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~~Forcing children to live a parent's philosophy doesn't necessarily produce kids that live those same philosophies and could actually produce the opposite.~~



I would love to explore this more in regards to unschooling. Is there an exact expectation that because we choose to live an unschooling life that it will produce a certain type of teen or adult? Is there pressure on our children to be or become a certain someone because of the unschooling lifestyle that the parents chose/choose? What of the children who grow to adults that don't fit the desired unschooled criteria?



I've been exploring this idea for a while now and look forward to replies.

~Crystal in New Mexico~

-=- Is there an
exact expectation that because we choose to live an unschooling life
that it
will produce a certain type of teen or adult? -=-

Keith says an undamaged one.
I figure we're avoiding whatever damage school could have done to
whatever kind of kid we have.

-=- What of the children who grow to
adults that don't fit the desired unschooled criteria?-=-

Would school or schooling have been a negative factor?

Sandra

On 3/23/2010 8:11 PM, Sorschasmom wrote:

~~Forcing children to live a parent's philosophy doesn't necessarily produce
kids that live those same philosophies and could actually produce the
opposite.~~

I would love to explore this more in regards to unschooling. Is there an
exact expectation that because we choose to live an unschooling life that it
will produce a certain type of teen or adult?

I expect the kids to grow up interested in the world around them. I expect them to grow up to be pretty generous and supportive of the people they care about. I expect my kids to be pretty good critical thinkers - analytical.
But the above aren't really an expectation that unschooling will produce that type of person, it is more that it is what I think our lifestyle is likely to lead to.

I have said that my goal for them regarding math was that at least I'd do no harm - that they might grow up not knowing a lot of math, but at least they wouldn't hate it or have the kind of serious math anxiety/phobia that is so often caused by schooling.

I'm not really sure what "a certain type" means, though. What is a "type of person?"

-pam

~~Forcing children to live a parent's philosophy doesn't necessarily produce
kids that live those same philosophies and could actually produce the
opposite.~~

***I would love to explore this more in regards to unschooling. Is there an
exact expectation that because we choose to live an unschooling life that it
will produce a certain type of teen or adult?***

I was thinking about 2 different things that I've seen parents do to kids and the kids went the opposite. The biggest is religion. If parents are forceful, whether they are nice or not, sometimes the kids grow up with damage related to religion and choose another way.

The other was more about environmental issues. I've seen kids grow up with parents that are super hard core into recycling, living green, etc, and they grow up with those things more central than they are. It's the same as religion being forced on someone, whether the parents are nice or not, some kids will grow up with a negative association to living those same ideals.

When parents are forceful about their ideas, yet kind in many other ways, they may maintain a relationship, yet still choose another life style. When parents are forceful about their ideas and extremely unkind about lots of things, they'll probably grow up thinking their parents are pretty stupid and everything that they believe is, by extension, stupid too.

What I've found to be true for me and my kids, is that I truly respect the things they believe in, so they tend to do the same with me. I've seen that to be true in unschooling families that are very religious too. The kids, because their ideas and very beings are respected, don't reject their religious upbringing.

Those are the ideas that were floating around in my head when I said the above. What usually triggers this thought for me, is that I live in Oregon, a very "green" state and lots of people choose to live with those ideals, so I find it bumps into unschooling ideas from time to time.

--- In AlwaysLearning@..., "Sorschasmom" <willowsfortress@...> wrote:

-=- ~~Forcing children to live a parent's philosophy doesn't necessarily produce
kids that live those same philosophies and could actually produce the
opposite.~~



I would love to explore this more in regards to unschooling. Is there an
exact expectation that because we choose to live an unschooling life that it
will produce a certain type of teen or adult? Is there pressure on our
children to be or become a certain someone because of the unschooling
lifestyle that the parents chose/choose? What of the children who grow to
adults that don't fit the desired unschooled criteria?-=-

Since unschooling has so much to do with allowing and accepting, and really supporting who our children are, I think it's a different kettle of fish than the host of philosophies that create a rigid structure.

The expectations I have for my children have to do with being positive and engaged in their lives, creative problem solving and being "whole" people. They are already these people, so my expectation is that they don't significantly change. I think that the expectations I have for them are in line with those they'd have for themselves, so no conflict.

I'm not sure that there is a desired unschooled criteria--more like observations of people who have been unschooled, and a set of characteristics that they seem to share--engagement in their lives, creativity, seeing lots of possibilities. It was watching and hearing these people that caused us to pursue unschooling. I'm seeing all these things present in my kids already. I think this is really different than having ideals that I might constantly be pressuring my kids toward--like many other philosophies.

I'm curious about why you're asking--what your thoughts are. Are you seeing something different?

Joanna

On Mar 23, 2010, at 11:11 PM, Sorschasmom wrote:

Is there an
exact expectation that because we choose to live an unschooling
life that it
will produce a certain type of teen or adult?

I wouldn't say exact expectation. (Not sure what that is but it
sounds too precise ;-) But I'd say I expected unschooling to have
certain effects like enjoying learning, curiosity, good relationship,
self confidence, thoughtfulness.

But rather than unschooling making those happen unschooling creates
the environment where whatever level of those a child naturally has
in their genes will flourish. My expectations were of unschooling,
not of Kathryn. I trusted that those were innate in humans and all I
had to do was provide the environment.

Kathryn has completed NaNoWriMo (a 50,000 word novel in one month)
several times. Unschooling didn't cause her to do that. What
unschooling did do was not squash what was naturally in her and
provided the environment that supported what was naturally in her.

Is there pressure on our
children to be or become a certain someone because of the unschooling
lifestyle that the parents chose/choose?

Anyone who unschools for a while can see the different reactions they
get from pressure and support.

I can't think of any examples, but if Kathryn wasn't "meeting my
expectations" -- like deliberately being unkind maybe? -- then I
wouldn't see it as a flaw in her but a reaction to something else,
perhaps something I was doing or not doing.

What of the children who grow to
adults that don't fit the desired unschooled criteria?

What are you asking? About adult children who didn't meet
expectations? Or how did children who didn't have what it takes to
unschool turn out?

I don't think it's possible for a child not to have what it takes.
Wanting and needing to learn is innate. Though, it's very possible
for parents to not have what it takes. That's an idea that can cause
worry and doubt! But I don't think unschooling is like a talent you
can practice without realizing how bad you are ;-) (Like singing or
acting or writing.) Some of what it takes to unschool is curiosity, a
desire to do better and keep learning about unschooling (and life!),
a respect and trust in who the kids are rather than a desire to
change them into who you think they should be.

Joyce

I can attest to opposing my parent's religion ... and I would say that *not
only* did/do I end up believing very differently from most people in my
family but I *also* (unlike the way I was raised) am not actively laying my
own path down for my child to follow behind me in. At this point, Karl is at
least somewhat interested in God/Jesus and has a lot of positive things to
say about them, and in addition he is forming his own ideas which he is not
being guided on. He thinks of God as something like the sun, which he has
been telling me since he was about 4. When Karl asks (which is rare) I tell
him what some believe and a little about what I think, which is constantly
changing by considering things I've never allowed myself to explore.

What I expect to produce in Karl is confidence in himself and his own
thoughts. He's already confident at 6, and whatever he doesn't have nailed
down isn't disturbing him. It's just going along with his natural curiosity
and enjoyment of life.

~Katherine

On 3/24/2010 4:06 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:

What of the children who grow to
adults that don't fit the desired unschooled criteria?

What are you asking? About adult children who didn't meet
expectations? Or how did children who didn't have what it takes to
unschool turn out?

Parents who have very specific "outcomes" they want to see in their children, like "Go to college," or "Become a doctor," "Be vegetarian," or something like that - are not good candidates for unschooling if they'll think less of their children if they make different choices. Unschooling is more about helping our kids uncover their latent talents and interests and helping them pursue and develop those, not at all about molding kids to fit the parents' specifications.

If we're talking about more general character traits, then of course we all hope our kids will turn out to be responsible and kind and generous and so on.

-pam

-pam

-=-Kathryn has completed NaNoWriMo (a 50,000 word novel in one month)
several times. Unschooling didn't cause her to do that. What
unschooling did do was not squash what was naturally in her and
provided the environment that supported what was naturally in her.-=-

It also kept her from being in school 130 hours or more that month,
not counting homework. She had time to do it!

-=-But I don't think unschooling is like a talent you
can practice without realizing how bad you are ;-) (Like singing or
acting or writing.)-=-

I think unschooling can be practiced badly, and there's a growing
numbers of lists and forums to tell people that just having your kids
home is unschooling, and they're learning all the time, so parents
don't need to do anything special but take care of themselves.

For the past month or so I've cringed whenever anyone (even my
favorite people) say "kids learn all the time."

It's not that I don't think it's true it's just that as in school
they're learning how to cheat and procrastinate and cram for tests and
forge notes from home, I don't want to think of the unschooling
version of that, where they're learning to think their parents aren't
altogether bright.

Sandra

When Simon was a baby there was a lot of stuf out in the world that I interacted with about Ferberizing. Mad About You even had an episode that was all about getting their baby to sleep through the night. For me, that knowledge that Simon would learn from all things, and not necessarily what it was hoped he would learn, the idea of helping my infant son to learn that I wouldn't be there for him, that he needed to be independent when he was less than a month old, well, that was learning that I certainly didn't want to deliberately set up. So, the idea of learning all the time has helped me to be aware of the learning environment that I am fostering.

Schuyler




________________________________

For the past month or so I've cringed whenever anyone (even my?
favorite people) say "kids learn all the time."

It's not that I don't think it's true it's just that as in school?
they're learning how to cheat and procrastinate and cram for tests and?
forge notes from home, I don't want to think of the unschooling?
version of that, where they're learning to think their parents aren't?
altogether bright.

What of the children who grow to
adults that don't fit the desired unschooled criteria?

I sometimes wondered about this myself, in terms of who has come
before me <g>. I see happy, healthy, engaged adults when I look at
Pam's, Sandra's and Joyce's kids, for instance. They all have
something outstanding about them: a particular passion, a vocation, a
terrific personality, an intensity well-channelled, something.

It seems to me that their parents probably nurtured whatever spark was
in their kids (and the more difficult aspects, if there were any,
understood and helped with). Not being in school gave them time to see
it, and it gave their children the time to grow into themselves. Every
one of the seven have their own thing going on. None of them are a
carbon copy of each other, even in the same family. What they all have
are parents who made their relationship a priority, who saw learning
happening and facilitated it, who believed their kids would grow up to
be just who they were and brought out the best in them; their parents
were and are always there, through good and not-so-good times.

Some kids are more, um, tetchy than others. Mine included. She will
likely never be "easy-going" or sunnily happy all the time. It's not
in her nature. If I try to make her be those things to live up to some
ideal of what an unschooled adult *should* be like, I'm not going to
be much help to her. She's not going to be like Holly or Roya or
Rosie, for instance. However, if I help her be and do what she wants
to be and do, if I coach her in situations where she might not do so
well and would like to do better, if I see her as a whole human being
now, not just in the future once unschooling is over, she'll be her
own certain type of human going forward.

I think the difference is in the parents. It's why I want to hear
those people's voices at conferences and on lists. It's why I like to
talk with their kids. It's not that these unschooled adults are
morally or mentally or physically or financially superior; it's that
they are evidence of parents who are/were engaged, supportive,
available, and really understood their children's unique selves. I
want to be like those parents. I want to do what they do. And I want
my daughter to be herself, not a copy of another unschooled kid.

*I* want to be like Joyce, Sandra and Pam (and others whom I admire).
It's me who has to be a certain type of human, in that case.

Robin B.

For the past month or so I've cringed whenever anyone (even my
favorite people) say "kids learn all the time."

Good point! If this is a fundamental truth, and people go on about their business without really looking at what their kids ARE learning, then this could be permission to not put in very much energy on the parents' part. Where do lazy unschoolers come from?

I've known some--one family of four who has all their kids back in school. Only one of the four is there for social reasons--the other three are there because they were so dreadfully bored at home. The mom thought that it was enough for them to just play, because learning is play--right? Maybe that's another one for that list--whatever that list is...truths that taken out of context become platitutdes? That's an awfully long name for a list. <g>

That's the thing about unschooling--everything needs a context, because that's what gives it the meaning. The one-shot phrases don't have enough meaning. It's a very different thing when Sandra says, "kids learn all the time," versus my failed friend!

Joanna

-=-They all have
something outstanding about them: a particular passion, a vocation, a
terrific personality, an intensity well-channelled, something.-=-

Marty's going to have to go with the personality, because he's still
at home and unemployed.
Somehow I'm not upset or ashamed, though. <g>

He and his girlfriend are getting ready to go to the Natural History
Museum to meet their friend Ryan to see an omnimax movie about some
undersea thing, and to hang out. She worked all night, and so really
needs to get there, see the museum, and come back to sleep! She works
in a medical lab. That sounds good and uplifting and all, but last
night they were at a casino, where Marty says he only spent $1 but got
to play a long time because he got freeplay and bonuses and just hung
out there. Made about $8 profit. <G>

I like the museum better than the casino, but I do believe Marty is
seeing the casino in a fully mathematical and business way, and is
learning things I could never learn because I don't have such a
pattern brain as he has.

Sandra

-=-Maybe that's another one for that list--whatever that list
is...truths that taken out of context become platitutdes? That's an
awfully long name for a list. -=-

Well...
Maybe LOU-Unschooling. Lack-of-understanding Unschooling.

Water-bug unschooling (surface only).

Sandra

I am really enjoying this discussion.

-=- Is there an exact expectation that because we choose to live an unschooling life that it will produce a certain type of teen or adult? -=-

~~Keith says an undamaged one.
I figure we're avoiding whatever damage school could have done to whatever kind of kid we have.~~

I like that I know Sorscha will not need to recover from her childhood.

~~I expect the kids to grow up interested in the world around them. I expect them to grow up to be pretty generous and supportive of the people they care about. I expect my kids to be pretty good critical thinkers - analytical. But the above aren't really an expectation that unschooling will produce that type of person, it is more that it is what I think our lifestyle is likely to lead to.~~

Yes.

~~I'm not sure that there is a desired unschooled criteria--more like observations of people who have been unschooled, and a set of characteristics that they seem to share--engagement in their lives, creativity, seeing lots of possibilities.~~

A "set of characteristics" is what I'm pondering. I'm wondering if a child doesn't have those particular characteristics then how do they feel about themselves - A sort of unschooling peer pressure concept. I'm also referring to a recent blog I read and one in the past where an unschooled teen felt they weren't "doing enough" (for lack of better words) compared to other unschoolers. I asked Sorscha if she felt any pressure to be a certain way because she falls under the label of unschooler. Her reply, "I am who I am and no one can change that." So this is not the case with my kiddo.

~~I think unschooling can be practiced badly, and there's a growing numbers of lists and forums to tell people that just having your kids home is unschooling, and they're learning all the time, so parents don't need to do anything special but take care of themselves.~~

Yes, I agree. I have explored out yonder. I've also seen bored unschooled kids.

Okay, too interesting of a connection not to post. Sorscha just said, "I have so much pressure right now." She's playing a new DS game.

~~She will likely never be "easy-going" or sunnily happy all the time. It's not in her nature. If I try to make her be those things to live up to some ideal of what an unschooled adult *should* be like, I'm not going to be much help to her.~~

Robin, you always speak to me because Michelle and Sorscha are alike in many ways. Thank you for treading the path before me and leaving me your wonderful popcorn trail of wisdom! I very much understand your comment and I have also known that about my daughter.

~~However, if I help her be and do what she wants to be and do, if I coach her in situations where she might not do so well and would like to do better, if I see her as a whole human being now, not just in the future once unschooling is over, she'll be her own certain type of human going forward.~~

Yes, I have no doubt that Sorscha is and will be her "own certain type human" forever. That was beautifully written Robin.

~~And I want my daughter to be herself, not a copy of another unschooled kid.~~

Waving hands, yes yes! I will say that I have felt pressure to make / mold Sorscha into a copy. Yea, I didn't go there. Besides, Sorscha has a built-in BS detector, she would have called me on it so fast!
~Crystal in New Mexico~

Joyce wrote: >>>>>> I wouldn't say exact expectation. (Not sure what that is but it> sounds too precise ;-) But I'd say I expected unschooling to have> certain effects like enjoying learning, curiosity, good relationship,> self confidence, thoughtfulness....

But rather than unschooling making those happen unschooling creates the environment where whatever level of those a child naturally has in their genes will flourish.<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Yes! This reminds me of the following quote, I've loved it since I first heard it:

"Nothing you become will disappoint me; I have no preconception that I'd like to see you be or do. I have no desire to foresee you, only to discover you. You cannot disappoint me." – Mary Haskell.

Kerrie, NSW, Australia.

"

Good point! If this is a fundamental truth, and people go on about their business without really looking at what their kids ARE learning, then this could be permission to not put in very much energy on the parents' part. Where do lazy unschoolers come from?

I've known some--one family of four who has all their kids back in school. Only one of the four is there for social reasons--the other three are there because they were so dreadfully bored at home. The mom thought that it was enough for them to just play, because learning is play--right? Maybe that's another one for that list--whatever that list is...truths that taken out of context become platitutdes? That's an awfully long name for a list. <g>

That's the thing about unschooling--everything needs a context, because that's what gives it the meaning. The one-shot phrases don't have enough meaning. It's a very different thing when Sandra says, "kids learn all the time," versus my failed friend!

Joanna

"

Lately, I have felt so overwhelmed with the daily living things, that very little else is happening. I feel like I have to fall back on "kids learn all the time", not because I dont want other things to happen but I feel so overwhelmed with life right now and juggling the needs of four kids.

-=-Lately, I have felt so overwhelmed with the daily living things,
that very little else is happening. I feel like I have to fall back on
"kids learn all the time", not because I dont want other things to
happen but I feel so overwhelmed with life right now and juggling the
needs of four kids.-=-

You have 185 days a year to not do anything cool, but those other 180
should be better than the greatest of school days in all the best ways.

Unschooling means parenting with care and respect. To me it also about
collaboration and love.

I can ask my kids to help load the dishwasher and they will very often, or I
could insist and bring on guilt trips, make less desirable foods, or deduct
allowances. It is really a choice. Presumably anyone who starts with little
choices will continue to relate to their children positively and the
children will reciprocate, as they get older they may smoke or make choices
we wouldn't make for them, but if the present is any indication they will be
receptive to opinions from mom and dad. They will know that people who love
you are repectful and anyone who uses punishment/coercion isn't interest in
a relationship built on mutual respect. That's all they know from people
they grew up with about love, being entwinned with respect:)

The moms who use coercion/guilt/punishment have neater houses, but I have a
connection to my kids based on love and trust. My partner, my kids and l
know one another to be doing our best and so we all are inspired to
contribute more to one another's contentment. Less energy is wasted on
negative things--imagine how hard those mom's are working and how much less
satisfaction!

Ultimately, that's what soured me on tools like NVC--its all about getting
your needs met, rather than assuming everyone is contributing what they
can. If you have an agenda other than honesty, and love unschooling won't
work. More than money and fancy trips unschooling is about connection,
honesty and gentle nurturing parenting. The product of that home(your
child) will know they were loved and cherished and given all possible
opportunities!


Marina

--- In AlwaysLearning@..., Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

I think unschooling can be practiced badly, and there's a growing
numbers of lists and forums to tell people that just having your kids
home is unschooling, and they're learning all the time, so parents
don't need to do anything special but take care of themselves.

For the past month or so I've cringed whenever anyone (even my
favorite people) say "kids learn all the time."

I'm sure there is reams of information about unschooling *not* badly on your website, Sandra -- about parents diving in and supporting interests. I bet Joyce has some goodies on her site, too.

Do you have any of your quick and easy links to pass on here? I'm not quite sure what to search terms to use - I seem to be constantly surprised by the great links shared here because I think I've gone over the sites but I always miss things!

Thanks!

Rebecca