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BITX attenuator
Rafal,
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John posted this in Feb. If you have not seen it it may be of interest to you. Yes, it is good to try to make improvements to a design. Best regards, Peter VK1XP On 20-02-2017 13:05, John Backo via Groups.Io wrote:
With Allison's permission, here is the message to EMRFD regarding the BITX. |
Rafa? Lichwa?a
Hi Peter,
Thanks for this forwarded message! So I noticed my first mistake: crystal filter has ~200 ohms Zin/Zout - not 50, as I thought before. Ok, so that means, attenuator has right Zin/Zout, but there is an impedance mismatch between 1st AMP (just right after LPF) and mixer. This AMP translates 50 ohms of the LPF to ~200 ohms, but mixer expects 50 ohms. Maybe that's why we can notice much improvement in the way BITX works, when we remove that 1st AMP completely - then mixer has 50 ohms on all ports. But I don't understand two things: Why mixers are better at 50 ohms?Second the terminal impedance of the crystal filter and the various I thought there is not much difference in mixing for different impedances on mixer ports, but the point is to keep them EQUAL on each port (nevermind if it is 50 ohm or 200 ohms - mixer will work fine as long as those impedances are equal on each port). Is that correct? And second thing: why RF/IF are optimized for 200ohms? As it was explained by the author of that project, each AMP translates impedance: 50ohms -> 220ohms and 220ohms -> 50ohms (for resistances used in the circuit). So I think there is no mismatch anywhere except this one between 1st RF AMP and mixer. Is that correct? Additional question at the end: is that a good idea to use ADE-1 (SMD level 7 double balanced mixer) instead of those 1n4148 diodes and "manual" transformers? Regards, Rafal SP3GO |
Rafel,
See my comments below: On 17-03-2017 22:35, Rafa? Lichwa?a wrote: Hi Peter,Yes, the lack of matching keeps the circuit simple but you pay the price of less than the best achievable performance from this circuit. In the real world you will need to measure and compare the results of both matched and unmatched circuits to see the performance difference and keep in mind that often what looks good on paper does not translate into a large practical (real world) difference, ie; the improvement may not be worth the added complexity. Why mixers are better at 50 ohms?When I saw this question it caused me to think about how I have been using DBM's for many years now. In truth I have never considered operating them at impedance's other than 50 ohms, all the books and circuits said 50 ohms so thats what I did. However, (I am not into the basic physics of these things) my understanding is that for the DBM to be effective the diodes need to be switched hard on/off as quickly as possible. It seems to me that it is probably easier to achieve this if the DBM is being driven from a low impedance source which ensures maximum current flow through the diodes. And second thing: why RF/IF are optimized for 200ohms?You should ask the designer, Farhan is active on this group ask him. As it was explained by the author of that project, each AMP translatesThat is not my understanding of how the bi-lateral amps work, again talk to Farhan. Additional question at the end: is that a good idea to use ADE-1 (SMDThis link was posted by a member of our group in the past and compares the performance of various DBM's. I was very happy to see that the homemade 1N4148 DBM's performed so well against the commercial DBM's. Of course you will have to be careful in how you build the homemade DBM, match the diodes and be careful with the transformers but if you do a good job the results can be quite good. See link below: Regards,Best regards, Peter VK1XP 18/03/2017 |
Rafa? Lichwa?a
Hi Peter,
Thanks for replay! See my comments inline below... Yes, the lack of matching keeps the circuit simple but you pay the priceSure. I fully agree. Based on my own experiments I can just confirm: theory is sometimes very far from the practice :-) [...] for the DBM toThat's right! It seems to me that it is probably easier to achieve this ifHmmm... are you sure? There is no current flowing through the diode until we pass the diode voltage barrier (depending on the type of diode it is usually from 0,2V to 1V). So I think the voltage on the diode is much more important then the current in fast switching conditions. Following your point (but I'm not convinces about that) the mixer should work even better having 200 ohms on each port (in opposition to 50 ohms) because we have higher voltage on the port much earlier for greater impedance. Is my understanding correct? I'm not convinced about that and I think there is really no difference in mixing efficiency when we have any different impedance (on each port!) then 50 ohms. Do you have any materials (I mean experiments, measures etc.) which say that I'm wrong in that? This link was posted by a member of our group in the past and comparesThanks for this link! I have to analyze it in details, but a brief look shows that 1N4148 can be really close to ADE-1 if you spend a lot of work on that (diode matching, well positioning etc.) But that means, we can have really good results (or even better) without that pain - just by using ADE-1 single chip - so, less complexity, less pain, more repeatability, right? :-) Regards, Rafal SP3GO |
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