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Talk: Does price buy Performance or Satisfaction in an HF Transceiver? by Frank Howell K4FMH
Talk: Does price buy Performance or Satisfaction in an HF Transceiver?Frank Howell K4FMH presents a fascinating insight into our modern HF rigs looking at their price, their performance as measured by Rob Sherwood and reviews on eham.net.
Do you get what you pay for??Are expensive transceivers really worth it? Join us on this presentation to find out. ?
Frank has an enthusiasm for electronics and radio that spans over six decades. He serves as the ARRL Assistant Director (Delta Division) and is an ardent amateur radio podcaster and journalist.
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Tuesday 27th April 2021, 1900 UTC
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This event is hosted on Zoom:??Meeting ID: 773 073 0073 (No passcode)
Also, live streaming on YouTube ? ?
(Bury Radio Society, with Warrington ARC) 73 Trystan G0KAY |
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I'll leave it to the experts to discuss performance. But, as far as satisfaction goes...
There's nothing like he thrill of making a QSO on a rig that you built yourself and being able to proudly proclaim "The rig here is homebrew.". I can tell you from experience that on SSB at least the other side rarely believes it? 73, Dean KK4DAS
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I look at the complexity of most modern rigs and wonder.... how many people use more than a few of the multiple facilities ?
Could the average person remember how most of the settings work without having to dig into the manual ? Do they need most of the facilities offered ? Then I look at the price and quickly look away again ! This is supposed to be a hobby not an opportunity to take out a second mortgage. I have been looking at repair videos on YouTube ( hours of entertainment). It is amazing how something like a voltage regulator or leaking electrolytics take down a $1,000's transceiver. Some transceivers have known, common problems easy to fix but very expensive to get fixed unless you can do the repair yourself. Making equipment brings pleasure, using it adds to the pleasure and you know enough to repair it if needed and you don't need a second mortgage. Reg????????????????? G4NFR |
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Reg -- we build stuff 'cause it is enormous fun.
Buying a complete radio is very cool if you want to move on quickly to the software (Fldigi, WSJT-X, logging, award tracking, etc etc) for example.? If your thrill comes from (say) building antennas or maybe the mysteries of HF propogation, then just buy a radio and get on to the stuff that floats your boat.? In all these cases, the radio is just a means to an end.? So any radio having? YOUR required functions will do. After requirements are met, any radio will do -- they are interchangeable, if critical, links in the value chain.? All of this suggests you are correct -- we use a small fraction of a modern rig's capability because the rig is a means to some other end -- the end that floats our boat.? Also supporting your conjecture that we use a fraction of the radio's features, due to extraordinary feature richness and complexity, is the reality of computer control.? One can argue that we interact with radio-related software? 99% of the time, and push radio buttons/menu 1% or less. All this gets (at last), to the point.? The joy of building, and associated simplicity, for many folks, swamps any bump from buying an endlessly feature rich and complex radio.? So mostly all use only a few features on the radio, while we spend a majority of radio time interacting with software controlling the rig or supporting our interaction.? The implication here is that for many folks, there is scant value in a feature rich rig.? If you follow this logic train, then building a simple rig has enormous potential for joy.? The satisfaction, the simplicity, the recognition of USB-based operation, all support building a simple rig.? Building a uBITX comes to mind, as well as the Simple SSB rig (aka KK4DAS, Dean's wonderful work).? And there are many many others. If you think of a modern rig as a USB appliance, then you want it small and out of the way.? Your "rig" is the software on your computer.? ?A simple kit or "build" seems to fit the bill. |
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Most of the features are just software codes. Your main transceiver can be really, really simple. Yet you could have a front panel crammed with buttons and knobs that connect the micro inside the radio. What takes money these days if the same thing that did cost an arm and a leg 20 years ago. Bandpass filters, crystal filters. Transmit bandpass filters of 100 watt range need high Q capacitors that can take 500v RF. If you have 3 section rx filter for each band, that translates to 33 coils (11 HF bands) plus 77 C0G capacitors. Add up the relays too. This is where a homebrewer can shine.? A two band transceiver that covers just your favourite bands (mine would be 40/20), has good rx and tx band pass filters, two? crystal filters for 3 khz and 300 hz, runs off a nice analog vfo from a scavnged slow motion drive will cost less than hundred dollars and a month to build. It will run circles around any commercial rig for 1/50th the money. - f On Tue 27 Apr, 2021, 9:39 PM Don - KM4UDX, <dontay155@...> wrote: Reg -- we build stuff 'cause it is enormous fun. |
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Building a transceiver from scratch is indeed great fun. Soldering the components on, winding the toroids, aligning the IF, setting up the filters. Then testing it all for smoke, and seeing if it works.
It's even better if you have designed the circuit, perhaps from Doug DeMaw's design guides. Even putting on the knobs and connectors on the ready-built UBitX is fun too and can give some sense of achievement too. It's all good. Some areas of our hobby do however almost preclude home construction to some extent. Also as people get older they may find they don't have the dexterity or eyesight they used to have. We also have a huge chunk of the community who rarely turn on a soldering iron (that's if they own one). There are also people who travel for a living, or have little space, and having a ready-made transceiver makes more sense. We all may have a reason to purchase a commercially made transceiver. This talk will give us some idea of whether they really are as good as the money you pay for them. Trystan G0KAY |
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I might get booted out of here for saying this, but, the IC7300 is an amazing deal for the price point. For 1000 bucks, it gives a huge radio. 100 watts, DDC receiver, all the SDR bells and whistles. If you just want to get in air, that's the one to buy. If is a far better option that a xeigu at 450 dollars. I keep saying to the HF signal folks, our competition is the IC7300. At five times the price, it is twenty times the radio. Ok, i have put on my tin foil hat, may the stoning begin. On Tue 27 Apr, 2021, 10:35 PM Trystan G0KAY, <trystandavies+nodirect@...> wrote: Building a transceiver from scratch is indeed great fun. Soldering the components on, winding the toroids, aligning the IF, setting up the filters. Then testing it all for smoke, and seeing if it works. |
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Jack, W8TEE
I would give my left...whatever...to be able to design a circuit. It is still amazing to me to see someone sit down and, looking through some spec sheets, knows how to string things together and make a circuit work. Silly questions for those people, like why is that resistor 10K and not 15K, and why is that toroid there, are major stumbling blocks for me. Still, I really enjoy kit building and I can make some things dance to a different tune if they are programmable, and I get a kick out of that, too. Sadly, there are a lot of old guys like me who miss out on both the soldering and programming fun and there's really little to lose by trying. Digital modes, SMD parts, microcontrollers, programming, etc. are all elements of our hobby and we should all at least try them before giving up on them. Who knows, you may find a new element of this wonderful hobby that you let bypass you when a little effort would have opened an entirely new world. So, go ahead...jump in! There are plenty of people here who can help you out if you start to sink. Jack, W8TEE
On Tuesday, April 27, 2021, 1:04:44 PM EDT, Trystan G0KAY <trystandavies+nodirect@...> wrote:
Building a transceiver from scratch is indeed great fun. Soldering the components on, winding the toroids, aligning the IF, setting up the filters. Then testing it all for smoke, and seeing if it works. It's even better if you have designed the circuit, perhaps from Doug DeMaw's design guides. Even putting on the knobs and connectors on the ready-built UBitX is fun too and can give some sense of achievement too. It's all good. Some areas of our hobby do however almost preclude home construction to some extent. Also as people get older they may find they don't have the dexterity or eyesight they used to have. We also have a huge chunk of the community who rarely turn on a soldering iron (that's if they own one). There are also people who travel for a living, or have little space, and having a ready-made transceiver makes more sense. We all may have a reason to purchase a commercially made transceiver. This talk will give us some idea of whether they really are as good as the money you pay for them. Trystan G0KAY -- Jack, W8TEE |
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Hi Jack...
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......Farhan, I have a uBitX V3 and have helped a few others by aligning and setting them up. I also have some toys from uBitX real competition, QRP (fill-in-the-blank). Both outfits have shown me the pieces that I need to build the radio I really want. My radio does not need a microcontroller to control *everything*. It doesn't need that for T-R control at all and I don't need any built-in voltmeters nor operating modes, nor uC keyer. I especially don't need an encyclopedic menu *system*. The frequency accuracy and partly frequency stability is the bright place for the uC :) I have started accumulating the parts to make the radio I want. It may not cost less but it will be what I want - nothing more and nothing less. All mode operation from DC to daylight with 1500 watts? Nope :) So thanks to HF Signals and that other outfit (you know who you are, Hans) for the designs and the hardware. 73, Bill KU8H bark less - wag more On 4/27/21 1:16 PM, Jack, W8TEE via groups.io wrote:
I would give my left...whatever...to be able to design a circuit. It is still amazing to me to see someone sit down and, looking through some spec sheets, knows how to string things together and make a circuit work. Silly questions for those people, like why is that resistor 10K and not 15K, and why is that toroid there, are major stumbling blocks for me. Still, I really enjoy kit building and I can make some things dance to a different tune if they are programmable, and I get a kick out of that, too. Sadly, there are a lot of old guys like me who miss out on both the soldering and programming fun and there's really little to lose by trying. |
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Satisfaction to me is being able to use and to exploit minimalistic HF rigs, render them effective beyond imagination. Apart from HF Signals, I really have fun with Softrock RXTX. What is missing from Jap rigs, I? really don't know: software does everything! DSP on all modes, NR, split receiving a channel on the left speaker and the other on the right at the same time, recording, dx cluster on the waterfall, QSO recording and? CQ parroting, compressed and equalized modulation. Do I really miss something? Il mar 27 apr 2021 07:16 PM Jack, W8TEE via <jjpurdum=[email protected]> ha scritto:
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Jack, W8TEE
Bill: Exactly. Al and I thought the uBITX was so good, we tried to extend it via the JackAl board. Not my best idea. However, we learned a lot and one message I keep hearing a lot is the "complex menuing system" of some radios. I agree and the JackAl suffered from that. Al and I are working on an SDT that we want and we have gone away from a complex menu system to NO push buttons. It has a lot of features, especially DSP stuff, but nothing is more than 2 button pushes away. Also, I'm arranging the menus we do have to do what I want. That's why changing the WPM can be done in a second or so. Obviously, if someone doesn't like my T41 menu arrangement, they can change it. While your radio may not "need" a microcontroller, they can make tailoring the radio to your specific needs a lot easier than changing the hardware. I bought a Xiegu G90 not because I love the radio, but because it small and easily taken just about anywhere. Its 20W on SSB makes a big difference when 5-10W just isn't enough. I ran 15W SSB and worked into France, Portugal, and Ireland during FD. Our SDT will be capable of 20W SSB/CW, but I can easily dial it down for QRP contest, plus it has a lot of DSP stuff the G90 doesn't have. Also, the G90's 25kHz display is almost useless during a contest using QRP. We are currently displaying 100kHz which is much better for hunt-and-pounce QRP operating. My point is, each one of us has different perceptions of what the "ideal" radio is and how much we can afford to plunk into it. Being able to hack a uBITX, QCX, or a T41 often is where most of the fun comes from. Jack, W8TEE
On Tuesday, April 27, 2021, 1:55:57 PM EDT, Bill Cromwell <wrcromwell@...> wrote:
Hi Jack... ......Farhan, I have a uBitX V3 and have helped a few others by aligning and setting them up. I also have some toys from uBitX real competition, QRP (fill-in-the-blank). Both outfits have shown me the pieces that I need to build the radio I really want. My radio does not need a microcontroller to control *everything*. It doesn't need that for T-R control at all and I don't need any built-in voltmeters nor operating modes, nor uC keyer. I especially don't need an encyclopedic menu *system*. The frequency accuracy and partly frequency stability is the bright place for the uC :) I have started accumulating the parts to make the radio I want. It may not cost less but it will be what I want - nothing more and nothing less. All mode operation from DC to daylight with 1500 watts? Nope :) So thanks to HF Signals and that other outfit (you know who you are, Hans) for the designs and the hardware. 73, Bill KU8H bark less - wag more On 4/27/21 1:16 PM, Jack, W8TEE via groups.io wrote: > I would give my left...whatever...to be able to design a circuit. It > is still amazing to me to see someone sit down and, looking through > some spec sheets, knows how to string things together and make a > circuit work. Silly questions for those people, like why is that > resistor 10K and not 15K, and why is that toroid there, are major > stumbling blocks for me. Still, I really enjoy kit building and I can > make some things dance to a different tune if they are programmable, > and I get a kick out of that, too. Sadly, there are a lot of old guys > like me who miss out on both the soldering and programming fun and > there's really little to lose by trying. > > Digital modes, SMD parts, microcontrollers, programming, etc. are all > elements of our hobby and we should all at least try them before > giving up on them. Who knows, you may find a new element of this > wonderful hobby that you let bypass you when a little effort would > have opened an entirely new world. So, go ahead...jump in! There are > plenty of people here who can help you out if you start to sink. > > Jack, W8TEE > > On Tuesday, April 27, 2021, 1:04:44 PM EDT, Trystan G0KAY > <trystandavies+nodirect@...> wrote: > > > Building a transceiver from scratch is indeed great fun. Soldering the > components on, winding the toroids, aligning the IF, setting up the > filters. Then testing it all for smoke, and seeing if it works. > > It's even better if you have designed the circuit, perhaps from Doug > DeMaw's design guides. > > Even putting on the knobs and connectors on the ready-built UBitX is > fun too and can give some sense of achievement too. > > It's all good. > > Some areas of our hobby do however almost preclude home construction > to some extent. Also as people get older they may find they don't have > the dexterity or eyesight they used to have. We also have a huge chunk > of the community who rarely turn on a soldering iron (that's if they > own one). There are also people who travel for a living, or have > little space, and having a ready-made transceiver makes more sense. We > all may have a reason to purchase a commercially made transceiver. > > This talk will give us some idea of whether they really are as good as > the money you pay for them. > > Trystan G0KAY > > -- > Jack, W8TEE > -- Jack, W8TEE |
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Ashhar,
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I agree with you. I have QRP radios but am looking for a tabletop portable radio with more power and a built-in tuner. I was thinking of the XEIGU but decided on using the 7300 in the EMERGENCY mode. The tuner has a wider range and 50 watts is more than enough.
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Mike N2MS
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Farman,
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¿ªÔÆÌåÓýYou could sell a lot of simple radios with little more than a power switch, mic/speaker Jack an antenna jack, and a USB port. You would control it with CAT commands, no front panel at all.Heck, you could sell a lot of single channel radios, as long as that channel was 14.074 USB (for 20m FT8). Ken, N2VIP On Apr 27, 2021, at 13:20, Jack, W8TEE via groups.io <jjpurdum@...> wrote:
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Hi,
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Jack, your point of view is not much different from mine. Bear in mind I am a mostly CW ham. I am thinking about putting in more than one controller. The primary controller is to operate the digital VFO. Obviously that includes the frequency display. Older, legacy approaches can deal with carrier frequency (BFO), T-R switching functions. That accommodates QSK and CW offset so easily and reliably. Other possible uses for a separate controller(s) include morse generator, audio management that might include DSP, panadapter (waterfall) display, and even a coffee warmer or beer dispenser <evil grin>. All of those uC assignments are "secondary" in my radio and a separate uC can be dedicated to each. That means a more modest controller and less expensive. That also lends itself to a modular approach so that other modules can be tried without tearing up the entire radio. No more than 50 watts and can dial down below 5 watts. In some ways it will be a test fixture and transceiver combination. I counted the buttons and knobs on some of the radios advertised in QST (50 or more). They look worse than all those menu layers and there are still menu layers, too! OY! It probably will be bigger and less attractive for use on the picnic table at the park or carrying up a mountain. I don't do mountains and I have the PFR-3, QCX, and uBitX for the field trips:) I hope this means I will get to do more field trips. 73, Bill KU8H bark less - wag more On 4/27/21 2:20 PM, Jack, W8TEE via groups.io wrote:
Bill: |
Trystan G0KAY
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