|
In Farhan's talk, he showed some C code that he wrote for the RPi. I don't know anything about the tools for writing C on the RPi. What is the coding environment (IDE?) and does it have a source-level debugger?
Jack, W8TEE
-- Jack, W8TEE
|
Jack
The Pi is just another computer that is capable of running all the Linux
programs and even some of the Windows applications.? Any of the
coding environments that are available in Linux, or any of the other
UNIX derivatives, will work on a Pi.?
There is even talk of running Microsoft Windows on a Raspberry Pi. That discussion involves questions regarding whether to run
Windows on top of Linux, or Linux on top of Windows...or whether to
use multi-boot to select which one you want to run.
Arv _._
In Farhan's talk, he showed some C code that he wrote for the RPi. I don't know anything about the tools for writing C on the RPi. What is the coding environment (IDE?) and does it have a source-level debugger?
Jack, W8TEE
--
Jack, W8TEE
|
Jack,
Raspberry pi coding environment - it's a Linux machine. There is a vast wealth of programming possibilities. Every language you could imagine. I generally connect to my Linux boxes via SSH, and write programs on a text editor. There are text-based debuggers, graphics-based debuggers. And much etc. It's a far bigger programming world
than Arduino/teensy/PIC etc.
- Jerry KF6VB
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
|
Jack, You write using your favourite editor, mine is vim. Then, there is a batch file called build that compiles it with gcc. For debugging you can use gdb. It is standard gnu C toolchain. - f
In Farhan's talk, he showed some C code that he wrote for the RPi. I don't know anything about the tools for writing C on the RPi. What is the coding environment (IDE?) and does it have a source-level debugger?
Jack, W8TEE
--
Jack, W8TEE
|
C code is generally compiled with gcc. I just edited a file: tryit.c
---------snip------------
#include <stdio.h>
int main()
{
printf( "hello, world\n" );
}
------------ endsnip --------
At the command line, I said "gcc tryit.c".
The output file was called "a.out".
I typed "a.out" ( the standard output file of gcc )
...and it answered "hello, world";
To analyze source, I use a tool called "cscope", which was written by ATT
approximately 1 zillion years ago.
To debug: gdb. There are also a few graphical-based tools that run on top of gdb.
Haven't even scratched the surface. As I said, Linux programming is a vast
world.
- Jerry KF6VB
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 2021-05-25 08:54, jerry@... wrote: Jack,
Raspberry pi coding environment - it's a Linux machine. There is a
vast wealth of programming possibilities. Every language you could
imagine. I generally connect to my Linux boxes via SSH, and write
programs on a text editor. There are text-based debuggers,
graphics-based debuggers. And much etc. It's a far bigger
programming world
than Arduino/teensy/PIC etc.
- Jerry KF6VB
On 2021-05-25 08:29, Jack, W8TEE via groups.io wrote:
In Farhan's talk, he showed some C code that he wrote for the RPi. I
don't know anything about the tools for writing C on the RPi. What is
the coding environment (IDE?) and does it have a source-level
debugger?
Jack, W8TEE
--
Jack, W8TEE
Links:
------
[1] /g/BITX20/message/88712
[2] /mt/83078620/243852
[3] /g/BITX20/post
[4] /g/BITX20/editsub/243852
[5] /g/BITX20/leave/10189903/243852/952924773/xyzzy
|
The Arduino IDE also uses the gcc compiler.
The big advance of Arduino was to provide consistent ways to easily talk to low level?
hardware across a number of different processors.
They try to make it easier for noobies to do simple things by automating a few minor details,
which makes it more difficult for everybody else to do not-so-simple things.
In my opinion, Arduino should have aimed at being more transparent about what was going on.
Which, in my opinion, means they really screwed up by going with C++ instead of vanilla C.
I find it a great relief to move back to a unix/linux shell prompt and direct access to the gcc tool chain
after doing battle with Arduino.
Jack has 50 years experience with C, none of the above is news to him.
He is more comfortable with Arduino and C++ than I.
His opinions likely differ.
Jerry, KE7ER
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 09:17 AM, jerry@... wrote:
C code is generally compiled with gcc. I just edited a file: tryit.c
|
Jerry. Arv:
I haven't used Linux at all recently. The last time I was on a VAX machine, we had a version of Unix running, but that was decades ago. There would be a very steep learning curve for this old dog.
Jack, W8TEE
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021, 12:00:48 PM EDT, Arv Evans <arvid.evans@...> wrote:
Jack
The Pi is just another computer that is capable of running all the Linux
programs and even some of the Windows applications.? Any of the
coding environments that are available in Linux, or any of the other
UNIX derivatives, will work on a Pi.?
There is even talk of running Microsoft Windows on a Raspberry Pi. That discussion involves questions regarding whether to run
Windows on top of Linux, or Linux on top of Windows...or whether to
use multi-boot to select which one you want to run.
Arv _._
In Farhan's talk, he showed some C code that he wrote for the RPi. I don't know anything about the tools for writing C on the RPi. What is the coding environment (IDE?) and does it have a source-level debugger?
Jack, W8TEE
--
Jack, W8TEE
--
Jack, W8TEE
|
Thanks, Farhan. I think I can find the make file for it using gcc.
Jack, W8TEE
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021, 12:10:57 PM EDT, Ashhar Farhan <farhanbox@...> wrote:
Jack, You write using your favourite editor, mine is vim. Then, there is a batch file called build that compiles it with gcc. For debugging you can use gdb. It is standard gnu C toolchain. - f
In Farhan's talk, he showed some C code that he wrote for the RPi. I don't know anything about the tools for writing C on the RPi. What is the coding environment (IDE?) and does it have a source-level debugger?
Jack, W8TEE
--
Jack, W8TEE
--
Jack, W8TEE
|
Many moons ago, I did a project on a MicroVax, running VMS. I remember *hating* the serial driver - it was way too smart. It knew about things
that were really application business. It was serious effort to dumb it down to just "send the characters I want you to send and give me verbatim
whatever you receive".
- Jerry
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 2021-05-25 10:27, Jack, W8TEE via groups.io wrote: Jerry. Arv:
I haven't used Linux at all recently. The last time I was on a VAX
machine, we had a version of Unix running, but that was decades ago.
There would be a very steep learning curve for this old dog.
Jack, W8TEE
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021, 12:00:48 PM EDT, Arv Evans
<arvid.evans@...> wrote:
Jack
The Pi is just another computer that is capable of running all the
Linux
programs and even some of the Windows applications. Any of the
coding environments that are available in Linux, or any of the other
UNIX derivatives, will work on a Pi.
There is even talk of running Microsoft Windows on a Raspberry Pi.
That discussion involves questions regarding whether to run
Windows on top of Linux, or Linux on top of Windows...or whether to
use multi-boot to select which one you want to run.
Arv
_._
On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 9:29 AM Jack, W8TEE via groups.io [1]
<jjpurdum@...> wrote:
In Farhan's talk, he showed some C code that he wrote for the RPi. I
don't know anything about the tools for writing C on the RPi. What
is the coding environment (IDE?) and does it have a source-level
debugger?
Jack, W8TEE
--
Jack, W8TEE --
Jack, W8TEE
Links:
------
[1]
[2] /g/BITX20/message/88725
[3] /mt/83078620/243852
[4] /g/BITX20/post
[5] /g/BITX20/editsub/243852
[6] /g/BITX20/leave/10189903/243852/952924773/xyzzy
|
Odd, I programmed on a MicroVAX with VMS 4.7 for years and never had that problem. Both C and Fortran. The documentation sucked tho and a lot of the function names were even too long for the compiler to accept.
Vince - K8ZW.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 05/25/2021 01:35 PM, jerry@... wrote: Many moons ago, I did a project on a MicroVax, running VMS. I remember
*hating* the serial driver - it was way too smart. It knew about things
that were really application business. It was serious effort to dumb it
down to just "send the characters I want you to send and give me verbatim
whatever you receive".
- Jerry
On 2021-05-25 10:27, Jack, W8TEE via groups.io wrote:
Jerry. Arv:
I haven't used Linux at all recently. The last time I was on a VAX
machine, we had a version of Unix running, but that was decades ago.
There would be a very steep learning curve for this old dog.
Jack, W8TEE
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021, 12:00:48 PM EDT, Arv Evans
<arvid.evans@...> wrote:
Jack
The Pi is just another computer that is capable of running all the
Linux
programs and even some of the Windows applications. Any of the
coding environments that are available in Linux, or any of the other
UNIX derivatives, will work on a Pi.
There is even talk of running Microsoft Windows on a Raspberry Pi.
That discussion involves questions regarding whether to run
Windows on top of Linux, or Linux on top of Windows...or whether to
use multi-boot to select which one you want to run.
Arv
_._
On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 9:29 AM Jack, W8TEE via groups.io [1]
<jjpurdum@...> wrote:
In Farhan's talk, he showed some C code that he wrote for the RPi. I
don't know anything about the tools for writing C on the RPi. What
is the coding environment (IDE?) and does it have a source-level
debugger?
Jack, W8TEE
--
Jack, W8TEE --
Jack, W8TEE
Links:
------
[1]
[2] /g/BITX20/message/88725
[3] /mt/83078620/243852
[4] /g/BITX20/post
[5] /g/BITX20/editsub/243852
[6] /g/BITX20/leave/10189903/243852/952924773/xyzzy
--
K8ZW
|
Jack - Linux isn't that hard.? I've just about had it up to
you-know-where with the sloppyware from Washington state.? I am
about to give all their software the boot.? This email is being
sent by the Linux? Thunderbird
Gerry
Sent by the Thunderbird
On 2021-05-25 12:27 p.m., Jack, W8TEE
via groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Jerry. Arv:
I haven't used Linux at all
recently. The last time I was on a VAX machine, we had a
version of Unix running, but that was decades ago. There would
be a very steep learning curve for this old dog.
Jack, W8TEE
Jack
The Pi is just another
computer that is capable of running all the Linux
programs and even some
of the Windows applications.? Any of the
coding environments
that are available in Linux, or any of the other
UNIX derivatives, will
work on a Pi.?
There is even talk of
running Microsoft Windows on a Raspberry Pi.
That discussion
involves questions regarding whether to run
Windows on top of
Linux, or Linux on top of Windows...or whether to
use multi-boot to
select which one you want to run.
Arv
_._
In Farhan's talk, he showed
some C code that he wrote for the RPi. I
don't know anything about the tools for
writing C on the RPi. What is the coding
environment (IDE?) and does it have a
source-level debugger?
Jack, W8TEE
--
Jack, W8TEE
--
Jack, W8TEE
|
Hi Jerry:
I've tried all kinds of IDE's for different languages (Basic, Pascal, C, C++, Java, etc.). When I was teaching Java, the lead faculty member insisted on using Netbeans for the IDE. The rest of us found out that we spent almost 3 weeks of class time teaching how to set up the environment for it. We tried a bunch of IDE's and finally found one that just "stayed out of the way" of teaching Java named BlueJ. It's been over a decade since I taught Java and never did like it...with no pointers and all the runtime checks, I felt like it was C with training wheels. But at least I could teach the language, not the IDE.
You're probably right: I should try Linus again. There again, however, it's the old-dog-new-tricks problem and I just don't know how much sand is left in the glass. I may mess around with both to see what's there.
I think the RPi and Arduino worlds are starting to "blend" in that the new Pico will be hosted on the Arduino IDE. I think that synergy makes sense...
Jack, W8TEE
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021, 12:34:56 PM EDT, Jerry Gaffke via groups.io <jgaffke@...> wrote:
The Arduino IDE also uses the gcc compiler.
The big advance of Arduino was to provide consistent ways to easily talk to low level?
hardware across a number of different processors.
They try to make it easier for noobies to do simple things by automating a few minor details,
which makes it more difficult for everybody else to do not-so-simple things.
In my opinion, Arduino should have aimed at being more transparent about what was going on.
Which, in my opinion, means they really screwed up by going with C++ instead of vanilla C.
I find it a great relief to move back to a unix/linux shell prompt and direct access to the gcc tool chain
after doing battle with Arduino.
Jack has 50 years experience with C, none of the above is news to him.
He is more comfortable with Arduino and C++ than I.
His opinions likely differ.
Jerry, KE7ER
On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 09:17 AM, jerry@... wrote:
C code is generally compiled with gcc. I just edited a file: tryit.c
-- Jack, W8TEE
|
Jack
Actually it is not that complicated.? Most Linux systems have retained the
UNIX core parts that you are familiar with.?A few have had their names
changed (ifconfig is now ipconfig and so on) to look and feel more like
Windows apps.
?Admittedly there are many new additions, but those are mostly MSWindows applications that have been ported by ex MS programmers who are
converting to Linux.
The source and executables for these Windows-like commands may not be in
the standard places, but a look at $PATH will tell you where the executables
might reside.? Apparently ex-Microsoft programmers do not understand where
specific type files should reside, so the UNIX/Linux file hierarchy has suffered.
Arv _._
Jerry. Arv:
I haven't used Linux at all recently. The last time I was on a VAX machine, we had a version of Unix running, but that was decades ago. There would be a very steep learning curve for this old dog.
Jack, W8TEE
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021, 12:00:48 PM EDT, Arv Evans < arvid.evans@...> wrote:
Jack
The Pi is just another computer that is capable of running all the Linux
programs and even some of the Windows applications.? Any of the
coding environments that are available in Linux, or any of the other
UNIX derivatives, will work on a Pi.?
There is even talk of running Microsoft Windows on a Raspberry Pi. That discussion involves questions regarding whether to run
Windows on top of Linux, or Linux on top of Windows...or whether to
use multi-boot to select which one you want to run.
Arv _._
In Farhan's talk, he showed some C code that he wrote for the RPi. I don't know anything about the tools for writing C on the RPi. What is the coding environment (IDE?) and does it have a source-level debugger?
Jack, W8TEE
--
Jack, W8TEE
--
Jack, W8TEE
|
Jack,
I've never liked IDE's, or GUI's in general, they create too much brain clutter.
I just code in vi (or vim) and compile at a shell prompt, exactly as I did 40 years go.
A rather obstinate dinosaur, and proud of it.
There's lots of flavors of linux out there, different ways of installing packages and drivers,
different user interfaces, different pretty much everything.??
My suggestion:?
Get an RPi-4 with 4 or 8 gig of RAM, get the recommended SD-Card
and use the recommended linux OS? (used to be called Raspbian, now called Raspberry Pi OS).
Hook it up to a nice big 1080p HDMI monitor, perhaps two of them if you have a big work desk.
Give it a USB keyboard and mouse that you are comfortable with.
This can be your daily driver, for web browsing, watching cat videos, checking email,
editing spreadsheets and word docs.? Play with python and the C compiler.
Install the Arduino IDE for messing with Nano's and Teensy's.
Most of that can be done in the GUI, just like under MacOS or MSWinders.
Using a linux GUI is almost indistinguishable from those other OS's for most tasks.
The classic Unix shell prompt (like the MSDos C> prompt but far more powerful)
is what frightens some small children. You can mostly avoid the shell prompt.
The few times when you can't, just look up what you?need to do on the web,
then copy-and-paste their example into the command line.
The payoff is that when you play with something like Farhan's new SDR radio,
the processor that controls it can have exactly the same environment as the one
you are now used to.? In fact, you can have that same environment on a dinky
little $5 RPi-Zero (well, as much of it as can be stuffed into 256meg of RAM),
and use that as you might a Nano on new projects.? When you need to fix something,
hook up a monitor and keyboard to the RPi-Zero, edit the program, and recompile
with gcc.? Just like on a real computer.
The other payoff is that even an RPi-4 costs under $100 to replace when somebody?
accidentally steps on it.? And is mainstream enough that it or something like it
will be available for decades, with lots of online help if you get stuck on something.
Unless you're a gamer or have a job doing video editing, an RPi probably does
everything you might ask of it.
So you can forget all that cruft about VAX's and MSDos and ATMega328's.
Makes room for this new RPi trick, and then you're good for the 2020's.
Jerry, KE7ER
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 11:02 AM, Jack, W8TEE wrote:
Hi Jerry:
?
I've tried all kinds of IDE's for different languages (Basic, Pascal, C, C++, Java, etc.). When I was teaching Java, the lead faculty member insisted on using Netbeans for the IDE. The rest of us found out that we spent almost 3 weeks of class time teaching how to set up the environment for it. We tried a bunch of IDE's and finally found one that just "stayed out of the way" of teaching Java named BlueJ. It's been over a decade since I taught Java and never did like it...with no pointers and all the runtime checks, I felt like it was C with training wheels. But at least I could teach the language, not the IDE.
?
You're probably right: I should try Linus again. There again, however, it's the old-dog-new-tricks problem and I just don't know how much sand is left in the glass. I may mess around with both to see what's there.
?
I think the RPi and Arduino worlds are starting to "blend" in that the new Pico will be hosted on the Arduino IDE. I think that synergy makes sense...
?
Jack, W8TEE
|
jack, pico is still a microcontroller without an operating system. the raspberry pi runs the ubuntu desktop operating?system. you could run visual studio on it if you like to program in it. the Pi and the Pico are entirely different systems with no overlap of functionality. - f
Jack,
I've never liked IDE's, or GUI's in general, they create too much brain clutter.
I just code in vi (or vim) and compile at a shell prompt, exactly as I did 40 years go.
A rather obstinate dinosaur, and proud of it.
There's lots of flavors of linux out there, different ways of installing packages and drivers,
different user interfaces, different pretty much everything.??
My suggestion:?
Get an RPi-4 with 4 or 8 gig of RAM, get the recommended SD-Card
and use the recommended linux OS? (used to be called Raspbian, now called Raspberry Pi OS).
Hook it up to a nice big 1080p HDMI monitor, perhaps two of them if you have a big work desk.
Give it a USB keyboard and mouse that you are comfortable with.
This can be your daily driver, for web browsing, watching cat videos, checking email,
editing spreadsheets and word docs.? Play with python and the C compiler.
Install the Arduino IDE for messing with Nano's and Teensy's.
Most of that can be done in the GUI, just like under MacOS or MSWinders.
Using a linux GUI is almost indistinguishable from those other OS's for most tasks.
The classic Unix shell prompt (like the MSDos C> prompt but far more powerful)
is what frightens some small children. You can mostly avoid the shell prompt.
The few times when you can't, just look up what you?need to do on the web,
then copy-and-paste their example into the command line.
The payoff is that when you play with something like Farhan's new SDR radio,
the processor that controls it can have exactly the same environment as the one
you are now used to.? In fact, you can have that same environment on a dinky
little $5 RPi-Zero (well, as much of it as can be stuffed into 256meg of RAM),
and use that as you might a Nano on new projects.? When you need to fix something,
hook up a monitor and keyboard to the RPi-Zero, edit the program, and recompile
with gcc.? Just like on a real computer.
The other payoff is that even an RPi-4 costs under $100 to replace when somebody?
accidentally steps on it.? And is mainstream enough that it or something like it
will be available for decades, with lots of online help if you get stuck on something.
Unless you're a gamer or have a job doing video editing, an RPi probably does
everything you might ask of it.
So you can forget all that cruft about VAX's and MSDos and ATMega328's.
Makes room for this new RPi trick, and then you're good for the 2020's.
Jerry, KE7ER
On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 11:02 AM, Jack, W8TEE wrote:
Hi Jerry:
?
I've tried all kinds of IDE's for different languages (Basic, Pascal, C, C++, Java, etc.). When I was teaching Java, the lead faculty member insisted on using Netbeans for the IDE. The rest of us found out that we spent almost 3 weeks of class time teaching how to set up the environment for it. We tried a bunch of IDE's and finally found one that just "stayed out of the way" of teaching Java named BlueJ. It's been over a decade since I taught Java and never did like it...with no pointers and all the runtime checks, I felt like it was C with training wheels. But at least I could teach the language, not the IDE.
?
You're probably right: I should try Linus again. There again, however, it's the old-dog-new-tricks problem and I just don't know how much sand is left in the glass. I may mess around with both to see what's there.
?
I think the RPi and Arduino worlds are starting to "blend" in that the new Pico will be hosted on the Arduino IDE. I think that synergy makes sense...
?
Jack, W8TEE
|
Jack
Last time I worked on a VAX machine was as recent as 1983.? The
OS for that particular set of machines was UNIX, ported to the VAX-7800
by Lachman Technologies.
Arv _._
Jerry. Arv:
I haven't used Linux at all recently. The last time I was on a VAX machine, we had a version of Unix running, but that was decades ago. There would be a very steep learning curve for this old dog.
Jack, W8TEE
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021, 12:00:48 PM EDT, Arv Evans < arvid.evans@...> wrote:
Jack
The Pi is just another computer that is capable of running all the Linux
programs and even some of the Windows applications.? Any of the
coding environments that are available in Linux, or any of the other
UNIX derivatives, will work on a Pi.?
There is even talk of running Microsoft Windows on a Raspberry Pi. That discussion involves questions regarding whether to run
Windows on top of Linux, or Linux on top of Windows...or whether to
use multi-boot to select which one you want to run.
Arv _._
In Farhan's talk, he showed some C code that he wrote for the RPi. I don't know anything about the tools for writing C on the RPi. What is the coding environment (IDE?) and does it have a source-level debugger?
Jack, W8TEE
--
Jack, W8TEE
--
Jack, W8TEE
|
Arv:
I was a little later than that and they were in the process of moving to VMS.
Jack, W8TEE
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021, 2:57:00 PM EDT, Arv Evans <arvid.evans@...> wrote:
Jack
Last time I worked on a VAX machine was as recent as 1983.? The
OS for that particular set of machines was UNIX, ported to the VAX-7800
by Lachman Technologies.
Arv _._
Jerry. Arv:
I haven't used Linux at all recently. The last time I was on a VAX machine, we had a version of Unix running, but that was decades ago. There would be a very steep learning curve for this old dog.
Jack, W8TEE
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021, 12:00:48 PM EDT, Arv Evans < arvid.evans@...> wrote:
Jack
The Pi is just another computer that is capable of running all the Linux
programs and even some of the Windows applications.? Any of the
coding environments that are available in Linux, or any of the other
UNIX derivatives, will work on a Pi.?
There is even talk of running Microsoft Windows on a Raspberry Pi. That discussion involves questions regarding whether to run
Windows on top of Linux, or Linux on top of Windows...or whether to
use multi-boot to select which one you want to run.
Arv _._
In Farhan's talk, he showed some C code that he wrote for the RPi. I don't know anything about the tools for writing C on the RPi. What is the coding environment (IDE?) and does it have a source-level debugger?
Jack, W8TEE
--
Jack, W8TEE
--
Jack, W8TEE
--
Jack, W8TEE
|
Real programmers do not use IDE's or eat kisch.??? 8-/
_._
Jack,
I've never liked IDE's, or GUI's in general, they create too much brain clutter.
I just code in vi (or vim) and compile at a shell prompt, exactly as I did 40 years go.
A rather obstinate dinosaur, and proud of it.
There's lots of flavors of linux out there, different ways of installing packages and drivers,
different user interfaces, different pretty much everything.??
My suggestion:?
Get an RPi-4 with 4 or 8 gig of RAM, get the recommended SD-Card
and use the recommended linux OS? (used to be called Raspbian, now called Raspberry Pi OS).
Hook it up to a nice big 1080p HDMI monitor, perhaps two of them if you have a big work desk.
Give it a USB keyboard and mouse that you are comfortable with.
This can be your daily driver, for web browsing, watching cat videos, checking email,
editing spreadsheets and word docs.? Play with python and the C compiler.
Install the Arduino IDE for messing with Nano's and Teensy's.
Most of that can be done in the GUI, just like under MacOS or MSWinders.
Using a linux GUI is almost indistinguishable from those other OS's for most tasks.
The classic Unix shell prompt (like the MSDos C> prompt but far more powerful)
is what frightens some small children. You can mostly avoid the shell prompt.
The few times when you can't, just look up what you?need to do on the web,
then copy-and-paste their example into the command line.
The payoff is that when you play with something like Farhan's new SDR radio,
the processor that controls it can have exactly the same environment as the one
you are now used to.? In fact, you can have that same environment on a dinky
little $5 RPi-Zero (well, as much of it as can be stuffed into 256meg of RAM),
and use that as you might a Nano on new projects.? When you need to fix something,
hook up a monitor and keyboard to the RPi-Zero, edit the program, and recompile
with gcc.? Just like on a real computer.
The other payoff is that even an RPi-4 costs under $100 to replace when somebody?
accidentally steps on it.? And is mainstream enough that it or something like it
will be available for decades, with lots of online help if you get stuck on something.
Unless you're a gamer or have a job doing video editing, an RPi probably does
everything you might ask of it.
So you can forget all that cruft about VAX's and MSDos and ATMega328's.
Makes room for this new RPi trick, and then you're good for the 2020's.
Jerry, KE7ER
On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 11:02 AM, Jack, W8TEE wrote:
Hi Jerry:
?
I've tried all kinds of IDE's for different languages (Basic, Pascal, C, C++, Java, etc.). When I was teaching Java, the lead faculty member insisted on using Netbeans for the IDE. The rest of us found out that we spent almost 3 weeks of class time teaching how to set up the environment for it. We tried a bunch of IDE's and finally found one that just "stayed out of the way" of teaching Java named BlueJ. It's been over a decade since I taught Java and never did like it...with no pointers and all the runtime checks, I felt like it was C with training wheels. But at least I could teach the language, not the IDE.
?
You're probably right: I should try Linus again. There again, however, it's the old-dog-new-tricks problem and I just don't know how much sand is left in the glass. I may mess around with both to see what's there.
?
I think the RPi and Arduino worlds are starting to "blend" in that the new Pico will be hosted on the Arduino IDE. I think that synergy makes sense...
?
Jack, W8TEE
|
Farhan:
I don't have a pico yet. Given what you just said, do you think the advent of the pico, then, is just an attempt to move some Makers to an RPi board in an IDE that many have already used? If not, it seems to be a step backwards.
Jack, W8TEE
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021, 2:56:25 PM EDT, Ashhar Farhan <farhanbox@...> wrote:
jack, pico is still a microcontroller without an operating system. the raspberry pi runs the ubuntu desktop operating?system. you could run visual studio on it if you like to program in it. the Pi and the Pico are entirely different systems with no overlap of functionality. - f
Jack,
I've never liked IDE's, or GUI's in general, they create too much brain clutter.
I just code in vi (or vim) and compile at a shell prompt, exactly as I did 40 years go.
A rather obstinate dinosaur, and proud of it.
There's lots of flavors of linux out there, different ways of installing packages and drivers,
different user interfaces, different pretty much everything.??
My suggestion:?
Get an RPi-4 with 4 or 8 gig of RAM, get the recommended SD-Card
and use the recommended linux OS? (used to be called Raspbian, now called Raspberry Pi OS).
Hook it up to a nice big 1080p HDMI monitor, perhaps two of them if you have a big work desk.
Give it a USB keyboard and mouse that you are comfortable with.
This can be your daily driver, for web browsing, watching cat videos, checking email,
editing spreadsheets and word docs.? Play with python and the C compiler.
Install the Arduino IDE for messing with Nano's and Teensy's.
Most of that can be done in the GUI, just like under MacOS or MSWinders.
Using a linux GUI is almost indistinguishable from those other OS's for most tasks.
The classic Unix shell prompt (like the MSDos C> prompt but far more powerful)
is what frightens some small children. You can mostly avoid the shell prompt.
The few times when you can't, just look up what you?need to do on the web,
then copy-and-paste their example into the command line.
The payoff is that when you play with something like Farhan's new SDR radio,
the processor that controls it can have exactly the same environment as the one
you are now used to.? In fact, you can have that same environment on a dinky
little $5 RPi-Zero (well, as much of it as can be stuffed into 256meg of RAM),
and use that as you might a Nano on new projects.? When you need to fix something,
hook up a monitor and keyboard to the RPi-Zero, edit the program, and recompile
with gcc.? Just like on a real computer.
The other payoff is that even an RPi-4 costs under $100 to replace when somebody?
accidentally steps on it.? And is mainstream enough that it or something like it
will be available for decades, with lots of online help if you get stuck on something.
Unless you're a gamer or have a job doing video editing, an RPi probably does
everything you might ask of it.
So you can forget all that cruft about VAX's and MSDos and ATMega328's.
Makes room for this new RPi trick, and then you're good for the 2020's.
Jerry, KE7ER
On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 11:02 AM, Jack, W8TEE wrote:
Hi Jerry:
?
I've tried all kinds of IDE's for different languages (Basic, Pascal, C, C++, Java, etc.). When I was teaching Java, the lead faculty member insisted on using Netbeans for the IDE. The rest of us found out that we spent almost 3 weeks of class time teaching how to set up the environment for it. We tried a bunch of IDE's and finally found one that just "stayed out of the way" of teaching Java named BlueJ. It's been over a decade since I taught Java and never did like it...with no pointers and all the runtime checks, I felt like it was C with training wheels. But at least I could teach the language, not the IDE.
?
You're probably right: I should try Linus again. There again, however, it's the old-dog-new-tricks problem and I just don't know how much sand is left in the glass. I may mess around with both to see what's there.
?
I think the RPi and Arduino worlds are starting to "blend" in that the new Pico will be hosted on the Arduino IDE. I think that synergy makes sense...
?
Jack, W8TEE
--
Jack, W8TEE
|
I been through this battle before. Purdue is a little unusual in that it had two "CS" departments. The one is where the real propeller heads are housed and they were doing some real bleeding-edge stuff. I was in the dumber department that formally was called Computer Technology department. A lot of us in the CT department used the command line at one time for development. The problem was that most of the software houses were using an IDE of some sort (e.g., Netbeans, VS, etc.) and to market our students, employers wanted experience with "their" IDE. Because most of the software houses back them were either Java or C++ shops,. we gave experience with Netbeans and Visual Studio.
When I retired, I continued to use VS for consulting. However, one project was designed to use the 328, which is when I was introduced to the Arduino IDE. Now, I'd have to re-learn NB and VS if I wanted to go back.
I've also discovered I like kisch...
Jack, W8TEE
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021, 3:03:22 PM EDT, Arv Evans <arvid.evans@...> wrote:
Real programmers do not use IDE's or eat kisch.??? 8-/
_._
Jack,
I've never liked IDE's, or GUI's in general, they create too much brain clutter.
I just code in vi (or vim) and compile at a shell prompt, exactly as I did 40 years go.
A rather obstinate dinosaur, and proud of it.
There's lots of flavors of linux out there, different ways of installing packages and drivers,
different user interfaces, different pretty much everything.??
My suggestion:?
Get an RPi-4 with 4 or 8 gig of RAM, get the recommended SD-Card
and use the recommended linux OS? (used to be called Raspbian, now called Raspberry Pi OS).
Hook it up to a nice big 1080p HDMI monitor, perhaps two of them if you have a big work desk.
Give it a USB keyboard and mouse that you are comfortable with.
This can be your daily driver, for web browsing, watching cat videos, checking email,
editing spreadsheets and word docs.? Play with python and the C compiler.
Install the Arduino IDE for messing with Nano's and Teensy's.
Most of that can be done in the GUI, just like under MacOS or MSWinders.
Using a linux GUI is almost indistinguishable from those other OS's for most tasks.
The classic Unix shell prompt (like the MSDos C> prompt but far more powerful)
is what frightens some small children. You can mostly avoid the shell prompt.
The few times when you can't, just look up what you?need to do on the web,
then copy-and-paste their example into the command line.
The payoff is that when you play with something like Farhan's new SDR radio,
the processor that controls it can have exactly the same environment as the one
you are now used to.? In fact, you can have that same environment on a dinky
little $5 RPi-Zero (well, as much of it as can be stuffed into 256meg of RAM),
and use that as you might a Nano on new projects.? When you need to fix something,
hook up a monitor and keyboard to the RPi-Zero, edit the program, and recompile
with gcc.? Just like on a real computer.
The other payoff is that even an RPi-4 costs under $100 to replace when somebody?
accidentally steps on it.? And is mainstream enough that it or something like it
will be available for decades, with lots of online help if you get stuck on something.
Unless you're a gamer or have a job doing video editing, an RPi probably does
everything you might ask of it.
So you can forget all that cruft about VAX's and MSDos and ATMega328's.
Makes room for this new RPi trick, and then you're good for the 2020's.
Jerry, KE7ER
On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 11:02 AM, Jack, W8TEE wrote:
Hi Jerry:
?
I've tried all kinds of IDE's for different languages (Basic, Pascal, C, C++, Java, etc.). When I was teaching Java, the lead faculty member insisted on using Netbeans for the IDE. The rest of us found out that we spent almost 3 weeks of class time teaching how to set up the environment for it. We tried a bunch of IDE's and finally found one that just "stayed out of the way" of teaching Java named BlueJ. It's been over a decade since I taught Java and never did like it...with no pointers and all the runtime checks, I felt like it was C with training wheels. But at least I could teach the language, not the IDE.
?
You're probably right: I should try Linus again. There again, however, it's the old-dog-new-tricks problem and I just don't know how much sand is left in the glass. I may mess around with both to see what's there.
?
I think the RPi and Arduino worlds are starting to "blend" in that the new Pico will be hosted on the Arduino IDE. I think that synergy makes sense...
?
Jack, W8TEE
--
Jack, W8TEE
|
