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Tenders, Feed Water Heaters, & Chinese trains.
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Ray and Myrna Matthews
Hello All!
Sorry this pertains to items back on Mar. 19th, but I just got around to reading my back "onelists". First, Doug Rhodes says as the first of the CP G3 class heavy Pacifics were built in 1919, the photo of the "Chinese" train could have been taken in that year. The only thing is both the early G3 and G4 classes were not built with feed water heaters. They were applied almost ten years later. Sorry Doug, but it sounds more and more like the now infamous photo is not what it was supposed to be. Now, a little "nit-picking" with Donald Scott who has stated that the CPR "pioneered" the application of Elesco "Bundle" style Feed Water Heaters around 1927/28. I assume this means applications in Canada. If that is what you meant Donald, then you are away off base. I cannot say when they were first applied in the USA, but on the CNR the first Elesco FWH was installed on Mikado # 3498 in June 1920. Apparently this was tested for a year or so as none were installed in 1921, but by 1922 CNR began to apply them in earnest. Also, the tenders with the curved in edges on the G5 class 1200s did not begin with the 1231, as stated. The 1231 was the last of the G5b class and had a straight edged tender. The 1232, the first of the G5c class was the first 1200 with a curved-top tender. Don't be fooled by photos because in the mid-1950s, after they began scrapping some of the 1200s, some of those with straight tenders received curved ones, and vice versa. Not many, but a few. With regard to the 3100 series 4-8-4s, the "elephant ears" smoke deflectors came off a while before they were transferred out west. I have photos of them on passenger trains in eastern Quebec and the maritimes, and the deflectors were gone then. Of interest, they were not immediately converted to burn oil but continued to operate out of several prairie terminals as coal burners. At various times they were were assigned to such places as Winnipeg, Moose Jaw, and Medicine Hat before being converted late in 1956. At this time they received the tenders from scrapped T1a class 2-10-4s Nos. 5906 and 5916. I think the conversions were done at Ogden Shops in Calgary as I saw the former coal tenders there in 1957. Yes, they were very rarely seen west of Medicine Hat, but I saw them both, as coal and oil burners at Calgary. Sorry for being so picky Donald, but there is one more item. In one of your very interesting lists of locomotives you saw during your trips across the country you stated that one of the engines you saw at port Coquitlam (I think it was in 1953), you listed D10 No. 611. Sorry, that engine was scrapped in May of 1949 at Winnipeg. I suggest the one you saw was 911 which had come off Vancouver Island a few years previous, and was often around Vancouver during the early 1950s. Again, Doug and Donald, sorry to be pecking away at what appear to be minor technicalities, but we have to keep the records straight. Ray Matthews |
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Joe Smuin
Hi all:
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Some of you that are relatively new to railfanning may not know that an excellent book was published a number of years ago, which details Canadian Pacific Railway steam engines with about as much authority as possible. That book is CANADIAN PACIFIC STEAM LOCOMOTIVES by Omer Lavallee. The late Mr. Lavallee was the corporate historian or archivist for the CPR for many years and was extremely knowledgeable on the topic of CPR steam engines. Now (so far as I know) out of print, this book will not be easy to come by and will be very expensive, if found. However, it is worth every cent as it virtually details the basic information about every steam engine the CPR ever owned. Superheating details will, off course, not be detailed to the last changeout, but the book still gives information upon such matters. Perhaps while talking about knowledgeable people and keeping the records straight, it would be helpful to point out for the benefit of those who don't know that Ray Matthews is also an very knowledgeable individual when it comes to Canadian railroading, especially in western Canada. A lifelong railfan, he worked his way through Operations Department ranks on the Canadian National Railways, holding a very respectable management position when he retired. He has published or been involved with the publishing of a number of works dealing with railroading in western Canada. There are probably very few people in this country as well acquainted as Ray is with Canadian railway operations AND the steam and diesel motive power assigned to western Canada on both the CPR and CNR. For you current CPR employees, just out of curiosity, what kind of train lengths are you handling on the main lines these days? At the BC Rail North Vancouver yard this morning, we put out a 146 car train with a stretched length of 10,600 feet. Considering that was northbound, it was pretty near the record, so far as I can tell. How does that stack up with you guys over there on the Chicanery Pacific?? Joe Smuin Port Coquitlam Ray and Myrna Matthews wrote:
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James E.Mack
I have a 1924 book on ELESCO feed water heaters and CP and CN are listed as having
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them. Ray and Myrna Matthews wrote: From: Ray and Myrna Matthews <rayme@...> |
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Joe Smuin
Hello gang.
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True enough, James. But ... to get back to the nub of the discussion, the G3 Pacifics did not have such heaters at the time of their construction, starting in 1919. If memory serves me correctly, the engine that Doug Rhodes referred to in his initial bulletins was identified as a G3. If so, then the photograph must have been taken at a date well after 1919 because Lavallee's book makes it plain that the G3 engines did not get feed water heaters until rebuilt some time after construction. Old timers can correct me here, but if I'm not mistaken, general rebuilds of steam engines did not occur until around ten years or so after they went into service, which would put the application of the Elesco Feedwater Heaters into pretty much the time frame that Mr. Matthews states. I think the main thing here is that for once, what originally seemed to be a very improbable story, appears to have basis in fact. However, it is common for authors to stick a convenient photograph as illustration for the story, even though the engine shown may have never been within 500 miles of the story site. In most such cases, to the author, it's a steam engine, one steam engine is as good as the next steam engine and what's the difference anyway? The answer to that is that when questions arise in the future, erroneous illustrations cause historians no end of hair pulling. Generates a fair amount of traffic on Onelist sites, too! Joe Smuin "James E.Mack" wrote:
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