¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

BITX attenuator


 

Rafal,

John posted this in Feb. If you have not seen it it may be of interest to you.

Yes, it is good to try to make improvements to a design.

Best regards,

Peter VK1XP

On 20-02-2017 13:05, John Backo via Groups.Io wrote:
With Allison's permission, here is the message to EMRFD regarding the BITX.
This is good information from a master RF engineer.
john
AD5YE
"Some thoughts on improving the bitx...
First so there is no bad feelings Frhan did a bang up job with the
design and its persistence
speaks loads of the reproduceability and utility of the design.
The yabut..
The BITX was not intended to be the high performance transceiver only
low cost and
its avoidance of hard to get parts. So there are compromises, a hard
fact of engineering life.
Things that may help or improve it based on the 40M version I built years ago.
The mixers using 1N914/4148 diodes are not level 7 mixers (nominal
7dbm drive) like commercial DBMs.
the reason for this is Schottky diodes have a lower turn on threshold
than silicon junction diodes with the difference being .2V compared to
.65V. This means you need more LO drive for the terminal impedance
of all ports to be 50 ohms. It also means they are higher level
mixers by about 3db. So enough drive is important to intermod and
overload.
Second the terminal impedance of the crystal filter and the various
RF/IF amplifiers were optimized for 200 ohms the mixers are better at
50 ohms and there is no impedance matching to correct for that. This
means that the DBMs are compromised in performance again for overload
and IMD. The fix here is to insure all ports
especially the IF port is matched to 50 ohms.
It many radios I've built the DBM to IF amp has a Diplexer. Th reason
for this is to insure the IF port sees a wide band (dc to 100mhz)
match and only the desired IF pass though it. This keeps reflected
signals from reentering the mixer and adding to the possible products.
Choice of LO frequency. Unless there is a defining reason I use a LO
that is Higher than the IF as in 40M
with 12mhz if that would be 19mhz. For VFO that would be drifty but
for a NCO (Si5351) its no big deal.
Why? When mixing signals there are two known players (IF and LO) and
many live signals in the band
and they all mix so you get sums and differences and then harmonics of
all those making sums and differences. A program like spurtune can
list them all out and show what the result and likely strength
of each will be. When the LO is lower than the IF the likely
possibilities and their harmonic mixes are
more numerous at or neat the RX pass band and IF passband. Again a
low pass filter between the
LO and the mixer can help sometimes.
RF amplifier... For bands below 10mhz its likely not needed or needs
to be very low gain as there are an abundance of strong signals. RF
selectivity before the preamp is an aid in this and even adding
switchable
attenuators (I use 6 and 12DB so I can get 6/12/18db of attenuation)
and in a strong signal cases that can
help. Lowering the gain of the RF amp (for RX) can help as well.
Another item is if the RF amp is not robust enough it can easily
overload before the mixer, at that point all is lost to IMD. What
high end radios do is use lots of current in the RF amp so its not
easily overloaded then use a mixer that can tolerate that as well as
its no sense having the RF amp be clean and overload the mixer.
Its important to point out that for a given RF amp design and DC bias
level there is a maximum signal level
that will exceed it distortion capabilities. Differently said that
amp has a maximum undistorted power out
that must be spread over all the accepted signals often that means the
amp must be very robust. An
example is a RF amp I used in a radio that had to withstand 10dbm or
more at the input in band
and not overload. The amp ran at 160ma and could deliver .4W of two
tone signal undistorted (better than 35db down). It actually used RF
power devices (2xMRF584) to get that level of capability. Of course
the next stage had to deal with that. The end result was a crunch
proof radio but would be unforgiving about power
used (RX needed 1.5A with .4A in the low level RF sections). It is
sometimes easier to attenuate the
offending signals (as well as desired) as a strategy. Why? because
even if the RF amp is good enough
and the mixer then the first IF (and maybe even second) need to be
able to handle all that signal. In the end it tend to be a very
"system" level problem rather than point solution.
Other tricks are front end preselection using narrow tuneable band
pass filters (loss is tolerable)
to reject the offending players. Notch filters as well though at
higher frequencies they may not
be effective enough.
Consider the case:
Offending signal of -25dbm which is very strong. Add 17db of RF gain
to that and its now -8dbm and any
mixer below level 17 (50mw LO drive) will be overloaded. To make
matters worse if the RF amp is running
less than a maybe 10ma it will be overloaded itself as I've seen this.
So we omit the RF amp and try again
and a -25dbm signal is right below the limits for distortion for a
level 7 (5mw lo drive) mixer. At this
point 6DB of attenuation of RX is an aid as then the signal is down to
-31dbm. Even without the RF amp
the RX is sensitive enough to hear most likely signals your going to
talk to and if need be you can even up
the audio gain to compensate to a point.
They key is managing the levels of all the signal passing through the
RF and mixer or overload will be
a very negative result. Excess gain often deemed desirable are not
always helpful.
My first pass with mine was the described switchable two step
attenuator and then the ability to switch
out the RX RF amp completely. Note that the Elecraft K2 (which has a
very good receiver) took this
path. FYI: small sugar cube relays are handy for this as they can be
placed close to here needed and
powered from a front panel switch.
The BITX is a great experimenters radio and this is one area where
experimenting can be useful of not
required."
Allison


Rafa? Lichwa?a
 

Hi Peter,

Thanks for this forwarded message!

So I noticed my first mistake: crystal filter has ~200 ohms Zin/Zout - not 50, as I thought before.

Ok, so that means, attenuator has right Zin/Zout, but there is an impedance mismatch between 1st AMP (just right after LPF) and mixer.
This AMP translates 50 ohms of the LPF to ~200 ohms, but mixer expects 50 ohms. Maybe that's why we can notice much improvement in the way BITX works, when we remove that 1st AMP completely - then mixer has 50 ohms on all ports.

But I don't understand two things:

Second the terminal impedance of the crystal filter and the various
RF/IF amplifiers were optimized for 200 ohms the mixers are better at
50 ohms and there is no impedance matching to correct for that.
Why mixers are better at 50 ohms?
I thought there is not much difference in mixing for different impedances on mixer ports, but the point is to keep them EQUAL on each port (nevermind if it is 50 ohm or 200 ohms - mixer will work fine as long as those impedances are equal on each port). Is that correct?

And second thing: why RF/IF are optimized for 200ohms?
As it was explained by the author of that project, each AMP translates impedance: 50ohms -> 220ohms and 220ohms -> 50ohms (for resistances used in the circuit).
So I think there is no mismatch anywhere except this one between 1st RF AMP and mixer. Is that correct?

Additional question at the end: is that a good idea to use ADE-1 (SMD level 7 double balanced mixer) instead of those 1n4148 diodes and "manual" transformers?

Regards,
Rafal SP3GO


 

Rafel,

See my comments below:

On 17-03-2017 22:35, Rafa? Lichwa?a wrote:
Hi Peter,
Thanks for this forwarded message!
So I noticed my first mistake: crystal filter has ~200 ohms Zin/Zout -
not 50, as I thought before.
Ok, so that means, attenuator has right Zin/Zout, but there is an
impedance mismatch between 1st AMP (just right after LPF) and mixer.
This AMP translates 50 ohms of the LPF to ~200 ohms, but mixer expects
50 ohms. Maybe that's why we can notice much improvement in the way
BITX works, when we remove that 1st AMP completely - then mixer has 50
ohms on all ports.
But I don't understand two things:

Second the terminal impedance of the crystal filter and the various
RF/IF amplifiers were optimized for 200 ohms the mixers are better at
50 ohms and there is no impedance matching to correct for that.
Yes, the lack of matching keeps the circuit simple but you pay the price of less than the best achievable performance from this circuit. In the real world you will need to measure and compare the results of both matched and unmatched circuits to see the performance difference and keep in mind that often what looks good on paper does not translate into a large practical (real world) difference, ie; the improvement may not be worth the added complexity.
Why mixers are better at 50 ohms?
I thought there is not much difference in mixing for different
impedances on mixer ports, but the point is to keep them EQUAL on each
port (nevermind if it is 50 ohm or 200 ohms - mixer will work fine as
long as those impedances are equal on each port). Is that correct?
When I saw this question it caused me to think about how I have been using DBM's for many years now. In truth I have never considered operating them at impedance's other than 50 ohms, all the books and circuits said 50 ohms so thats what I did. However, (I am not into the basic physics of these things) my understanding is that for the DBM to be effective the diodes need to be switched hard on/off as quickly as possible. It seems to me that it is probably easier to achieve this if the DBM is being driven from a low impedance source which ensures maximum current flow through the diodes.
And second thing: why RF/IF are optimized for 200ohms?
You should ask the designer, Farhan is active on this group ask him.

As it was explained by the author of that project, each AMP translates
impedance: 50ohms -> 220ohms and 220ohms -> 50ohms (for resistances
used in the circuit).
So I think there is no mismatch anywhere except this one between 1st
RF AMP and mixer. Is that correct?
That is not my understanding of how the bi-lateral amps work, again talk to Farhan.

Additional question at the end: is that a good idea to use ADE-1 (SMD
level 7 double balanced mixer) instead of those 1n4148 diodes and
"manual" transformers?
This link was posted by a member of our group in the past and compares the performance of various DBM's. I was very happy to see that the homemade 1N4148 DBM's performed so well against the commercial DBM's. Of course you will have to be careful in how you build the homemade DBM, match the diodes and be careful with the transformers but if you do a good job the results can be quite good. See link below:



Regards,
Rafal SP3GO
Best regards,

Peter VK1XP

18/03/2017



Rafa? Lichwa?a
 

Hi Peter,

Thanks for replay!
See my comments inline below...

Yes, the lack of matching keeps the circuit simple but you pay the price
of less than the best achievable performance from this circuit. In the
real world you will need to measure and compare the results of both
matched and unmatched circuits to see the performance difference and
keep in mind that often what looks good on paper does not translate into
a large practical (real world) difference, ie; the improvement may not
be worth the added complexity.
Sure. I fully agree. Based on my own experiments I can just confirm: theory is sometimes very far from the practice :-)

[...] for the DBM to
be effective the diodes need to be switched hard on/off as quickly as
possible.
That's right!

It seems to me that it is probably easier to achieve this if
the DBM is being driven from a low impedance source which ensures
maximum current flow through the diodes.
Hmmm... are you sure?
There is no current flowing through the diode until we pass the diode voltage barrier (depending on the type of diode it is usually from 0,2V to 1V). So I think the voltage on the diode is much more important then the current in fast switching conditions.
Following your point (but I'm not convinces about that) the mixer should work even better having 200 ohms on each port (in opposition to 50 ohms) because we have higher voltage on the port much earlier for greater impedance. Is my understanding correct?

I'm not convinced about that and I think there is really no difference in mixing efficiency when we have any different impedance (on each port!) then 50 ohms. Do you have any materials (I mean experiments, measures etc.) which say that I'm wrong in that?

This link was posted by a member of our group in the past and compares
the performance of various DBM's. I was very happy to see that the
homemade 1N4148 DBM's performed so well against the commercial DBM's. Of
course you will have to be careful in how you build the homemade DBM,
match the diodes and be careful with the transformers but if you do a
good job the results can be quite good. See link below:

Thanks for this link!
I have to analyze it in details, but a brief look shows that 1N4148 can be really close to ADE-1 if you spend a lot of work on that (diode matching, well positioning etc.)
But that means, we can have really good results (or even better) without that pain - just by using ADE-1 single chip - so, less complexity, less pain, more repeatability, right? :-)

Regards,
Rafal SP3GO