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Crystal Filter Input and Output Impedance Measurements


 

I have just designed and built up a 10MHz crystal filter. I am trying to measure the input and output impedance to see if it matches with the theoretical value of 158ohms AADE shows so I can match it correctly to my 50ohm RF amplifier. For testing and learning purposes I am trying to match this filter to 50ohms each end so I can connect it to my test equipment and minimise ripple.

I found a very helpful page as shown below:

http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php?topic=97625.0

The fourth reply down by Chuck WD4HXG looks to be what I need to do but I am a little unsure of the correct layout for the L resistor network.? Chuck says:

"Use an input L resistor network made with a 56ohm shunt resistor and a series 5K potentiometer between the filter and the 56 ohm resistor. Same thing on the output. Another resistor L network with the series 5K pot connected to the filter and a shunt 56 ohm resistor to ground."

Should the layout be as shown below (the in and out both have 50ohm impedance):



Should the potentiometers be connected as shown with only the wiper connected to the filter and the other end open and are the positions of the 56ohm resistors correct?

Thanks in advance for any assistance with this,

Kerr


 

Kerr:

I think you got it right.

Just remember that any load is going to change the impedance.
Send a signal through and adjust until the output picture on the
readout is good. Then disconnect and measure the series resistance of the
5k pots. That will give you the approximate impedance in and out. Then
build transformers to match and you are in business.

As always, measure and record your final result for your records.

Also remember that this is meant for a Chebyshev or Butterworth filter.
It will work on a Cohn or QER filter, but take the results with a bit of
skepticism at first...The measurement should be somewhere around 200
ohms, about 75-100 ohms for a Cohn filter.

john
AD5YE


 

Kerr,

? ?I found this to be useful as well - the author used the same resistive matching process:??
? ?I'd be interested in hearing how the numbers generated by the AADE software track with DISHAL.?

?73, Andy


On Sat, Dec 23, 2017 at 03:48 pm, Kerr Smith wrote:
I have just designed and built up a 10MHz crystal filter. I am trying to measure the input and output impedance to see if it matches with the theoretical value of 158ohms AADE shows so I can match it correctly to my 50ohm RF amplifier. For testing and learning purposes I am trying to match this filter to 50ohms each end so I can connect it to my test equipment and minimise ripple.

I found a very helpful page as shown below:

http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php?topic=97625.0

The fourth reply down by Chuck WD4HXG looks to be what I need to do but I am a little unsure of the correct layout for the L resistor network.? Chuck says:

"Use an input L resistor network made with a 56ohm shunt resistor and a series 5K potentiometer between the filter and the 56 ohm resistor. Same thing on the output. Another resistor L network with the series 5K pot connected to the filter and a shunt 56 ohm resistor to ground."

Should the layout be as shown below (the in and out both have 50ohm impedance):



Should the potentiometers be connected as shown with only the wiper connected to the filter and the other end open and are the positions of the 56ohm resistors correct?

Thanks in advance for any assistance with this,

Kerr


 

Hi John,

I spent quite a while adjusting the resistors on my initial filter and it always seemed a little wobbly on the top, I did get a reasonable result eventually but I think my crystals were probably not the best. For testing purposes I bought a whole load of cheap ones so it would not matter if I made any mistakes as they were only a few pence each. You were right in that the resistance should have been around 200 ohms, I got about 260 ohms at one point and the other end was a bit higher.

I always like to try these things initially using cheap components so I do not need to worry about messing them up, once I know I am working along the right lines and I am getting roughly the results I expect I get better parts.

After doing this for a while I got distracted by Larry's videos (see previous post) and spent a while learning the very basics of SimSmith and working out a good LC matching network - this appears to have given me a reasonable looking filter which should be good for my 40m receiver I am designing.

My design is based on the one Charlie Morris is currently working on, I have just modified it to 40m:



Thanks again for the help and suggestions,

Kerr


 

Hi Andy,

I have been reading over the page you linked to and it was a very interesting read. I tried using the method detailed in my first post and I did seem to get a resistance around what was predicted - it was a little tricky to get a spot on reading as the output of my filter was a little wobbly at the top no matter what I did so I had to pick a reasonable place to take my measurements.

During my information searching process some videos appeared on Youtube by Larry Benko (W0QE):



His videos explain the workings of a piece of software called SimSmith:



This software allows you to do real time plotting of Smith charts and SWR plots and is really excellent. I have been watching Larry's videos for the last few days and have have been modelling my filter using the methods shown in his videos. Once modelled you can create a matching network and adjust it in real time and watch how well it works on the SWR plot.

Using this software makes it really easy to see how well your theoretically calculated values work so you have a really good place to start when get the soldering iron out.

Starting with the values from SimSmith I fiddled about a bit with my matching network and now have a reasonably good looking filter response, it is 2KHz wide so should be good for SSB which is my main objective.

Thanks again for the suggested page,

Kerr


Gordon Gibby
 

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What frequency crystals did you buy, and where did you get them may I ask?


Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 31, 2017, at 07:02, Kerr Smith <kerrsmithusa@...> wrote:

Hi John,

I spent quite a while adjusting the resistors on my initial filter and it always seemed a little wobbly on the top, I did get a reasonable result eventually but I think my crystals were probably not the best. For testing purposes I bought a whole load of cheap ones so it would not matter if I made any mistakes as they were only a few pence each. You were right in that the resistance should have been around 200 ohms, I got about 260 ohms at one point and the other end was a bit higher.

I always like to try these things initially using cheap components so I do not need to worry about messing them up, once I know I am working along the right lines and I am getting roughly the results I expect I get better parts.

After doing this for a while I got distracted by Larry's videos (see previous post) and spent a while learning the very basics of SimSmith and working out a good LC matching network - this appears to have given me a reasonable looking filter which should be good for my 40m receiver I am designing.

My design is based on the one Charlie Morris is currently working on, I have just modified it to 40m:



Thanks again for the help and suggestions,

Kerr


 

Hi Gordon,

I bought quite a few (20) of the 10MHz crystals from Tayda, currently they are 10c each (perfect for experimenting with):



I spent quite a while going through them using a couple of different methods to sort them:

The first was using Ashhar Farhan's method as shown below:



specifically page 66:



The other method was the one from the following site:



specifically the 'Crystal parameters calculator' page:



I used these for my first Bitx20 and it works really well, I have listened (I just built the receive sections) to people from many different countries on it. When I built this receiver I did not have a spectrum analyser so I used an oscilloscope and RF generator to set up my circuits. Now I have a spectrum analyser I can look at my circuit blocks in great detail which is really interesting - I really like seeing how they all work and I can also tweak them until I am happy they are tuned exactly how I need them.

My other reason for creating this receiver (other than learning how to design each section from scratch) is learning how to use my new spectrum analyser to look at and adjust the individual circuit blocks (RF amplifiers, filters, mixers etc) - this is very interesting and I am really enjoying learning how it works.

I hope this helps,

Kerr


Gordon Gibby
 

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Huge help!!!!!!! ? Thanks!!

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 31, 2017, at 09:59, Kerr Smith <kerrsmithusa@...> wrote:

Hi Gordon,

I bought quite a few (20) of the 10MHz crystals from Tayda, currently they are 10c each (perfect for experimenting with):



I spent quite a while going through them using a couple of different methods to sort them:

The first was using Ashhar Farhan's method as shown below:



specifically page 66:



The other method was the one from the following site:



specifically the 'Crystal parameters calculator' page:



I used these for my first Bitx20 and it works really well, I have listened (I just built the receive sections) to people from many different countries on it. When I built this receiver I did not have a spectrum analyser so I used an oscilloscope and RF generator to set up my circuits. Now I have a spectrum analyser I can look at my circuit blocks in great detail which is really interesting - I really like seeing how they all work and I can also tweak them until I am happy they are tuned exactly how I need them.

My other reason for creating this receiver (other than learning how to design each section from scratch) is learning how to use my new spectrum analyser to look at and adjust the individual circuit blocks (RF amplifiers, filters, mixers etc) - this is very interesting and I am really enjoying learning how it works.

I hope this helps,

Kerr


Rod Self
 

There has been a lot of interest in crystal filter termination here.

I have done some studies of crystal-filter-shape vs termination impedances, and the attached pictures show the effects of filter termination impedance.

The 30xfil-1.jpg shows shape vs termination resistance on a surplus 10.9 MHz filter I had in the junkbox. The traces clearly show how the ripple improves with better terminations. (IIRC, the termination resistances were probably in the 50 to 750 ohm range). The trace third-down from the top looks pretty good.

After determining the correct resistance, a tuneable L match would probably flatten the passband even more.

Separately, I made two filters for my Minima. I got a batch of 100 crsytals, measured their frequency in an oscillator, put the results in a spread-sheet, sorted the data, and selected the two sets of best-matched. The 20both.jpg file shows the results...not bad filters!

This was all done on homebrew test equipment that cost me less than $100 to build. Details below for those who are curious.

Regards,

Rod KM6SN


The impetus for this project was that I wanted to improve my homebrew crystal filters, and had no method of accurately recording filter sweeps. I needed to record
them for the purpose of comparing filter "improvements", so I built the hardware and the software to do so.

There is a extremely powerful data plotting program called KST. It is open-source (as in free), available for Windows and Linux. It offers a wide array of data visualization tools.

I used a homebrew scalar network analyzer (SNA), which is an Arduino running an AD9850 DDS, and a W7ZOI power meter circuit. The analog output of the power meter is feed into an a/d input on an Arduino, which prepares the frequency-vs-amplitude data and sends it on a serial port to the PC for logging. It is very sweeperino-like.

A companion program on the PC put the data into KST friendly files. Then I manually ran KST to create the plots you see.

All of the hardware was built dead-bug style, and other than the caution used in the W7ZOI power meter (google it), nothing is critical.