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Rhino, Was:vector's learning curve
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The problem is not the lack of a tutorial (I am working through the
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level 1 tutorial and have already completed the ones in the help menu), but all the concepts and controls that need to be learned. I would say that so far it has about 3 times the number of commands that you use regularly compared to Vector. Not that it is bad, just much more to master before you can become productive. If you have some good tutorial sites why don't you post them. I know there are some people on the list that got the Rhino/Visual mill combo deal so there are a few beginners other than me. Tim [Denver CO] -----Original Message----- |
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Ian W. Wright
HI Tim,
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RhinoCad is very similar to Autocad in that it uses all the same commands and techniques. So, any tutorial on Autocad or other 'standard' Cad system will be helpful. Rhino has an advantage over Autocad in that it 'automatically' produces rendered 3D images but, for me, it has the great disadvantage that all its commands need to be entered in full - like 'circle' (to draw a circle) rather than just the 'c' of Autocad. I would recommend that you try to learn to use Rhino from the command line - just type the commands from the keyboard - rather than using the mouse all the time - its very much quicker and easier when you get used to it. Best wishes, Ian -- Ian W. Wright Sheffield, UK The following added for automatic email harvesters! abuse@... abuse@... abuse@... abuse@... UCE@... abuse@... abuse@... ----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Goldstein" <timg@...> To: <CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@...> Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 5:10 AM Subject: RE: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Rhino, Was:vector's learning curve The problem is not the lack of a tutorial (I am working through the |
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Andrew Werby
Message: 4
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Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:00:16 -0000 From: "Ian W. Wright" <Ian@...> Subject: Re: Rhino, Was:vector's learning curve HI Tim, RhinoCad is very similar to Autocad in that it uses all the same commands and techniques. So, any tutorial on Autocad or other 'standard' Cad system will be helpful. Rhino has an advantage over Autocad in that it 'automatically' produces rendered 3D images but, for me, it has the great disadvantage that all its commands need to be entered in full - like 'circle' (to draw a circle) rather than just the 'c' of Autocad. [In Rhino, you can issue the "Circle" command by typing "ci" and then hitting the Tab key. Most typed-in commands can be shortcut this way, as long as they are unambiguous. But Rhino has at least eight ways of constructing a circle: the Circle command does the centerpoint/radius type, but you can also choose diameter, 3 points, around curve, tangent tangent radius, tangent tangent tangent, vertical center radius, and vertical diameter. ] I would recommend that you try to learn to use Rhino from the command line - just type the commands from the keyboard - rather than using the mouse all the time - its very much quicker and easier when you get used to it. Best wishes, Ian -- Ian W. Wright Sheffield, UK [Yes, that can certainly speed things up. If you use certain commands often, you can also set up shortcut keys to invoke them, using the Tools/options/aliases dialogue.] Andrew Werby www.computersculpture.com ----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Goldstein" <timg@...> To: <CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@...> Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 5:10 AM Subject: RE: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Rhino, Was:vector's learning curve The problem is not the lack of a tutorial (I am working through the[For Rhino tutorials, try , , and has an "introduction".] - Andrew |
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What you are both doing is pointing out exactly why Vector is an easier
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program to learn. I am not saying that Rhino is not worth learning as it is VERY powerful, but it is also very complex. Most computer users are now accustom to working in Windows with the mouse, toolbars, and menus. For the majority of users learning command line is about equal to cleaning out the cats litter pan. Some one may have to do it, but they would be much happier if it is not them. Vector uses these very familiar methods that are common in most non-CAD windows programs without the command line entry and abstract concepts that are common in Autocad style systems. I do agree that the command line can be very fast, but it normally requires you to use the same program frequently to remember all the syntax and short cuts. When you look at the majority of productivity programs in the world today that command line paradigm was dropped long ago as it just never was successful for the casual user. So, I sit by my contention. Vector is an easy to learn and use CAD/CAM program. While it is very capable even in the NURBS version it is not as powerful as Rhino. That is the reason I am working at becoming a Rhino user. Can I do the vast majority of what I need in Vector?Certainly. I have been able to do all that I wanted with only Vector for a number of years. Actually I could likely have just stayed with Vector only and still done all that I wanted to do. The primary reason for learning Rhino is for its ability to generate great renderings that I can save into common graphic formats using the Flamingo plugin. I am doing some articles for another hobby and I needed an better way to create illustrations. Some of the concepts are difficult to illustrate in 2D so I needed to be able to do them in 3D. Vector Nurbs has allowed me to do this wonderfully on the screen, but at the moment is lacking a method to save the wonderful renderings other then cut and paste which is only at the display resolution. Rhino lets me get around this limitation. Now if I wanted to machine the part I would be all set in Vector, but for illustrating it I am not. Once I got Rhino it was a small step to also get Visual Mill. So, now I have 2 methods to create tool paths and I can actually combine them. I can take a drawing in Rhino and bring it into Vector NURBS and I can take a Vector drawing and put it into Rhino or Visual Mill. So I have increased my capabilities greatly. All of this to say that I am in no way expecting to replace Vector with Rhino, but more to augment may range. I still feel Vector is a great CAD/CAM package and will continue to recommend it very highly. Tim [Denver, CO] ----- Original Message -----
HI Tim,type, but you can also choose diameter, 3 points, around curve, tangent tangentline - just type the commands from the keyboard - rather than using the mouse alloften, you can also set up shortcut keys to invoke them, using the |
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stevenson_engineers
--- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@y..., "Tim Goldstein" <timg@k...> wrote: Tim, can I take exception the the above statement. Firstly you state:- "When you look at the majority of productivity programs in the world today that command line paradigm was dropped long ago as it just never was successful for the casual user." Productivity programs by their very essence aren't for the casual user, they are heavyweight full time programs. The command line hasn't been dropped but it's alive and well. Have a look at any serious Cad programs like Autocad, Microstation etc and the people who use these 10 hours a day are all on command line inputs. True there are mouse / menu moves to duplicate these moves but the speed is still in the command line. One of the biggest failings I hear against Turbocad is that it's very powerfull but the endless clicking dragging and tabing makes it a pain to use. I know of quite a few organisations that have evalulated it only to drop it because of the slow input. What can be more productive when needing to draw a keyway or slot 8mm wide and 30mm long in the vertical plane than to enter the following on the command line:- SL,8,30,90 <enter> John S. |
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----- Original Message -----
Productivity programs by their very essence aren't for the casualGuess I should clarify. Outside of the CNC world a productivity program is a word processor and a spread sheet. I am refering to programs that are used by huge numbe of users. The command line hasn't been dropped but it's alive and well.Again you are looking at this from the perspective of the machine shop and not software engineering. In the real world (that is the world where companies make billions selling software) the command line is dead except for the geeks and Unix contingent. Have aExactly what I am saying. If you are not a daily user of the program the command line is not the way to go. If you are there is no doubt about the speed. True there are mouse / menu moves to duplicate these movesRemember this is a hobby list and the majority of the members use a CAD/CAM program when they can fit it in which is far from often enough to become accomplished at remembering all the command line commands. One of the biggest failings I hear against Turbocad is that it's veryOrganizations vs hobby again. You need to put on your casual, occasional user hat and clicking and dragging is the prefered method so that when I bring up a program I have not used in 2 months I can get something done immediately. What can be more productive when needing to draw a keyway or slot 8mmNothing unless it takes you 10 minutes to figure out the command because you are a HOBBY user and this is the first time you have gotten to use the program in a month. Again the point I am making is that the requirements for a day in day out user are vastly different from a casual user. In my mind Vector gives the casual user the power of many big $$ programs in a format that is better suited to their usage. Tim [Denver, CO] |
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Ian W. Wright wrote:
Rhino has an advantage over Autocad in that itI know this is off topic, but I don't want anyone to dismiss Rhino as a potential CAD solution. It is quite easy to create aliases for any command in Rhino. Ian, go to Tools>Options and select the Alias tab. There you can type in a letter/number and the command that you want associated with it. That should make things a bit easier! -Tom Murray |
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Carlos Guillermo
Hi John -
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Beg to differ - I commonly work 12 hour days on 3D CAD, and I wouldn't ever go back to the AutoCAD days. Most of the more modern and increasingly popular solid modeling packages like SolidWorks, Solid Edge, IronCAD, etc. are not built around a command-line interface, and for good reason. To each his own. (By "serious" you must mean "we paid a hell of a lot of money for this, stuck it out, and we're not changing NOW!") Regards, Carlos Guillermo VERVE Engineering & Design -----Original Message-----
From: stevenson_engineers [mailto:machines@...] Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 5:46 PM To: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@... Subject: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: Rhino, Was:vector's learning curve <snip> Have a look at any serious Cad programs like Autocad, Microstation etc and the people who use these 10 hours a day are all on command line inputs. |
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I used GC-Place for years. It was a steep learning curve, but you are right after a bit everything was keyboard short cuts. Only used the menu's for the commands I only used one or twice a year.
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At 10:45 PM 11/6/2002 +0000, you wrote:
--- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@y..., "Tim Goldstein" <timg@k...> wrote: |
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Chris L
Carlos Guillermo wrote:
Hi John -Agreed Carlos... Same here. Ashlar Vellum was the first program I used that convinced me of that. "what command line" ! I hate it when they take up valuable screen space. More recently, I have found the fastest way to draw is with a macro program that allows you to use right mouse click "slide" commands. Sensiva is one, but its not free anymore. I still use the free older versions. Draw a shape on the screen with a right mouse drag, and it calls up the tool. Hand never leaves mouse. And because you can put so many commands right there. Your other hand is available for Chips, popcorn and a favorite beverage ! There was a very old Cad program that had that built in but I am not sure of the name right now. My buddy has a copy he still draws with. You'll find the same right mouse drag methods being developed for use in Mozilla. Excellent, just Excellent I tell Ya! Chris L |
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Chris L
stevenson_engineers wrote: (snip)
What can be more productive when needing to draw a keyway or slot 8mmI believe Fred and Vector would say Click "Rectangle" type "30" tab "8" Enter. If Vector had a key command for "rectangle" you'd save a "click". For me, typing the stupid comma in between commands usually ends up a period or a half dozen other wrong keys I do ok with number keys, and I can find those keys like "tab" on the edges of the board pretty easily ! Hope all is well with U these days. Chris L yahoogroups.com |
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stevenson_engineers
--- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@y..., Chris L <datac@l...> wrote:
That will only get you a rectangle. When I said keyway I meant one with 1/2 round ends to it without having to draw any circles or arcs. If you want rectangle that even easier. B,8,30 The B stands for box 8 and 30 are obvious. Your example above uses mouse, right hand to type, lefthand to tab and right hand to type again. We could go on again about this all day but it's just personal preferance. A few years ago I was laid up after an operation. To stop getting bored I took on the conversion from paper to CAD drawings for a local firm. There were three of us. Their own guy, a hired temp guy and myself. We got paid per drawing. I know who earnt the most, in fact it was a solid little earner and I got offered a job from that. It's not also as one poster said "We paid a lot of money for it so it has to work" For [1] I haven't paid a lot, and for [2] you can still use the same commands you have quoted above. Having a command line is extra to the program. All a command line is, is a way to enter macros and most programs make a fuss that they can handle macros. John S. For me, typing the stupid comma in between commands usually ends upa period or a half dozen other wrong keys I do ok with number keys, and I can find those keys like "tab" onthe edges of the board pretty easily ! aol://5863:126/rec.crafts.metalworking or go thru Google.com to reach it if you have trouble. to be a sister site to the CCED group, as many of the same members are there, for OT subjects, that are not allowed on the CCED list. POSTING THEM. DON'T POST IF YOU CAN NOT ACCEPT THIS.....NO EXCEPTIONS........ bill |
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Ian W. Wright
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Goldstein" I'd have to disagree with you Tim, I'm by no means a 'professional' and only started to learn to use CAD after I retired, but I absolutely hate using the mouse - its just so messy and slow. Even if you do use the mouse, you still have to combine it with command line stuff to enter dimensions etc. so why not just use the command line for everything. I find the 'intuitive' programs actually more difficult to use as they are full of quirks and not constrained by the same set of simple rules as a more traditional CAD program. CAD/CAM program when they can fit it in which is far from often enough to becomeThe actual number of commands you need for most day-to-day drawing are very limited - line, circle, offset, trim, arc, int, end, nearest, perp, centre..... and that's about it - not too taxing for even a simple brain like mine!! ;o) Best wishes, Ian -- Ian W. Wright Sheffield, UK The following added for automatic email harvesters! abuse@... abuse@... abuse@... abuse@... UCE@... abuse@... abuse@... |
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Ian W. Wright
Thanks Tom,
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I just keep learning more and more new things........ <G> I just wish I could forget some of the older stuff to make more room.. Best wishes, Ian -- Ian W. Wright Sheffield, UK The following added for automatic email harvesters! abuse@... abuse@... abuse@... abuse@... UCE@... abuse@... abuse@... ----- Original Message -----
From: <thomasm923@...> To: <CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@...> Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 4:16 AM Subject: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: Rhino, Was:vector's learning curve Ian W. Wright wrote:greatRhino has an advantage over Autocad in that it letter/numberdisadvantage that all its commands need to be entered in full - likeI know this is off topic, but I don't want anyone to dismiss Rhino as a and the command that you want associated with it. That should make thingsa bit easier!aol://5863:126/rec.crafts.metalworking or go thru Google.com to reach it if you have trouble. sister site to the CCED group, as many of the same members are there, for OT subjects, that are not allowed on the CCED list. DON'T POST IF YOU CAN NOT ACCEPT THIS.....NO EXCEPTIONS........ bill |
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CL
stevenson_engineers wrote:
That will only get you a rectangle. When I said keyway I meant one with 1/2 round ends to it without having to draw any circles or arcs.Ahhh, big difference ! I think like someone else mentioned,,, a real time waster is not knowing the capability of your cad program that has a command line, always drawing with the mouse. Even good assignments for key commands are beneficial to know and use. I am one to always go into help and print off the keyboard shortcuts page any time I use a new drawing program. Unfortunately, some developers fail in choosing well thought out keyboard commands, most leave some keyboard functions out entirely (like th ability to call up "draw rectangle" in Vector) and even more do not allow re-assignments. Too bad. Chris L |
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Hi,
I use 3D CAD daily (commercially), as well. As Tim has mentioned, what you want it for has much to do with what you should choose. Skills transfer between programs doesn't touch the hobby market, but is important in business. Tim G. wrote: So, I sit by my contention. Vector is an easy to learn and useIt seems to me that it is the issue of skills transfer here. I found that for me Vector's user interface was a paradigm shift from the majority of common commercially used programs. Rhino's interface allows ACAD power users to get up to speed quickly. Having ACAD experience, Rhino doesn't require of me the learning curve Vector would. I chose to go the route of having separate programs for CAD and CAM, for the reasons above. Vector is a good choice if you need both in one package, will stick with it during the learning curve, and are not planning on moving to other packages within the time you'd need to justify some repetition of learning curve. - Keith Rumley My perspective of CAD programs and their generalized USER INTERFACE ease-of-skill transfer family: (definitely NOT by capability) Family 1 (Wireframe-ish base) Vector Family 2 = (Wireframe-ish base) BobCAD AutoCAD R(x) IntelliCAD Rhino (probably the best NURBS surface tool out today) CADKEY MasterCAM SurfCAM OneCNC Family 3 (Solid-ish) ProDesktop Express ProDesktop Alibre Design IronCAD Inovate ProEngineer SolidWorks SolidEdge TurboSolid (My current 'if-I-could-justify-it' favourite) DelCAM Unigraphics Ashlar-Vellum (Cobalt, etc) Inventor Mechanical Desktop CADKEY (sort of) OneCNC (sort of) |
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Tim G. wrote:
syntax and short cuts. When you look at the majority of productivityago as it just never was successful for the casual user.The command line as primary interface paradigm, at least. (i.e. Spreadsheets and formula entry programs still keep it around in some form.) - Keith |
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John S. wrote:
It's not also as one poster said "We paid a lot of money for it so itI'd agree with John S. here - I use the command line essentially as part of the Rhino/ACAD keyboard shortcut/macro system. Sort of like an interactive version of the message bar that most programs have in the lower left margin of the 'window'. Everything is available in icon/menu form, if needed. Non-visual input is the key, IMO. I don't need to move my eyeball's focal point to a dialog box, un-consciously scan it's text, eye-hand coordinate the mouse to select options, etc. I can simply type the command keys. It also lets me rest my mouse hand briefly. You could almost be blind and run command line CAD reliably. (Big selling point, right? :) The ability to type in 'object_snap' values on the fly is something that I especially miss from ACAD. - Keith Rumley (With my bias on the side of using CAD in commercial situations) |
any time I use a new drawing program. Unfortunately, some developersYES! Also, things like default assignments of the main shortcuts to keys on the right-hand side of the keyboard (good for lefties, I suppose) or to combinations of keys difficult to hit with one hand. |
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