#14829

I am just assembling information at this point on possible outgassing in my one and a half year old C14 Edge.

I have some "haze" on the primary mirror. I am not sure if it is water residue or petroleum outgassing haze. I am still investigating.

I am thinking about getting into the scope and cleaning it myself. If this might be outgassing residue, then what cleaning agent would be recommended?

Also, if this is outgassing, then will it continue to outgas throughout the life of the telescope?  I am aware that people change the greases inside but I am not sure if I want to attempt this.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Thomas

Gary Jarrette

#14830

开云体育

Thomas

?

I (Personally) have never heard anyone mention or use the term “Outgassing” with regards to the grease used on SCTs. In my (Personal) experience, and I have had a considerable amount of machining, building, and TIG welding high vacuum systems together for Arizona State University not to mention working on dozens of Electron Microscopes daily for 20 years, this is the only place where the vacuum is remotely high enough to cause things to outgas. We had to be painfully aware of what was put into the systems even to the point of what metals were used in the construction of these instruments.

?

We of course wore gloves and triple washed everything with TCE then Freon, lab grade purity of course. We then housed the entire microscope then baked it out for 24 hours at about 4000° f. Even a fingerprint would “outgas” and would be visible on the Mass Spectrometer we used to monitor this situation when we pumped the system down to 10 to the negative 12 torr.

?

But this is the first time I have heard of “outgassing” with reference to a SCT mirror so (In my personal opinion) outgassing is not a concern.

?

What can be of concern is having grease with an low “Dropping point” melt and drip all over the inside of your OTA. I have had that happen and had the grease drop onto my corrector lens. If your scope is left outside in the Arizona Sun this can be a concern but I think outgassing is not even remotely possible under normal operating conditions, emphasis on “Normal”. Now if you are are operating your scope in space or a vacuum chamber you might run into problems.

?

The above is based on my experience but is not the last word.

?

Gary

?

Carpe Noctem

?

Sent from the Astro Cave via my MS Surface Tablet

?

Show quoted text

From: C14_EdgeHD@... [mailto:C14_EdgeHD@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 4, 2016 4:06 PM
To: C14_EdgeHD@...
Subject: [C14_EdgeHD] Possible outgassing - questions

?

I am just assembling information at this point on possible outgassing in
my one and a half year old C14 Edge.

I have some "haze" on the primary mirror. I am not sure if it is water
residue or petroleum outgassing haze. I am still investigating.

I am thinking about getting into the scope and cleaning it myself. If
this might be outgassing residue, then what cleaning agent would be
recommended?

Also, if this is outgassing, then will it continue to outgas throughout
the life of the telescope? I am aware that people change the greases
inside but I am not sure if I want to attempt this.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Thomas

#14831

开云体育

Gary,

Thanks for your reply.

I am not sure about the term "outgassing." Maybe there is a more precise term.

On the Cloudy Nights Cats and Casses forum there are numerous threads and posts about recently produced Celestron SCTs developing a haze or film on the inner glass elements of their SCTs. Some folks suspect it is from some petroleum product that Celestron uses or did use.

I have some sort of haze on my primary mirror but I don't know if it is residue from dew or if it is chemical. Here is a photo and if you look close at the arrows you can see the "haze."

So now I am pondering my options, one of which is to learn how to clean it myself so I am trying to get as many facts as I can before proceeding.

Thomas

On 2/4/16 8:34 52000, 'Gary Jarrette' garyjarrette@... [C14_EdgeHD] wrote:

Show quoted text

Thomas

I (Personally) have never heard anyone mention or use the term ?€?Outgassing?€? with regards to the grease used on SCTs. In my (Personal) experience, and I have had a considerable amount of machining, building, and TIG welding high vacuum systems together for Arizona State University not to mention working on dozens of Electron Microscopes daily for 20 years, this is the only place where the vacuum is remotely high enough to cause things to outgas. We had to be painfully aware of what was put into the systems even to the point of what metals were used in the construction of these instruments.

We of course wore gloves and triple washed everything with TCE then Freon, lab grade purity of course. We then housed the entire microscope then baked it out for 24 hours at about 4000?° f. Even a fingerprint would ?€?outgas?€? and would be visible on the Mass Spectrometer we used to monitor this situation when we pumped the system down to 10 to the negative 12 torr.

But this is the first time I have heard of ?€?outgassing?€? with reference to a SCT mirror so (In my personal opinion) outgassing is not a concern.

What can be of concern is having grease with an low ?€?Dropping point?€? melt and drip all over the inside of your OTA. I have had that happen and had the grease drop onto my corrector lens. If your scope is left outside in the Arizona Sun this can be a concern but I think outgassing is not even remotely possible under normal operating conditions, emphasis on ?€?Normal?€?. Now if you are are operating your scope in space or a vacuum chamber you might run into problems.

The above is based on my experience but is not the last word.

Gary

.

_._,___

Gary Jarrette

#14832

Thomas

I left myself some wiggle room when expressing my “opinion” which is always
prudent on the groups for many reasons. Now that being said I will say this.
I own two Crestron Scopes. One is 8 years old, the 11” SCT GoTo with GPS,
and the 14” Edge HD which I have had for 5 years. I live in Arizona and
although my two scopes are in an observatory and the 14” is cooled in the
summer by a protective foam box they still see elevated temps above 80° -
90° on occasion.

I have a friend that lives 10 miles away. For several years he kept his 11”
Celestron SCT Edge outside under one of those aluminized telescope covers,
his is at least 5 years old. To this day he has no haze on his mirror. I am
absolutely positive his scope has seen temps above 120° for days on end and
has never mentioned this problem. I convinced him to build a permanent
structure which I designed for him and together we built and erected it in
his back yard. Parijat’s Observatory

But again I want to emphasize I had a situation where grease that was
applied by Celestron in copious amounts dripped off the back of the Mirror.

It was disassembled by Dean Konig of Starizona, and I have the photos of
the handfuls of red grease that was packed behind the Mirror. I can post
them if anyone wants to see them. I was fortunate as the scope was still
under warranty and I eventually sent it back to Celestron at a cost of $200
to me for shipping for a more thorough cleaning. Is this the norm? I don’t
think so but we all know of horror stories where a disgruntled employee may
have had a bald day and was just getting even with the boss or the company
So Gary has to pay!

So what am I trying to say??

From (my limited sampling of scopes I personally have not heard of this. Is
it “Possible”, absolutely yes, but I have not heard of it period. Can cheap
grease from other countries be used on occasion for a myriad of reasons,
yes. And we all know what Country I am talking about!! This country would
would sell you cow crap with perfume in it and tell you it was body lotion.
Sorry am not a politically correct person. I call them as I see them!

Let us examine another possibility. Remove your Corrector, reach in with a
soft natural cotton ball with some alcohol on it and on the edge of the
mirror see if the haze comes off. If it comes off then remove the mirror and
do the cleaning in the prescribed manor and replace the grease with the
proper type of grease. If it does not come off then perhaps the haze is
indicative of a problem with the mirror itself or the coating.

If I were you I would start with a call to Dean at Starizona, he has sold
thousands of Celestron scopes.  He is a wonderful human being and his
experience and advice is Gold.

It is totally within the realm of possibilities that the grease is breaking
down and you asked if this is possible? And I would say, with reservation
based on the lack of historical and empirical evidence that it is unlikely
but it would not be the first time one grease was substituted for another
for expediency. Call Dean and start there and tell him Gary suggested that
you seek his advice.

From: C14_EdgeHD@... [mailto:C14_EdgeHD@...]
Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 8:17 AM
To: C14_EdgeHD@...
Subject: Re: [C14_EdgeHD] Possible outgassing - questions

Gary,

Thanks for your reply.

I am not sure about the term "outgassing." Maybe there is a more precise
term.

On the Cloudy Nights Cats and Casses forum there are numerous threads and
posts about recently produced Celestron SCTs developing a haze or film on
the inner glass elements of their SCTs. Some folks suspect it is from some
petroleum product that Celestron uses or did use.

I have some sort of haze on my primary mirror but I don't know if it is
residue from dew or if it is chemical.  Here is a photo and if you look
close at the arrows you can see the "haze."

So now I am pondering my options, one of which is to learn how to clean it
myself so I am trying to get as many facts as I can before proceeding.

Thomas

On 2/4/16 8:34 52000, 'Gary Jarrette' garyjarrette@...
<mailto:garyjarrette@...>  [C14_EdgeHD] wrote:

Thomas

I (Personally) have never heard anyone mention or use the term ?
€?Outgassing?€? with regards to the grease used on SCTs. In my (Personal)
experience, and I have had a considerable amount of machining, building, and
TIG welding high vacuum systems together for Arizona State University not to
mention working on dozens of Electron Microscopes daily for 20 years, this
is the only place where the vacuum is remotely high enough to cause things
to outgas. We had to be painfully aware of what was put into the systems
even to the point of what metals were used in the construction of these
instruments.

We of course wore gloves and triple washed everything with TCE then Freon,
lab grade purity of course. We then housed the entire microscope then baked
it out for 24 hours at about 4000?° f. Even a fingerprint would ?€?outgas?€?
and would be visible on the Mass Spectrometer we used to monitor this
situation when we pumped the system down to 10 to the negative 12 torr.

But this is the first time I have heard of ?€?outgassing?€? with reference
to a SCT mirror so (In my personal opinion) outgassing is not a concern.

What can be of concern is having grease with an low ?€?Dropping point?€?
melt and drip all over the inside of your OTA. I have had that happen and
had the grease drop onto my corrector lens. If your scope is left outside in
the Arizona Sun this can be a concern but I think outgassing is not even
remotely possible under normal operating conditions, emphasis on ?€?Normal?
€?. Now if you are are operating your scope in space or a vacuum chamber you
might run into problems.

The above is based on my experience but is not the last word.

Gary

.

<mailbox://Users/thomasashcraft/Library/Thunderbird/Profiles/y0km5ois.defaul
t/Mail/pop.netfirms.com/Drafts?number=139337303&s=97359714/grpId=3367692/grp
spId=1705082856/msgId=15042/stime=1454643287>

<mailbox://Users/thomasashcraft/Library/Thunderbird/Profiles/y0km5ois.defaul
t/Mail/pop.netfirms.com/Drafts?number=139337303&ywarid=515FB27823A7407E&a=10
001310322279&js=no&resp=img>

_._,___

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gary Jarrette

#14833

Thomas

I would like to add one more comment to our discussion about “Outgassing”
on your mirror.

I Iooked at the picture of your mirror again and noticed something
peculiar. It looks like this haze on your minor, if deposited by something
that is released into the air space inside the OTA, is it not deposited
evenly on the whole surface of the mirror. If the picture is correct you
have area, a ring or band if you will where there is no deposit, just the
central region is hazy. This is very peculiar. If something was floating
around in the OTA like dust or particulate matter of any type it would not
be selective in its deposition. It would coat the entire surface evenly, so
this leads me to wonder if maybe you store your scope pointing down.

This is just a theory but if the mirror is looking down like a bowl upside
down and grease is melting and getting past the hole in the mirror around
the baffle tube it could flow out evenly from the center of the mirror. This
could account for it not reaching the outer edge of the mirror, YET.

Do you store your scope facing down? Has it been stored facing down setting
on the ground, shelf, or other such surface in a relatively warm or hot area
like a garage for any extended period of time at elevated temperatures?

One last thing..

Are you sure this is not a reflection?

Gary

Carpe Noctem

Sent from the Astro Cave via my MS Surface Tablet

From: C14_EdgeHD@... [mailto:C14_EdgeHD@...]
Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 8:17 AM
To: C14_EdgeHD@...
Subject: Re: [C14_EdgeHD] Possible outgassing - questions

Gary,

Thanks for your reply.

I am not sure about the term "outgassing." Maybe there is a more precise
term.

On the Cloudy Nights Cats and Casses forum there are numerous threads and
posts about recently produced Celestron SCTs developing a haze or film on
the inner glass elements of their SCTs. Some folks suspect it is from some
petroleum product that Celestron uses or did use.

I have some sort of haze on my primary mirror but I don't know if it is
residue from dew or if it is chemical.  Here is a photo and if you look
close at the arrows you can see the "haze."

So now I am pondering my options, one of which is to learn how to clean it
myself so I am trying to get as many facts as I can before proceeding.

Thomas

On 2/4/16 8:34 52000, 'Gary Jarrette' garyjarrette@...
<mailto:garyjarrette@...>  [C14_EdgeHD] wrote:

Thomas

I (Personally) have never heard anyone mention or use the term ?
€?Outgassing?€? with regards to the grease used on SCTs. In my (Personal)
experience, and I have had a considerable amount of machining, building, and
TIG welding high vacuum systems together for Arizona State University not to
mention working on dozens of Electron Microscopes daily for 20 years, this
is the only place where the vacuum is remotely high enough to cause things
to outgas. We had to be painfully aware of what was put into the systems
even to the point of what metals were used in the construction of these
instruments.

We of course wore gloves and triple washed everything with TCE then Freon,
lab grade purity of course. We then housed the entire microscope then baked
it out for 24 hours at about 4000?° f. Even a fingerprint would ?€?outgas?€?
and would be visible on the Mass Spectrometer we used to monitor this
situation when we pumped the system down to 10 to the negative 12 torr.

But this is the first time I have heard of ?€?outgassing?€? with reference
to a SCT mirror so (In my personal opinion) outgassing is not a concern.

What can be of concern is having grease with an low ?€?Dropping point?€?
melt and drip all over the inside of your OTA. I have had that happen and
had the grease drop onto my corrector lens. If your scope is left outside in
the Arizona Sun this can be a concern but I think outgassing is not even
remotely possible under normal operating conditions, emphasis on ?€?Normal?
€?. Now if you are are operating your scope in space or a vacuum chamber you
might run into problems.

The above is based on my experience but is not the last word.

Gary

.

<mailbox://Users/thomasashcraft/Library/Thunderbird/Profiles/y0km5ois.defaul
t/Mail/pop.netfirms.com/Drafts?number=139337303&s=97359714/grpId=3367692/grp
spId=1705082856/msgId=15042/stime=1454643287>

<mailbox://Users/thomasashcraft/Library/Thunderbird/Profiles/y0km5ois.defaul
t/Mail/pop.netfirms.com/Drafts?number=139337303&ywarid=515FB27823A7407E&a=10
001310322279&js=no&resp=img>

_._,___

#14834

Hi Thomas,

My EdgeHD1400 is 4+ years old and not only the corrector plate also the primary mirror has had a great amount of dust on the surface.

I have suspected it was primarily due to water residue because I have often used the scope in the very humid environment and that the dew that condensed on the mirror drew the striped pattern on the surface thanks to the gravity. Also suspected the dew came through the rear cell air vents.

A few weeks ago I decided and cleaned both the corrector plate and the primary mirror. Cleaning the mirror was a bit challenging; since I did not want to cause any mechanical error because of any unnecessary dismantling I cleaned the mirror without the carbon tube being removed from the rear cell.?

I cleaned the mirror with neutral detergent and tons of cottons, softly swiped and used new cotton with detergent for each swipe. After the cleaning, I rinsed the mirror with shower carefully so that I would not throw water backside of the mirror or onto the baffle tube (especially on the part with grease), and threw some purified water to the mirror to finish the cleaning.

Overall it worked out but I should have put a cover on the baffle tube to prevent from water using a plastic bag and a rubber band to hold it.

Hope this somehow helps.

https://picasaweb.google.com/103800208488106107896/EdgeHD1400PrimaryMirrorCleaning#

Regards,

Yasushi Fukunaga

#14835

开云体育

Gary,

Thanks for the further thoughts.

I keep the C14 permanently on my mount under a telegizmos 365 cover in a horizontal position.

I will be looking back into it all and taking better photos of the mirror soon, after the bad weather ceases.

I will report back.

Thomas

On 2/5/16 8:32 50000, 'Gary Jarrette' garyjarrette@... [C14_EdgeHD] wrote:

Show quoted text

Thomas

I would like to add one more comment to our discussion about ?€?Outgassing?€?
on your mirror.

I Iooked at the picture of your mirror again and noticed something
peculiar. It looks like this haze on your minor, if deposited by something
that is released into the air space inside the OTA, is it not deposited
evenly on the whole surface of the mirror. If the picture is correct you
have area, a ring or band if you will where there is no deposit, just the
central region is hazy. This is very peculiar. If something was floating
around in the OTA like dust or particulate matter of any type it would not
be selective in its deposition. It would coat the entire surface evenly, so
this leads me to wonder if maybe you store your scope pointing down.

This is just a theory but if the mirror is looking down like a bowl upside
down and grease is melting and getting past the hole in the mirror around
the baffle tube it could flow out evenly from the center of the mirror. This
could account for it not reaching the outer edge of the mirror, YET.

Do you store your scope facing down? Has it been stored facing down setting
on the ground, shelf, or other such surface in a relatively warm or hot area
like a garage for any extended period of time at elevated temperatures?

One last thing..

Are you sure this is not a reflection?

Gary
.

#14836

开云体育

Hi Yasushi,

Thank you so much for documenting your process in images. If I get up the courage to open the scope I will be there with my camera as well.

I am wondering if someone with a long thin arm could reach down to the primary mirror through the corrector plate center hole.

Clear skies,
Thomas

On 2/6/16 6:35 29000, yfukunag@... [C14_EdgeHD] wrote:

Show quoted text

Hi Thomas,

My EdgeHD1400 is 4+ years old and not only the corrector plate also the primary mirror has had a great amount of dust on the surface.

I have suspected it was primarily due to water residue because I have often used the scope in the very humid environment and that the dew that condensed on the mirror drew the striped pattern on the surface thanks to the gravity. Also suspected the dew came through the rear cell air vents.

A few weeks ago I decided and cleaned both the corrector plate and the primary mirror. Cleaning the mirror was a bit challenging; since I did not want to cause any mechanical error because of any unnecessary dismantling I cleaned the mirror without the carbon tube being removed from the rear cell.

I cleaned the mirror with neutral detergent and tons of cottons, softly swiped and used new cotton with detergent for each swipe. After the cleaning, I rinsed the mirror with shower carefully so that I would not throw water backside of the mirror or onto the baffle tube (especially on the part with grease), and threw some purified water to the mirror to finish the cleaning.

Overall it worked out but I should have put a cover on the baffle tube to prevent from water using a plastic bag and a rubber band to hold it.

Hope this somehow helps.

Regards,

Yasushi Fukunaga

Gary Jarrette

#14837

Ok Thomas

Just trying to come up with some with some scenarios that could account for
the condition your mirror is in.

I am sure you are aware of how difficult it is to make a diagnosis with
information supplied by someone on the internet. The good thing is that
there is so much experience to draw from some good some bad. You will have
to be the final arbiter of that

The last comment on cleaning the mirror was a good one but I “personally”
would remove the mirror. If you have removed the corrector you are half way
there. Going the extra distance is not that much more of a task.

Reaching in to clean the surface of the mirror makes it much more
difficult. I can understand the reluctance to dissemble and its appeal but
in reality going the extra distance to remove the mirror is really not that
much more difficult. It involves removing a nut on the focus knob and an
“0’’Ring” on the baffle tube, after that you just pull the tube and the
mirror comes out with the tube. This also gives you opportunity to clean off
and re-grease the baffle tube with fresh grease alleviating your concerns
about outgassing and if the scope is several years old it is probably a good
Idea anyway.

There are several good videos on YouTube about cleaning optics and mirrors.
As was pointed out in the previous post use copious amounts of swabs or
cotton balls and not the synthetic type, use real cotton. Also final rinse
with distilled water. A note of caution. Aluminized mirror coatings are much
softer than lens surfaces so do not rub. Continuously use fresh cotton and
keep it wet. Wipe away from the center and no circular motions. Drag the
cotton do not apply pleasure. Mirrors are easily scratched as they are
relatively much softer than lens coatings and both should be cleaned gently
for maxim longevity but you can do it as it is not all that difficult.

Remember to reinstall the corrector in the exact position that it was in
prior to removal. It might be a good time to check to see if your nut on the
secondary mirror holder is tight and perhaps replace the fiber washer with a
new rubberized one from Starizona. The OEM washer dries out and can cause
the secondary mirror housing to rotate so this would be a good time to
replace it.

Well that is about it. I believe we have sufficiently beaten this dead
horse. Let us know how you make out?

Gary

Carpe Noctem

Sent from the Astro Cave via my MS Surface Tablet

From: C14_EdgeHD@... [mailto:C14_EdgeHD@...]
Sent: Saturday, February 6, 2016 7:56 AM
To: C14_EdgeHD@...
Subject: Re: [C14_EdgeHD] Possible outgassing - questions

Gary,

Thanks for the further thoughts.

I keep the C14 permanently on my mount under a telegizmos 365 cover in a
horizontal position.

I will be looking back into it all and taking better photos of the mirror
soon, after the bad weather ceases.

I will report back.

Thomas

On 2/5/16 8:32 50000, 'Gary Jarrette' garyjarrette@...
<mailto:garyjarrette@...>  [C14_EdgeHD] wrote:

Thomas

I would like to add one more comment to our discussion about ?€?Outgassing?
€?
on your mirror.

I Iooked at the picture of your mirror again and noticed something
peculiar. It looks like this haze on your minor, if deposited by something
that is released into the air space inside the OTA, is it not deposited
evenly on the whole surface of the mirror. If the picture is correct you
have area, a ring or band if you will where there is no deposit, just the
central region is hazy. This is very peculiar. If something was floating
around in the OTA like dust or particulate matter of any type it would not
be selective in its deposition. It would coat the entire surface evenly, so
this leads me to wonder if maybe you store your scope pointing down.

This is just a theory but if the mirror is looking down like a bowl upside
down and grease is melting and getting past the hole in the mirror around
the baffle tube it could flow out evenly from the center of the mirror.
This
could account for it not reaching the outer edge of the mirror, YET.

Do you store your scope facing down? Has it been stored facing down setting
on the ground, shelf, or other such surface in a relatively warm or hot
area
like a garage for any extended period of time at elevated temperatures?

One last thing..

Are you sure this is not a reflection?

Gary
.

<
=15045/stime=1454729567>

<
9&js=no&resp=img>