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Does anyone know if these are VIshay parts?
I would tend to buy IRF510's from Mouser or Digikey.
MPJA may be ok, but there is no indication of who the manufacturer is.
The ebay/aliexpress IRF510's are questionable.
Some work fine as low speed FET switches as the IRF510 was originally designed for,
but operation in a 30mhz linear amp not so much.
Jerry, KE7ER
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At $2.95 for ten, it's worth experimenting with them.
Bob ¡ª KK5R
On Monday, April 12, 2021, 1:17:14 PM EDT, Jerry Gaffke via groups.io <jgaffke@...> wrote:
Does anyone know if these are VIshay parts?
I would tend to buy IRF510's from Mouser or Digikey.
MPJA may be ok, but there is no indication of who the manufacturer is.
The ebay/aliexpress IRF510's are questionable.
Some work fine as low speed FET switches as the IRF510 was originally designed for,
but operation in a 30mhz linear amp not so much.
Jerry, KE7ER
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Best to ask MPJA.? If you need a particular manufacturer, it's better than that to order from a Tier 1 disti who WILL give you your manufacturer of choice.
IIRC, International Rectifier introduced the IRF-510 (ya know, IRF = International Rectifier FET....) and these could be surplus from them, which should make them good at RF.
Or they could be cheap Chinese knockoffs like the rest of the fleabay and Alibaba gaaah-baghe.
For $0.40 each, they may be worth taking a chance if you have a low-speed application in reserve,
73
Jim N6OTQ
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On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 01:17 PM, Jerry Gaffke wrote:
The ebay/aliexpress IRF510's are questionable.
Some work fine as low speed FET switches as the IRF510 was originally designed for,
but operation in a 30mhz linear amp not so much.
And what would be wrong with buying parts that are working as original intended? Just because we hams are used to using parts outside of their spec doesn't mean that parts that work inside their original specifications are junk. If one wants well performing RF FETs one needs to buy them. The RD15VH1 is such a beast that is a mass produced FET that has been screened for reliable RF performance. I used to work for a company that made RF generators for the semiconductor industry. We used switching FET's for 13.5, 27.12 and 40.68 Mhz we bought from APT and Motorola. Those were of the shelf parts but screened at the manufacturer or at the incoming inspection for RF performance. The actual usable return out of a production batch was like 45%, the rest was not usable in RF applications and were used for switching power supplies. So if I would use IRF510s to replace the ones I have, I would buy 50 of the cheap ones, make a small test fixture of a single transistor amp with the possibility to clamp the transistor in place instead solder and then screen them for performance. That would also give the opportunity to create matched pairs. There are ample of projects the non performers can be used in from relay switches to power supplies. Most likely though, If mine ever die I will buy RD15VH1's and replace the 510s with real RF FETs. I.M.O. the better performance is worth the extra cost John
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On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 01:25 PM, Bob Lunsford wrote:
At $2.95 for ten, it's worth experimenting with them.
?
Bob ¡ª KK5R
For that price its worth buying a couple hundred, screen them for RF performance, offer the good ones to the group and sell the junk on e-bay lol. I wish I had the time, I would do it. Retirement can not come fast enough lol, couple more years. John
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Should have been RD15HVF1 lol? strange it doesn't let me edit my post.
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John,
The Vishay's (and the IR parts before them) work fine in spite of the fact that they were not designed for use at RF.
Many amateurs have built linear amps with them, and I applaud that.
Cost on Mouser is $0.80 single piece, $0.30 if you buy a reel.
There are many IRF510 clones out there that simply don't work at RF due to high gate capacitance.
The assumption made is that they are being used for low frequency switching tasks.
Buy a couple hundred IRF510's of unknown manufacture for a budget price
and I've a hunch that a total of zero will screen for good RF performance.
Good luck.
Jerry, KE7ER
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Show quoted text
On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 01:25 PM, Bob Lunsford wrote:
At $2.95 for ten, it's worth experimenting with them.
?
Bob ¡ª KK5R
For that price its worth buying a couple hundred, screen them for RF performance, offer the good ones to the group and sell the junk on e-bay lol. I wish I had the time, I would do it. Retirement can not come fast enough lol, couple more years. John On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 01:01 PM, John Cunliffe W7ZQ wrote:
On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 01:17 PM, Jerry Gaffke wrote:
The ebay/aliexpress IRF510's are questionable.
Some work fine as low speed FET switches as the IRF510 was originally designed for,
but operation in a 30mhz linear amp not so much.
And what would be wrong with buying parts that are working as original intended? Just because we hams are used to using parts outside of their spec doesn't mean that parts that work inside their original specifications are junk. If one wants well performing RF FETs one needs to buy them. The RD15VH1 is such a beast that is a mass produced FET that has been screened for reliable RF performance. I used to work for a company that made RF generators for the semiconductor industry. We used switching FET's for 13.5, 27.12 and 40.68 Mhz we bought from APT and Motorola. Those were of the shelf parts but screened at the manufacturer or at the incoming inspection for RF performance. The actual usable return out of a production batch was like 45%, the rest was not usable in RF applications and were used for switching power supplies.
So if I would use IRF510s to replace the ones I have, I would buy 50 of the cheap ones, make a small test fixture of a single transistor amp with the possibility to clamp the transistor in place instead solder and then screen them for performance. That would also give the opportunity to create matched pairs.
There are ample of projects the non performers can be used in from relay switches to power supplies. Most likely though, If mine ever die I will buy RD15VH1's and replace the 510s with real RF FETs. I.M.O. the better performance is worth the extra cost
John
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There? is a huge flag that the items shown are not even in a real photo. When you click on the RH image what comes up is a 3d impression with non real codes on it. So what the hell - do they even have them to photograph. I hate it when semi conductor vendors do this. If it is an Ebay seller? I don't want to know as likely he is selling product he does not have in stock? but he can get at the local bazaar .? That is forbidden in Ebay vendor policy, he can be struck off Ebay for doing that if you report it.
IRFz24 is a nice RF subs for the IRF510.? It has been used to produce 45 W PEP in 7 Mhz ccts? in ARRL supervised tests.? ?They are around 80c each from Tier one suppliers. Also they will come out of the same tube in general so are likely to be closer matched. Thermally they are about 30 percent better. Don' t go past the STP60N Mosfet either as used in the Texas topper RF amp. it has Cin intermediate between the IRF510 an the? z24 as mentioned above.? What world of possibilities to choose from !!!
TE. Fidler?
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It is worth noting that Hans SUmmers of Qrp Labs will use the Vishay IRF510s and none other. He did a lot of tests before he came to that conclusion.
If you go to him for spare parts for a Qrp Labs kit - that is what he will sell you.? I don't believe he offers them as a? general on line sale part because of his restock costs.?
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Tim:
I've purchased from MPJA numerous times and never had an issue. As to the catalog photos, I just think they're lazy and not doing the photos, but are pulling them from a stock photo somewhere.
Jack, W8TEE
On Tuesday, April 13, 2021, 12:46:58 PM EDT, Timothy Fidler <engstr@...> wrote:
There? is a huge flag that the items shown are not even in a real photo. When you click on the RH image what comes up is a 3d impression with non real codes on it. So what the hell - do they even have them to photograph. I hate it when semi conductor vendors do this. If it is an Ebay seller? I don't want to know as likely he is selling product he does not have in stock? but he can get at the local bazaar .? That is forbidden in Ebay vendor policy, he can be struck off Ebay for doing that if you report it.
IRFz24 is a nice RF subs for the IRF510.? It has been used to produce 45 W PEP in 7 Mhz ccts? in ARRL supervised tests.? ?They are around 80c each from Tier one suppliers. Also they will come out of the same tube in general so are likely to be closer matched. Thermally they are about 30 percent better. Don' t go past the STP60N Mosfet either as used in the Texas topper RF amp. it has Cin intermediate between the IRF510 an the? z24 as mentioned above.? What world of possibilities to choose from !!!
TE. Fidler?
-- Jack, W8TEE
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The IRFz24 might be made to work well at 7mhz,?but is not a drop in replacement on the uBitx.
Be prepared to give it significantly more drive, especially if you hope to run it at 30mhz.
Total gate charge of the IRF510 is 8.3nC
Total gate charge of the IRFz24 is 25nC
The IRF510 is hard to beat as a cheap NFET for an HF amp.
Jerry, KE7ER
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On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 09:46 AM, Timothy Fidler wrote:
IRFz24 is a nice RF subs for the IRF510.? It has been used to produce 45 W PEP in 7 Mhz ccts? in ARRL supervised tests
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Technology has improved a lot since the introduction of IRF510 devices in the early 1980s.? Raw material grading, dhigh resolution handling and laser trimming has
become standard.? IRF has apparently licensed manufacturing of IRF devices to
Samsung and Vishay, and probably several others.? This would seem to indicate
that other manufacturer's clones of the original IRF device may be improved
models.? It would take some highly technical testing to determine if a particular
IRF510 device is as good as the original IRF device, or if it exceeds the quality
of its original design.
Large marketing organizations like Digikey or Mouser do not have testing facilities
for determining as-manufactured quality of one source over another.? We have
to trust that they have chosen the best quality and least-cost manufacturers.
Some on-line sales outlets are focused on buying and selling of end-of-run surplus components.? If these items are surplus for space industry or similar
high reliability projects they could be best-in-the-industry.? Or, if they are
surplus from the toy industry they could be worst-of-breed components.?
For the IRF510 devices it might be possible to build a decent test jig with
square-wave input, very high frequency scope monitoring, and calibration
to verify test results.? This is probably way beyond the capability of most
of us, and could be expensive to build.? Thoughts in this area are along the
line of using a calibrated and tuned detector at various harmonic frequency
points to see how much of the input harmonic energy is being output, and
at what level.? It gets complicated very quickly.
Arv _._
On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 10:49 AM Timothy Fidler < engstr@...> wrote: It is worth noting that Hans SUmmers of Qrp Labs will use the Vishay IRF510s and none other. He did a lot of tests before he came to that conclusion.
If you go to him for spare parts for a Qrp Labs kit - that is what he will sell you.? I don't believe he offers them as a? general on line sale part because of his restock costs.?
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The WA2EBY amp is the first successful broadband HF linear amp
using the IRF510's that I'm aware of.
Once that was working well with IR devices, there was some debate
why Vishay devices did not work so well.
Eventually, with a minor circuit change somebody figured out how to make both devices work fine.
Cheap switching NFET's are mostly meant for use at under a MHz.
For such use, it might be fine if some overseas vendor decides to re-label some
surplus NFET's that have a threshold of around 4v and can handle 10A of Id and 100V of Vd.
Running at 30mhz is a whole other matter.
Paul Harden, NA5N, wrote some good stuff 20 years ago on using the IRF510
for class C, D, E, and F amps (not for linear amps).
? ??
? ??
? ??
The final paragraph of that first link is especially entertaining.
IR no longer makes die for other manufacturers to package up,
If anybody knows of a good manufacturer other than Vishay, I'd like to hear about it.
A web search for "Samsung IRF510" doesn't come up with any vendors I'd be willing to buy from.
Perhaps NightFire makes a good IRF510.
They are being offered by a well known vendor here in the US.? ;-)
? ??
Jerry, KE7ER
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On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 10:27 AM, Arv Evans wrote:
Technology has improved a lot since the introduction of IRF510 devices in the early 1980s.? Raw material grading, dhigh resolution handling and laser trimming has
become standard.? IRF has apparently licensed manufacturing of IRF devices to
Samsung and Vishay, and probably several others.? This would seem to indicate
that other manufacturer's clones of the original IRF device may be improved
models.? It would take some highly technical testing to determine if a particular
IRF510 device is as good as the original IRF device, or if it exceeds the quality
of its original design.
?
Large marketing organizations like Digikey or Mouser do not have testing facilities
for determining as-manufactured quality of one source over another.? We have
to trust that they have chosen the best quality and least-cost manufacturers.
?
Some on-line sales outlets are focused on buying and selling of end-of-run
surplus components.? If these items are surplus for space industry or similar
high reliability projects they could be best-in-the-industry.? Or, if they are
surplus from the toy industry they could be worst-of-breed components.?
?
For the IRF510 devices it might be possible to build a decent test jig with
square-wave input, very high frequency scope monitoring, and calibration
to verify test results.? This is probably way beyond the capability of most
of us, and could be expensive to build.? Thoughts in this area are along the
line of using a calibrated and tuned detector at various harmonic frequency
points to see how much of the input harmonic energy is being output, and
at what level.? It gets complicated very quickly.
?
Arv
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Digikey has the Vishay IRF510 for less than a dollar.
?
<
?
I met WA2EBY at a Hamfest years ago. I asked him what modeling software did he use when designing the amplifier, He replied "An X-ACTO knife and a piece of copper clad PCB."
?
Mike N2MS
?
?
On 04/13/2021 3:05 PM Jerry Gaffke via groups.io <jgaffke@...> wrote:
?
?
The WA2EBY amp is the first successful broadband HF linear amp
using the IRF510's that I'm aware of.
Once that was working well with IR devices, there was some debate
why Vishay devices did not work so well.
Eventually, with a minor circuit change somebody figured out how to make both devices work fine.
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Just tried the link and got a 404 result, so went to digikey, looked the irf510 up and got a status page saying "0" in stock, and "obsolete" from them.
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A search for IRF510 on the digikey website finds 11 hits.
Anything that is not Vishay is "obsolete".
Half are in a D2PAK case.
Here's the one you want, from Vishay in a TO220 case, they have 359 in stock:
? ??
Item?78-IRF510PBF-BE3 on Mouser is that same VIshay part, slightly cheaper, they have 4040 in stock.
? ?
Mouser also has a bunch of other IRF510's, half of them obsolete, many of them in the D2PAK case.
Jameco says the manufacturer of their IRF510 is "Major Brands", which I assume means
they buy from a number of sources, you get pot luck.? I doubt we've heard the name of whoever manufactures them.
MPJA makes no claim about who makes theirs, so again they likely switch around:
Jerry, KE7ER
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On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 07:25 PM, john wrote:
Just tried the link and got a 404 result, so went to digikey, looked the irf510 up and got a status page saying "0" in stock, and "obsolete" from them.
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Vishay bought International Rectifier. The Vishay parts are the direct lineal descendents of the original IRF parts.
Technology has improved a lot since the introduction of IRF510 devices in the early 1980s.? Raw material grading, dhigh resolution handling and laser trimming has
become standard.? IRF has apparently licensed manufacturing of IRF devices to
Samsung and Vishay, and probably several others.? This would seem to indicate
that other manufacturer's clones of the original IRF device may be improved
models.? It would take some highly technical testing to determine if a particular
IRF510 device is as good as the original IRF device, or if it exceeds the quality
of its original design.
Large marketing organizations like Digikey or Mouser do not have testing facilities
for determining as-manufactured quality of one source over another.? We have
to trust that they have chosen the best quality and least-cost manufacturers.
Some on-line sales outlets are focused on buying and selling of end-of-run surplus components.? If these items are surplus for space industry or similar
high reliability projects they could be best-in-the-industry.? Or, if they are
surplus from the toy industry they could be worst-of-breed components.?
For the IRF510 devices it might be possible to build a decent test jig with
square-wave input, very high frequency scope monitoring, and calibration
to verify test results.? This is probably way beyond the capability of most
of us, and could be expensive to build.? Thoughts in this area are along the
line of using a calibrated and tuned detector at various harmonic frequency
points to see how much of the input harmonic energy is being output, and
at what level.? It gets complicated very quickly.
Arv _._
On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 10:49 AM Timothy Fidler < engstr@...> wrote: It is worth noting that Hans SUmmers of Qrp Labs will use the Vishay IRF510s and none other. He did a lot of tests before he came to that conclusion.
If you go to him for spare parts for a Qrp Labs kit - that is what he will sell you.? I don't believe he offers them as a? general on line sale part because of his restock costs.?
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JG I am well aware of all that in fact the Gate capacitance of the IRFz24 is about double that of the IRF 510 BUT? in general these will be going in a bolt on amp that has about 4-5 Wats pushed up the Wazoo. so you and afford a? bit of loss to gate capacitance at least up to and including 15 Mhz.??
In situations where you want real control over Cin and reproducible characteristics you go for the 6 dollar a piece Mitsubshi? RF qualified Mosfets . Basically on cost there are not many other options. At that price you get source = Ground tab and a device that runs much much cooler as a result .
Where the Z24 shines is? 1. It is not often counterfeited.? and 2. Thermally it is a lot better if you look at? the data sheets. So if you have a pair of each in the same amp both running 30W out with marginal heat sinking then the IRF510s will expire a lot earlier as? they might be running 25 C hotter than the IRFz24s for the same Po.
My tuppence worth.? TEF?
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Shirley is right, Vishay bought IR.
My story about the WA2EBY amp not working well at first with some non-IR IRF510 is vaguely mis-remembered.
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On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 03:10 AM, Shirley Dulcey KE1L wrote:
Vishay bought International Rectifier. The Vishay parts are the direct lineal descendents of the original IRF parts.
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Bob Lunsford
john rader
Shirley Dulcey KE1L