyl mercaptan). They smell somewhat alike (note the chemical similarity) and I think the mercaptan is only produced under high temp, pressure or both, like in an oil well. [If you'd rather, we could take this off-list, but it seemed we were stillWell, I don't think STG really has any software that does true real-time control under NT or DOS. They do have some DOS demos, but they are just loops, not real time. Yes, initially, I didn't want to go through the learning curve of Linux, but EMC showed REAL promise, even 18 months ago. I certainly couldn't find any true servo package (from the ground up) that I could afford. And, the idea of having servos controlled by step pulses from a program that thinks it is driving steppers soulds almost worse than just using steppers (which I hate, in this application). I couldn't be more happy now with EMC. I did go through a LOT of hassle, but I think the way has been cleared for those that follow. Jon |
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Matt Shaver
Andrew Werby wrote:1. If you have the brains to contemplate retrofitting a servo controlled cnc mill, do machine work as a hobby, and subscribe to this newsgroup, then you have enough brains to deal with Linux. It looks really bad going into it, but once you get over the initial hump in the learning curve it's not bad at all. In fact Linux is becoming more and more popular all the time, so unless you're already retired, there's more than a small chance you're going to have some contact with it in the future if you work with or around computers for a living. There's no time like the present to get up to speed. By the way, DOS has a kernel too. It is found in two hidden files in the root directory of the boot disk called MSDOS.SYS and IO.SYS. There doesn't seem to be a /dos/src directory though... One difference between the two systems is that support for accessory hardware devices is handled in DOS by loading device drivers in the CONFIG.SYS file with a line such as DEVICE=C:\MYDEVICE.SYS. In Linux this support is provided by including the code in the kernel which means that the kernel is re-compiled to add support for new hardware. In truth, Linux also has loadable modules as well, but they are optional. Also, in Linux, there are directories full of files that perform the function of DOS's AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS. 2. Linux is a much more reliable OS (doesn't lock up, get weird, or give you the "blue screen of death") than Win95/98 or NT and the only alternatives for a real time control application are systems like QNX and LynxOS which are specifically meant for real time control. They are expensive and there is a lot of debate (and I mean among guys with PhD behind their names) on the RTLinux mailing list about whether there is any real advantage to these systems over RTL. 3. All the inexpensive control programs that folks talk about on RCM and this list such as DanCAM, MaxNC, Stepster, etc. are only for use with stepper motor systems. This is to say that they output axis motion commands in the form of step and direction signals. You would be much better off to keep your existing servo motors, amps, and encoders due to their higher performance. This leaves alternatives like Lighthouse Software (big $), Delta-Tau (MEGA $), Bestsoft (no one can seem to get tech support), or a commercial control such as Centroid or Fanuc, or ... This is the gap that the EMC fills. 4. See my previous, very long post, for comments on NT and real time. 5. Caldera's latest version of OpenLinux has a graphical install and comes with a nice window manager called KDE (which I use on my Red Hat Linux system as well). You can download KDE from .The only problem is that the EMC doesn't run under the newer 2.2 version of the kernel yet, so you'll need to stick with Red Hat 5.2 (which uses the 2.0.36 version of the kernel) for the moment. The installation isn't as bad as you think, and you'll reduce your problems a lot if you pick hardware from the compatibility list you can find at l . 6. Yes, I think there is a Linux for Dummies book, but there is also a lot of documentation that comes with the boxed version of Red Hat Linux. There is a printed installation manual and many helpful files in /usr/doc once you get it up and running. In fact the online documentation on networking goes into some information on how Microsoft's networking scheme works, and this helped me solve some Win 95 problems I had been having! There is also the Linux Documentation Project at . [Would that be better than leaving the old relays in place? Also, can youYou'll need most, if not all of the existing electrical gear in your control to run thing like the spindle, coolant pumps, etc. The solid state relays that Jon refers to are simply an interface between the TTL level world of the computer and the coils of the power relays you are talking about which are probably actuated by 24 or 110 volt signals. You really need to understand how you present system works before you attempt to change it. Are their any schematics or other documentation like a maintenance manual that came with the machine, or which you could get? These will be INVALUABLE to you when you go to rewire things! I'll venture a guess that the smell is transformer varnish cooking. [If you'd rather, we could take this off-list, but it seemed we were stillWhat they are talking about are real time extensions to NT written by Venturcom and other third party developers. I don't believe they have as good a level of performance as RTLinux, probably because the developers didn't have access to all the source code for the NT. In addition these extensions cost a lot of money for the developers kit, plus a per machine runtime license, in addition to the cost of NT itself. As for writing your own algorithms, if you can do that, well, let's just say you don't need any of my advice. I'm happy to see this discussion stay on the list as I think there is a subset of subscribers who is interested in this sort of thing. As I've said before, if you need any help in getting the EMC up and running, don't hesitate to call or write. Matt Shaver (410) 521-3715 mshaver@... |
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Tim Goldstein
Matt
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Thank you for your instruction sheet on setting up the rt patch and installing EMC. With your help I now seem to have rtlinux running. I seem to be having a problem with the EMC part though. I followed your directions and when I execute run.64step378 I get a message "Permission Denied". Also, if I try run.stepper I see on the command line emc start, but then I get an error message that the stepper module file does not exist. When I look under the plat directory I have the rtlinux, linux2.0.36, and if I remember correctly the documentation directory, but they are all empty. Is it possible that I got a bad .tgz file or are the files for these directories in a separate download. Appreciate all the help. Tim [Denver, CO] -----Original Message----- |
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Matt Shaver
Thank you for your instruction sheet on setting up the rt patch andbut then I get an error message that the stepper module file does not exist.if I remember correctly the documentation directory, but they are all empty.Is it possible that I got a bad .tgz file or are the files for theseThe permission denied problem can be cured by doing: cd /usr/local/nist/emc chmod 777 run.64step378 Do a 'man chmod' for more info on this command, but essentially you are giving yourself permission to execute this script file. The reason I supplied this script is that the scripts (like run.stepper) that come with the distribution aren't correct in several respects: 1. They don't load the schedule module. 2. The directories for the RT modules are wrong. Start up two terminal windows, cd to /usr/local/nist/emc and do 'less run.64step378' in one and 'less run.stepper' in the other. Scroll through the files and compare the lines that start with: insmod ... You'll see the differences right away. If you still have trouble with run.64step378 once you change the file permissions as above then check to make sure that the files referenced by the insmod lines actually exist. By the way, you need to be logged in as root to run the EMC program. If you have any other problems just call or write. If it works I'd love to hear about that as well... Matt Shaver (410) 521-3715 mshaver@... |
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Tim Goldstein
Matt,
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Your Linux wizardry again got me over a hump and now I have run smack into another one. the chmod command took care of the permissions and I must have had a bad download as I downloaded the emc program again and reinstalled it and now I have files in all of the directories. My new problem is that when I execute run.64step378 I get a number of "command not found" errors. In poking through the run.64step378 file it looks like the problem is with the insmod command. If I try insmod at a command line I also get "command not found" and in searching the drive I find a bunch of copies of insmod.1 (the man page for insmod), but I cant find the actual file. Is there a module I may have missed installing? Thanks again. Tim [Denver, CO] The permission denied problem can be cured by doing: |
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Matt Shaver
My new problem is that when I execute run.64step378 I get a number ofOK: 1. You must be logged in as root to use insmod. 2. The insmod program lives at /sbin/insmod so make sure this file exists (insmod is part of Linux itself, not the EMC). 3. If the insmod program exists then try doing a '/sbin/insmod' from the command prompt. When insmod is run without any arguments you should get a message like "Usage:..." then a detailed syntax diagram and brief instructions. Here the troubleshooting flowchart forks: 4a. If '/sbin/insmod' works, but 'insmod' by itself doesn't then the /sbin directory isn't in your path. Check this by entering 'echo $PATH' at the prompt and your path will be displayed. It might look like "/do/re/mi:/sbin:/fa/so/la:...". If /sbin isn't there you can either add it in your .bash_profile file in the /root directory (if you look at this and it's not self evident how to do this, just let me know). I'm not sure where the PATH is set initially, but if this is the problem I'll research it further and figure out what to do. Many initialization files reside in /etc. Another option would be to edit run.64step378 and change the lines that start with insmod to /sbin/insmod. 4b. If /sbin/insmod doesn't exist then my initial reaction is to say something along the lines of "Uh, like wow man, I dunno". Since this isn't very helpful I think that you should (from a terminal window in X) do 'cd /usr/src/linux' and then 'make xconfig'. Look in the "Loadable module support" section and be sure that all three items in there are set to "y". Also, and I'm stretching it here, check in the "General setup" section and see if "Support for a.out binaries" and "Support for ELF binaries" are set to "y" as well. If you change any of this you'll need to save the changes and continue on with 'make dep', 'make clean', 'make zlmage', 'make modules', 'make modules-install', and finally 'cp arch/i386/boot/zImage /boot/vmlinuz'. I don't know whether this process actually creates the /sbin/insmod file when loadable module support is enabled, or not, but it's all I can think of right now. One other thing, when you installed Red Hat 5.2 did you pick "Everything" from the list of stuff to install, or did you use the "Workstation" option or ... I always pick the "Custom" choice and then install "Everything", although I can't imagine that insmod is optional in any case as it's pretty important. Let me know what happens ASAP and I'll try to get you going. Thanks, Matt Shaver (410) 521-3715 |
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Tim Goldstein
Well, I played around a little more and applied the Microsoft trick (shut
down and reboot) and booted back to the original kernel (I left it as an option in Lilo along with an option to boot to Windows 95). I tried running insmod and it worked as it should. I then booted to the rtlinux kernel and now it seems that I can issue insmod from the command line and it works. Unfortunately, when I try ./run.64step378 I still get a number of "command not found" errors. Is there a way to put in an echo or something in the run.64step378 file so I can get an idea what the commands are that can't be found. Again, thanks for all your help. Tim [Denver, CO] |
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Matt Shaver
Well, I played around a little more and applied the Microsoft trick (shutrunning insmod and it worked as it should. I then booted to the rtlinux kerneland now it seems that I can issue insmod from the command line and it works."command not found" errors. Is there a way to put in an echo or something in thebe found.Hey, quit gettin' ahead of me here! ;) 1. Just put in lines like: echo "your_message_goes_here" This is done a lot in the run.64step378 file already. 2. Make sure that the line: #!/bin/csh -f is the very FIRST line in the file (no blank lines above)! 3. Check the plat/linux_2_0_36/bin/ directory to see that mmio, mmtask, and xemc are there. 4. Check that the path to the EMC code is /usr/local/nist/emc. Note that 'cd /usr/local/nist/emc' is on of the first lines in run.64step378. I'm here till late, so you can even call if you want. Matt (410) 521-3715 |
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Jon Elson
Tim Goldstein wrote:
From: "Tim Goldstein" <timg@...>Right. You have to do a chmod o+x {filename} to set the file to be executable. If you've already done that, then you need to be root, or give root privledges to the kernel module that becomes the real-time component of EMC. Also, if I try run.stepper I see on the command line emc start, butAs I understand the current distribution, the stepper code is only built if you do something in the makefile to enable the stepper version. This is temporary. Jon |
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Tim Goldstein
Jon,
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Thanks for the chmod o+x command. Matt gave me the chmod 777 command and that took care of the permissions problem on the script file, but I ended up having to create a new copy and use the o+x switch to make it executable. Tim [Denver, CO] -----Original Message----- |
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Tim Goldstein
Matt,
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Thanks again for your kindness in helping. Here is where I am at now. The problem was that I removed the !/bin/csh -f line as I was originally getting a message about invalid parameter and the csh parameter list would appear. So, I figured the line was commented out so that removing it shouldn't hurt and that error went away. Silly me!!. I tried to put the line back in and the original error returned even when I copy and pasted it out of the run.stepper file (which produces plenty of errors, just not the csh error). I ended up opening the run.stepper file for edit and deleting all except the first line and saving it as run.mystepper in the /usr/local/nist/emc directory and then running "chmod o+x run.mystepper" command that Jon gave me. Now I could execute run.mystepper with out any errors so I opened it for edit and copy and pasted all of the run.64step378 file into it except for the first line that I had from the run.stepper file. So, here is where I am now.: I boot up and go to a terminal window in X and issue lsmod I see 2 modules, one for the network card and another that is a 4 digit number that starts with 8 and I can't remember the rest. Next I switch to /usr/local/nist/emc and enter the command ./run.mystepper This seems to start out fine and I see starting emc and then installing motion module. Then I get the following error message: segmentation fault rmmod: steppermod: devise or resource busy rmmod: rtl_sched is in use And that is where it leaves me. If I then enter lsmod I see steppermod and rtl_sched in the list with the previous 2 entries. steppermod is marked as [uninitialized]. If I try rmmod manually, I get the error noted above. Any ideas of what I should try now. Thanks again, Tim [Denver, CO] -----Original Message----- |
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Matt Shaver
So, here is where I am now.:modules, one for the network card and another that is a 4 digit number that starts./run.mystepper This seems to start out fine and I see starting emc and then installingrmmod manually, I get the error noted above.OK, let's reboot to get rid of all the installed modules, etc. and do this by hand rather that by script. As user root from a terminal window in X do: cd /usr/local/nist/emc insmod -v /usr/src/rtl/modules/rtl_sched insmod -v /usr/local/nist/emc/plat/rtlinux_09J/lib/steppermod.o SHMEM_BASE_ADDRESS=0x3F00000 PARPORT_IO_ADDRESS=0x378 plat/linux_2_0_36/bin/mmio -ini 64stepper.ini & plat/linux_2_0_36/bin/mmtask -ini 64stepper.ini & plat/linux_2_0_36/bin/xemc -ini 64stepper.ini The long commands may wrap to the next line in the terminal window, that's OK, just hit ENTER at the end. This should get the EMC started without all the fancy error checking stuff in that script file. Let me know if you get any errors from this procedure. You are not the only guy to have trouble with these script files, although I can't figure out what the problems are caused by. Thanks, Matt P.S. If you want to call today (Memorial Day), I'm around and not that busy, so if you need to do that it's OK. (410) 521-3715 |
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Matt Shaver
From: "Matt Shaver" <mshaver@...>that's OK, just hit ENTER at the end.In fact this command wrapped in my e-mail, it's really one long command! Matt |
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Tim Goldstein
Matt,
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I tried manually entering as you suggest and what is happening is I get a "segmentation fault" error message when I enter the line "insmod -v /usr/local/nist/emc/plat/rtlinux_09J/lib/steppermod.o SHMEM_BASE_ADDRESS=0x3F00000 PARPORT_IO_ADDRESS=0x378" If I do a lsmod I see steppermod as used by [uninitialized] and stl_sched as used by steppermod just like from the script. I have to do some work around the house to keep the better half happy, but if you will be at the number listed in your message in the early evening I will try giving you a call. Thanks, Tim [Denver, CO] -----Original Message----- |
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Matt Shaver
I tried manually entering as you suggest and what is happening is I get aRemember that if your machine has other than 64MB of RAM you'll need to change the 0x3F00000 to match your system: 0x0F00000 for 16MB systems 0x1F00000 for 32MB systems 0x2F00000 for 48MB systems 0x3F00000 for 64MB systems 0x4F00000 for 80MB systems 0x5F00000 for 96MB systems 0x6F00000 for 112MB systems 0x7F00000 for 128MB systems etc... Note: The table of values I provided in a previous post was WRONG with respect to 16MB and 32MB systems! If I do a lsmod I see steppermod as used by [uninitialized] and stl_schedas used by steppermod just like from the script.You'll need to rmmod them to try again, and if you can't get them to go away you'll need to reboot to start over. I have to do some work around the house to keep the better half happy,but if you will be at the number listed in your message in the early eveningI will try giving you a call.In between your messages I've been outside mowing, trimming, and shoveling mulch, so I know what you mean. My wife also likes steamed crabs so I might run out get her a dozen, although on Memorial Day they're going to gig me for $20/dozen for smalls (should be $8-$12/dozen here in Baltimore on a regular day). Thanks, Matt 410) 521-3715 |
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Tim Goldstein
Oh my gosh!!! XEmc came up and I moved the table in manual mode!!!!
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The error seemed to be in the entry for the memory. I have 32 MB in the machine and had it set for 0x2F00000. As soon as I changed it to 0x1F00000 in both run.mystepper and in the 64stepper.ini files I was able to get it to start. On to my next problem. I am wired to different outputs than emc defaults to. What file do I need to edit to get the correct axis to move? I am wired as follows: Step Direction X axis D0 D4 Y axis D1 D5 Z axis D2 D6 All limit switches ganged on S6 I am so excited to at least see the table move even if it is not all axis's or in the correct direction. I couldn't have gotten this far without your help. Thanks, Tim [Denver, CO] -----Original Message----- |
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Matt Shaver
From: "Tim Goldstein" <timg@...>Gee, I didn't know you had hardware. I thought you were just checking out the GUI. This is great! The error seemed to be in the entry for the memory. I have 32 MB in the0x1F00000 in both run.mystepper and in the 64stepper.ini files I was able to get itto start.Sorry, my fault there I'm afraid. On to my next problem. I am wired to different outputs than emc defaultsto. What file do I need to edit to get the correct axis to move? I am wiredas follows:Well, there are of course two approaches to this. One of them involves a soldering iron... I'm not a programmer by any stretch of the imagination, and I don't think this is in the .ini file. Give me a little while to dig through the EMC source directories here and I'll get back to you. I just cooked some burgers on the grill, and I'm going to eat a few and think about this. It's probably in some file called parport.h or stepper.c, or something like that. I can imagine it involves some changes that we can do without involving the software folks such as just changing a few numbers. I am so excited to at least see the table move even if it is not allaxis's or in the correct direction. I couldn't have gotten this far without yourAmazin', ain't it. |
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Tim Goldstein
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-----Original Message----- I am running a Shoptask machine with some Superior 550 in/oz bi-polar steppers on each axis. I use one of Dan Mauch's 5 amp controllers and power the CNC stuff from a 24 VDC 20 amp surplus power supply. I have been running it from DeskNC DOS version. I also have DeskNC Win95 , DanCAD, and Stepster all set up on the system just to see what I like. Of the group of software products DeskNC DOS seems to be the most stable. I became interested in a program that would provide G42 offset support as the Vector (the CAD/CAM product I am using) is designed to output it's G-code using offsets. So, with all the software I currently have I must go in and manually draw offset paths and then remove the G42 and G40 command from the code. A big pain, but workable. I was considering MaxNC, but with all the talk about EMC on this list I though I would give it a try before shelling out some more $$$ for this hobby. Sorry, my fault there I'm afraid.Not a big deal. Without your help I still would have been mucking around trying to get the real time patch in place. I would very much prefer if we can find a way to get it reconfigured in the software as all the other programs I have installed are configured for this particular setup. This particular configuration is what is specified for DanCAD which to my taste is better documented in how to interface the controller to the parallel port than any of the other software I have seen. Amazin', ain't it.I'll agree with that. Time for me to cook some burgers now. I'll check back to see if you found anything on setting up the parallel port. Thanks, Tim [Denver, CO] |
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