Keyboard Shortcuts
Likes
Search
Ideal eyepiece(s) for HD scopes?
Given the exotic optical characteristics of the Celestron EdgeHD scopes, and the apparently sensitive nature of these and all the other SCTs to matters of backfocus, vignetting, etc, here is what I am wondering:? if one is seeking eyepieces for visual use, and assuming a 2" VB, 2" mirror diagonal, and the stock focuser,? and wants minimal or zero vignetting and none of this so-called 'aperture shrinking' due to whatever optical problems in the set-up,? can someone here provide a list of eyepieces that will function properly in a C11HD?? I ask because I just installed a Baader 3.25" clicklock VB, and a 2" Baader clicklock 'refractor-type' diagonal.? I love them, they work way better than the sketchy stock equipment..?? But over on CloudyNights there is a lot of back and forth about the long back focus of a non-Celestron diagonal compromising visual quality on these HD scopes.? and even some arguments about the wisdom of using a 2" diagonal at all, especially on the 8 and 9.25.?
I am searching for the 'best' long focal length, wide actual FOV eyepiece, something in the range of 70-90X mag. range, that will retain the flat, uncompromised? pinpoint visuals of the HD.? I know these scopes are not ideal for wide field low power; but I am not ready to throw in the towel and get a wide field refractor!? I just want one EP that is at the far low power wide field end of the supplied 23mm EP.? You all know what I mean: to get the entire Double Cluster in one glorious field of view.? The Nagler 31?? 35mmPanoptic?? Meade 30mm UWA? A40mm of some kind? Thanks, I look forward to your opinions! |
Since no one has replied I'll put in 2 cents worth: The Edge has a fairly flat and well corrected field,?similar to a?quality refractor. You want an EP that does?not correct for coma.? EPs that do well on good refractors should also work well with an Edge.? I?generally favor a TeleVue EP (unless?the?specifications suggest correction for Newt or traditional SCT).?? But I don't look thru my scopes all that much anymore (mostly do imaging). Stan |
Thanks Stan.?
The goal is to find the specific ideal eyepiece for the C11HD, that will provide the widest, sharpest, contrasty field of view for a mag of say 60 to 90X. I have a 2" BP clicklock VB and a 2" BP clicklock diagonal.? I'm looking for an eyepiece that can span the entire Double Cluster. Tack sharp to the edge. No stray light or reflection issues like the 23Luminos.? I know these SCTs are not intended for wide field observing, but I want to get as close to that as possible, which seems to be more challenging than choosing a higher mag EP.. Frankly, the 23mm/82 degree Luminos that came with the scope is? nice enough, it's certainly massive and stylish.? The 122 power magnification is just about right for visual enjoyment of the scope under ordinary viewing conditions.? But there is a distinct and unpleasant white glow around the outer 20 or so percent of the FOV,? which becomes increasingly annoying once you see it in every view.? Have any of you seen it?? Have you seen that persistent little reflection flashing in the 23Luminos, as a bright star is slewed to the precise center of the visual field, that little reflection follows toward it, and then disappears if and when the star is on the visual axis? Anyway, I am reluctant to spend $ on another Luminos, despite Celestron's claim that they are designed specifically for the HD Edge OTAs.? Maybe to be more specific to my C11HD, I did some research, and have tallied the most often recommended eyepiece for max FOV, edge integrity, and magnification range 60-90X , to these: Pentax 40 XW Pentax 30 XW Panoptic 41 Meade 56 Super Plossl Opinions?? Does anyone out there use any of these?? thanks, Angela |
All, I think that there are many situations where non-ideal viewing conditions limit the effectiveness of upper end eyepieces especially for 67 year old eyes?That being said I do have three Tele?Vue Ethos for my C-11. For wide?field viewing I really like the Orion q70 38mm. At only $99 it's a great bargain. regards, Ron K. |
There are a few problems with trying to use a large aperture for visual wide field, primarily exit pupil and the extent of the corrected field.
?
Exit pupil is the diameter of the parallelized light exiting the EP and trying to enter your eye.? If the?exit pupil is larger than your eye's iris then most of the light will fail to make it thru.? Furthermore, if the scope is obstructed (as SCT is by the secondary) then you will experience unpleasant?shadow effects?that are extremely sensitive to exact eye placement.? So unless you are imaging or using an intensifier (for live viewing) then there is a strict limit on the FL and magnification that can be used with the scope.
?
Exit pupil = EP_FL / f-ratio
dark adapted eye iris diam = approx. 8mm (varies somewhat by individual)
magnification = scope_FL / EP-Fl
?
So the?longest EP FL usable with that scope is about?80mm?for a minimum magnification of 35x.
Thus?all?the EPs you list are OK and you could get a lower magnification (via longer FL EP) if you wanted.
?
However, magnification is only part of the story, especially for expensive very wide field EPs.?If the EP's true FOV exceeds the scope's corrected field then the perimeter of the view will be poor (e.g. excessive coma, astigmatism, defocus, etc.).? The Edge is?corrected for?FOV somewhere near 30mm(?).?The math gets a bit more complicated but a simplification is:
?
linear FOV = L / fl (where L is the angular FOV in radians and fl is the optic focal length)
so for linear FOV = 30mm with fl = 2794mm:
?
angular FOV = 30/2794 = 0.011 radians = 0.6 deg (larger than the moon but not by much)
?
finally, the formula for converting EP apparent FOV to angular FOV is:
?
angular_FOV = apparent_FOV / magnification
or
apparent_FOV ?= angular_FOV * magnification
?
?
So if you choose a 40mm EP (e.g. Panoptic 41) then:
?
Magnification = 70x
Exit pupil = 4mm (plenty good enough)
Corrected angular FOV = 0.6 deg
Maximum useful apparent FOV = 42 deg
?
The Panoptic 41 Panoptic 41 has apparent FOV = 68 deg, thus it is overkill and the periphery quality will be poor.? However, your eye¡¯s periphery is not so good anyway and you might like the ¡°space walk¡± experience even if the edges are not really in focus.? But you could save some money by getting a more modest EP and not loose much in the way of actual quality.
?
Stan |
P.S.??An alternative?to consider is to get a shorter FL with a wide field. The magnification will be greater but the corrected angular FOV will be about the same as the Panoptic 41 Panoptic 41.? I like wide?FOV EPs in the 12-24 mm range.? But beware of overly short EP FL because the optimal eye distance?(relief) may be short and overly critical. |
I had not thought of this, so thanks for the idea.? The issue, then, is not necessarily finding a low power long focal length EP, but rather finding the EP with the widest true FOV that works agreeably with the EgeHD optical train.? I have noticed that the Luminos 23mm supplied with all the Edge HD scopes has some spurious? reflections and a kind of light halo in the outer part of the field.? Now that I have noticed it, it is increasingly annoying.? I am hoping to find an EP that does? not have these artifacts but can provide a crisp but also optimally wide field view, at a reasonably low magnification, let's say below the 122X of the 23mm.
All the theorizing aside, the real issue is whether anyone has actually tested a variety of EPs in these scopes, and can provide a conclusive report on performance.? |
Reflections are not necessarily from the EP. Check the diagonal and everything in the image train for any unblackened surface. Also check the EP; you might be able to fix the problem. I recommend?a high quality wide field EP in the range of 25-35mm. Buy?from Orion or other retailer that allows return for full refund. Stan |
Personally I'd go with a Televue 41mm Panoptic or a 31mm Nagler. They have basically the widest FoV of any eyepiece in a 2" barrel, with the 41mm very slightly wider. Televue has an eyepiece calculator on their website that gives all pertinent info as regards their own eyepieces on any OTA. Advantage of the 31mm Nagler is that it gives higher magnification (darker background?), but some may find the 82 degree apparent FoV too wide with the 65 degree AFoV of the Panoptic more cosy. I suspect that since Al Nagler is so passionate about his eyepieces, their image fields are quite flat and hence suited to the Edge HD. But that really needs confirmation from somebody who has actually used them on said scope. Perhaps try asking on Cloudy Nights? |
I have 28mm WO eyepiece (82* field) that I tested with the 14"Edge, as well as a stock 23mm Luminos. Both work pretty good as far as I can tell. No reflections and no coma. There could be some softer out-of-focus according to the calculations Stan provided but it was not immediately apparent. I was also going to try them with 0.7x reducer, but the magnification might be too low.
Ian |
The closest you're going to get to getting the entire Double Cluster at 2800mm is a 1-degree FoV and 68x with the 41mm Televue Panoptic. Anything less is going to show aberrations at the edge of the field.
In my opinion the BEST QUALITY full view is with the 31mm Nagler T5, its only .91-degrees but its well corrected right to the field stop. Plus its 82-degrees instead of 68. You get almost the same FoV, but with more magnification (90x) and a darker sky. |
Oh and FWIW, the 23mm Luminos is a piece of garbage! I was fortunate enough to have sold mine and replaced it with a 20mm ES 100 which is FAR superior. In fact, its my most used eyepiece. I would rather have the 21mm Ethos but its 3x the price of the ES100, but it is truly amazing.
For the money the ES 100 eyepieces are excellent values. The 14mm and 9mm models are also very good in the Edge series. I also have the 31mm Nagler and the 11mm Nagler. All of which are fantastic in my C11 Edge and get a lot of use. |
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýAgree about the 23mm Luminos.? My most used eyepiece is my ancient 20mm type 2 Nagler 82 degree.? An even older Meade 32mm wide-angle is also excellent? with the C14HD.? Lou ? To: C14_EdgeHD@... From: wes@... Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 12:26:25 -0800 Subject: [C14_EdgeHD] RE: Ideal eyepiece(s) for HD scopes? ?
Oh and FWIW, the 23mm Luminos is a piece of garbage! I was fortunate enough to have sold mine and replaced it with a 20mm ES 100 which is FAR superior. In fact, its my most used eyepiece. I would rather have the 21mm Ethos but its 3x the price of the ES100, but it is truly amazing.
For the money the ES 100 eyepieces are excellent values. The 14mm and 9mm models are also very good in the Edge series. I also have the 31mm Nagler and the 11mm Nagler. All of which are fantastic in my C11 Edge and get a lot of use. |
OP here again....thanks to all of you for your well-considered opinions on my quest for the ideal low power wide field EP for a C11HD.?? After also reading various websites til my eyes are exhausted, the choice is down to the 41Panoptic; the 40mmExpSci68 degree; and possibly the 31 Nagler.?? I will sell the 23mm Luminos that came with the scope, or just use it for public outreach events, where its subtle shortcomings will go unnoticed.?? And just as an aside, I do have a 9mm ES 100degree EP and have had only disappointing results, which may be due to the crummy seeing conditions here on the southern Cal coast, with light pollution, and turbulent, moist air masses, etc.? Furthermore, my 60+ age bracket probably limits my access to that 100 degree porthole thing that younger eyes claim to adore.? So I'll likely sell that EP.? The nights around here when mags greater than about 200-240X are useful are very rare, and I find I am drawn anyway to comfortable, pinpoint, expansive, high contrast views moreso than to super high magnification or exotic FOV that require rotating my head.?
Three premium eyepieces seems to be the ideal number for me and my budget.? I guess the next issue will be a premium mid range focal length EP, like 20mm-24mm.? The Luminos at 23mm feels just right, but the outer field glow and the internal reflections are so annoying, unfortunately.? I wonder what that's all about.? Anyway, thanks to all of you for your input. It's an intriguing subject, I think, for owners of the HD scopes. |